Standards

Secondary Separation

199 Comments

“If it is safe not to run with the wrong crowd, then it is safer not to run with the crowd who runs with the wrong crowd.” ~ Jack Hyles

How to be Completely and Totally Separated in a Few Easy Steps

Step 1: Hey, that guy is a godless liberal heathen. I’m going to separate from him!

Step 2: Hey, you are friends with that godless liberal heathen guy. I’m going to separate from you too!

Step 3: Hey, you are friends with that friend of a godless liberal heathen. Guess you’re on my separation list as well!
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Step 6,697,254,041: I’m now the most separated and holy individual on the planet. I also own 28 cats.

199 thoughts on “Secondary Separation”

  1. We learned about this at FU. I never understood how this was supposed to work. When I make a new friend am I supposed to have them and all of their friends fill out a questionnaire?

    Of course, I would have to separate from Jesus since he was the friend of publicans and sinners. πŸ˜‰

    1. “Of course, I would have to separate from Jesus since he was the friend of publicans and sinners”

      oooo!! Apathetic good call…if Jack Hyles would have taken his own advice he would have had to have been separated from Jesus.
      Its amazing how these crazy lies I let seep into my heart and mind from years of this type of out right stupidness seemed bullet proof at the time. It makes me angry that I bought into it.
      Where was my head?

      2. @I am His Beloved, sounds like you have identified “the years the locusts have eaten.” I can relate.

      3. “Where was my head?” I have asked myself that same question many times. I saw things but refused to see at the same time. I was afraid to face up to the fact that I needed to leave everything I knew.

        1. Ò€œWhere was my head?Ò€

          *snicker*
          I have a link for that, butt I have already over used it here. πŸ˜‰

        2. oh and so I don’t sound arrogant, my head was in there for the duration of my fundy days. I willingly overlooked dictatorial behavior, cheap grace and sloppy preaching because it was so drilled into my head that the M-O-g was somehow a superior Christian and was not to be questioned concerning the things of gawd. I not only overlooked bad behavior I enabled (by my pavlovian loyalty to, and for, the M-O-g) criminal behavior. Talk about a Kool-aid addiction. πŸ™„

      4. How did you buy into it? Simple…TRUST. When you’re first saved, you trust ANYONE in your church, especially the Pastor or who whoever the Pastor’s taple collection consists of the most! My first exposure to Hyles was the tape of “Fresh Oil” and “Duty” and I thought the man was almost God or pretty close to Him. Years later when I realized he was a common Man whore, I reassessed my values and decided to pitch the bathwater AND the baby.

        1. Thats the thing Michael and all who responded to this. It seems as if in the process of finding truth I have to relearn everything I know…which brings me to a place of total confusion, craziness and mistrust.
          I struggle with triggers that are set off anytime I hear ” helpmeat” or ” You better be at church everytime the doors are open” and well…a myriad of unexhaustive IFB sayings.
          Top that off with ” well meaning friends” who tell me I’m not living freakin “abundant life” and the “devil has me” along with a decree from the “Pope” to his staff that says, ” Stay away from “His Beloved” at all costs, she is poison and well…I can honestly say I think Im crazy.
          😯
          So..seriously…how to detox? Anyone normal now and healed?

        2. @Beloved, I know for me that I have to stop being such a people-pleaser and so dependant on what people say to me or about me. I serve God Almighty and who are they to judge another man’s servant? (much less GOD’S servant). I try to focus on what the BIBLE says not tradition. When people send those little digs my way, I try not to let them affect me so much by realizing I am accepted and loved in Christ, no matter what others think. I keep remembering Peter where he writes about going with Christ OUTSIDE THE CAMP, and I realize that I am going outside where my old world was but I am going WITH JESUS so it’s OK!

          I also try to have some supportive friends who understand my struggles and accept and encourage me to step out of my man-made box and into the freedom I have in Christ.

        3. @His Beloved
          I am sorry that I cannot help you. I have not set foot inside an IFB church for over a year. I still get flashbacks when I hear some of those same phrases. A few months ago my wife and I visited a conservative SBC church. Many of the same phrases were used that you mentioned. I looked over at my wife about halfway through the service and she was in tears. She told me later that I looked like I was going to cry or have a panic attack. We got up and left right then.
          I have wondered how long it will take us to get over the spiritual abuse. I know that I am not over it yet.

          Sorry, I am not normal now (not that I ever was πŸ˜‰ ) nor healed. However, I do understand what you are going through.
          I am finally getting to where the clips on this site do not make my stomach tighten up and my heart race.

          The other day, while praying, I thanked God that “this” happened. The things I have learned about Him in the last year have been amazing. I doubt that I ever would have learned them if I had not walked away from it all. God has been slowly healing me of the IFB poison but I know that it will take much time for His work to be complete.

        4. how to detox? Anyone normal now and healed?
          irreverant reply: would be be here if we were? 😎

          relevant reply: truth, time and grace. Not to go too deep into psychological babbling but, all that we have been through has produced conditioned response from us. in short: Programming. This programming has shaped our worldviews and has been integral part of our lives.
          Start with Truth. Follow it wherever it leads. Examine it, try to deconstruct it, cross-examine it and were it out (or yourself in the attempt) for “Truth” will stand. God is Truth and no matter where Truth leads God is there. Do not be afraid of “Truth.”
          Time, give yourself time to heal. It has taken this long to to program you with all the triggers and buttons associated with the fundy cult, it will take time to deconstruct those buttons and triggers. (be aware that some of them will be with you for life, and you will have to compensate and mask those you cannot undo.)
          Grace: my favorite. Rest in God’s Grace. Make conscious decisions to not “work” so hard to be accepted, or for favor as the sancitmonious fundy crowd would have you do. Remember if there is no joy in doing something it is not worth doing.

