Standards

Dressing for the Lord

379 Comments

In preparation for writing his book Dressing for the Lord, David Cloud, famous fundamentalist pontificator, asked some number of fundamentalist men this question:

“In your opinion, which of the following items of female dress cause a real potential for lust?”

  • short skirts
  • tight skirts
  • slit skirts
  • long skirts with slits to the knees
  • sleeveless blouses
  • low cut blouses and dresses
  • tight blouses
  • sheer blouses
  • T-shirts
  • V-neck dresses
  • form-fitting jeans
  • looser-fitting pants
  • shorts
  • one piece bathing suits

and then comes my favorite part where he feels led of the spirit to mention that:

We included pedal pushers and capris in the original survey but most of the men did not know what they are, so it turned out that the comments on those items were too irrelevant to include in this book.

Pedal pushers? I’m surprised there wasn’t also a question on whether bustles give you boners.

Of course, the results of asking a bunch of fundamentalist men what they think about low cut blouses is about as predictable as asking a bunch of NRA members what their views are on French gun laws — and just about as thoughtful and nuanced.

Unsurprisingly, when you’re a fundamentalist confirmation bias is actually considered a positive.

379 thoughts on “Dressing for the Lord”

      2. Dear Reformed Fundegelical:

        Make sure it is the LONG tie …

        Christian Socialist

    1. Speaking of which, I’m going to pour myself an adult beverage in a minute.

      2. My problem is that I have too many choices in the cupboard, and am having a hard time at the moment deciding which one I want to pour right now. 😮

        1. I know the feeling. I settled on wine. I could have had one of several kinds of vodka concoctions.

          I have vanilla vodka, citrus vodka, whipped cream vodka, and plain vodka. I heard that they make iced tea vodka, which is rumored to go well with lemonade.

          I also have Cointreau, creme de menthe, and various other stuff.

        4. Any recs for a good bourbon, Doctor? I’ve just been converted and am still expanding my palate. My favorites so far have been Bulleit and Buffalo Trace. Maker’s Mark is all right, but nothing special in my opinion.

        5. seanchaigirl, those are two excellent choices! Here are my recommendations for expanding your palette and getting a feel for what you like:
          1) Basil Hayden’s – spicy and smoky
          2) Four Roses Single Barrel – complex and sweeter with undertones of spice and earth (my favorite)
          3) Blantons – like Maker’s Mark, but with a soul

          And if you are feeling adventurous, you can try Angel’s Envy, finished in port casks. It is good, but a bit too smooth for my tastes.

  4. So, basically anything other than a garbage bag will make guys lust after me. Break out the burkhas, ladies! We’re walking talking embodiments of damnation no matter what we do!

    1. I’m pretty sure a garbage bag would make a fundy lust after you. They haven’t worked out yet that their lust is their issue to work on.

      2. James 1 (sort of)

        “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. “

        So temptation can be a good thing?

        “Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of wimmin: for wimmin cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth she any man:”

        Just a minor change. Husbands everywhere will affirm there is no difference at all in interpretation!

        “But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. “

        The lust is not imposed from the outside, but dwells already on the inside.

        “Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth preaching.”

        A difference which makes no difference is no difference.!

      3. Wouldn’t wearing a garbage bag make a woman a trashy lady? So, I guess that wouldn’t do, either.

    2. The garbage bag doesn’t help because your walk is too seductive! In other words, no matter what, we lose!

    3. If you put a garbage bag on then you will perspire. That will make the thin garbage bag cling to your skin closer than catwomans latex outfit. Every curve and crease will be exposed. Why, just the mention of such a torrid outfit has made me have wicked thoughts!

  5. Where is the Survey of Christian Women on the Subject of Men’s Clothing? Lust factors: puffy pirate shirt and doublet

      1. Back in the 70s a black entertainer was talking about reviving the codpiece. One of our camp preachers actually preached against the immorality of codpieces and showed us a picture! Let’s just say that it gave us a lot to talk about…and it wasn’t boring,either.

        1. This preacher actually thought codpieces were about to make a comeback? 🙄

        2. He was very passionate about it. “We have all these problems with girls’ clothes. Look what they want to do with the boys!”

          The kids thought it was pretty funny.

    2. Yeah, I’ve always wondered why there’s no mention of women’s eyes being drawn up by the V-shape that pants create when worn. Gals NEVER EVER feel cause to look at anything below the waist. No no.

