Today some people will celebrate the quiet courage and brave sacrifices that the men and women of our military have made over the years. Still other people will do stuff like this:
I had no idea that anybody else who was proud of their country was only imitating American patriotism.
First
People shouldn’t be allowed to be up this early.
I would have been first…but I was already at work.
I wonder if somebody should write this guy a letter and tell him that patriotism is not mentioned in the Bible as a Christian virtue. I think that patriotism is fine, in its place. But I doubt that the noblest of our soldiers died for something as abstract as a flag or a country. They died for their fellow Americans, protecting us. Indeed, out of respect for them, I want my government to be far more selective and cautious about taking up arms and going to war.
I wonder if fundies want to stir up this idea of patriotism so that people in their congregations would be willing to die (ie stay quiet about abuse/crimes/spiritual abuse from the pulpit) for the group (IFB).
I think it has more to do with the foundation of what Baptist fundamentalism really is: a cultural and political system dressed in the borrowed rags of religion.
Without American culture and American politics fundamentalism as we see it now cannot continue to exist. Therefore, stirring up patriotic feeling is simply self-preservation.
“Without American culture and American politics fundamentalism as we see it now cannot continue to exist.”
Interesting statement. I’ll have to put some more thought into it. It would also make a great topic for a future post, maybe? 🙂
Spot on, Darrell.
As I keep saying, Fundies and many other American Christians have their own national culture confused with the Gospel.
Gipp says America is the best country in history because of the Bible. So he apparently believes that there are no other countries where Christians believe in the Bible? Not even Great Britain, the home of his idolized King James Version?
BullGipp.
Local Baptist church (SBC) erected flags on its lawn for Veterans Day, surrounded by near-life-size (plastic?) statues of soldiers with guns and bayonets.
I appreciate where they’re coming from — the WWI connection and all — but the tableau seemed discordantly militaristic…I mean, right in front of a church and all.
Ok, for starters, I’m pretty sure there were people who loved their country before America was a nation.
And secondly, there are a hell of a lot of good things about countries other than America. And America has an awful lot of problems. Doesn’t mean Americans don’t have anything to be proud of. But sheesh, the greatness of countries is a complicated matter. What are you going to rate a nation on? Infant mortality? Wealth per capita? Percentage of citizens living in poverty? National debt? Greatest military might? Most advanced Scientific discoveries? Academic achievements of its citizens? Best public infrastructure? Best international sporting teams? Murder rate per capita?
America certainly has some amazing things going for it, but it’s not the top in all those areas, and they were just categories I thought off the top of my head. I think you’d be hard pressed to find a country that is the top in everything. It’s far more likely that different countries will do different things well.
In conclusion, Sam Gipp is a complete, moronic doofus, who is not worth anybody’s time. He’s also mates with my former pastor, which says oh so much.
I first read that “He also mates with my former pastor.” Which took my thoughts to a completely different place.
Bahahaha well that rumour is totally unconfirmed 😛
Oh good, I’m not the only one that missed the ‘s there. XD
I had to do a double take at that last sentence.
Same here. Funny stuff.
😯 Mind bleach. Mind bleach. It was the third reading before I understood this line. 😳
Same here
Yep, you weren’t the only one Darrell. 🙂
Despite America not being in the top of those things, I personally believe it’s the greatest country in the world, just by default. We landed on the moon, we invented basketball and North American football, we win the most in the Olympics, and we’re back to back World War champions. If someone wants to claim they’re a better a country then us, they can go ahead. A person a can also believe a goose is a duck, they’re wrong, but they can do it if they want.
I should say that I’m super patriotic about America and my reasons can turn irrational and arbitrary at any moment.
” and we’re back to back World War champions. ”
Just no.
Do research beyond what the average American social studies book’ll tell you. This is patently false.
How about you Google “back to back World War champions” next time. It’s American pride, the average educated person knows ‘Merica had help. Geez, take a chillaxative, not everything needs to be serious on this website.
“and we’re back to back World War champions.”
Really? You really find patriotic pride in that? Our involvement in those wars was necessary, sure. But to flippantly declare the US as “World War champions” is distasteful, to say the least. 🙄
exactly, as if we won those wars on our own….I think Canada, Britain, as well as others might have played some part in any victories….
American pride is one thing, revising history is another….stop the madness. America’s achievements are many–but before we existed other nations invented things which made any of our achievements possible. Stop being so arrogant. We are simply a brick in the wall of human history.
Seriously? You won the moon race! Yup, got to give you that one; you came first in a field of just two using world war two technology developed by the Germans, whilst the British and French spend their money on really pushing the envelope with a supersonic passenger jet, the Concorde. Your SST never flew, did it? Basketball and North American Football both has their origins in Europe, where Rugby Football is still played, except here it’s a men’s sport. Olympics – got to give you that, well done. Except if you rearrange the medals table to reflect the medals per million of population you loose out to the Aussies most times. As for the world wars, well your comment is rather distasteful and also blatantly untrue. American demands for loan repayments at the treaty of Versailles set the seed for the second world war, where you were happy to hide behind Britannia’s skirts until forced to choose who to fight.
Be proud of America, there’s plenty to be proud about, just don’t be delusional. That was my countries problem for too long, but then we lost our empire, introduced the welfare state and a raft of equality legislation and led the world in debt relief and international aid. That put the Great back into Britain (though we still have more than our fair share if nutters (and we’re secretly proud of them too)).