          Just hang in there and heal here with us as many of us journey through the detox and deprogramming process. I’m sure Paul had many of the same issues we do coming out of the legalism of the sect he was in as well. And remember he said he had not attained but was continuing towards the mark, towards the prize.

        5. @apathetic, I’ve hardly ever watched a clip on here. I usually don’t comment on them unless I’m responding to another’s comment because I just can’t will myself to listen to that stuff. πŸ˜•

        6. Flashbacks, triggers and panic attacks. Sounds as if this is common to those detoxing from fundamentalism.
          I thought it was just me…good to know I am not alone.
          I wonder if it is similiar to PTSD? ( Post traumatic Stress Disorder)
          Seriously ..awesome dialogue here. Thanks guys.

        7. @Beloved,
          My dear sister, you are not alone!
          Normal now? Yes – at least more normal than ever before. πŸ™‚
          Healed now? Yes. Oh, to be sure, there are twinges once in a while where the scar tissue is thickest, but I consider myself to be healed at last. It took probably about 5-6 years. The biggest thing about detoxing from the Kool-Aid, is the need to truly spend time meditating on God’s Word and praying. When you try to detox without keeping a very close relationship with God, you end up going too far the other way. I’ve been there. When you are willing to let all else go, and just faithfully spend time with God (and not with your preconceived notions about God or your carefully memorized Fundy interpretations of His Word) and God alone – then you will eventually find true balance and healing.

        8. @ IamHisbeloved
          They did that to you? Told the others you’d worked SO HARD around to stay away from you? I’m so sorry! That’s horrible! But I have to say I’m not surprised, now that I think of it. And I thought it was bad when they counseled a guy not to date me!

          I’m so confused too. A year out, people who know me would never guess how ‘lost’ (in a completely different context) I am.

        9. And, for me, I think finding this blog has been one of the greatest helps in finding my mind again. My husband is awesome, but he didn’t come from the same background and can’t fully understand. As much as I don’t like to admit when I need something, I think I needed SFL.

        10. @I am his beloved

          I met you last year with my wife.

          It took years to break free from fundamentalism. I almost lost my family because of the issues I was dealing with during that time.

          But, thank God I made it out and found truth. The best thing i did was ditch almost every fundamentalist I knew. (You will never be able to talk to them because they don’t listen…they just wait for the opportunity to inform you where you are wrong)

          My wife and I have completely distanced ourselves from fundies and life is amazing without them. There is true freedom in Christ out there, it just might cost a few relationships to find it.

          Good luck on your journey. The fact that you know that there is more out there and the fact that you cannot find peace until you are free is probably the Holy Spirit working in you. When you read the New Testament, He will show you that what you are hearing from fundies isn’t matching up with scripture. It’s a beautiful thing.

          You will probably look back years from now and see God’s hand leading you through this situation. I know I have. He has led me to an awesome church, a Christ centered theology, and to an understanding of the gospel like I have never known.

          God bless you on your journey.

          PS – My wife says Hi.

  2. Wow, Jack Hyles really said that?

    It is sort of the same idea, “Well if your wrong then you are in sin, but if I’m wrong I’m still safe.” I’ve heard that many times about extreme standards. There just isn’t a clear line…and even if there is being further from the line makes you no better then closer. If you are in the right you are in the right period.

    The other fun one is when they do this with music or musicians. Well once this guy sang at a church that also had Amy Grant there, and we know Amy Grant is horrible so this guy must be horrible as well. And if not he is guilty by association.

      1. Funny stuff….but REAL Fundamentalists don’t have cats, remember?

        Cats are of the devil.

        πŸ™‚

        3. Actually, it’s dogs that are regarded as unclean in the Bible. Every mention of dogs in the Bible is unfavorable.
          Cats are not mentioned in the Bible at all (unless you count lions), which leaves us free to imagine anything we want about where they line up on the good vs. evil spectrum.

        4. I’m just jawboning; I like dogs, and I have cats. But if you want to assign moral qualities to an animal (probably an error to begin with), the Bible doesn’t like dogs, but is silent on cats. Neither would be a “clean” animal, since they don’t have hooves, don’t chew cud, eat meat, etc.

        5. I guess I’ll have to ask my cat “if you were to die tonight, do you know where you would spend eternity?”

        6. Jesus is known as the “Lion of Judah.” That seems like an affirmation of felines.

          Ooh, time to start the sermon outline!

        7. Wouldn’t Jesus also be considered from the “Loin of Judah”?

          Can I get another “L” for the alliteration trifecta?

        8. According to Ruckman, Cats ARE of the Devil – and Catholics are addicted to worshipping cats from ancient Babylonian (Egyptian perhaps?) pagan practices, hence the name “Cat – oholic” like Alcoholic”, especially black cats, which are probably demonic offspring from Angels and some kind of feline.