      1. It’s because, well, you know, men are visual, and women are … I don’t know, but apparently not visual, so a man could be naked and it wouldn’t matter to a woman. But men still need to wear suits and ties while mowing the lawn, because reasons. #fundylogic

        3. Unfortunately, the “women totes aren’t visual at aaaaaall” thing can be heard even outside of the fundy camps.

          Or maybe not so unfortunately, depending on what the guys end up wearing (or not wearing)…

      2. And they never complain about ties, either, which are basically an arrow pointing to a dude’s junk.

    3. If they used the same logic to decide what men should wear, the MOGs would have to give up their fancy suits. Can’t have that.

      1. As one company advertises, they “constrain neither bag nor pipe.” I think that excessive … freedom … would be hard to get used to feeling. 😮

        2. The guys we bought my husband’s kilt from suggested always wearing underpants. His exact words were, “You don’t want to be one stiff breeze away from the sex offender’s registry.”

        4. Given the kind of weather you can get in Scotland in winter time, wearing something under your kilt might be wise. Say No To Frostbite.

      2. I believe a young man was barred from his Christian school’s not-prom until he changed out of his kilt and into some dowdy pants.

      3. 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

  6. after reading the weblink provided with the survey…… It literally seems like the though process of Sharia Law and muslim men. After growing up IFB in a pastors home…. Everytime I hear about Sharia Law, I think…… That’s pretty much exactly what we heard should be done in IFB pulpits my whole life at every campmeeting.

    1. Just saying the similarities between muslims and independent Baptists are very common.

      1. Fundy Rule #50
        As much as we dislike Muslims, we do admire the way they keep their women in line.

  7. When you are trained that a woman is an object of lust sent to tempt you, it doesn’t matter what they wear. I really think years of Fundy High chapels have done more to damage women’s worth that anything they can wear.

    This survey is like most of the stupid quizzes on Facebook. The questions are set in a way that will lead to fore-ordained conclusions.

    1. I tend to think — tongue in brain, of course — that modesty actually makes men better at lusting. Because hey, if you can lust after a woman in culottes, you can lust at just about anything!

      1. Way back at ol’ Fundy High, the cheerleaders wore full culottes as part of their uniform a couple of years. They rise just as much as a full skirt in a spin. Because of this, weights were added to the hems to alleviate the problem.
        The guys were all okay with that particular lack of scientific theory knowledge, by the way.

        4. Ahh, yes! Our cheerleaders had culottes with big pleats in contrasting colors. They had to have them specially made. They also had very strict rules about how they could move during cheers and routines.

        1. In the US military a few years ago, there was a softening of the policy regarding the presence of homosexuals in the ranks. It was called “Don’t ask, don’t tell (DADT)”. That applies here. Also, OPSEC.

          IOW, if I tell you ….

          Or it could be just pure conjecture on my part. Or impure gossip.

          😉

  9. My comments on one pastor’s comments:

    “I believe the most important issue in female modesty is the issue of a chaste heart.” Can you guess whose heart is at issue here? Certainly not the man’s – I mean, look at how he struggles with his flesh, fighting the good fight!

    “If the woman desires to please her Saviour and honor her brother in Christ, there is seldom an issue with the clothing she wears.” Unless he was brought up in fundyland. Then there is always (potentially) an issue.

    “I don’t need to see skin to cause me to lust. We men have pretty good imaginations.” No, you have pretty twisted imaginations when you’ve been sheltered from reality all your life.

  10. On a more serious note, I have no idea what to do with this. I mean, the presuppositions behind the question are…interesting to say the least. I wonder if they have a fill-in-the-blank area so I can scribble in whips, chains, and thigh-high leather boots?

    1. Hang on a sec, Dr F; I can’t seem to find your questionnaire. I do want to know your opinion on these matters. 😉

        3. In Old-School SF litfandom, there were many filksongs written about “a Lime Jello incident” at a con many years ago. Here’s what I remember of two of them.

          First, to the tune of “Pop Goes the Weasel”:

          “In a party at DisCon Two
          A pro was heard to bellow:
          ‘The sexiest thing in all the world
          Is a bathtub of Lime Jello!’
          The forces of fandom organized
          And searched throughout the town —
          How many packets does it take
          To jello a bathtub down?”

          and to the tune of Gilbert & Sullivan’s “Titwillow”:

          “In a bathtub at DisCon a certain pro sat
          In lime jello, lime jello, lime jello;
          And when he got out what fell onto the mat?
          Lime jello, lime jello, lime jello;
          He poured his fine self a humongous bheer
          Said to himself ‘This is mightily queer’,
          Called into the hall ‘There’s an orgy in here!
          With… lime jello, lime jello, lime jello.”

    2. Dear Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:

      Don’t forget the ceiling mirror and ice cubes…

      Christian Socialist

  11. “A few years ago, I preached a message about standards (including music, dress, and others). I asked for a show of hands as to how many men would admit their eyes were drawn to a woman’s crotch when she wore pants instead of a skirt or dress. More than two dozen hands went up (and who knows how many more were hesitant to make the public confession with their wives right next to them?). The group included many of the finest Christians I know, some of whom are ordained ministers and missionaries.”

