Politics, Websites

FWOTW: CSTNews.com

283 Comments

ctsnews

Buckle up, folks, we’ve got a live one today. Don Boys (Ph.D) is a fundamental Baptist preacher who was also elected to the Indiana House of Representatives, and was identified by the media as the ”most conservative member of the General Assembly.” And with good reason.

His articles include telling us why Jesus Wouldn’t Raise the Minimum Wage and a treatise on whether or not animals go to heaven.

He also runs websites muslimfact.com and TheGodHaters.com.

283 thoughts on “FWOTW: CSTNews.com”

        2. The 3rd question is WHY did you kill the living. It’s fine to do so as long as you needed to or can justify it. πŸ™‚

        3. Rick just learns that ocean’s fine grains & molecules better & better every single episode! πŸ™‚

  4. I posted about this earlier today at the STF forum since a fundy pastor had posted a link to the article about Jesus Wouldn’t Raise the Minimum Wage at Facebook. Talk about twisting Scripture to suit one’s political purpose! I want to check out the other one above about Muslim Facts. As someone who completed a minor in Middle East Studies, I have clearly noticed the ignorance of most fundies in this area. I get so angry and a bit disillusioned when I see those who purport to know and believe the Bible abuse it in this way, and to see that pastor post the link he did, with a supportive statement of his own. Grrr…

    2. Let us know whether or not Mr. muslimfact.com has any correct knowledge about Islam at all.
      I’m scared to look at that site, myself.

    3. I left a rather lengthy comment on that article pointing out that minimum wage is not a living wage. Nobody making minimum wage can support themselves without public assistance. And his idea that employers give raises based on merit is hopelessly idealistic and wrong. I feel like this is someone who has not worked in the workforce for a very, very long time.
      Jesus would make sure his employees could eat and buy sufficient clothing and have a roof over their head. Which is nothing close to what minimum wage accomplishes.

      1. Minimum wage jobs aren’t supposed to be “living wage” jobs…they are for teenagers in the summer. (super simplistic, I know)

        Your contention that “Jesus would make sure that his employees could eat and buy sufficient clothing” is nearly as foolish as the fundies notion that Jesus “wouldn’t raise the minimum wage.”

        2. 88 percent of those in minimum wage jobs are over 20. 55 percent are women.

          If the minimum wage had kept pace with inflation so nice it was first established, it would be $22.00.

          Businesses abroad (EU, Australia) comparable to at hose in the U.S. That pay minimum wage pay far, far more than we do and are still highly profitable.

          And if you think Jesus would be okay with families in desperate need as we have today, your Jesus is a fake.

        4. Somehow, as misinformed and fundamentalist as I was in my youth, I never devolved to the level of nastiness that many of the fundy trolls here demonstrate.

          Perhaps it was because I had felt the sting of cruelty that I didn’t want to inflict it on others.

          I don’t know. But I do know that a God who is unconcerned about the plight of the poor is a worthless entity. What good is the promise of salvation in the hereafter if God has no power to save in this life? What guarantee is there of justice in the afterlife if God only sides with the rich in this life?

          I notice that in the beginning to Israel, God promised physical blessings for obedience. Unfortunately, it seems as if that promise was hard to keep. Promises of blessings kept being pushed further away to prophesies of a future time to keep hope alive while blessings on those who were faithful were continually postponed.

          Finally, in the New Testament, all pretense of physical blessings in the here and now for obedience have been abandoned. All blessings in the here and now are spiritual. You get blessed when you die and go to be with the Lord.

          If I were cynical, I might say that was a religious/cultural admission by the writers of Scripture that God wasn’t powerful enough or interested enough to keep his original promises. Sure, they blamed people for their faults and weaknesses and sins. Anything to renege on the bargain.

          Similarly, what gives with even God’s ability to change the hearts of those He “saves” to be conformed to the image of His Son? More and more I see those who claim to be saved acting completely contrary to how Jesus acted, even disrespecting the life of Jesus as being of no value and focusing entirely on His death.

          If God cannot save a person from their sins in the here and now, there is no guarantee that they will be saved after death. Or, to take what Paul said and turn it around, If in the afterlife only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

        5. “Minimum wage jobs aren’t supposed to be β€œliving wage” jobs…they are for teenagers in the summer.”

          Please tell that to all the U.S. businesses paying minimum wage, or just slightly above, to millions of adults with year-round jobs.

        6. I agree. Tell that to my son-in-law, who is having trouble getting anything above minimum wage, despite being 35, having a decent employment record, skills, a degree, and a wife and two little girls to support. Which is why he’s currently here at my place in the big city, 2 hours away from his family, sleeping on a makeshift bed in the living room while he looks for a job here. He could find work in a call center for minimum or maybe min plus ten cents, but you can’t feed children on that.

        7. greg is just confusing his conservative political views with his religious views again. Simpleton.

        8. greg is just confusing his conservative political views with his religious views again.

          Yes, that’s a recurring issue, isn’t it?

        9. As for that, while I don’t remember being nearly so calloused and hard-hearted as greg’s statement about Jesus, I found mixing of the political viewpoint with the religious view a given during my time in fundamentalism.

          It was an appeal to fear of communism that formed the basis for pre-tribulation Rapture, literal millennial kingdom doctrine. This was, without doubt, the primary doctrine of fundamentalism during the 1970s. You could disagree on salvation and eternal security, but the Kingdom was Baptist doctrine, Plymouth Brethren, Seventh Day Adventist And Jehovah Witness.

          All agreed that the political system was under the influence of the devil. Any proposal for social reforms had to be Satanic, Socialism and communism were regularly conflated, businessmen were godly, workers were greedy and all wrongs would be made right when Christ comes back.

          Conservatives only felt the impetus to resist change so things wouldn’t get worse. “Occupy until I come!”

          Of course, businesses loved this philosophy. They poured money into para-church organizations opposing environmental laws (Jesus will fix it all when He comes!), workers’ rights (Authority is from God!), women’s rights (ditto) and from there to birth control and abortion.

          Positive changes were accompanied by gloom and doom predictions based on the Word of God. “Rights of the People” was a Laodicean heresy. Giving blacks the vote and integration was a disaster waiting to happen because they were under the curse of Ham. We were defying God!

          Conservatives held a dim view on the nature of man. The loved their Freedoms–but only Their Freedoms, not anyone else’s. They increased punitive policies–and the church backed them. The War on Drugs was a War on Minorities, intended to cull the vote and alienate the population. That many more drugs were found in the homes of rich white people was admitted, but nothing changed. Racism was profitable to churches as rich whites gave generously to promote it.

          …

          And I could go on, but I need to stop for now.

          The point is that greg s firmly part of a well-financed and organized system of thought. Fundamentalism as it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. I was a part of it. Puke.

        10. You clowns didn’t pay very good attention to the previous SFL post:

          1. You dehumanize and devalue those who disagree with you. …..check!
          2. You have no friends who challenge your point of view….wouldn’t consider any of you friends…so, check!
          3. Winning arguments is more important to you than kindness……definite check!
          5. You still see political might as the way to bring in heaven on earth…..ABSOLUTELY CHECK!!
          7. Dissenting opinions cause you almost physical pain. …hilarious check!
          8. The stories you repeat don’t have to be true as long as they’re advancing the right cause….check!
          9. You have a hard time believing anything negative about the leaders of your movement…..Definite check!
          10. Ostracism is still your default method of punishment…..HELLO…Check!