          I actually like Ruckman’s commentaries mostly, but “black is beautiful” is just a weird ass book. David Cloud misquotes it (and is probably the closest most people get to reading it), but the truth is, it’s weirder (and more fun to read) than Cloud makes it out to be.

      2. I didn’t doubt you, but man it is hard to believe. If anyone is curious here is a bit more context. It is actually worse then the one line quote:

        “Now concerning the matter of secondary separation, this is not even the issue. The issue is to be as safe as possible. If it is safe not to run with the wrong crowd, then it is safer not to run with the crowd who runs with the wrong crowd. Let us suppose, for example, that when our oldest daughter, Becky, was dating the young man who is now her husband, her boyfriend came by one night to get her and had with him a friend. Suppose he said, “Brother Hyles, I want you to meet my friend. He is a sex pervert who has just escaped from the mental ward of the state penitentiary. He is going to go with us on our date tonight. ” My daughter would not have gone on a date that night, and I would have told Tim so!

        Suppose he would have said, “Brother Hyles, don’t you approve of me?”

        I would have said, “Yes, Tim, but I don’t approve of your crowd. Now you take the sex pervert home before you take my daughter out, and you sever your relationship with him before you think seriously about my daughter.”

        Now if a person is a Christian, he is my brother in Christ, and I am to be kind to him, but if he is running with the wrong crowd, I will not promote him. I think it not necessary for me to declare the names of those with whom I do not choose to cooperate. I simply quietly use care so that I may stay as far away as possible from sin. Many churches and ministries have died because the pastor and people have not stayed far enough away from death and that which brings death-sin.”

        1. Is he saying he thinks his son-in-law’s friends are “sex perverts”?
          Thank Gid I’m not married to his daughter.

        4. “I simply quietly use care so that I may stay as far away as possible from sin.”

          Then, he must separate from himself as well.

          (I John 1:8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

        5. Eric, you prodded me to look up data on Hyles (I did’t know much about him).
          If even a tiny bit of what I’ve just read is true, Jack Hyles was running a regular farm for repeat sex offenders. Hyles himself apparently confined himself to a longtime affair with his married secretary, but countless proteges of his, including his son, were not nearly so restrained.
          http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/hyles/general.htm

        6. Big Gary,
          It’s true. And there’s more the deeper you dig, not that I’m suggesting that anyone should willingly put themselves through that.

        7. Wow, Big Gary what a find.

          As with a lot of scandals like this the common retort is that it is false. But I’ve always thought that if even a fraction of that is true then it is still pretty damning and horrific.

          It is events like this that really make me question people’s devotion to God. I used to think that if they say all the right things, dress a certain way and read the Bible that they were good and the people who didn’t say the right things didn’t always read their Bible and didn’t always dress properly were bad. But again, if even a fraction of that article is true, well I know plenty of dirty rotten heathens who have more morals.

        8. @Mark, I did too. I naively assumed the people who looked good and talked good WERE good and godly. Unfortunately, there are wolves in sheep’s clothing and whited sepulchres out there.

        9. Concerning Big Gary’s link. What the little section about Dave Hyles doesn’t mention concerning the death of his son is that Daddy Jack got to the coroner within a matter of hours and had the body cremated. That is the only reason that charges were never filed against Dave, due to the lack of physical evidence which just happened to get cremated. Many were the stories that flew around FBCH and Garland, TX about Dave and his sexual escapades going all the way back to when he was a teenager, but those were never proven either until a janitor found a briefcase full of nudie pictures of then Pastor Dave with numerous women that attended the Baptist church in Garland.

        10. Love how Hyles uses a ridiculously exaggerated example – “He is a sex pervert who has just escaped from the mental ward of the state penitentiary” – so his listeners will agree with him, when what he’s REALLY talking about is separating from godly Christian people with whom he disagrees over Bible versions or clothing or music styles.

        11. You know, this sounds a lot like the Rabbinic attitude of the Talmude being the “fence around the written Torah”…if you don’t violate THEIR rules, you won’t violate the written Law. πŸ™„

        12. Concerning Big Gary’s link: I’d be careful with that website if I were you. Yeah, the guy takes on fundies but that’s only because he’s a much bigger fundy than any of the fundies he takes on. He’s so fundy that I’m pretty sure that he’d be the only one going to Heaven if he was right. His definition of discernment is to find something to condemn about everybody.

        13. RE: Big Gary’s link whether fundy or not judge for yourself:

          http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/sof.htm

          His account of creation says earth created in “6 literal solar days”. I think a solar day would be how long it takes the sun to rotate (which I don’t know how long it is, but suspect longer than 24 hours). Basic misunderstanding of science (not to mention Sun not created till day 4 (I think)) = fundy probably + 1,000. πŸ™‚

        14. Oh even better! The link comes full circle as He/they have a doctrine of separation listed on there too, defined as being bother personal & ecclesiastical separation from just about everything you can imagine/want.

        15. That’s an ad hominem attack. I’m not interested in whether the author’s theology or science are right; only in whether he’s right about Jack Hyles.