    My favorite quote from the article. You wiminz must cover the crotch. Like a burqa maybe. Nope that’s too derned Arab.

    I love the look of a beautiful woman. And I never feel guilty for that.

    1. I love the look of a beautiful woman. And I never feel guilty for that.
      Yeah, for sure. To be fair, my mother was an artist, and I grew up in a household full of nude art and art books (and even have a book of nude art models to this day on my bookshelf, although my drawing days are all but behind me). So, I never felt uncomfortable or weird around the human body of either sex.

    2. They don’t talk about men’s clothing quite as much, but for some of us, a guy in a sharp suit can also be … distracting. 😀

        1. Wow! And then I made the mistake of scrolling down to the comment section. Argh! :-\

        2. I read that article for the pictures.

          Idris Elba in a suit. Be still my. . .heart.

    3. Instead of wearing skirts to prevent men from looking at their crotches, they could wear a men’s athletic cup. Would cause all sorts of confusing thoughts I’m sure.

    4. What are the chances the hands went up because in that micro-cosm, admitting something was perceived as being “tender” and therefore more spiritual? Looking at a crotch because of pants? What kind of weirdos… never mind, David Cloud gathering. Other side? well duh. Queu Sir Mix-a-Lot.

  12. After reading this, I feel like walking into one of these churches in anything less than a sack would be like throwing myself into a shark tank of lustful eyes following me everywhere or turning away as if I was Medusa and would turn them into stone. I’ve asked non-Christian guys about this: if they see girls in normal street dress and have problems with instantly picturing them naked. The universal response is a confused look accompanied with, “Um… no? That’s… sick.”

    My brother, who lived in the lust-obsessed fundie world for years said it became instantly easier not to lust the moment he left that world and everybody stopped talking about it.

    1. Interestingly, I have a good (female) friend from a middle-eastern country who tells me that pretty much everything wrong with Arab culture can be traced back to sexual repression. Since she is one, I won’t argue with her, but it made me think of fundamentalism.

    2. I KNOW, RIGHT?! The subculture that trumpets its purity is the one that finds sex everywhere!

      1. “Erm, ok Philemon, we’re going to do word associations now. Ready? Ok, good. Here goes: Woman”
        “Sex”
        “Hotel”
        “Sex”
        “Peanut butter”
        “Sex”
        “Chest of drawers”
        “Sex”
        “Reader’s Digest?”
        “Sex”
        “Area rug”
        “Sex”
        “Walgreens”
        “Sex”
        “Mothballs”
        “Sex”
        “Uh…I think I’m sensing a trend here…”

  13. We left out comments on pedal pushers and Capri pants because they were too irrelevant.

    Hence, the comments on everything else are just irrelevant. Well said sir, well said.

    1. David Cloud doesn’t need to be poked with a stick. He has one permanently stuck up his rear end.

  15. Another commenter: “Is it the man’s fault for not controlling his flesh and desires even though it is there for him to see? Absolutely! But it is equally the woman’s fault for not having enough godliness about her to dress modestly in the first place.”

    This makes me feel sorry for people who think this way. It’s pretty much how I thought. The combination of blaming the female for not being godly enough and flogging yourself for same. It’s sick, but being sick is largely not their fault. Nevertheless, when they try to spread the disease, even in ignorance, it must be challenged.

  16. Man: “I have authority over woman because I’m able to think clearly. I’m able to make the tough decisions that require proper judgement and careful consideration. We carry the burden of auth… what are you doing? Don’t show me your knee! Don’t you know that I can’t help myself if you show me you knee?? Don’t! please! don’t! Oh God!! now I have to betray my wife’s trust! what have you done! Oh ye woman with beautiful knees!!!”

    1. It’s funny how they want to run the fucking show but love to hold women accountable if they happen to give in to their “uncontrollable” desires.

      1. Thus Jack Schaap’s utter shock at his sentence – wasn’t his fault

      2. Agreed! The utter hypocrisy of women not being allowed to do or think anything on our own yet having control over men lusting over us just makes my head explode! I’m helpless and stupid until I am violated, then it’s all my fault because I wasn’t covered in a burlap sack from head to toe. In what freaking universe does this make ANY kind of sense?!?

  17. True story. When I was at M*******a Baptist Bible College way back in the day, “waist-less” (maternity) dresses were in vogue for females for a couple years. They covered everything a burqa would cover except the face, neck, lower arms and calves. We liked them because they were cute and comfortable – hid your flaws, modest – perfect. NOT! We were told by the dean of women that we couldn’t wear them because men could imagine that we were pregnant and that would give them lustful thoughts.