          Probably the funniest thing is most of you won’t even recognize yourselves,,,,,Because you’re always RIGHT!

        11. I will not feed the trolls. I will not feed the trolls. I will not feed the trolls. I will not…..

        14. The thing is I know that an argument with a fundy troll is going to end with zero satisfaction because no matter how well reasoned and reasonable an argument anyone presents, the fundy will never admit to anything but total right. The end is determined before the beginning because a fundy’s reason is non-existent. Therefore, whenever I can restrain myself, I do not feed that particular troll. It hurts though.

        15. I know. I know. Your right. (Hangs head in shame)

          (Looks up and grins) But it is fun watching them make utter fools of themselves, isn’t it?

        17. greg, you exhibit the rage of a man taken in a fault, knows absolutely that he has been caught without excuse, yet must thrash and flail around trying to spread the blame. “Yeah, so what if I am wrong? You guys are too!”

          That is a nasty little habit that will certainly lose friends and influence people — against you.

          I do have to fight against fundamentalist tendencies. But the facts exist and I will follow them. People are important. I believe Jesus showed far more compassion to others than you showed in your post.

          Ask yourself what there was in your post that in any way honored God the Son or respected people trapped in low-wage jobs. And what makes you think people shouldn’t be outraged by your inference that Jesus wouldn’t care about His employees’ suffering?

          I get the idea that you are young and foolish. I also get the idea that when you are older, you will regret much of your impetuous behavior. I know I do.

        18. I’m still trying trying to work out if Greg is deliberately trying to be provocative of if he really is just a reactionary asshole who genuinely believes what he says….

        19. Paul, it took me a while to convince myself, but I’m pretty sure he genuinely believes it.

        20. greg,

          Sometimes when “EVERYONE” but Fox News and their acolytes say something, it’s because it’s true and Fox News has been lying to you to experiment with how gullible you are.

        21. People like Greg are the price we have to pay for Freedom of Speech. He has as much right to his opinions as I have, or anybody else. He has the right to be wrong. All of us are wrong about something. I think I have got things more often than I get them right. It is very disturbing to realise that many of your most cherished beliefs are way off-beam. I hope I am learning and growing. I hope we all are. You live and learn, they say. Fundies like Greg, unfortunately, tend to just live

        23. greg commented You are ALL still fundies, you just changed teams!

          Well, I dispute the idea that I am still a fundamentalist. But there is No Doubt that I have changed teams.

          I made the right choice.

        24. I’ve always played for the other team. Oh, wait, that’s not what we were talking about…

        25. greg. Confusing disagreement with persecution since 2010.

          Josh, in case you are interested, greg is still in the closet. You might want to take him on as a project. If you know what I mean. πŸ˜‰

  5. Too bad we didn’t have time machines. I’d like to send him back to the olde times he obviously prefers. He is dangerous crazy.

    3. Ok I read the article and saw this:

      An adult man who seduces a teenage girl
      should not get away with, β€œI’ve made a
      mistake,” or β€œI’ve done wrong.”

      What happened was rape not seduction. Yes, Mr. Boys says what happened was wrong and it should be dealt with but he is still not willing to call it what it is. Plus, he talks very little about how we should help the victims. In typical fundy fashion yhe focus is how to deal with the abuser and not how to help the abused.

      I can, in my mind, give him a partial pass because he does make an effort to hold the abuser accountable. However, a pass in one area certainly does not cover up the mountain of craziness that he supports and promotes.

      1. I agree completely. He should be held accountable for all the crazy stuff he writes. I also acknowledge that when the news broke about the vile and perverted Bob Gray, he was almost a lone IFB voice calling out how badly this was being handled by Messer, David Gibbs, and all Gray’s tacit supporters. He believed the victims (at least) during a time when almost all IFBs refused to.
        For all I know of him, this might have been the only good thing he has ever written – but it was timely and helpful.

  7. So God is angry according to entry on the site because of a lack of separation and rejection of Bible teaching but the very next article down is about dropping pig poop on Mecca if America is attacked? I guess that whole “love your enemies” and “giving your enemy your shirt when they ask for your coat” and “blessed are the peacemakers” teachings in the Bible are ok to be rejected?

    1. No no no, you see, those are just spiritual metaphors. Jesus really meant that we should give others the gospel abundantly, including our enemies, because what else do we have to give? Physical comfort? Peace? Psh, we’ll all be Raptured next week anyway.

      1. cuz for fundies–Jesus’ teachings are not part of the Gospel…the Gospel is only the Roman Road for them….sigh. Thanks for reminding me.

        1. Also, when you spiritualize things, it’s a lot cheaper. You can feed, clothe, house, and generally care for a “soul” for a lot less money than you can the rest of the person.

        2. This ‘spiritual comfort’ is all I ever learned of Jesus in the peebs. Every single word was said to be inspired and meant something spiritual not simply what it said. They search and search the scriptures until they are threadbare and worn and without warmth or comfort.

        3. Talking about the life and ministry og Jesus, i sometimes go to a baptist church on Sunday evenings and a while back they did an interesting series on the Gospel of Luke, with she odd title “More Than A Comma”This comes from the Apostles Creed which says “…..born of the Virgin Mary” – comma – “suffered under Pontius Pilate….”. What About all the stuff that happened ex in between? Was 33 years of life and ministry little more that a punctuation mark? It was a fascinating study.

  8. I’ve been mostly al lurker here for while, and there’s a few few things I haven’t been able to figure out. What does FWOTW mean? Can someone help me out? And who’s George?

    1. George is the gremlin who messes with our grammar and spelling….if you make a mistake as you type, blame George.

      1. George lives in keyboards and he loves to muck up my typing in the seconds between when I click on “Post Comment” and when the comment appears on the site. He loves “Stuff Fundies Like” because there is no way to edit a comment after it has been posted here.

    2. Lol, Wilfried, George is the one who changed your “a” to “al”. He is responsible for all typos. FWOTW I believe means, Fundy Website of the Week.

      1. Fundy Website Of The Week.
        Although they don’t technically come up at a rate of exactly one a week.

        1. Although they don’t technically come up at a rate of exactly one a week…… Hey Fundies can make wild claims, why can’t SFL, lol

        2. It should not be assumed that there is a fundy website to be had every week. It is just that this particular week we are blessed by one.

          Let’s not be greedy about this. After all, some blessings should be rationed out lest we be unable to handle such richness.

          Sorta like rich chocolate. Eat too much of it and you get sick. Too many FWOTW and well, you get the picture.

    3. Lol – FWOTW in google brings up SFL posts – Darrell’s original I guess! George causes typos, but not sure of his backstory

        3. Um, There’s no such thing as a white piano – there is a scientific consensus on this fact and no need to debate any further

        5. Captain solo speaks the truth in love, and the white piano believers should heed his wisdom.

          RE: the origin of George, it was DON who brought his little friend George with him when he would post way back when, and George decided he liked it here, and started visiting the rest of us.

        1. At first he only revealed himself to Laird Donald, but has since chosen to hang out with anyone on SFL who likes Dayton, Ohio, a diet consisting of only cold beer, and women gently stroking their hair and saying “poor poor thing”

          (This kind of thing goes on in the SFL cockpit all the time BTW)

        3. George seems to like hanging around my keyboard a lot. Him and his twin brother Otto Korrekt.

  9. oh and you have to love the fundy logic–if President Obama is so interested in letting Muslims have freedom of religion and supports them building a mosque near ground zero in NY, then President Obama should help build a church in Mecca. There is not a big enough brick wall for me to bang my head against.