Haha, you said basketball has its roots in Europe, shows how much you know. I played over a decade of organized ball, coached organized for a half decade, and am very knowledgeable in its history. Basketball is purebred American, nothing else. Naismith may have lived in Canada for the longest time, but he was in ‘Murica when he invented the sport. Get your history straight next time.
You’re gonna say America is great b/c of FOOTBALL & sports? SPorts has become the IDOL of American with millions of people spending billions of dollars in temples called stadiums to worship their athletic gods. Just today saw that Atlanta Braves (and I live in Atlanta) are building a new stadium – while the Falcons are planning a $1Billion+ stadium in the near future. God help us. 😥
America is great, one being football, a lot more reasons though.
Settle down. He is obviously being slightly humorous here. Notice the “irrational and arbitrary”…
I don’t understand why anyone would be proud of American football. There’s a reason nobody else plays it 😛
That’s a reason to be proud – no one is willing to play.
An Englishman once told me that he thought US football players were wimps because “they wear all that padding”, whereas the rugby players don’t have anything of the kind.
Exactly. Rugby league players think grid iron is a pathetic game.
There’s a reason why no one else watches it too. Too many breaks, not enough sport actually being played.
I’ve got to wonder if Sam Gipp has ever visited any other country.
I have, and I find that there are many good people (and some bad people) in every country, and that even the most unfortunate country has some things to be proud of, and even the most fortunate country has some things to be ashamed of.
The USA is my mother country and I love it, but we aren’t the best at everything. We rank lower than many other countries in measures like health, literacy, environmental protection, women’s and children’s rights, and crime rates, for example.
Yes. Gipp has spoken at multiple Australian churches.
Somehow I suspect that the Iraqis would not say that we’ve been good to them…
Exactly.
depends on which Iraqis you are talking to.
I had in mind the 100,000+ _civilians_ dead in the war since 2003.
I thought that number had been debunked as ridiculously high.
The 100,000 figure is actually on the low end of the various reports that have been published. Sure numbers can be misleading, misinterpreted, misreported and skewed to one’s fancy, but the bottom line is that a lot of Iraqis (including citizens) have been killed during the war.
There were roughly 70-125 civilian deaths per day during the 8,000 or so days of Saddam’s career.
Even if 100,000 is accurate (and its not) the overarching value that should motivate any intervention would be the defense of life – the paradox is that removing Saddam from power and attempting to strengthen the country against foreign fighters and radical islamist militias who killed most of those civilians required lives to be taken and inevitably results in civilian casualties.
The numbers don’t make what happened there illegitimate – you can argue with the just war theory from a philosophical perspective and its application to Iraq, but just saying 100,000 civilians died doesn’t get the job done.
I have spoken to many Iraqi refugees here in the U.S. and almost to a person they praise the U.S. for doing something, while acknowledging that we made a mess while we were at it.
How’s the working out?
100,000 is actually a drastically low estimate of the number of civilians killed in the fighting in Iraq.
Studies done by Iraqis based on causes of death on death certificates came up with an estimate in excess of 200,000 for the first year alone following the U.S. invasion.
Yeah, I can believe the 100,000 figure if you count all the truck bombs that the United States had absolutely nothing to do with.
Elijah, in the studies I refer to, the most common cause of death was bullet wounds, not bombs.
The 200,000 figure, the majority of which killed by bullets, in one year is uh… absurd. Civilian casualties in war usually come as a result of starvation, or in the case of World War 2, the U.S. firebombing Germany and Japan. We did nothing of the sort in the Gulf War. It is absolutely inconceivable that more _civilians_ could be killed by gunfire than actual combatants. If the Iraqis present such a figure, I’d say they’re lying.
100,000+ for the entire war is entirely feasible IF you also count the almost daily truck bombing at their height of the war. And that can be seen as a result of the American occupation, but not as something our forces did directly to Iraqi citizens.
Estimated civilian casualties for Germany in World War II are 600,000… that’s their own count. That includes a brutal Russian invasion, firebombing by the United States, and starvation resulting from the forced removal of Germans from lands that are now Poland after World War II. That’s from a country that had 2-3 times the population in 1945 that Iraq has now.
OK, a number as high as 200,000 feels wrong to you, but where’s the evidence?
The evidence I’m referring to is official death certificates issued in order for the bodies to be buried. And it was the anti-Saddam officials writing most of these certificates, not members of the old regime.
Here’s the dirty little secret they don’t publicize: iraqbodycount.org has the number at about 115,000 from 2003-2011. And while they do note “bullet wounds” as a cause of death for many, they have NO way of documenting who did the shooting. THEY ATTRIBUTE ALL DEATHS TO THE USA. Does that make any sense? I am not saying that there are none, but if we are going to be intellectually honest, this number is greatly overstated.
And how many of those would have been killed if we had _not_ gone in in 2003?
OK, a number as high as 200,000 feels wrong to you, but where’s the evidence?
The evidence I’m referring to is official death certificates issued in order for the bodies to be buried. And it was the anti-Saddam officials writing most of these certificates, not members of the old regime.
It still smells like B.S. The death certificate says “Killed as result of US invasion”? And someone went through and counted them all? Bull.
I can’t find any documentation of that figure on the Interwebs. Granted my Google-Fu is poor and I’ve not spent a lot of time on it. Estimates vary pretty wildly but that one is just way, way far out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War
And how many of those would have been killed if we had _not_ gone in in 2003?