    2. Hahahahaha! Lust is the last thing on a person’s mind, when a baby is on the way.

      1. Not so fast Dr. Some guys like a pregnant woman. Or so I have heard. From a friend.

        2. ‘Spose there are. I can understand that, but the prospect of sleepless nights, diapers, and them bringing home all kinds of viruses from day-care or kindergarden pretty kills it for me.

    3. Not too surprising, coming from MBU. I’m guessing by the time this style was in vogue, Dr. Weniger was president, but Dr. Cedarholm seemed to be of the mindset that pregnant woman (he probably didn’t call them pregnant) shouldn’t be seen. My sister-in-law got that impression when she showed up on campus in that condition. Who was the dean of women at the time…Hollowood, Pohl, Hermes? I really couldn’t imagine it being Mrs. Auckland.

      1. Another Maranatha memory was when they started to allow women to wear pants in the dorm and for softball uniforms. Dr. Weniger (it was his first year there and my senior year) had a special chapel time to explain the changes. About the pants for softball he said, “…and we’ll make them loose, so their whatever doesn’t show.” He used the word “whatever” quite a bit. Maranatha has been on a slippery slope toward worldliness ever since;)

    4. Damned if you do; damned if you don’t.

      No way to win.

      (Which is why the Gospel offers us FREEDOM because the law kills.)

  19. I’m a little confused when it comes to “form-fitting jeans” and
    “looser-fitting pants” – so form-fitting pants are ok?

    1. Nothing is OK!
      Haven’t you gotten that message yet?
      Whatever you wear, it’s wrong! Whatever you do is wrong!
      How many of these books do we have to write before you understand?

    2. Oh dear. The skinny jeans I’m wearing today would probably not pass muster!

      1. No they would not. Nothing wrong with you, but skinny jeans must stop. Yoga pants must stop as well. Unless you can wear them without the constant need to hike them up in a very public and demonstrative dance. Please for the love of God!

    3. As others said — there’s no way to win.

      I think it was phrased that way though to keep putting limits on people:

      Earnest yet “modern” Christian woman: “I won’t wear tight jeans, but I think these loose-fitting pants are OK.”

      MoG: “NOOOO! According to my survey, even loose fitting pants will cause men to lust! Stop trying to see how close to the edge of the cliff you can get.”

  20. Having not been raised an IFB, for the life of me I can’t fathom why they’re so obsessed about sexual purity. I know what Jesus taught. I get it. And yes, modesty and a reasonable chastity are good things, worthy values. Pornography (for example) is a bad thing. It dehumanizes. But good grief, we’re sexual creatures.

    I went to a Christian college. A movie was shown in the lounge of the student center one Saturday evening. It was a secular film — I don’t recall what. I arrived late, and as I went to sit down next to a friend of mine, I noticed that he was . . . um . . . how shall I put this delicately . . . “excited.” (It was VERY obvious.) The next night at church, this poor kid went forward at the altar call, which included, of course, the opportunity to “get right with God” about sin in our lives. He was crying his eyes out. It didn’t take much to figure out what the issue was — he’d gone back to his room the previous evening after the movie and . . . well . . . you get my drift.

    This was during the time of the beginning of my long exit from evangelicalism, and I couldn’t help but think, “How is this guy going to learn to accept himself and his own humanity when he thinks he’s going to lose his salvation if he jerks off?” I couldn’t bring myself to address the subject with him, but I really felt sorry for him. I think it’s indicative, though, of how warped fundygelicalism’s views on sexuality are.

    1. Well, God killed Onan for it, so it must be serious business…

      (Never mind that masturbation and what Onan was apparently killed for doing are two completely different things, nuances are clearly lost on fundies.)

    2. I had a young man (15 or 16) come to me and explain that he couldn’t stop thinking about girls and self stimulating himself. He thought he was an awful person and a wicked sinner and surely on his way to hell. He had prayed that God would help him with his problem but it wasn’t going away. He had even though about getting a male chastity belt (I didn’t even know it was a thing), apparently it is sharp and pokey on the inside to prevent becoming aroused. This poor kid was beyond screwed up because he had internalized all the preaching about how sex is bad.

      I pointed out that scripture talks about wrong sex acts very specifically such as bestiality. At no point though does it specifically address self stimulation. Now, if it specifically addresses something that is extremely uncommon then wouldn’t it address, specifically, something that probably every male on the planet from the beginning of time has done (yes, there’s probably .00001% of the population that hasn’t and I can’t speak for females)? When he thought about this he realized he wasn’t a worthless awful person and he ended up being ok. I just can’t help but wonder how much damage has been done to others.