    1. Ground Zero is, of course, equivalent to Mecca, being the holiest site in all of Christianity. Who knows what we did before the terrorists attacked? We should thank them for giving Christians such hallowed ground. /s

      1. Ground Zero is the equivalent to Mecca for USAmerican Christianity. Perhaps this is another case where they married Christianity with the idol of patriotism.

        1. I find it very disturbing how the cult of “nine eleven” has been made into a national religion.

        5. I agree. I actually really liked the idea of making 9/11 a national day of service – I support the idea of taking something tragic and terrifying and making it a day to reach out and strengthen bonds in our communities. Too bad that hasn’t caught on more.

  11. Ok, so his PhD might be real, but from a fake school. Looking at the book link, he published “Pilgrims, Puritans and patriots.” Amazon has it, but no reviews. The description says “Our Christian Heritage: This book was the basis for the author’s Ph.D. dissertation and basically deals with colonial history. One leading American editor said of this book: “The amount of information in this book that is not in a typical history book is astounding.” What is hilarious is the assertion that “ONE LEADING AMERICAN EDITOR” said that. People do that when they are referring to someone who is unknown and edits their own books. He probably said it.

    1. β€œThe amount of information in this book that is not in a typical history book is astounding.”

      You could say the same thing about “The Protocols of the Meetings of the Learned Elders of Zion.”

      2. That was close to my first thought! I was thinking if there’s that much in there that doesn’t exist anywhere else, you might have skipped a few fact checking/authenticity verification steps along the way in your eagerness to reveal your new “historical” narrative.

        I wonder what the founders of the country & patriarchs of the faith would think of their fan fiction?

  12. I’ve lived in the Indianapolis area most of my life and have never heard of this guy before. It took me a long time to research former members of the Indiana representatives before I found out any information on this guy. This bozo only served for 2 years in the Indiana House (76 – 78) and represented a small county in central Indiana (south of Indianapolis). There was no additional information on his service during his term, so I have a feeling that he had zero impact on any legislation during that time period due to his short stay. As to his claim of being the “most conservative member of the assembly” – I have a feeling that this is self inflated hype on his part (i.e. legend in his own mind). He wasn’t elected long enough to really have any impact.

  13. He entered Moody Bible Institute immediately after high school, was married and continued his education at Tennessee Temple College, Immanuel College and Heritage Baptist University where he earned his Ph.D.

        1. Most fundies who claim the title ‘doctor’ either have an honorary doctorate, or have an ‘earned’ doctorate from an unaccredited school, which doesn’t count for anything.

  14. Dr. Boys has been a guest on β€œCrossfire”; β€˜β€™Sally Jessy Raphael” (twice); the β€œJerry Springer Show” (three times); the β€œMorton Downey, Jr. Show”; β€œNBC Nightly News”; β€œCBS Morning News”; the β€œChristian Television Network (three times); and many cable shows. He has also appeared on well-known radio shows such as the β€œJack Anderson Show”; the β€œPat Buchanan Show”; the London β€œBBC; the β€œABC” radio network, etc.

      1. Jerry Springer, Sally Jessy Raphael, AND Morton Downey, Jr. is sort of a trifecta of daytime TV perfection.

        Too bad most of those programs he mentions haven’t been on for many years (especially the ones whose hosts are deceased).

        Did you hear about when I was on the Ed Sullivan show, and in “Look” magazine?

  15. To his credit, he is quite forceful on his condemnation of predator preachers

      2. Even a blind squirrel has something worthwhile to offer on the grand scheme of things – unlike Boys

    2. I would ask who doesn’t he condemn?

      The web page reads like so many conversations I have gotten roped into in fundy circles. There is never any pleasant discussions. Only disdain and contempt for anyone not in that church. It must be so tiring to be afraid of everything, to hate everyone not just like you.

  16. So fundy land continues to be home to crazies. The good part is that is that to appease their angry God they will build bigger, thicker, taller walls to keep themselves in so that we don’t have to deal with them.

    1. What else…ooh!

      Since I don’t believe in Biblical separation, I also reject basic Bible teachings on salvation.

      Like your mom.

  18. I think what I find most disturbing is the fact that I read this person’s musings for roughly 15 minutes, and am disgusted by the way he passes shear make-believe off as if they are facts. I am also offended by his disregard for logic, critical thinking, and rhetoric, but that is becoming more and more common these days. Cloaking one’s prejudice in religion is nothing new, unfortunately, even for Christians. Thankfully, this guy’s sphere of influence is quite small.

  19. I just read his article about supreme court nominee being a lesbian. He cries that there are no bible believing Christians on the bench even though it’s a significant portion of the country. He says “We have five Catholics, two Jews, a Black, so why not one of us? Anyone want to hazard a guess? Could it be bigotry? “.

    So a black, by definition can’t be a Christian? And he accuses others of bigotry…

      1. Wasn’t it James Watt, when he was Sec. Interior, said something about his staff having a woman, and black, a Jew, a cripple… He was crucified in the press (rightly so, I think), but I don’t recall there being any repercussions. Is it only the right wing that can say something like that and blow it off?

        1. Well, Watt did get shamed into resigning.

          As for this guy, while he did well in sounding the alarm about the Florida Bob Gray; did he say anything about the Hyles/Schaap shenanigans in his own state?

    2. Maaaaaaybe because all the fundies are going to Bible “colleges” and living in bubbles? If you live in a bubble you can’t go to Washington and help change things because you have no real education!

    3. I have questions about that article.

      First, since Clarence Thomas is black, does he not count as Catholic?

      Second, is Justice Sotomayer’s defining characteristic her lady parts, her brown-ness, or her Papism? It’s probably moot, since any one of them would put her out of the club, but I’m curious.

      Third, is the assumption that Elena Kagan must be a lesbian because she’s not married and has no children? I love how these most disgusting examples of the male race assume that the only thing that could tempt a woman away from the righteousness of male attention is. . .female attention? No, an incredible career and a fulfilling personal life full of friends, family and the respect of your colleagues could not possibly be enough for any woman. We all need a penis-bearer to make us truly happy.

  20. From what I can tell on google, Heritage Baptist University became what is now Indiana Baptist College, but they don’t seem to offer a Ph.D., just a D.Min., and that degree is said to be “in development.”

    1. And that is important. Pensacola is a genuine, accredited, reliable, balanced, educational institution…… *I wonder how many lies I can fit into one sentence?*

  22. This webpage has it all! Phony credentials, borderline racism and Kent Hovind too!

  23. In his article about minimum wage, he seems to be confusing gender & racial equality with minimum wage. And he missed the point of the parable. Do fundy preachers ever get the point?

    1. You’re being silly. You sound like you believe the original point of the parable is what the fundy wants to know. But for a fundy, the point of Scripture is to prop up their system of belief and their culture. It does not matter what Jesus meant to the first audience, the meaning in the English for our culture now is the only thing that matters.

    2. Sadly gender enequality is rampant in the IFB. I attended several churches that had K-12 schools and in every case women were paid peanuts (about 125-150 a week) while the men were paid 3 times that amount. They justified it by saying that the men had to support their families while the ladies did it as a ministry. The one exception was the pastors wife made about what the men did, go figure.