That’s hard to know. The anti-war side likes to inflate casualty estimates. The pro-war side likely inflates the deaths due to the Saddam regime.
How the numbers balance out is hard to tell. Saddam definitely wasn’t a nice guy and there was in fact a pretty large number of people who he killed. Likely he killed more Kurds in the 90’s than died as during the entire Gulf War. Was it worth it? Would he have continued killing at the same rate? What about the knock-off effects his regime had in other nations?
Hard to say.
With regards to the war in Iraq.
Disclaimer. I was against the war from the start and knew it would go badly. The military thought we could march in, the people would give up Hussein, shower us with flowers and let us take over their oil fields. Needless to say, that did not happen.
The war was started on lies the White House strongly urged the CIA to invent. What is more, the White House knew the basis for war was a lie. Bush came into the White House determined to find a way to go to war against Iraq to finish up what his Daddy didn’t.
Saddam was a bad man. However, he kept the peace. If a person made trouble, Saddam killed him AND his family. If a family made trouble, Saddam went after their tribe. Sectarian violence would get proportionately greater retribution.
Yes, Saddam killed the Kurds. They were trying to split Iraq into ethnic territories, and Saddam would have none of it. They didn’t take no for an answer, so Saddam made them take it, the hard way.
For all that Iraq was brutal, Sunni and Shia lived side by side in the same neighborhoods. Different tribal groups intermingled and intermarried. Universities flourished. Students were free to come to the US to study. Christian churches prospered, and Christians comprised about 10% of the population.
The US embargo on chlorine meant clean water in rural areas was well nigh impossible, and contributed to the deaths of thousands of children from water-borne diseases. When we invaded, we destroyed critical infrastructure. We also loosed the restrictions on religious and tribal violence. More people died in the subsequent sectarian sectarian violence than we killed directly, and much of that was never reported.
Neighborhoods that were integrated suddenly became Shia overnight. Where did the Sunni occupants of many of the homes go? Some survived. But many disappeared. Old tribal feuds hundreds of years old revived.
There is no education system left in Iraq worth speaking of. No scholars are produced. Children are uneducated. There is no significant production of goods for export. The markets have a lot of things left behind by the military, but the country is a sad lot worse for our being there. We gave away billions in graft, bribes, and other corruption. Ultimately, no good came out of our being there. We have not stopped the killing, only changed the ones doing it.
True patriotism, in this sad scenario, is begging for forgiveness for what we have done.
“The death certificate says ‘Killed as result of US invasion’?”
No, the certificates just gave “bullet wound” or “gunshot” as the cause of death. In every country I know of, including this one, a death certificate lists time, place, and cause of death. I saw a fair number of them (though no Iraqi ones that I recall) back when I was a paralegal.
@ rtgmath
I would add that the destabilization led to many evils other than human death, such as the destruction of the geological museum and other national treasures.
I definitely agree. We also wantonly destroyed ancient ruins awaiting archaeological study.
We sure showed the Iraqis what we thought was important. We showed the whole world. And we just didn’t get why the world was so upset with us.
Mr. Gipp,
Please don’t ever travel abroad…pretty please? 😐
He’s spoken to churches in Australia before.
I can assure you that Sam Gipp has visited the UK. I went to see him perform a couple of years ago. Can’t recall if he said anything patriotic but it was such a mix of crazy he might have…
I am sure when he does travel abroad he is careful to explain to people all the ways in which their country is inferior to his country. Foreigners love that since they all secretly want to be Americans anyway. 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄
Just look at how well it went over when Mitt Romney made a speech about how Israeli culture is superior to Palestinian culture in the same ways that U.S. culture is superior to Mexican culture (his words, not mine).
Fundy views on America run hot and cold. They lament the fall of America and how we are on the brink of disaster due to our tolerance for wickedness, yet every patriotic holiday they wave their flags and brag on the goodness of their country.
“What is wrong with you? Why didn’t you join your cousins on the 4th-of-July parade church float showing people that the wickedness and sin of America has led it to its last years as a nation! Are you going to join the terrorists now and try to take down our great country because you hate our freedoms?”
— Exact quote from one of my Aunts during a 4th-of-July pre-party.
“Would you like a punch?”
— My reply (I was holding the punch bowl — and didn’t get it until later).
That’s some of the most incoherent gibberish I ever heard.
“They lament the fall of America and how we are on the brink of disaster due to our tolerance for wickedness.”
In reality they are really only lamenting the passing of 1950 America. They reduce American history to a decade or two and hold that era up as the standard for America and for being Biblical. And so no matter what happens in America, they always can be apocalyptic in their message at least until the 1950’s come around again… 😉
Yes! Out one side of their mouth is, “Whoa is America! We’ve got to turn back to gawd as a country…only then will we see true revival.” The other side…”we live in the greatest country there is, gawd bless ‘merica”
classic fundy double standards. It’s sickening.
‘When I say whoa I mean WHOA’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7ChatJC6lU
I tend to bite my tongue so hard that it bleeds when people start spouting off that God will destroy our country because of Teh Gayz. Yeah, ok.
He didn’t destroy it because of the child rape and sex trafficking that Columbus got all up in. He didn’t destroy it when our ancestors committed widespread genocide of the native populations. He didn’t destroy it when we enslaved millions of trafficked people. He didn’t even destroy it when we turned Jewish people away from our shores because, you know, we just didn’t want to dirty our hands with foreign affairs.