  22. One man mentioned that certain women dressed with too much fashion. Another said that even knee length skirts could be a distraction. So, who is the ultimate judge of what I can wear? It pretty much means that in order to please every man, I’d have to wear a long sleeved, loose, non stylish blouse with a long (to my feet), baggy, non stylish skirt. And even then, if I accidentally move in a sensual way (if my hips move at all when I walk) then I can still cause a man to lust.

  24. There is nothing natural about Fundies. Everything is twisted and manipulated and made ugly. Do they not even think that doing a survey of different types of things that make a man feel lustful might make him…….feel lustful? They are so ridiculous they don’t even know how ridiculous they are.

  25. The most beautiful young lady I’ve ever seen wears those modern, fancy jeans and is gracious and kind to everyone.

    Wicked woman!

    B.R.1

  26. The underlying assumption is that clothes somehow create lust.
    Folks, it doesn’t matter what the gift is wrapped in.
    Only fetishists are turned on by empty clothing.
    For the rest of us, it’s the presence of a human of the opposite sex (or the same sex, for some) inside the skirt and blouse, or the tent, that arouses us.

    1. “The underlying assumption is that clothes somehow create lust”
      Get rid of clothes completely, get rid of lust. Simple. 😉

  27. When I saw the title “Dressing for the Lord,” at first I thought it was a nudist tract. That, after all, is dressing the way the Lord created us.

      1. I awarded myself the doctorate a few years ago, but I only started advertising it again the other day.

        2. Meh. I won’t respect you until you start calling yourself Dr. Big Gary, Doctor of Perambulation. You have to start with Dr. or it doesn’t count. As you would know if you ever read Sword of the Lord…

        3. Phil Kidd calls himself “Doctor” even when he’s talking about his car wreck. It must have been a very learned car wreck.

  28. I must admit I have a quote in this book! It’s a ridiculous book! David Cloud was my hero. How could I have been so stupid…..

    1. David Cloud is so mean spirited that many fundies even view him as a stick in the mud, always complaining about everyone other than himself being a compromiser. I had some contact with the man. Even in very simple non confrontational conversation about mundane things, he comes across as an overly aggressive and defensive jerk. I have no use for him.

      This is what happens when someone interprets “earnestly contending for the faith” as being a jackass for the cause of Christianity.

      1. “Even in very simple non confrontational conversation about mundane things, he comes across as an overly aggressive and defensive jerk.”

        I’ve never met the guy, but I could have guessed that.

        1. I should add, that was me as a fundy as well. I was such a prick, and many years later still have to consciously choose graciousness. I hate that part about my upbringing more than any other aspect.

        2. Looking back at myself as a Fundy, I really dislike the judgment, arrogant ass that I was. That is why Maya Angelou’s quote — ‘I did then what I knew how to do. Now that I know better, I do better.’ strikes a chord with me. Forgiving myself is a hard thing to do.

        3. Wow; I can totally relate. I remember when I went to “secular” school for my grad degree and met all these wonderful and kind people, and I thought to myself, “(1) I’m a total asshat. (2) Fundamentalism really is a cancer to society.”

          I make fun and mock, but I can’t judge too harshly, because I been there, done that, and got the a-hole t-shirt.

    2. By the way. That is not a stone at you for following him. I was quite the judgmental jerk myself.

  29. “Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society.”
    – Mark Twain

    1. No, “Manners….maketh…..man.

      “Do you know what that means? Then let me teach you a lesson.”

  30. I’m stating the obvious here, but the issue is not about Lust or Purity. It is about Control Over Others.

    1. I actually, in this case, think control over others takes a backseat to trying to find a way to blame the object of his lust for his own temptation to sin. Seriously, there is obvious immodesty, but you cannot dress yourself to help guard every man or woman from his or her lust. If a woman wears sandals, there is a dude out there with a foot fetish. If she wears boots to cover up her feet, there is a dude who fantasizes about her wearing her boots in the sack.

      1. Wait await second. Wimmin don’t lust. That’s because wimmin aren’t visual, they prefer touch, and there’s no touching until the honeymoon, haymen.

  31. To ask the hierarchical patriarchal authoritarian system to control their lust is to ask them to admit that they have at least one weakness. This is a threat to their reputation, their authority, and to their freedom. So the burden is on the women to dress appropriately. But it is not just a matter of control by the men over the entire system (they seem willing to control everyone else but themselves–but that is freedom).
    Throughout history and various societies, women bear the burden of showing the world what makes their culture different than any other. The burkhas for the Taliban, dress code for the fundamentalists, at one point in history a heavy set wife indicated the husband was a good provider…etc.
    While most say fashion trends for women are about making women more attractive to men, it is also a statement on cultural ideals and expectations and roles.