          Anyhow, it’s far from the only place I found similar charges; it was just the most succinct listing of them I found with a quick search. Type “Jack Hyles sex scandal” into Google and you’ll get the same 786 results I did:
          http://www.google.com/#q=Jack+Hyles+sex+scandal&hl=en&rlz=1R2DKUS_enUS364&prmd=ivo&ei=6A-3TKqcB8GAlAfb0LG7DA&start=0&sa=N&fp=92b55bcb8ad34b32

        16. Oh, I’m not denying his charges or defending Jack Hyles (I actually can’t read a single article, sermon, or book by Hyles without finding something to disagree violently with in the first paragraph). I’m just pointing out the fundy tendencies of jbeard. Many times fundies have legitimate charges against other fundies. Unfortunately, they never seem to realize that the toxicity is within fundamentalism itself and not in any one preacher.

        17. Hyles is despicable, and all kinds of poeple attack. I just checked cause whomever had said it was a fundamentalist, and certainly appears to be a fundamentalist who made an accurate & good critique of Hyles. Not attacking you, just affirming it does appear to be another fundy that did it.

        18. Ok, I have to ask, what, exactly, does he mean by “death-sin”? Is he saying that there are levels of sin, and one is so horrible to cause death?

        19. @Rob M. – the Sun takes about 25 days for one sidereal rotation (the time it takes for a star to appear at the same position in the sky relative to an observer at the surface of the rotating body). That’s at the equator. It’s more like 34 days at one of the poles (since the Sun is not solid). Of course, hardworking Fundie mathematicians will figure out a way to make this jibe with Bishop Ussher’s chronology (are they even aware they’re basing a major part of their theology on what a *gasp!* Catholic wrote???)

          As for the topic of this post…been there, done that, lost a lot of good friends and good opportunities as a result. Only just now waking up to assess the damage. 😯

  3. It’s crazy how many of the supposedly non-fundamentalist conservative evangelicals with blogs were talking about separating from John Piper because he invited Rick Warren to speak at some conference. I never cease to be amazed at how far this virus has spread.

    1. No joke. I never realized how protesting RW was so popular even outside fundyland until that happened. It’s not like RW is Joel O’Steen or anything, and frankly I don’t see why Piper wouldn’t be thrilled to have O’Steen if he could. I’m looking forward to hearing from Ted Haggard next month, which I wouldn’t really go to his church, but excommunicating I think is one of the more idiotic ideas ever.

  4. I always thought the craziest things were when people would boycott not only Proctor and Gamble, but then go on witch hunts looking for any company/product that also contained a P&G product, etc. I think I may have in college convinced a person or 2 that if they were serious about it, they should never ever invest in the stock market because you have no control over what actual stocks are in various funds, and my understanding is the funds will change specific stocks regularly while maintaining the overal investment strategy. Like the end goal really is going Amish and foregoing all modern products. I always found it amusing watching the gears spin when someone thought they had sufficiently seperated themselves from whatever boycott product, and you poke more holes in how they still are accidentally supporting.

      1. I finally gave up on boycotts when I started finding out how many companies actually support stuff all over the place without lining up perfectly with any one agenda or another. Boycott Target for supporting Planned Parenthood! Boycott Target for supporting conservative candidates! Boycott… wait, what? Now, I boycott for one thing only: lousy service.

      2. It’s interesting. The Snopes article only has the P&G conspiracy going back to the 90’s – but I know for a fact that it existed in 1983 when my science teacher at a fundy school told us about it when I was in 8th grade. We had a whole class dedicated to these crazy fundy conspiracies. Exxon, P&G, you name it…it was in there.

        1. The Snopes article mentions in the first paragraph (after the quote of the rumor) that the legend has been around since 1980. All the examples given with dates attached to them are more recent, though.

      3. Proctor and Gamble eventually gave up on trying to deny the Satanism rumor, because every time they mentioned it (even to deny it), it just helped spread the rumor.

        The latest ridiculous boycott I’ve heard of is against a soup company. I won’t mention the name, for fear of helping spread the craziness. The company’s Canadian division had a Muslim organization certify that some of its meatless soups are halal (halal being the Muslim equivalent of kosher). Now a bunch of nuts are saying that the soup company is somehow allied with Islamist terrorists. Apparently, the boycotters think that eating soup can somehow turn you into a Muslim.

        For the record, I’ve eaten some halal food, and I’m still not a Muslim.

        1. “IÒ€ℒm still not a Muslim”

          Obviously the Muslims haven’t discovered door-to-door yet. πŸ˜†

    3. My fundy church started boycotting Starbucks. While they claim it was because of something written on their cups, I always suspected it had more to do with the new coffee/bookstore the church and college opened. πŸ™„

      2. BJU used to have a Starbucks in their snackshop but got rid of it because of the offensive cups. I think BJU had the right to do that and don’t see anything wrong with that.

        Fortunately they did not and still do not forbid students from going to starbucks.

    1. Naturally. After all, someone could see you walking out of the grocery store and might think you have a six-pack or pack of cigarettes in there. How are they supposed to know that all you got is a loaf of bread and a couple cans of soup? Flee the appearance of evil!

      1. This reminds me of someone who shopped at the grocery store I worked at as a teenager/young adult. This woman had a very sour face, never spoke to anyone in the store, and looked like she rather be anywhere else. I “got” to take out her groceries because the other kids would find something else to do or another customer to help. πŸ™„ So I did my job and took out her groceries.

        I attempted to make some small talk, as with I did with all the customers. When I asked, “How are you today, ma’am?”, she quoted the first half of 2 Cornithians 6:17: “Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate!”