But yeah. Ok. He’s gonna rain down fire and brimstone because of Teh Gayz. Those people’s “god” has some seriously messed up priorities.
Well, clearly your just a gay-lovin’ pinko commie. None of those things is near as bad as two men kissin’. Makes me pukin’ sick!
‘Ceptin’ two pinko-commie men kissin’! Why, I bet they even got a commie flag hangin’ in their garage! 😛 so I heard from the Uneasy Rider.
I don’t feel up to watching the video clip, but I do want to take a moment to thank our US veterans (and their families) for their service.
All gave some, and some gave all.
(RIP grand-uncle Pat)
I told everyone. When Darrell takes time away from writing about the fundies, he comes back with a vengeance. What could be worse than a video from Sam Gipp?
A: 2 videos of Sam Gipp
…A video of Bull Gipp, David Grice-agra and Comedian Tony Hutson preaching on American Revivalism found in the King James Bible. 😯 😈
No,no,no… I got it:
A “We are the (IFB) World” style video with all the IFB superstars preach/praying (all at once) in an effort to raise money for the Jack Schaap defense fund. 🙄
Thanks for that visual, Don… I am going to be smirking all day.
I’ve got to admit I’d like to see that video. 😈
“We are MoGs, we seduce children.
We are the ones who preach purity all day,
So you start giving!
There’s a choice we’re making–
We’re saving our own hides.
Its time to make a better day;
Just you for me.”
Thanks for that, BG. Now I’ve got a picture in my mind of Ron Williams, Jackie Boy Hyles, Jack Schaap, Bill Gotherd, Jack Treiber, Lester Roloff, and the Honeybees singing together in a studio, with the ‘cans’ on their ears, singing those lines to the tune of “We Are The World”. (Produced by “young Cox” in the sound booth with his own ‘kingdom’ of engineers…
I would agree that Americans have perfected patriotism. Our love for nation has become quite idolatrous.
And other nations can not go on for a week about their accomplishments because the Renaissance didn’t give us any big accomplishments. There are no artists or scientists or heads of state who have made major discoveries or contributions to the world in the thousands of years before America came into existence or after.
And as so many have noted–all nations have not been blessed by the US–just think of the Native American Nations which we destroyed or the African nations we pillaged to gain slaves.
Nothing like revisionist history.
You had me right up to the point that you brought up the Native Americans & Slaves. What is the statute of limitations on those? Most of the Jews I do business with don’t hold a grudge against modern-day Germany and the Holocaust is 50-100 years more current. If reparations are the answer, I want the Catholic Church to pay me for persecuting my ancestors under Mary I in England.
I’m Native American and I don’t hold grudges…except for that one with Andrew Jackson but you all didn’t have anything to do with that.
Different factors at play.
In the context that he is speaking there is no statute of limitations. He is specifically and repeatedly saying ‘in the history of the world’. Just holding him to his words. Just my opinion, not trying to be snarky or anything
exactly my point. Thank you.
While we are working on gettin’ some reparations, can I fine the Vikings for raping some Northern European Pagan villager that ended up causing my beard to be red when I grow it out?
Where do I send the invoice?
Every nation connected with or part of the British Empire has issues regarding the treatment of aboriginal people groups. America’s record later in her history is better than most. Ridiculous to revise history because someone else revised it. Balance is hard to come by, and this particular worldview is not a result of history, but politics
Hey, I think red beards are gorgeous, sir. Unless it’s “ma’am”, in which case, yeah, let’s find some Viking butt to kick.
What are you talking about?
The preacher stated there is not a country around that hasn’t be blessed by America. I am stating that the nations of the Native Americans suffered greatly. We were not a blessing to them. Nor were we a blessing to the African tribes and nations when we were taking slaves from them. Not every nation has been blessed because of our existence. Just pointing out his revisionist history.
To think that people, including myself, used to sit under this kind of stupidity and nod our heads in acknowledgement. One thing fundies are truly good at, is pulling a think veil of sheepleism over its people. Gipp used to preach in the same circles I grew up in…bonified I.D.I.O.T.
BULL GIPP
(’nuff said)
smells like Victory
Q: How did “Bull Gipp” come to be an expression meaning “Absurd claims that only a half-wit could believe?”
A: Watch this video.
I have different theory about fundies & patriotism: the fundy promulgation of that type of patriotism that says that we must whole-heartedly back everything our country does (and has done) is merely an extension of the MOG telling the sheeple to support him, no matter what.
I do believe that the USA is the finest country in the world, but that does not mean we are perfect. This is one of those cases that anyone who dares point out a flaw is considered to be unpatriotic. I disagree. How can one expect to get better without acknowledging those things that need to be improved?
It’s much like their methods for doing religion. Pointing out a flaw in your IFB church is being “disloyal,” “bitter,” or “rebellious.”
“My country right or wrong: if right to be kept right, if wrong to be put right.”
Granted, fundies attempt to live this phrase as well. It’s just that their definition of “putting right” involves shoving millions of their fellow Americans back down where they “belong.”
does this man not know that a lot of what Americans are proud of comes from overseas? china anyone? They are only like….1.5 billion strong. nope, not great enough for fundies I guess.