      1. Yep. That happened at my fundy high school. One of the teachers ended up suing the school over it. Clearly, she was an unsubmissive, rebellious, feminazi….

      2. Yes. That actually happened to me in my first school. Of course, having graduated from PCC, I didn’t know any better. And now that I know better, the school I taught at has changed leadership and become an excellent – and legal – institute of education. I wouldn’t want to seek any legal action.

      3. My father’s old church let the youth pastor go with like a week’s notice because they couldn’t afford him, but you better believe Mrs. Pastor got to stay on at full salary.

  25. “He would not, yea could not, act contrary to what He has said and what the Scripture requires. The Scripture strongly supports proper authority, ownership, contracts, treaties, pledges, etc.”

    Wow. So Jesus supports coercing people into working for starvation wages! And he loves rich people who have all the power. James would have a field day with him. The Scripture talks about setting prisoners free, clearing debts every seven years, returning property every 50 years. Oh, and lending without interest! But that is “Law,” not Grace. Got to give grace to those rich contributors, you know.

    Of course, he doesn’t know what the Scripture requires. Not really. “What does the Lord require of you, but to do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with your God?” Nothing humble, just, or merciful about him.

    People like him almost make me wish I could believe in Hell, or at least Purgatory.

    1. Even if you don’t believe in Hell or Purgatory, don’t you at least believe in a Day of Wrath when God renders to every man according to his deeds?

      That right there is enough to take care of a lot of this stuff.

    3. We might suspect that if Mr. Boys were to change his position and recommend a minimum wage based on what he felt were “biblical principles,” he might use Matthew 20:2 for a “proof text”:
      “And when he had agreed with the laborers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.”

  26. Piffle. Since “Dr.” Boys hasn’t been there to look and back to tell us, I see no reason to believe that dogs, cats, and other critters don’t go to heaven, no matter what he says—particularly since my dog is a much better dog than I am a person. He deserves heaven; for me, the jury is still out.

    1. It always amazes me how fundies speak with certainty on subjects where certainty is impossible. There is no humility among them.

      1. Agreed. And since there will be trees in heaven, why not animals?

        Or will it all be cold stone? If the precious gems the city is made of are so common, they won’t be precious any more.

        Fundy certainty is a way of putting God in A Box. And if you have God In A Box you can control Him and everyone else.

        1. We know there will be white horses right? I look forward to finding out if they once trod earthly soil.

        3. There is also a reference to a lion laying down with a lamb and a child and children handling vipers…..so there seems to be evidence of animals in the world to come…..I guess Dr. Boys has something against animals that are part of this world getting a free pass into the next. Animals haven’t had to abstain from alcohol, go to church and follow all those fundy doctrines….How dare they get in easier than Dr. Boys himself.

      2. That’s a pretty good definition of a Fundamentalist: A person who speaks with certainty on subjects where certainty is impossible.

      3. Next up on the agenda of serious theological issues for Mr. Boys to weigh in on– “How many angels can sit on the head of a pin?”

        3. well since every theological musing is a fundamental to a fundamentalist, knowing even the most meaningless thing about a topic we have no evidence for or certainty, he probably does have a theology about angels and pins.

    2. I don’t understand why people so firmly believe that God created animals only to destroy them.

      I can see my cats and cavies in heaven long before I can see any self-important, self-righteous fundamentalist there.

      1. Yes. Same thing with people. Why do fundamentalists think God created people He intended to torture for ever and ever just for existing?

        It makes God to be a Monster.

  27. This is like The Drudge Report for people who think The Drudge Report is satanic and liberal.

  28. Dang! I just realized that I heard him speak a revival at my old IFBC. It was probably 15 years ago. I bet I have his book somewhere.

  29. Those Hoosiers just really get what it means to be an American, and a Christian don’t they?

    (Apologies to all the good Hoosiers, they are out there, I know).

  30. **sigh** He lives near me. I think I mentioned over in the forums that he was a frequent speaker in chapel services at TTU. He was quite the poster boy for them. Maybe it was his political connections! I vaguely remember him as being angry about pretty much everything, but that was par for the course, so he didn’t stand out to me all that much.

  32. “Ms Kagan, are you more or have you ever been a lesbian?”
    This question confused me. Do people stop being lesbian willy-nilly? Is it just a phase? What a stupid question!

    2. He claims that others don’t have the guts to ask her that question. Actually, they have the professionalism. It’s completely non-relevant to the task at hand, and would be sexual harassment to ask.

      2. So, “Dr.” Boys has the right to question Supreme Court nominees, and apparently he has veto power?

  33. You could tell that the guy raising his fist towards heaven on the cover of “Dr.” Boys’ book is a God hater even if he were just walking down the street. He has a beard and he’s not wearing a tie.

  34. I just scanned through the articles, and I almost lost my breakfast. To begin, no person, not even a real Phd. could be an expert in all of these fields. And, so many of his remarks were misogynist and/or racist, I wonder where he keeps his white hood….

  35. “I was tricked. They told me I was going to be on β€œExtreme Makeover Home Edition.””

    Tammy Faye Bakker took the spotlight that day. Sorry.

  36. One of these enlightening articles br “Dr.” Boys shows his unrelenting fascination with gay sex. Here’s a little excerpt from him for your reading pleasure:

    “Homosexual degenerates are the people who get their thrills by playing in the rectum of other men! It is called β€œrimming” and is so disgusting I refuse to explain it as it was explained to me by a former homosexual bathhouse owner for my book, AIDS: Silent Killer! Shame on Christians?

    Forty percent of homosexuals participate in fisting where a man runs his fist and arm into the rear end of his β€œlover.” Shame on Christians?

    Many homosexuals press objects such as light bulbs, flashlights, carrots, soda bottles, etc., up the rear ends of their β€œlovers.” Shame on Christians?

    Twenty percent of homosexuals urinate on or in their β€œlover.” This is known as β€œgolden showers.” Shame on Christians?”

    1. You can bet your bottom (sorry…) dollar that if he didn’t just pull those stats out of his… uh, rectum, he got them from “research” conducted by polls in gay-themed magazines decades ago. For reasons that I think almost anyone could intuitively figure out, those stats are highly biased toward the weird and extreme.

      Or maybe he made them up based on the jokes that we gay people tell when we think people like “Dr” Boys aren’t around. I’ll break the secrecy and let you in on one… “How many gay men does it take to change a light bulb? One to screw it in, but to remove it, you need a team of ER doctors.” So, yeah, maybe he just doesn’t know that that joke was … a joke.

        1. Fundies are hung up on sex and power. They believe sex to be shameful, even in a committed relationship. They want those who have sex to be under the judgment of God. They want consequences! They want visible consequences! They want anguish and misery.

          And they don’t get it except for the weak ones they can persecute, like single young women. Since these sinners should be under the thumb of their parents, they have to make life tough. They make sure women who are raped have to bear and raise the child of their rapist. And they make getting an education or food help or housing HARD. Lots of traps. They are the hands of God for retribution.

          They never see themselves as the hands of God to lift up the fallen, to bind up wounds, to heal and to care. It is all about deserving, legalism, toeing the line.

          These self-styled “Men of God” don’t have a gospel. They don’t have Good News. Their hearts seem to me to be as empty as the worst “degenerate” they rail on.