        “Oookay”, I thought. I placed the groceries in her trunk, closed the lid, and out of habit, said. “Thank you, ma’am, have a good day!” She replied by repeating the verse. She was a regular shopper at the store, but as far as I was able to determine, never said anything to anyone…except for that verse. It makes me wonder, if she’s somehow still alive, if she orders her food on the internet. Probably not. 😐

  6. I had a HAC-graduate teacher in high school who used to tell us not to “drink, smoke or chew…or run with those who do.” Oy.

    2. Of course, to in keeping with this topic, it should be “Don’t smoke or chew or run with those who do, or run with those who run with those who do!”

  8. How do you know none of those cats are friends with the wrong kind of people?
    Some cats are not very discriminating in their associations.

    Jesus, of course, was friends with a lot of the wrong kind of people, so you want to stay far away from him. But if you’re following this “separation” doctrine, you already are.

  9. This is Fundy Phariseeism at it’s best. I read a pamphlet recently from a Fundy U president on the dangers of social media. He explained how “people will judge you” based on your Facebook friends and based on their friends. A pastor at the church said he wouldn’t follow a family member if they were friends with sinners on Facebook.

    I laughed so hard.

    1. I’m sure Fundy’s disdain being called “Pharisee” but the name should be a badge of honor to them since it means “separated ones.”

    2. @Tom K, I had a friend from church apologize to me because sometimes some of her unchurched friends write things on her wall that aren’t very Christian. I told her not to apologize: I was glad she wasn’t isolating herself away from her unsaved friends but trying to be “salt and light” (Mt. 5).

      2. I recently got separated from by a fundy facebook friend. I knew her a bit from BJU when we both worked there, and she had friended me, even though she knows I’m gay. But then her preacher spoke on separation, and she came to my workplace to tell me in person that she had unfriended me. I told her I thought that was total bs, but she had to try to follow her own conscience (as dictated to her by the man-o’-gid).

        1. That’s the more insidious form of separation than the boycotting companies which is just juvenile & dumb.

        2. Several of my fundy acquaintances unfriended me on facebook when I came out as trans. None of them have gone so far as to unfriend our mutual friends though.

        5. Better to have them separate from you than try to beat the living s**t out of you. It still happens.

        6. @John, it’s the T of LGBT, and please don’t inform us of what fundies think of the T’s or any other of the LGBT’s.

  10. Holy, Holy, Holy
    Separate and Holy
    Early in the Morning IÒ€ℒll rise to part with thee.

    Holy Holy Holy Judgment and piety,
    From God to Kevin Bacon by only three degrees.

    1. πŸ‘Ώ
      I’m separating from you because of your reference to Kevin Bacon. Kevin Bacon makes evil movies (like Tremors) for Hellywood. You sing songs about Kevin Bacon and your kids probably sacrifice goats to Beelzebub.
      πŸ‘Ώ

      1. Well, I’m separating from you because you know what movies Kevin Bacon was in, which means you must watch movies, which makes you evil!

      2. dang, now george wants to separate from me because I’m within 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon.
        -My wife wants to separate from me because I don’t look like Kevin Bacon.
        -My dog wants to separate from me because he knows I’m the one who eats all the bacon (he never gets any leftovers).
        -The cat never liked bacon in the first place, it wants to separate from me over socio-political issues. (he’s a Kommunist-Kat) 😯

        2. 1. George 2. your wife 3. the dog 4. the cat – you need one more so you can have five degrees of separation! πŸ™‚

        3. There is a lefthanded Albainian ( πŸ˜‰ ) out there who is probably ready to separate me (or even with me), after me sneaking george in here the way I did and all. 😯

  11. The place I just left told the staff members that we could not listen to CCM, which was basically defined as any music not produced by the Wilds, the Herbsters, or our own music “pastor.”

    However, the teens and other people regularly sang songs as “special music” that were just cleaned-up CCM songs. I looked up several of those songs on iTunes and started listening to them because I liked the lyrics, but then I got called in and fussed at because I was listening to evil music.

    So, someone explain to me how those other people were able to find this music and clean it up so it was acceptable, if they didn’t listen to the original music? Were they allowed to listen to it only if they said, “I don’t like this, I don’t like this, I don’t like this” over and over again while listening?

    1. If you want the actual answer they get the sheet music through choral clubs. Half the time I doubt they know the songs they’re singing are popular.

      Fundy rule: Singing Tomlin and Hillsong poorly is holy. πŸ™„

      1. My favorite fundy music memory was signing the Rich Mullins song “Creed,” accompanied by a piano, of course. Not only were we signing a song that would, by fundy standards, normally be considered “rock,” but we were singing The Apostle’s Creed. You know, the “vain repetition” that Catholics dreamed up for whatever nefarious purpose. Imagine my surprise upon leaving fundyland, when I discovered that I already knew the creed! 😯

        1. Curse you, George! That’s supposed to be <singing, not <signing. As Don is the one who originally introduced George to the board, I think I’m going to have to separate from him. Sorry, Don. 😈

        4. *snicker* I feel sorry for the bloke who comes on here and unwittingly uses george as his handle….

          seems george is starting to get a real feel for the place and is making himself right at home. but now Amanda wants to separate from george. πŸ˜₯
          (george says ok, him be friend w/Amanda anyay) 😎

        7. We probably did a lot of toned-down songs in the past. Since I didn’t listen to hardly any CCM, I wouldn’t know what the original song was like; I’d just see it in a music arrangement book and play it on my piano.