How I imagine things:
Gipp: Yarg, yarg, yarg greatest country ever in the history of the galaxy yarg yarg yarg.
Me: You do know that the Statue of Liberty is French, right?
*Gipp stands silently as his brain begins to overheat and then shut down.*
I can dream.
And after his brain shuts down, the fundy reflex kicks in and The Gipp responds:
That’s right it was made in France. But do you know why? DO YOU? Because the French were finally grateful for the country that saved their hide again. The greatest country ever, The USA. The French are like you sir, liberal cowards who hide behind their false gods of environmentalism, equality and peace. Complaining about global warming will not save you my friend. The only warming you have in your future is the eternal warming awaiting you in hell. Amen? But go ahead and kneel at the altar of the NY Times. See how far that gets you with our Saviour. I for one, love the country God loves. Why does God love the US? Because our founding fathers were all Christians who realized that the only way the fledgling country would survive is that if revival broke out across this great land. And they wrote the Declaration of Independence with that in mind. it’s not call the Declaration of Methodists. Amen?
BEST. POST. EVER. (The sad thing is, I actually think this way…at least about the French 😆 )
Of course, the French had nothing to do with saving our hides against the English. From Wikipedia: In the American Revolution, Lafayette served as a major-general in the Continental Army under George Washington. Wounded during the Battle of Brandywine, he still managed to organize a successful retreat. He served with distinction in the Battle of Rhode Island. In the middle of the war, he returned to France to negotiate an increase in French support. On his return, he blocked troops led by Cornwallis at Yorktown while the armies of Washington and those sent by King Louis XVI under the command of General de Rochambeau, Admiral de Grasse, and Admiral de Latouche Tréville prepared for battle against the British.
Lafayette was the most important link between the American and the French Revolutions.
Ricardo, a key teaching in Fundystan is that facts are irrelevant and history exists for the sole purpose of picking out certain words and phrases to make a point regardless of context.
Just like a Fundy sermonizer does with his Bible.
that is way to coherent to be an actual Gipp sermon…OTOH, well done Scorpio, well done!
Gipp said one thing that is true:
“I can’t prove it but I will say it anyway”.
That should be the fundy motto.
SCORE
That’s Sam Gipp’s life verse.
Priceless!
I have two things to say.
First, as the daughter and sister of two men who served their country honorably, I think you are an ungrateful dick.
Second, people like you are the reason people like me wear LaBatt’s t-shirts when going abroad.
I had to go look up LaBatt’s. That reminds me of the time I got to travel abroad, back in the late ’80s. The tour chaperones told us before we got on the plane that we were to identify ourselves as Alaskans, not Americans, because Americans had a terrible reputation but Alaskans were awesome figures of rugged frontier toughness. (This was before Palin, of course. Gee, thanks, Governor.)
It worked, too. I got fanboyed by a hotel security guard who had maybe 40 words of English and wanted to tell me how cool Alaska was.
The first time I visited Europe, the soap opera “Dallas” was fairly recent in people’s memories. When Europeans learned that I was a resident of Dallas, Texas, they assumed I somehow lived inside the TV show (which, by the way, was made in Hollywood, California, not in Texas). I felt bad explaining that I wasn’t a millionaire (in fact, I was incredibly poor at the time), and that Dallas County has no oil wells and a very low ratio of horses to people, because it spoiled their fun.
Well…….that was embarrassing.
War is ALWAYS evil. US military is for conducting war. If you signed up to fight for me, you were duped. You are fighting for the agenda of politicians. More likely you signed up for job training, couldn’t find a job, wanted to see the world, etc. In that case you volunteered to kill anyone anywhere that your superior tells you to in order to live on the public dole.
If you want to defend freedom, become a lawyer. If you want to support freedom, get an honest job where you create value for your employer and end customer.
I heartily disagree with that sentiment, Joshua.
I once did also. Then listening to Ron Paul make such allegedly ludicrous claims, my curiosity and intellectual honesty led me to look into them. Turns out I had been wrong. So here as in other forums, I apologize profusely for voting twice for GWB.
:?:….Uffdah
Sometimes it’s a necessary evil.
But today, the ways we wage war and the reasons for which we wage war are nearly always evil — and unnecessary. Those who make wars never actually fight them. Thus they become something quite different than “fighting for freedom.”
You’re right…appeasement works SO much better. Remind me, how did that work out for Neville Chamberlain? You, sir, (if not a Poe) are an idiot.
Where did I equate peace with appeasement? Chamberlain unilaterally deciding the fate of millions is not a qualitatively different act than Hitler doing it. Using force is not peace. Besides, do not pretend that the world began at that moment. There is context and prior history.
You make the claim that “war is always evil”. Hitler was going to take Western Europe, the only question was how and how those countries were going to react. You can give Hitler what he asks for, but, as history shows, that doesn’t work. So you are let with the choices to:
1. Give him everything he wants…and he will want more
2. Wage war in defense
What’s the third option, harsh language?
You have fallen into the trap of making universal proclamations. “War is always evil” is not true. If your country was attacked without provocation (think 1939 Poland, etc) waging war in defense is not evil. Now if you want to talk about wars of aggression, that is another subject.
I suppose I could have been more clear. Self-defense does not involve an initiation of violence. It would however become a war of aggression when people uninvolved in the initial violence have violence visited upon them. If those Poles choose to defend themselves against the invaders, they may. However they would also be guilty of initiating violence themselves if their conduct of self-defense killed other Poles or Germans civilians minding their own business. On the other hand, those border Poles may welcome the Germans.