        2. He doesn’t have a hamster up his rear end .
          Not enough room with his head there.

      2. Well, plus, there are straight people who engage in all of those, too. (Although I call apocryphal on a lot of those “object/animal in rectum” stories). But no sex act is the sole domain of gay people. I remember watching a video where a pastor in Africa was claiming that all gay men eat poop. He got the reaction he wanted: absolute disgust. That’s what these men want: a reaction.

        1. Mark Driscoll infamously encouraged wives to “submit” to their husbands in oral sex and [if I recall correctly] “back door” sex as well. Most of his not-quite-as-bat-crap-insane compatriots refused to call him out on that, so I can only assume that they’re ok with married straight people doing those things…

          Anyway, as that African pastor demonstrated so clearly, it’s not about facts, the truth, or love, it’s about teaching contempt motivated by disgust.

        3. I have no objection to married couples doing whatever they want in the bedroom, toys, positions, holes, whatever.

          For that matter, I am not going to object to what people do as committed acts of love.

          I am much more concerned about relationships than about physical details. I don’t like cheating. There are different forms of cheating. I don’t like abuse. Abuse should be punished.

          But squabbling over positions and techniques and whatever is putting the focus on the wrong things.

          Many things my wife and I have never done and likely will never do. I would explore just about anything with her to give her pleasure. She isn’t willing. But I want to treat her right.

          I think one of the biggest impediments to treating people right are the multitudes of rules we create to prevent it.

        4. Humankind in general and fundies in particular, have turned something natural into something dirty. Sad.

    2. Don’t forget donkey-punching and Philadelphia steamers. And can’t we get some good numbers on gerbiling? Even though Adam WAS given dominion over the animal kingdom and all that…

    3. Replace the word “homosexuals” with “happily married hetero couples” and his shitty (heh…) rant would be just as true.

    4. Man, my gay friends never tell me anything and this guy meets one former bath house owner and gets the whole homosexual agenda laid out for free? Not fair.

      Side note: I worked in hospitals long enough to know that none of those fetishes are restricted to gay people. This guy would be surprised to find out who comes to the hospital for off-label use of cucumbers. Or. . .maybe he wouldn’t.

  37. Just crack my skull open and tie several sections of my brain in knots and fill the empty space with root beer. Because that’s how I feel right now after checking this out. I just wanna slap people after slapping myself back to sanity.

  38. I don’t know why this guy and other fundies are so concerned about the Emergent Church. To begin with, it’s a sort of movement, not a church; its leadership has been in a state of flux for quite some time, and most fundamentalist laypeople — I dare say most evangelical laypeople, too — don’t have a clue what it is.

    It’s been my observation for a long time that fundies and evangelicals often get all hot and bothered about people, issues, and trends that mattered years ago but are pretty much irrelevant today. Witness the movie “God Is Not Dead.” How many times have the secular media spoken of the Death of God since, oh, 1966 or thereabouts?

      1. They assume everyone agrees with them by now.

        Secularism is mature enough now to have its own fundies.

  39. Preachers need to keep OUT of the bedroom unless its their own. If they were spending more time concerned with their own bedroom rather than whats going on in everyone elses they probably would be so grumpy…they’d be too exhausted.

    1. Yeah, those ignorant nutbags are responsible for several outbreaks of serious childhood diseases, such as measles in my quarters – thus putting at risk of death all the infants too young for a measles vaccine. Selfish and ignorant brutes.

      1. Glad to see this opinion expressed here! My super dumbass fundy sister is not vaccinating her children because “vaccines gave her husband’s nephew autism.” Bullshit. The real reason they don’t vaccinate is because they don’t have health insurance and she is embarrassed to go to the local free/welfare clinic because my dad is a doctor in town.

  41. I checked out the godhaters site. The subtitle of his book mentions “shallow scholars”. Keep that in mind.

    As I glanced over the page I saw an offer to download 80 pages of PDF goodness of his book. Then another chance to get FOUR CHAPTERS. Hmm.

    Maybe it’s just me, but for a book that mocks shallow scholarship I expect more than an average of 20 pages a chapter.

    1. Lady Semp, maybe these are two separate offers and those first 80 pages are the bibliography.
      You ever notice that a lot of times thing’s aren’t as funny after you write them downdown! ?

        1. Reading other people’s typing mistakes is, undoubtedly, far more amusing and edifying than what Boys has published.

        2. Reading wallpaperwould be more edifying than reading anything “Dr” Boys has excreted.

    1. When you twist that which is shameful so that it sounds like a truth, there is no need to hang your head in shame….instead you flaunt your ignorance and hold yourself as judge, executioner and jury over those who are shocked by your comprehensive lack of human decency.

  43. At the risk of stirring up trouble here, there are also supply and demand issues that favor the employer– especially when it comes to “unskilled” or “low skilled” labor. I’ve worked side-by-side with immigrant workers and I wouldn’t want either them or their families forced to leave the country. Thing is, when you have people in desperate economic circumstances and with strong work ethics competing for low paid jobs, it’s going to make things tougher for those unskilled workers who were born here. Seriously, who would you want to hire for a manual labor job,
    a man in his forties who risked his life crossing the desert in order to get work, or an 18 year old American kid just out of high school?

    In any case, whether a person supports open borders, a moratorium on immigration, or any policy in between, we’re going to see continued exploitation and continued illegal immigration as long as the government refuses to, in any meaningful way, punish exploitative employers or purveyors of forged documents. To be honest, I think few elected officials of either party genuinely care either about undocumented workers or lower income, native born workers. Those guys do care about being re-elected, however; and the owners of mid-sized and large businesses are better able to write checks than the poor. And those business owners don’t want anyone tightening the spigot on their supply of cheap labor.

    Sorry for the rant and for injecting politics into the discussion.

    1. I agree with your assessment. An unholy alliance has formed around the issue of illegal immigration. The hard left wants an unending supply of potential voters and the hard right wants an unending supply of cheap labor. It is, of course, more complicated than that but at it’s core, a broken immigration system serves the interests of the power structure.

    2. Great observations and very true. I moved a few years ago from a sanctuary city to the Republic of Brownbackistan (well, I live next door in Missouri, but I cross the border for work every day – it’s a sad day when Missourians think your governor is a right wing bigot).

      The biggest thing I noticed here was that people don’t even feel conflicted about voting to arrest and deport illegal aliens on Tuesday, after having picked up a few guys at the Home Depot on Saturday to paint their house. They even laugh about it. Meanwhile, they’ll complain and curse “those illegals” who come here and steal jobs and make it so their cousin Billy Bob can’t hold a job. But when it comes down to their own wallet, they’re damn well not paying the kind of wages a tax-paying worker needs to survive.

      1. There is a similar situation here in Northern Ireland with the huge influx of people from Eastern Europe, mainly Poland, but also Lithuania , Bulgaria and Romania. Many local people are not happy about that “those dirty furriners” are taking “our” jobs. But they are willing to work at menial jobs for what we would consider to be low wages – but are better than “high-paid” jobs back home – and they work *very hard* indeed. Of course there are some spongers who take advantage of the benefits system here, but probably the proportion is probably less than among the local population. The people who complain about “those foreigners taking our jobs are the one who would feel it is beneath them to take the jobs that the foreigners are willing to fill.

        1. I see that as well. Very few Americans are beating down anyone’s door to serve as housekeeping or other menial labor positions. But many Americans like to claim the reason the job market is so thin is that there are foreigners “taking our jobs.” Let’s be clear that those foreigners aren’t getting office jobs, or union jobs.