          Once I heard two students sing “Written in Red” at a small Christian school and LOVED it so my husband and I did it. A friend visited, heard us sing it, loved it, and taught it to his quartet at his IFB church. When they sang it, a family QUIT THE CHURCH. They thought the song went over a line. Awwwwkkk!!!! I’m so tired of having been part of such a miserable group of people, acting like babies and spoiled brats. “I don’t like your song; I’m leaving!”

    2. People at Fundy U. teach that only faculty or specialists in that field (whether it be music, literature, movies) are discerning enough to truly judge media.

      So You’re not allowed to listen to it, but Frank Garlock and other fundy specialists are because they’re the only ones trained well enough to avoid the evil influences. 😯

      (No, they don’t have a lot of respect for regular people’s intelligence.)

      1. Lizzy F. wrote:(No, they donÒ€ℒt have a lot of respect for regular peopleÒ€ℒs intelligence.)

        QFT

    3. My former cult reakish church had a little weenie music director who announced that we could ONLY sing music if it was in the hymnal or written by church members. SERIOUSLY?!?!?! Church members who had no formal music training?! Anyhow, he also mentioned that we could NEVER sing music from The Wilds, especially Mac Lynch. Funny thing was, our staff envagelist’s wife (who was related to the Pastor…of course! πŸ™„ ) had written and recorded songs by The Wilds AND Mac Lynch! πŸ™„

      Anyhow, I found a song I wanted to sing in a hymnal laying back by the choir area. The Sunday following my special, our music director announced we could only sing songs from the “approved” hymnal…i.e., the one in the pews *not* the ones from the choir area! 😯

      1. George!!!! It was supposed to say FREAKISH, not “reakish”…even if the place did leave a bad taste in my mouth! πŸ˜†

        1. I think “reeking” fits!
          reeking – present participle of reek (Verb)
          1. Smell strongly and unpleasantly; stink.
          2. Be suggestive of something unpleasant or disapproved of.

    4. Oh yes, my fundy music director had a way of finding CCM songs that could be cleaned up (robbed of their beat, etc.). I knew he had to have quite the “illicit” music library, LOL!

      1. I call them “hymnifide.” The United Methodist Hymnal has done that with a few old CCM songs. It’s pretty funny.

    1. “abuse of catnip”—hahahaha.

      My ex-pastor hated cats with a passion and was always talking about killing them, saying they were nasty animals. He persecuted me so much for liking them that I felt like it was a sin, even though he didn’t exactly say so. =P Now I have 2 cats and I consider them my children. πŸ˜†

      1. Personally, I find them an aid to Christian devotion. There’s nothing quite like read the Bible or the Early Church Fathers by the fireplace with a warm cat on your lap.

        πŸ™‚

        1. My cat sits with me many mornings when I’m having quiet time. Quite nice.

          I took the little guy to a Blessing of the Animals ceremony. He behaved pretty well.

        2. When I got my Jack Russell from the base animal shelter, the priest in my husband’s office gave her a blessing. I don’t think it took. Maybe we need to get her a refill?

        4. I completely agree! Although I can’t deny that my cats will try to sit on whatever I’m reading so that I’ll pay attention to them instead–shhhh, don’t tell the fundies! πŸ˜‰

      2. I have real issues with anyone who talks about killing or torturing any animal. Sounds like he has some real anger and aggression problems. IMO, this guy needs to be watch closely and I’d think twice about being alone with him or letting any kids be alone with him.

        1. He definitely had anger and aggression issues. I remember him bragging about how intense his spankings were when his kids misbehaved–one incident in particular he hit his daughter 25 times. =\

        2. @Mrs. Sarah N, it doesn’t bother me if someone tells a story about GETTING punished by their parents, but any stories about GIVING it out make me VERY uncomfortable. TMI from the pulpit!!!

        1. I liked where the cat licked the KJV Bible, and thus won for herself, “Eternal Salivation.”

    1. I won’t be attending.
      I’ll be busy hanging out with tax collectors, lepers, nonbelievers, and women of dubious repute.
      😈

    2. It is interesting, though, that the gathering is being billed as a “symposium.” “Symposium” is a word of Greek origin meaning “drinking party.”

        1. Not Sanitarium? I bought a bottle of it the other day. Silly IFB in me almost reconsidered at the checkout because it’s owned by the SDA’s. It’s good juice though.

  14. Wow. If you combine the teaching of Jack + Jack you come out with something like this…If you don’t separate from sin you are in sin (sin being anthing that the man of gid thinks is wrong), If your Dad did not separate from someone who is in sin you are in sin, if your Great Grandpa didn’ separate from someone who doesn’t separate from someone who is in sin then you are in sin(ad nauseum). If Adam did not separate from Eve when she sinned, then you must ask God’s forgiveness for Adam’s sin because it was obviously your fault. πŸ™„

    1. “Christians need to confess the sins of their fathers. I believe it is very wise to go to the Lord and say, ‘Lord I have to admit that my father (or any other family member) committed sexual misconduct, and I know about it, God. I want to admit that I have their genes in me because in principle, I was in the loins with them. I want to confess the sin we committed, and I want You to rid me of the iniquity that is in my heart.'”
      -jack schaap

      1. That is some rubbish theology. First of all, Jesus cleanses us from ALL our sin. Secondly, generational curses were under the law, and Jesus frees us from the law to live and love under grace. Thirdly, every one is accountable for their own sin. Fourthly, this is fear mongering at it’s worst. Now, not only do you have to constantly fear being “out of fellowship” with God for your own sins (false teaching), but you also have to fear being “out of fellowship” for your ancestors? What kind of rubbish grace is this???