Let’s just say that you and I do not – and will not – agree on this. In certain instances, I would support preemptive strikes. And – no – I don’t consider 43’s overthrow of Sadaam justifiable. In point of fact, getting involved in any conflict in the Middle East is a losing proposition.
War IS the continuation of politics by other means (Clausewitz) as well as the imposition of wills through violence (Marines). The need for war is a subset of depravity: like death, bad from the outset. However, that does not mean every war or aspect of war is ALWAYS evil or that every politician is evil (to prove that war is ALWAYS evil, you need to go through every war ever and point out how those who conducted war out of self-defense were wrong).
You also need to prove that those who joined to preserve freedom were duped. People have a multiplicity of reasons for joining the military, true. To claim that it’s to live on the public dole, as if those people are being lazy and avoiding a real job, which is what your tone indicates, is both unkind and unfounded (in that you haven’t provided proof).
You say that supporting freedom entails getting an honest job and creating value. This means the marketplace. Wars are, quite frankly, often the violent clash of interests over the marketplace. The more value you create the more envy you garner which leads to friction which (often) leads to violent friction. If someone tries (by violence) to take away your value or your right to create value, you will, probably, respond violently. If you have enough people on both sides, you have a war. Your creation of value is part of the problem
Your dislike of war is probably well-founded and perhaps rooted in a bad experience in the military (or seeing bad experiences). However, your posted analysis lacks substance which will probably result in some negative reactions that aren’t persecutions of your pacifist stance but are reactions to your blanket statements and misrepresentations of people who joined for rational reasons and with awareness of the faults and foibles and goals of the military.
My distaste for war stems from the innocent dead that war necessarily includes. I am pro-life whether it be americans inside the womb or foreigners outside of it.
Laziness is a stigma you attach to recipients of govt transfer payments that I do not. My point is that the totality of the income is from the government pillaging the productive and painting buildings or digging ditches is no different whether you are in Obama’s military or Roosevelts CCC.
My freedoms continue to shrink as the government and its enforcement agency continues to grow. If that is what they are fighting for, it isn’t working.
This is a humor blog. If you want specifics and abundance of substance, you have google at your disposal.
Joshua, may I try a few quotes that seem to me to support your point?
“Once we sign on for war’s crusade, once we see ourselves on the side of the angels, once we embrace a theological or ideological belief system that defines itself as the embodiment of goodness and light, it is only a matter of how we will carry out murder.” Chris Hedges, journalist and author of War is a Force That Gives Us Meaning
“The Christian followers of Caesar have thus committed themselves to an absurdity that they can neither resolve nor escape: the proposition that war can be made to serve peace; that you can make friends for love by hating and killing the enemies of love. This has never succeeded, and its failure is never acknowledged, which is a further absurdity.” “I may have missed something, but I know of no Christian nation and no Christian leader from whose conduct the teachings of Christ could be inferred.” Wendell Berry, author and ecologist
“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. . . . But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.” “And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.” Jesus Christ, God and an all-around pretty good guy who must have been joking
Actually, I agree with Joshua.
War is always wrong.
Oddly enough, I’ve met a good many military and former military people who also agree with this.
BG – A sincere question for you then. If a country was to be attacked (think 1939 Poland), would you consider it wrong for them (Poles) to wage war in their defense?
That’s a very complicated matter, and there isn’t enough space here to do it justice. I’ll just say that there are cases of communal nonviolent resistance to Hitler that were successful.
I would just like to point out that courts and the lawyers in them are not bastions of freedom. Firstly, because they can have the same issues of corruption as politics. Secondly, because they are only as effective as their enforcers. Courts can make all the judgments they want, but nothing changes if there is no one to enforce the rules and judgments. I’m thinking of the International Criminal Court and how they can find someone guilty in absentia, but cannot stop them from continuing their crimes unless they either give themselves up or someone’s military or police are willing to go force the issue. Yes, lawyers can defend freedom, but not usefully without enforcers.
To say courts are not necessarily effective at defending freedom is not to say that they are necessarily in-effective. As someone born in these borders, the only people removing my freedoms do so under color of law. Thus, a lawyer is needed to defend my right to engage in a prohibited activity. If I try to travel by air without being violated, I will need a lawyer. The military is not currently shooting anyone who is a threat to my freedom.
I’m not saying lawyers and the courts don’t have a role in defending freedom; I’m saying the police and military also have a role. You presented lawyers as being of the only profession that defends freedom – how wonderful that you live in a country where everyone follows the law! When someone is going to break laws, making a judgment in court to stop him will not stop him without enforcement. I admit I am somewhat conflating the police and the military here. I have a strong dislike for war, especially the unjust wars we tend to get into these days. I would prefer the military stick to peacekeeping (emphasis on keeping) and acting as a deterrent, but I am glad the soldiers are there to act when called on. If you disagree with the reason they’re called on, that’s a political problem, not a problem with the military – rule of law, again.
Joshua,
What course of action would you have advised for ridding the world of the Third Reich?
I have often speculated what would have happened to Britain and America if they had been on the losing side of World War One. Would Democracy have ruled?
i think us Brits may have a thing or two to say about the ‘world war champions’ statement. There is a reason that americans are not globally well liked (and it isn’t jealousy.) My Father is american, I have american family and friends I love to pieces, but honestly the ‘we are the best’ arrogance really gets on everybodies tits. I know not evryone is like that but the stereotypical minority ruin it for everyone….