    1. I would def tie it in to honor-shame culture. It reminds me of this one Sopranos episode when the young buck develops a thing for Tony’s wife. His wise old patriarch told him, “You must kill the man to take his wife.” In honor-shame culture women are essentially possessions (or at least means to an end). So yeah, one musn’t ever display weakness.

  32. I am just surprised that David Cloud asked anyone for their opinion on anything since he hates everyone.

  33. Other things that make Fundamentalist preachers lust:

    Two balloons on a stick
    Sticks
    Balloons
    12 year old girls
    6 year old girls
    6 year old boys

    What Cloud (and Fundamentalism) have failed to realize is that what makes men lust is their sinfulness.

    1. As the Evangelist Mark put it:

      6 He said to them, “Isaiah prophesied rightly about you hypocrites, as it is written,

      ‘This people honors me with their lips,
      but their hearts are far from me;
      7 in vain do they worship me,
      teaching human precepts as doctrines.’
      8 You abandon the commandment of God and hold to human tradition.”
      9 Then he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition!”
      …
      14 Then he called the crowd again and said to them, “Listen to me, all of you, and understand: 15 there is nothing outside a person that by going in can defile, but the things that come out are what defile.”
      …
      21 “For it is from within, from the human heart, that evil intentions come: fornication, theft, murder, 22 adultery, avarice, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, folly. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”

      Mark 7: 6-23

  34. Just when I think I’m past all the anger & confusion that fundamentalism gave me, I read something that brings it all back. There were so many issues – Bible versions, music, TV, movies, number of church services a week, books, magazines….the list of things to be controlled is so long! But this! That somehow I am responsible for the thoughts that run through someone else’s head, is the worst, at least for me.

    If I wear a skirt or dress, I cause a man to lust because he can see my legs. If I wear pants, I cause a man to lust because he can see my crotch. If I wear a V-neck top, the same since it points to my breasts. High heels cause my hips to sway. Bathing suits…well, you know!

    So what am I to do? Everything I do is wrong, and for some reason I’m going to stand in judgement before the Throne because I’ve caused a plethora of men to lust, simply by getting dressed and going out in public.

    Or perhaps men should take responsibility for their own thoughts & behavior and stop blaming me.

  35. From the aforementioned survey comments:

    “I am 55 years old and I am BROKENHEARTED over the dress of a great number of females in the churches I visit. Oh, if I could only talk to moms and dads. I have never been married but lived in the world many years. I beg you, preacher, tell them that wearing ANYTHING that draws attention to a particular area, accentuating ANY form or flesh, is a great distraction for me. ”

    Anything?

    1. This guy needs to deal with the fact that he is a sexual being. He hasn’t gotten married, which might not be his own fault (especially if he sees women like he seems to), but he’s probably also demonised every form of appopriate sexual outlet for himself. He’s probably never allowed himself to have genuine friendships with women, either, which means it is easy for him to continue seeing them as mere objects that tempt him.

      He ought to see a counselor and see if he can get a better grip on how to cope with the fact that he is a sexual being, and how to treat the women around him as real people.

      1. ” He’s probably never allowed himself to have genuine friendships with women”

        Of course not, men and women can’t be “just” friends. It invariably leads to sex!

        1. If that’s true, my friendship with a 90-year-old widow from church is not at all what I thought it was.

    2. Sounds like a pervy old man—a guy in his mid 50’s getting all hot and bothered by teenagers?

      1. Only slightly OT – a few years ago I was at the Registrars getting my ID for grad school, and all these kids kept thronging by, and I was like, “Man, it must be that time of year when all the highschoolers visit college and get free stuff.” Then I realized they were students. At college. And I realized I was old.

    3. I am not a mother but I would love for some man to come say something like this to me….I want to be able to respond “Aw, bless your soul, just because you are a pervert doesn’t mean she is immodest or a slut or a whore. It just means you’re a pervert.”

      1. Really. If I get, um, excited whenever I see someone wearing a hat, do I have the right to demand that nobody wear hats?

        Sometimes people just need to get over themselves.

    4. Doesn’t that point out who has the problem? Have you ever noticed that the men preaching modesty and purity for women are the perviest of the pervs?

      1. My sister and I have long discussed this very fact about the pastor of our church growing up. He was so sex obsessed. I was 20 years old and had my first boyfriend and his only advice to me was ‘don’t let him touch you because all boys want is to get in your pants’…..which is ironic because he didn’t believe in women wearing pants *snicker*. He also advised from the pulpit that parents should not allow their girls to ride in cars with boys alone….’because we all know what happens in cars.’