      2. Jack Schaap’s books/propaganda aren’t worth the toilet paper they’re written on. Please refer to Don’s favorite illustration. Or is that George who likes it so much? Either way, it fits.

        1. Well, george has an honorary doctorate in rectalcranialectomy. He is professionally trained in the “hinlic maneuver” in order to break the seal and safely extract the victim when they get locked in that position. He stresses the importance of wearing ties for those who engage in that acitvity as well as using Prepatation KY-H Mousse liberally prior to the act itself. He also teaches seminars on how to avoid the “Hancock” Headlock. One of the most common things he has to expain to the anti-cultural and anti-intellectual IFB types is the proper way to headbutt. 😯

      4. This is…incredible. If so many other outrageous comments had not been made by this dude and his posse, I would have a hard time believing it.

        There’s just so much nonsense packed into one small paragraph that it’s hard to unwrangle it. 😐

  15. You need to separate from the BG’s
    -Billy Graham
    -Bill Gaither and
    -Bill Gothard!
    You don’t eat “Rice” Krispies or “Graham” Crackers.

    BTW, I know of a fundie church that wouldn’t sing “How Great Thou Art” because of its association with the Billy Graham.

      1. Nah, most will admit they still sin, but they think their confession (v9) brings them forgiveness, because they have very little understanding of blood atonement, and think words and actions contribute to their forgiveness. There is only one way to be forgiven – through the blood, which was shed once. Hebrews 8-10 make the most wonderful argument for total forgiveness of all sin (yep, even the middle of chapter 10, the scary verses oooooohh). It talks about how if the blood of bulls and goats could take away sin once for all, then the Jews wouldn’t have needed to come back yearly for MORE forgiveness. And then it says that Jesus, once He had made the sacrifice of His own body, SAT DOWN, because it was finished, and therefore, forgiveness of sins was accomplished, once for all.

    2. Not sure I understand the point of this verse related to secondary separation? Or was meant as a reply to something else?

      1. Absolutely refers to something else – Gnostics, who were denying sin, and claiming a bunch of other stuff (that they had fellowship with God and some other stuff).

        They did not admit sin, and were in darkness. John encourages them to confess to God that they are sinners, because THEN the blood of Christ would cleanse them from ALL sin and then, being in the light, and not in darkness, the blood of Jesus would cleanse them from ALL unrighteousness.

        This verse, and the following one have been used by IFB’s to keep people under guilt and condemnation for years (and many other Denominations too). Praise the Lord that I was finally shown the truth about this verse. When the Spirit of God convicted me of my unbelief (the unbelief that I was a sinner, worthy of condemnation), I was able to confess to God my true state, and the blood of Christ cleansed me from ALL sin. Now, I do not need to confess to be forgiven, because the blood was shed once for all, and I am sanctified once for all by the one offering of Jesus Christ. Do I sin? Yes. Am I already forgiven. Yes? Why do I confess my sins? To thank God for His total forgiveness in Christ!

    3. Bravo, John.

      I think this one is more appropriate for this particular discussion:

      “In those days people will no longer say, ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’ Instead, everyone will die for his own sin; whoever eats sour grapesÒ€”his own teeth will be set on edge.”

      Jeremiah 31:29-30

  17. Stolen from a FB friend: “To be consistent with the principle of secondary separation, you’d have to leave the planet.” – RC Sproul, Ligonier Pastors Conference

    2. Paul even says not to seperate completely

      9I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

      In other words, Christians who are immoral, who have fallen to the flesh, are to be dealt with according to scripture, lovingly, compassionately, but not consolingly. However, you can’t separate from all immoral people, because you would have to leave the planet – you wouldn’t be able to have a job, work, trade, buy, sell etc.

  18. Cats are snobbish holier than thou isolationists too. So they would actually fit in with alot of the fundies…

    1. John – you might be onto something here. Afterall my cat does wake me up on the days I want to sleep in. Kind of like door-to-door soulwinners(?) on a Saturday morning. πŸ˜€

    2. I can think of some cats I’d like to see immersion baptised. The longer they’re buried w/ Christ the better! πŸ™‚

        1. Nice! Consider my time wasted. I also rediscovered LOLcat Bible translation on that search. Also wonderful. I think this this should be the SFL official Bible translation.

          An Ceiling Cat rode invisible bike over teh waterz.

          Sounds inspired to me.

        2. I say this with the utmost respect, but whoever did that LOLcat bible had some serious time on their hands and needs to get a life! πŸ˜†

        3. I assume they have to be trying to make money off it somehow. IDK how, but they can’t have put that much time & effort in for just the fun of it. Although you never know.

        4. Wow! Someone must REALLY, REALLY hate the Scriptures in order to produce this, as Don puts it, intestinal blow…

        5. I never knew of LOLcat bible. I was just aware of the picture of the cat looking through the ceiling that was accompanied by “Ceiling Cat is watching you ____________”. I have seen various things at the end.
          But who knew that ceiling cat had its own cottage industry.
          Maybe the fundys are right…the interwebz is an evil place.