Is “get on everybody’s tits” a phrase?? If so, that’s awesome!! (I was afraid to google it).
It is a bonafide English phrase, and the best thing is it’s gender neutral, so everyone can use it! Another Englishism is “a sandwich short of a picnic”, a phrase which suitably describes Bro Gipp IMHO.
the ‘Merican counterpart would be “a few fries short of a happy meal” – unfortunately all happy meals are now a few fries short due to Michelle Obama’s crusade against childhood obesity – just another reason to rant and rave against the oppression of the man. Now I have to buy my kid two happy meals to get one order of fries! Damn you, Honey Boo Boo!
If we still lived in the greatest country on the planet this wouldn’t have happened
In Texas, we say “Sam Gipp isn’t the brightest porch light on the block,” or “He isn’t the sharpest knife in the drawer.” “He’s a few bricks shy of a full load” is another favorite.
Some of my favorites:
“He’s rowing with both oars out of the water.”
“She seems to have lost all the dots from her dice.”
“The lights are on but nobody’s home.”
Some of my favorites:
The wheel is spinning but the hamsters dead.
Slept his way up the food chain.
His cord doesn’t quite reach the outlet.
He’s a taco short of a combo plate.
Foghorn Leghorn should really get into this list…
sharp as a bowling ball
dumb as a box of rocks
http://foghornleghornquotes.com/foghorn-leghorn-sayings/
I like “not the brightest banana in the bunch,” or “was behind the door when the brains (common sense, kindness, bullshit detectors) were (was) being passed out.”
I occasionally use, especially near the winter holidays, “Not the brightest light on the string.”
Not the brightest sparkplug in the engine block
-or-
Not the brightest glow plug in the 6.7L Cummins
-or-
Not the sharpest point in the Accel Super Stock
(motor head here)
As a long-time user of Unix, my favorite is:
$HOME=/dev/null
I apologize for the arrogance. Not all of us believe in this bull crap.
Of course we don’t, and at least two people refuted the initial ignorant comment almost as soon as it was posted. So there’s that.
And what about the 1:40 mark. He says he is not going to hip check Israel, but then he actually throws out his elbow.
So he rants about the US being the greatest country evah, yet he makes reference to a game that was invented in either Canada or Northern Europe and has been dominated by those countries for the most part since then.
A hip check is legal. Elbowing is a 2-minute minor. Ignorance gets you a game misconduct. To the penaly box Mr. Gipp.
Ugh! “I don’t think there is a country on this earth that has not benefited by this country!” How about those who already called this land home before people ‘found’ it? I don’t think native americans will say they benefited. So just no.
Especially those First Nations that were completely wiped out due to contact with the U.S. Americans.
More generally due to diseases than violence, though. Smallpox and measles killed large numbers of U.S. East Coast native peoples even before the English built Jamestown, and many more after. Columbus and the Spanish explorers/conquistadors played a huge part in the success of English colonization, by bringing their diseases with them and spreading them around.
Yes, that’s all true.
Disease-infested blankets and alcohol were two of the most efficient methods of killing the First Nations. Much of it was done in the name of Christian charity.
Go your way, be warmed, filled, and dead.
I resent that patriotism has been coopted by all the nuts out there.
When I was in school being a patriot meant that you appreciated your country and honored those who fought to keep it intact.
Today patriot has become synonymous with right wing nut job.
train111
So in your day a patriot was a blind nationalist and now it’s a blind nationalist. I’m not sure it was coopted as much as repackaged.
How about a deaf nationalist? Does that count? 😛
I swear at one point he said he wasn’t going to say something cause he couldn’t prove it, and then he said it anyway.
yes, he does….I wanted to say there was not one thing he said up to that point or after that point which he could prove….there is no possible way he could have visited every nation which ever existed to be able to make the claims he does. And his imitation of other nations trying to come up with things they are proud of is insulting to anyone…he has no proof he has actually had any conversation or heard any conversation like that….not one thing he says has any documentation or grounds in reality.
As a patriotic citizen of “a small African country”, that purifies it’s own water, please don’t ever let this guy be a missionary, but if you do please don’t be offended if we cook and eat him! 😈
But seriously now you know why we non Americans are sometimes a little mad at y’all! This guy is unbelievably offensive!
We won’t be offended if you remember to say grace before you dig in. 😀
Hope you don’t have any stomach upsets!
Sorry my name in the previous post should read jbthebaptist – guess it just shows my inferiority 😳
Ok so I what I meant to say was – As a patriotic citizen of a small African country, that in fact purifies it’s own water, please don’t ever send this guy out as a missionary cos if you do we may just be forced to cook and eat him! 😈
On a more serious note – wow he is offensive! Now you can understand why we none Americans sometimes think y’all can be a little arrogant. 😛
In typical fundy style, Gipp uses dogmatic language, superlatives, jingoism, and unsupported “facts” (lies) in such a way that a “thinking person” can be made to feel ashamed of their own patriotism… Until they realize that his speech was filled with dogmatic language, superlatives, etc.
While I was stationed in West Germany in 1986 I visited Copenhagen, Denmark (When they beat W. Germany in the “soccer” world cup on June 3rd!)