          Side note: I didn’t know you were in Northern Ireland. I visited a few years ago and loved it. Can’t beat the scenery, and I had a blast meeting the locals.

  44. I sort of skipped this post because my work often results in my having significant contact with state and local politics and I see more than enough conservative crazy there. Lest anyone think this website is merely the rantings of a fringe crazy preacher, please understand that there are elected officials in places of high power across the country who hold almost all of these views, at least in private.

    I actually had a former legislator tell me the other day: “You know, Republicans are the best party because they have the right ideas. The problem is that they don’t care about people like the Democrats do. But it’s more important to have the right ideas.” Wow.

    American political conservatism (which has no relationship to classical political conservatism, btw) is in fact a religious movement, as several have noted in the comments above. It is nothing more than the American political cult. It’s only a matter of time (some would say that time is here already) when heretics from the religious orthodoxy of American conservatism face officially-sanctioned persecution and even death at the hands of politico-religious zealots. We just commemorated the 20th anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing here. They say the militia movements that gave rise to the bombing were also the foundation for the Tea Party movement. Enough said.

    1. Civic religion coopted Christianity at least by the 70s, probably earlier than that, but by the 70s it was quickly becoming a substitute for the denominations & institutions that had not bought in.

  45. Greetings, everyone! This is the husband of Stacy, who was kicked off of here some time ago. I’ve been a lurker for 2-3 years, and this is my first post.

    First off, my wife says she misses you all and she enjoyed the time she had here. She wants to publicly apologize for any hurtful comments. I know her well, and she felt bad about her comments about gay marriage or whatever it was that got her kicked off. She still is conservative, but she wishes to apologize to everyone who she offended. No, she’s not apologizing for being conservative, but for her brusque, insensitive comments she made. As I recall, the last comment she made was about gay marriage and that really offended people on here. Since she has no voice of her own, so she wanted me to publicly apologize ask people to forgive her.
    She was not trying to be rude, but she realizes the flippant manner in which she said it was rude.

  46. This will probably be one of the very few, if only comments I make on here. I don’t have the time or the interest in internet debating that my wife does.

    Let me ask you, in all seriousness, who here is “real” and who of you are here under false nom de plumes and personas? I just could not sit back and let this latest post go by unchallenged. As my wife always used to think, I don’t think this site is full of real people. I find it completely non-plausible that the economic ignorance displayed on this site is really true. Everyone knows that the meme of the radical left of the constancy higher minimum wage does nothing but hurt the poor. Just as The Affordable Care Act hurts the great majority of users, the minimum wage push is truly more cruel because it especially targets and hurts the poor. How can who claims to be a friend to the working poor constantly push these policies that do nothing but but help to destroy the economy? The rich can absorb some of these policies further and longer than others, but the poor are affected the first.

    When LBJ said that, “The gold reserve requirement against Federal Reserve notes is not needed to tell us what prudent monetary policy should be – that myth was destroyed long ago. It is not needed to give value to the dollar – that value derives from our productive economy.” did you you really believe that in ’68? Even though I’m not a liberal Democrat, we can’t place all the blame entirely on the left. Going off the gold standard, which has helped create a global economic debt of untold trillions that will surely implode – probably in our lifetimes – was non-opposed and actually touted by both the left and the so-called right.

    Why is your favorite punching bag, WalMart, the apotheosis of evil in your paradigm, always given revisionist history in that you never mention that Mrs. Clinton was a board member! ?

    The “minimum wage” debate is nothing but an emotional, baseless argument that has been proven time and again to be faulty economic thinking that one wonders why this argument is still even considered a serious platform to hold up for a policy.

    Many of us lurkers do not ever post here because of the radical leftist views posted here making it no fun. But, I will admit, you did draw me in with this one. The “minimum wage” argument is such a fraud and cruel hoax on the poor that I couldn’t help but enter the fray on this one. I’m not a person who blogs much, if ever, so I’m not planning on being a regular poster like my wife was. Sometimes it is difficult to let false economic propaganda, such as the minimum wage argument, go by unchecked. Thank you for the opportunity.

    1. Harold, I assure you that I am a real person. I fell down the stairs yesterday, and I am pretty sure that the pain I’m in today is not imaginary. That said, I have one question for you:

      What color is the sky in your world?

    2. Harold, I assure you that I am a genuine person, of good will and a scholar at that.

      You talk about economic propaganda, but what you believe is nothing but. Prosperous economies — including our own — have proven you can increase the minimum wage and make the economy better for all. None of the doom and gloom the right has shoveled over the several increases in it has ever come to pass.

      You would think in batting 0 for so long they would stop using the same failed arguments.

      My argument is this. How about as Christians we adopt economic and foreign policies based on treating others as we want to be treated? The Right says that’s impossible, but they have never tried it.

      You have the right to your conservative principles. I want to thank you for laying them out. I must say, they do not sound Christian in the least. How the words “conservative” and “Christian” got put together is a mystery.

      Yet I once believed as you do. I thank God I’ve changed.

    3. I am a real person, I can assure you of that. The fact that I’m not here under my full given name is none of your business, and in fact is because people not unlike you and your wife could do real damage to me in real life if you knew my full name. I’m not saying you personally would do that, but there are people just as abrasive as you two apparently have been (I don’t remember seeing your wife around here, but going from your own description…) who would “report” my comments here to my pastor and/or employer at the drop of a hat. So I couldn’t care less what you think of me for not fully disclosing my identity, and you can kindly sod off if that gives you heartburn.

      1. Ever notice that the people who come here and say how awful we are for using pixel names never post their DOB, their SSN, their current and last three addresses, phone numbers, all social media info (email, anonymous blogs, Instagram, FB, Tumblr, Reddit, etc.), marital status, employment status, criminal records, financial institution information, make/model/tag/color of vehicle …

      2. I actually feel that using a made-up name is an act of kindness in my case because what I have written here could upset beloved family members or former church members. I don’t want to be a stumbling block or a needless offense to them so I choose to remain anonymous (or somewhat so).

    4. As for Walmart’s deplorable way of treating its workers plus a bunch of other stuff, the fact that Hillary Clinton was a board member causes many liberal I know no end of mistrust. We see her as too close to big money and corporate interests. For that matter, we see Obama as too close to big money and corporate interests.

      James had a lot to say regarding the Rich, none of which was any good at all. Jesus said it would be harder for a rich man to enter heaven than for a camel to thread the Needle’s Eye. No matter how you wish to interpret it, the fact that so many rich people think they are going to heaven while living sumptuously every day and ignoring the plight of the poor must surely, somehow be considered anomalous, if you believe the message of Christ. Jesus was no champion of the rich, either!

      Mind you, I wouldn’t mind if you decided to participate. You’d give my fingers a workout, provided you ever cared to talk about points of disagreement, not just generalities. I can assure you that I have the skills to keep up.

      But thank you for demonstrating how thoroughly Corporations have captured “conservative” Christianity. Mammon has conquered God.

    5. I am not a real person. I was created by an Internet whiz kid and have no real personhood. Thank you for asking.

      And I for one miss Stacy McAnderson. She was always able to interject a whole lotta crazy into the conversation. Tell her she’s missed, at least by this hologram.

    6. Totally real here, as left as you can get without being a Communist, and damn it I just fed a troll.

    8. Harold – I am real. I am also inflatable. I fly the plane.

      Sorry you won’t be posting much. You seem like such a well-balanced individual with an open mind.