        6. The LOLcat Bible is a joint effort. Unless it’s already complete (I haven’t been there in a while), anybody who can speak/write LOLcat and wants to translate the Bible into it can take on an untranslated verse or two. Much of it is pretty awful, but some bits are quite beautiful.

  19. Sometimes I think separation’s not a bad idea. Let’s just send Hyles and the rest of his ilk to some nice quiet desert island someplace. They won’t have to deal with sinners and we won’t have to deal with them.

    1. I find it interesting that of all the issues they gripe about in their survey results, they use the term “dangerously uneducated” when it comes to the people’s response about music.

      I’m glad they have their priorities straight.

    2. What’s strange to me is that they don’t consider Piper or McArthur to be fundamentalists. I guess that they aren’t in the sense that they don’t preach like morons against music and clothing, but they are still quite law based in their approach to sanctification and receiving God’s blessings. Although, to be honest, my only experience with them comes from when I was very interested in the Free Grace/Lordship debate, which doesn’t really bother me anymore (I’ve settled it in my mind), so my only real experience with them was listening and reading their teachings about sanctification, which I found to be law based (ie, obey God and he will bless, rather than, God blesses and your obedience follows). No idea what they teach about other stuff.

      1. This is true. Fundyism may be legalistic in both doctrine and practice, but some of our Reformed friends are legalistic in their approach to sanctification. They say “justification is monergistic, but sanctification is synergistic.” Garbage! Either all of salvation is of God, or of man! Either GRACE or Pelagianism!

    3. What’s strange to me is that they don’t consider Piper or McArthur to be fundamentalists. I guess that they aren’t in the sense that they don’t preach like morons against music and clothing, but they are still quite law based in their approach to sanctification and receiving God’s blessings. Although, to be honest, my only experience with them comes from when I was very interested in the Free Grace/Lordship debate, which doesn’t really bother me anymore (I’ve settled it in my mind), so my only real experience with them was listening and reading their teachings about sanctification, which I found to be law based (ie, obey God and he will bless, rather than, God blesses and your obedience follows). No idea what they teach about other stuff.

      Meh, I left the other details in πŸ˜› now everyone can blame me.

    4. I did find hope in this survey that many of the “fundamentalists” in these colleges are actually disagreeing with the core tenets of fundamentalism.

  21. How do you know when you’ve separated enough? Answer: when you’re suspicious of everyone. Couldn’t be easier. Pish!

  22. I don’t know if someone has brought this up already, but what about freakin’ dating? Hyles says to abstain from enticing which would lead to temptation which would lead to sin. You cannot possibly do that much separation while dating, no matter which Bible college you’re at. We’ve all heard of PK’s (Pastor’s Kids = supposed to be on the pedestal above regular church members but right below their dad, at least that’s how it is in IFB) who ended up raping or molesting someone.

      1. It’s not the PKs I wanted to highlight, but rather dating and have the inability to separate from enticement, which would help you refrain from temptation, which would help you refrain from sin. Mentioning the PKs was to show that it is impossible, no matter your heritage, to refrain from enticement. And I, personally, know more than 20 PKs who committed sexual sins, let alone other immoral ones. The sad thing is, half of those I learned during ONE YEAR AT BIBLE COLLEGE!

      2. Dear John: There is an answer for dating and it’s “courtship”.

        Courtship is a long process where Dad (and maybe Mom) allow you to date inside your home while making sure that you are never allowed to be alone. Dating is strictly taboo. Separation at its finest.

      3. From my somewhat limited experience, I would guestimate that it is closer to 50%. Half of the kids that came from really truly fundy homes will stay the course in serving the Lord. The other half go completely off the deep end and cram into a couple of years what non-fundys experience over the course of growing up normal.

    2. It tends to happen in a breeding place for Obsessive-Compulsive practices… much separation and artificial holiness is taught and enforced… until the person CAN’T TAKE IT any longer and commits acts belonging to the other extreme! Human nature never changes. There is nothing new under the sun.

  23. All these stuff about the IFBs gave me a little rap on how a young IFB enters fundy U and leaves the “faith” – which has little to do with authentic Christianity.

    Seen so many hurt souls of unbelief, get “on fire for Jesus” in their teens, go door-knocking with tracts and their KJV, no drinks, no smokes, no prom dancing, try to be the fervent preacher boy, waiting for the Rapture to get by. Then come one day when the preacher screams, throws a hot potato at the teen.

    The teen bit the dust for three long years, then he says to preacher, I’ll get outta here. I’m going to public college and get a degree, join the military to serve the country, drink booze, get tattooed, marry, and make merry, start three businesses and a family.

    So the preacher said, you full of bitter and hate, you’ll get drunk and drugged and laid and dead. God’s gonna strike you and make you cry, outta this little church you’ll never survive. Three sermons in a row, three spiritual arrows, then gave this kid church discipline. It’s five years now since he got expelled, and only God knows if he made it out. Whether he could be the salt of the earth, or still grieved and full of spiritual hurt.

    You see, Jesus said, Come to me, My yoke is light and my burden’s easy. I took your sins and paid a heavy price, secured your freedom with my life. So show a bit more grace towards one another, for life about’s loving your God and your brother.

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