I stopped an unsuspecting Dane and asked him, “Hey, Dane, where’s the embassy?” (I really didn’t say Hey Dane) Said Dane replied, “WHICH embassy?” (with a hint of sarcasm detected even by me) I sheepishly replied, “The American embassy?”
The unidentified aforementioned Dane not-so-surreptitiously replied, “There are many other countries in this world besides the United States!”
Another fine young Dane at the University (Where I stayed) saw my USAEUR plates on my pea soup green 1980 Audi 80 coupe and said with disdain in the local tongue, “Hey, you American! Leave Nicaragua and all peoples alone!” After a local acquaintaince skillfully translated the brief rant, I stood there wide-eyed and blinked repeatedly as he walked out of sight.
In the larger scheme of things both well-educated Denmarkians were absolutely correct. We Americans can be an arrogant lot in the eyes of those billions from other nations. Some would argue, “Hey, at least them Danish aren’t speaking German!” True, but it gives us no right to belittle their sovereignty. I happen to know that the Germans thought they were not only the greatest nation on earth in, like, for ever, but that they were the purest of races. I don’t want to go down that path.
B.R.O.
I really thought Gipp would think the U.K. was the best country ever, being that it did give him the King James Version that he loves so dearly.
Right thinking wrong country.
England gave the world the AV.
England is the greatest country in the world.
Linking Americanism to Christianity has been going on from the time of the American Revolution.
Really.
A lot of Baptist churches got members who found it was unacceptable to worship in the Church of England. Patriotism, love of country, and godliness were linked together in one’s choice of a church. Of course, during the American Revolution it was made illegal to pray for the King.
The Southern Baptist Convention was started over the issue of whether missionaries could own slaves or not. Northern Baptist Churches said no. Southern Baptists objected, pulled fellowship, and many a Southern Baptist preacher intoned at length on how slavery was God’s will. There are pamphlets, actual print copies of sermons, that were circulated about this very thing at the time as an encouragement to people in the South.
I remember listening to Billy James Hargis and Carl McIntyre preach their sermons against liberalism and communism when I was young. My mother loved them!
Two of the founders of the Southern Baptist Seminary have *brilliant* writings in the defense of slavery. Interestingly, one of them rejected slavery while arguing for the Biblical defense of slave ownership.
Nothing in the Bible forbids slavery. It only demands fair treatment of slaves.
In my view, it’s the spirit of the Gospel, not the letter of the Scriptures, that makes it untenable to own another human being.
BASSENCO:
“Indeed, out of respect for them, I want my government to be far more selective and cautious about taking up arms and going to war.”
So very much this.
Thanks, George. That was supposed to be in reply to BASSENCO, up at the beginning of the thread.
I had a great experience in Sunday service with our service for veterans. The WWII veterans especially humbled me.
There are two places I feel unworthy, in the presence of God and in the presence of veterans…
http://tipofthetonguetheology.blogspot.com/2013/11/there-are-two-places-i-feel-unworthy-in.html
And I nominate this comment, best of the thread!
A great country has enough grace to never use the death penalty, and enough brotherly love to provide healthcare for all its citizens. A great country makes peace, not war. It invests in education, not killing, and co-operation, not empire-building. A great country has freedom: a constitutional system that is robust and inclusive – one that doesn’t have Guantanamo loopholes or practice ‘extraordinary rendition’, and doesn’t allow elections to be bought and sold by corporate interests. By these criteria, my vote for greatest country on earth would probably go to Luxembourg, or maybe Norway.
I have a great deal of respect for the Northern European countries. We gave the world Lockheed-Martin. They gave the world Volvo. And Ikea.
I don’t go to Ikea if I can avoid it. (I live about two miles from one.) When I come out, I have a cart full of stuff that I didn’t know I needed, and I can’t remember what I went it for! Then I have to stuff it all into my Volvo and drive home…
Evil is in the world. When evil men make their way to power they need to be killed.
War makes this possible.
I’m late commenting on this, so I am sure most, if not all, I will say has already heen said. I’m gonna say it anyway. I am a veteran, so I do have a patriotic bone around here somewhere. I did not join to fight, but rather to attempt to care for those who were injured, not only from the US, but the citizens of the countries where we were fighting. I was a medic. Having said that, how dare he stand there and say other people don’t love their countries. Really? Also, I do not know what history books he has been reading, but the US is just as guilty as some other countries for doing some pretty horrible things. Let’s see, Native American wars and upheaval, lynchings, brutality to immigrants, refusal to allow Jews safety on our shores, CIA operations to destroy governments in South American countries, etc etc etc. I am an American, yes, but I can’t forget that our country is responsible for some pretty bad stuff too. I hope that man doesn’t travel anywhere out of the deep South with that attitude.
Albania was way more communist than the USSR. It was like Nazi Germany!
I don’t think he understands the difference between communism & fascism.
Here’s the proof that Jesus does love America: 😎 😛
http://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-international-airlines-ad-shows-statue-of-liberty-and-jesus-in-bed-2012-11
america has the same attitude as the British Empire about a century. The sun never set on the British Empire because it shone out its ass! Well, the Britsh empire is gone, now
America has the same attitude that the British empire had about a century ago. The sun never set on the British empire, simply because the sun shone out of its ass! Well, the Britush empire, even with all its might and influence (which was probably greater even than America) has gone. History repeats itself. It has to. Nobody listens.