      1. Harold, you sound like you have an open mind, what with the wind whistling between your ears……

    9. Everyone knows that the meme of the radical left of the constancy higher minimum wage does nothing but hurt the poor.

      Everyone? Interesting. That assertion is patently false unless you consider those who disagree to be nonexistent.

      The Republican screed on the minimum wage is that it hurts the poor because the poor are paid too much. It asserts that wages should be lowered and the poor become more desperate and needy.

      I would really like to hear your own analysis as to how getting rid of the minimum wage would help the poor in general and individuals in particular. How would making less be beneficial?

      1. Rtgmath, you’d be surprised how many Republicans talk about the minimum wage as if it is a maximum wage – as if employers aren’t allowed to pay more than the minimum. This also relates to the nonsense idea that the minimum wage makes it harder for businesses to compete – as if the minimum wage is a bar to offering higher wages.

        1. Am I the only one who sometimes gets the feeling that rather a lot of people may be using the “harsh financial situation” simply as an excuse to be plain mean?

        2. Actually, I wouldn’t be surprised at that. That shows their focus on greed because it sure as hell isn’t a maximum wage for *them*.

          The minimum wage is supposed to be a kind of safety net against employer abuses. That safety net has been eroded in all too many ways, and employers are constantly trying to find ways to circumvent it.

      2. rtgmath,
        Isn’t it true that the basic assertion is that when wages go up, so do prices? This is the Republican contention. And this is definitely a debatable point. Don’t get me wrong. I am all for raising the minimum wage. But there are two sides to this issue.
        the Admiral

        1. If everyones’ pay were increased, those gains would be completely offset by the resulting higher prices. The purpose of the minimum wage would theoretically be to help and protect those at or near the bottom.

        2. Admiral, the short answer is that raising wages does increase some costs. But it doesn’t increase all costs and isn’t even the most significant of costs.

          In point of fact, a higher wage can significantly lower certain costs.

          For example, in Denmark a McDonalds worker makes a $20/hr minimum wage, but the Big Mac only costs 35οΏ  more. The stores are actually more profitable than here in the US.

          But higher wages reduce turnover, reducing training costs. The employees tend to have fewer accidents. Efficiencies go up. Employees with better wages also tend to be customers as well.

          On the broader economic level, better-paid employees have access to health care and better food. They don’t get sick as much. They don’t have to rely on the government for supplements. Those things reduce tax burdens.

          The problem isn’t that many employers don’t know these things. It is that they are unwilling to be first to do it, sacrificing short term profits which competitors will collect. And many employers don’t want a better or more prosperous society. They want the gap between rich and poor to increase. They see the poor as unworthy, and they see their rise to the top as indications of how worthy they are. It is aristocratic thinking. They want the poor to suffer. God is judging them.

          If that sounds preposterous, believe me when I say it was. But listen a little bit to the stray comments the Rich make when they think they are not being heard — Romney’s infamous 47% remark illustrates it quite well! You will see that it is all too accurate. They try to make nice for public consumption, but there is nothing nice about them.

        3. It is worth remembering that Henry Ford insisted that his employees be paid enough that they would be able to afford the cars that they were building.

        4. Thank you rtgmath, you said it way better than I could have. At my factory in Grand Rapids, MI we pay much higher than minimum wage, but we still have a hard time retaining and attracting good employees because they can make more at nearby places. Same principle.
          the Admiral

      3. The reasoning behind the claim that the minimum wage hurts the poor, in part, asserts that the productivity of some job seekers would be less than that of the minimum wage if they were given the work. Since the employer is not in business to lose money, the reasoning goes, that individual will not be hired. If, on the other hand, the employer were not required to pay a minimum wage, he might hire that individual at a lower pay rate and, well, something is better than nothing. That person would then be in a position to improve their job skills and at a later time be in a position to command a better salary. Whether you think the evidence supports this idea is one thing, but you could argue from an ethical/theological standpoint that the minimum wage is merely a worker protection law; the same sort of law that in the Old Testament demanded that employers pay their workers in a timely manner and forbade those employers from charging their workers for the cost of replacing tools that were broken in the course of work.

        Not that it carries much weight, but my personal view is that eliminating the minimum wage would put a downward pressure on already employed, low paid workers. As an illustration, at my previous job, there were a lot of hard working, productive guys. The work could be hard, the conditions unpleasant, and the pay was bad. One guy in his mid forties that I worked with had been with the company for five years and had not had a raise in that time. He was an excellent worker and he was making nine dollars an hour.

        Of course, someone receiving a low wage, with few or no benefits, would very likely be using more in public services than they pay in taxes– this in spite of the fact that the actual revenue their work generated for the owner might be fairly high. Naturally (in a case like this) the public would get the bill for the services while the owners would be the primary beneficiaries of the increased profits generated by their publically subsidized workforce. In my opinion, eliminating the minimum wage would make this problem even worse.

        1. Very close Ben. Your mid 40’s friend may have been an excellent worker but if his productivity was worth more than $9, why did no other company attempt to bid him away? Why did he not offer his services to another company that may have given him more?
          Why do people hate on Walmart for their policies but not on the other companies that wouldn’t give that person even that much? Further, Walmart doesn’t force anyone to work there. The fact that their wage package is so frequently accepted means that some people like it no matter who doesn’t like it.
          Would Jesus support increasing the minimum wage? Who knows? It is never recorded (except by Ewan MacColl maybe) that he ever agitated for the government to interfere in the HR departments of existing employers. If anything, His parable pictured individuals and employers contracting individually for wages. Not to say that He wouldn’t, just that since it isn’t recorded or alluded to, it remains speculative to say that He would.

        2. Why do people hate on Walmart? Easy enough. Walmart drove out local businesses who had a smaller stock and selections but higher wages. The owners settled for a livable but lower profit. Money was spent locally. Local manufacturing was supported.

          But Walmart drove prices down. Its model was to reduce shopping to one trip. It shopped overseas for products make in slave labor conditions. It drove out local manufacturing, increasing unemployment. Jobs moved overseas. Quality products were replaced with junk. Money moved out of the local economy, overseas to foreign manufacturers (usually owned by US capital interests) and to the Walton Family. Along with lower prices came lower wages.

          Walmart doesn’t have to force someone to come work for them. In my town they are the only business of consequence. The others have been driven out. If you can’t get a job at Walmart, you won’t get a job, period. They have pretty much evaporated. All the local manufacturers have closed shop.

          It was calculated that a rise in wages to $15 per hour at Walmart would add less than 2% to the prices.

          No, that gentleman making $9 per hour was giving his employer large profits they refused to share with him. Prices went up, but his wages did not — resulting in theft of real income from him.

          In the economy where there is a large income gap between rich and poor, unemployment is engineered to help keep downward pressure on wages. Walmart’s pricing and buying strategies helped engineer local unemployment so it could lower wages. It was a deliberate act, very cruel. Yet by “providing jobs” in a marketplace it had restructured to suit itself, it could trumpet itself as being a good corporate citizen. And people, with short memories and desperate circumstances, believe.

        3. Joshua, in many areas, jobs like those at Walmart are simply what is available, especially for younger workers or those with little experience. And it has been proven that Walmart has regressive policies regarding pay raises and promotions.