  36. Forgive me for being crude but does anyone else think that when the MOG is compiling a list of sinful feminine attire, he is probably typing with one hand?

    1. I’ve long recognised that when a guy is mentioning his list of things a girl either should or shouldn’t wear, he is listing his own particular fetish. There’s a reason my dad thinks it’s a pity whenever a girl cuts her hair short :/

  37. Thinking with your dick: A guide for women.

    I’ll never understand why women can’t just be human beings too.

    1. RobM, don’t be ridiculous.

      Oh, wait a minute. I’m one of those wimminz David Cloud is warning you about. Don’t listen to me.

  38. I wonder what the reaction would be if a similar list came out with ‘in your opinion what which of the following situations would cause a man to want to kill someone? Or ‘in your opinion which of the following situations would cause a man to want to steal? Or covet something? Or put an idol before God? Or bear false witness or indulge in gluttony or slothfulness? Or what would make you commit the sin of Pride?

    Why the constant picking on lust? There are a lot of other things to deal with in the Christian life. How about some equal time for some of the other deadly sins.

    1. Well, now. They know it is a personal responsibility to keep from stealing and from murdering. And it isn’t quite so easy to shuffle off responsibility for those things on to others!

      It is easy enough to lock your car. But you don’t do it to remove lust or coveting. You do it to make stealing harder to do because you know you can’t remove the desire in someone else’s heart to do wrong.

      Beside that, lust is rather more of an emotion, often invisible, than it is an action. If you really want to control someone, making them responsible for the actions and attitudes of someone else, especially invisible things they can’t see. Then you have them worrying over literally everything trivial and they haven’t the time to see though your nonsense to what is important.

      Make women focus on what they are allowed to wear and you won’t have women complaining about not being paid a fair salary. You can prevent women from being worried about their civil rights. You condition them to thinking that they have to obey men because, as a woman, they are somehow inferior, unable to make good decisions, and are less than a human being.

      Muslims say they enforce draconian dress standards on their women because they “treasure” them and want to “protect” them. But they do not want to empower them. They only give a woman’s testimony half-weight in court. If she is attacked, she is more guilty than the man who attacked her.

      Christian fundies use the same words and the same tactics.

      1. Exactly rtg! Imagine a person being caught with stolen property saying that it wasn’t his fault, someone left a window open a crack and they noticed it, were tempted and broke in and stole. That is laughable but a woman being responsible for a man’s lust is somehow believable to the Fundy mind. It is mind boggling.

  39. I believe in a modest dress code that covers nakedness. I was raised an ultra conservative Baptist. I have learned that I am a very sexual creature. I like my wife to dress sexy because I would rather be lusting after her than another woman. She does this at home only. It may seem stupid to others but it works for us. I have searched the scriptures for the IFB dress code but I haven’t found most of it unless you squint really hard and use your imagination. It has taken me a long time to read the scripture and ask what does this say instead of what do Baptists say this says. It has been very hard on me and I have more questions than answers. Many personal convictions I have, I would never push on others. I have talked with my children about them and explained that when they leave out on their own, it will be their decisions on what they do and wear. I also tell them that they will always be welcome in my house no matter what. The love I have for them has given me a small in-sight into how God loves me and has brought up a lot more questions in my life.

  40. I sometimes go to a (distinctly non-Fundy) Baptist church Sunday evenings. I went yesterday and the sermon was about a particularly harrowing episode in the life of King David – the rape of his daughter Tamar by her half- brother Amnon. It was stressed that what happened to her was not her fault but I would suspect that a lot of fundies would disagree. This episode follows on after David’s sin with bathsheba and the murder of Uriah, and even that is given a particular spin by fundies. One Fundy article I was unfortunate enough to read – “the sin of Bathsheba” – claimed that Bathsheba sinned by bathing where David could see her. Never mind that David should have been fulfilling his duties as king instead of slouching around his palace and playing Peeping Tom… Anyway, it was largely bathsheba’s fault. So I wonder what sin Tamar is supposed to have committed to arouse lust in her half-brother?? Getting inside the head of a Fundy can be a very disturbing experience.

    1. She obviously wore a low cut v-neck top and was reaching for something she dropped on the floor. It could be just as simple as that!

      1. Wow, I never realized that the bend and snap was in the Bible! 😮

        1. A sin not to be aware of danger? Does it say in the bible she did not cry out?

        2. It doesn’t matter what the Bible says or doesn’t say. What matters is the fundy opinion.

      2. That’s exactly what our pastor said – fundies all parrot each other

      4. I despise how Gothard makes up stuff the Bible never says (especially regarding Abigail). Still makes me mad over twenty years after I read it.