          One of my students worked for Walmart for a time, when her husband was stationed in Texas- it was what was available for an Army wife who moved around a lot. She said that in her new employee packet were application forms for food stamps and Medicaid.

          If employees aren’t paid enough to live on, the tax payers will make up the difference. Frankly, I’m not crazy about that latter- in effect, the tax payers are subsidizing the employers.

          To my view, if you can’t afford to pay a living wage to your employees, you can’t afford the costs of being in business.

        4. “Your mid forties friend may have been an excellent worker but if his productivity was worth more than $9, why did no other company attempt to bid him away?”

          Good point as well as a fair question, Joshua. On a side note, my former co-worker did end up leaving the company. But getting back to the main point, the amount of revenue he generated for the owners was certainly well in excess of $9.00/hr. The thing is, while no company is going to hire someone who results in a revenue loss, in general, they are still going to pay their workforce as little as they can get away with. This brings us back to supply and demand. Let’s, just for sake of argument, imagine a company paying $9.00/hr. to a worker who adds $20.00/hr. to the company bottom line. If there is a surplus of people who can supply the same value for the same price, that company will likely not pay one nickel more than $9.00 to that worker. We have, in my opinion, a deliberately broken immigration system that, among other things, virtually guarantees a perpetual glut of manual laborers.

        5. Yes, they will pay as little as they can get away with. And we all desire to receive as much as we can get away with. We know that demanding too much results in no job, and they know that offering too little results in no employee or worse, a negative value employee. It is a two-way street. I sympathize with people who live in areas of few job opportunities. However, we cannot ignore that when people stay in that area, they are tacitly admitting that their circumstance in total is preferable to any other circumstance of which they could avail themselves.
          I am not going to fault a company for being more efficient than their competitors. Walmart was once a single store as well. They did not drop from the sky already the behemoth that we currently know. They had the same level of resources that every other store had. Their advantage was Walton’s business plan. His plan prospered because it gave consumers what they wanted more effectively than competing businesses. So now, we spend a smaller % of our disposable income on the same goods we bought before which leaves more money to spend in other ways.
          Netflix and on-demand killed Blockbuster and local rental places. Does anyone want to go back to the days of having to drive to blockbuster and pay too much for a scratched DVD?

        6. Joshua, let’s say a couple with four kids owns a house. Let’s say the wife’s job as a teacher’s aide with the school system is axed because declining enrollment forces budget cuts. Let’s say the husband is disabled from an injury at a previous job and can no longer work. Your area is rural; 80% of the manufacturing jobs are gone and aren’t coming back. Ever. You already get some forms of government assistance.

          Now, two kids are in high school and heavily involved in sports. The other two are in junior high and involved in Scouts and 4H. Much drama will occur in moving. Not an insurmountable obstacle, but teenage angst is hard and it is real.

          They need to pay the mortgage. If they put the house up for sale, it’s going to be a slow process. People are moving out, not in. Moving is expensive. If the wife finds a job 100 miles away, there are problems. They will need a place to live. Pay rent and a mortgage? Yeah, that’s gonna be tough at $12/hour.

          It’s not always as simple a process as it might appear. Some areas have been economically depressed for decades. If you are already borderline in your own personal situation, it doesn’t take much to make it go south. Individuals are complicated and families even more so.

        7. Man, I need an editor. George, quit hiding my mistakes and go bother Scorpio instead.

        8. “The reasoning behind the claim that the minimum wage hurts the poor, in part, asserts that the productivity of some job seekers would be less than that of the minimum wage if they were given the work. ”

          That reasoning is completely antiquated in light of other investments employers make today in their business. It is almost as if that argument assumes there is no infrastructure, no leadership or training and no customers.

          Employment is not about going around to gather straw, dig mud with your hands and make bricks free-form. Nothing occurs in a vacuum. Business today is not about craft, but delivering a fully-researched set of preprogrammed and machine-made products with certain variations included to satisfy different tastes. The market has been fully studied. Advertisement has been built in. Profit is nearly guaranteed. A company only loses money if the product it delivers is outdated or crappy and other companies are selling newer and better. It isn’t the individual employee.

          The employer loses money if they don’t have bodies to run the machines, get the food from the freezer, or say “Do you want fries with that?” Today, computers do a lot of the work of scheduling so that the penny-pinching employer can have just enough people on shift at any time. And profit reports for these companies show they are making money hand over fist.

          It isn’t as if the employer is in trouble if an employee doesn’t work out. To modern employers, employees are disposable resources.

          So automated are the processes that when major companies shift from one system to another, they fire thousands of employees at a time. That is not a productivity issue.

          Productivity over the years has gone through the roof, even for the less-skilled employees. The profits from this increase are not being shared with the workers. The gap between the rich and the poor accelerates apace.

      4. You do not understand Economics on a federal Level. Maybe math, but not Economics or Financial Policy.

        1. I would disagree with you on that. But that’s okay. You can have your delusions.

          I am actually decently educated from more perspectives than you know. Perpetual student.

        2. Actually, Robert Reich and Paul Krugman- who most certainly *DO* know about economics on a federal level- also agree that the minimum wage must go up, for many of the same reasons that rtgmath listed, as well as others.

        3. Yeah, I have lots of education too, many degrees. But that doesn’t mean I know anything.

        4. Yeah, but being an honest person, you think you know. And so do I.

          And in the world of Economics, there are multiple positions by people who really do know what they are talking about generally. Differences of opinion don’t mean those you disagree with don’t know anything. It isn’t as if people have kept track. Why some experts featured by Fox News have never been right in their life in their economic predictions, but still have a cushy job and are considered knowledgeable.

          So if we are going to disagree, we might as well put personalities aside and discuss particulars. Don’t you think?

        5. You oversimplify the argument, and you buy the liberal minimum wage argument that if you just pay people at the bottom of the scale more, their actual income level will rise. Not true. Over time, it will not.

        6. And you buy into the conservative minimum wage argument that you can pay poor people less and they will be better off for it. That isn’t true.

        7. Who said anything about personalities, or foxnews? Did I say anything about you personally, other than you don’t understand Economics on a federal level?

        8. Sigh. Telling me that I “don’t know” is a “personality,” an attack (even if mild) on the person, not the argument itself.

          Grief. Since you have the multiple degrees, I assume you have the language skills to comprehend.

          Policy I will discuss. Don’t stoop to telling me what I know or don’t. Yes, I am a liberal. That does not make me wrong. Being a conservative does not make you right. Attacking the person or building a straw-man to knock down does your position no good and does not win the argument.

          We can reason politely.

    10. I’m a real person. This is also my real name. Am I lying to you? Yes. But don’t take my word for it. Do your own research, and you’ll see that I’m telling you the truth. Don’t trust anyone, including me. Heed my instructions and don’t make the same mistakes I did. Trust me.

    11. Also, the ACA hurts the majority of users because the majority are healthy and didn’t pay much in the first place. But it helps tremendously those who are sick. I’m not sure how this equates to you claim that minimum wage hurts the poor. Here’s a quick summary of what it actually does. I’d like to know how this applies to dangers of minimum wage increase, if you’ll be so kind to explain.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8n8gYVdThg

  48. Harold, you write as if your wife Stacy isn’t dead or totally inert, is there a reason she can’t post here–perhaps under a slightly different name?

  49. I went to a small city in New Mexico and Wal-Mart was just about the only department store there. No Target, no Sears, didn’t even seem to be any other grocery stores of reasonable size.

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