  41. And the survey says……

    “Another apparel item that may be worth mentioning is knee-high leather boots. These seem to be more and more prevalent among Christian women. In my opinion, these boots scream sensuality and area real potential for generating lust. I may be completely off base on this as my view is certainly tainted from years of pornography, womanizing, immorality, spending a lot of time at bars…etc”.

    1. Maybe this guy shouldn’t have been included in the survey. Wouldn’t he skew the data?

    4. Oh for Pete’s sake! Knee length boots?!?! When I was a fundy, we wore them with skirts to keep our legs warm!

      One more example of this fundy truth: You are a woman, therefore you cannot win. Ever.

  42. In my mind this whole issue of dress is a two fold thing for fundies. First it’s a control issue. Nobody wants to hurt or create problems for others so they have made it impossible for women to not be a problem for men. This keeps women so busy trying to get it right they can’t see the process for what it really it. It also demoralizes the women, making them feel helpless and wicked which makes them controllable. For men it’s the idea that they can’t help themselves and so when they have an impure thought they are weak, helpless, and wicked making them controllable as well.

    Second is when you make the men not accountable for their thoughts/actions then the MoG isn’t either. Invariably when a pastor/sunday school teacher/etc gets cause abusing women the first questions are “What was she doing to make him do that” and “What was she wearing to make him lust?” By making the followers believe that it’s the victims fault the establishment practically ensures that they can commit this atrocious actions and get away with it. Even when they get caught, like Schaap, they maintain a large following of sycophants. They can deny or at least marginalize what they did, maintaining the power and control they had.

    1. “What was she doing to make him do that”?

      Usual Fundy answer: Being immodest flirting blah blah blah blah …
      Translation: Existing.

    2. When I told my father that my bil had begun molesting my daughter when she was three years old, he asked if she had “led him on.” That is the Fundy mind in a nutshell. A nutshell is all it takes to contain that kind of brain, too. You cannot talk sense to a person who thinks like that.

      1. That’s awful! How does a three year old… never mind. I’ll just go bang my head against the wall now.

        1. We blame the victim for what happens to them. That is the fundy way.

          We so lightly denigrate the character of others and criticize even little faults, and think nothing about how what we do reduces their humanity. And of course, we accept no blame for ourselves. It is an all-or-nothing game. There can be no “compromise.” There can be no repentance. You either destroy your opponent or be completely destroyed yourself.

          And it is so easy to destroy someone if they are weak and powerless. A child molester gets caught — so it is the child’s fault! That is so — so — fundamentalist.

          That is not to say that the molester might have had issues where he was the victim. In point of fact, we know that victims of abuse often go on to become victimizers themselves. They don’t know how to respond to situations appropriately. It is bad enough within families. It is worse with hierarchical authority like a church or school or such.

          And perhaps we need to recognize that people need to be redeemed. We make molesters to be monsters. We dehumanize them. We leave them no room to be anything but monsters. Once monsterhood has been conveyed there is no forgiveness, no remedy, no grace. What was bad has been made worse.

          Perhaps we need to teach subjects in our schools such as how to apologize, how to forgive, how to change our own behavior and how to help others change their behavior. Right now we just sort of figure it will all work out, and it doesn’t. Or we think if we completely destroy someone we can make them go away and not have to deal with them ever again. But we don’t solve the problems.

        2. I don’t know the answer to the problem of what to do with my bil, rtg. I called the police, they put him in jail. He had a thirty year career of molesting young girls. I think he is a monster, I don’t think he will ever change. He had opportunities, he was confronted twice to my knowledge. I put much of the responsibility for his actions on those who spoke to him about it and left it there. If it had been publicized, I would have been warned. There really are some things that make monsters, social outcasts, out of a person. In my book, child molesters are on that list. Having said that, he is still alive, he is living back in the community now. On some level we do have to deal with them as human beings.

        3. First, I am so sorry about what happened to your daughter and the response. Sickening.

          Then, I have a relative I never met growing up because he is a habitual, sexual predator of young boys. The last I heard about him, he had been picked up again for predation, at the ripe old age of 80. These kind of people need to be watched closely, and kept away from possible victims.

        4. Miriam, I can’t judge you harshly one little bit. I understand how you feel more than I can divulge. But let me say this.

          I truly feel that people are not monsters, that we should not treat them as monsters. People who sin in such ways need to be fixed or punished or both. But in order to fix them one needs to be willing to understand where things have gone wrong for them. Somehow someone needs to be able to say that they can be redeemed. People without hope become monsters because they have been robbed of hope and humanity.

          Anyone can be turned into a monster. Just remove hope. Remove all acceptance. They will try to find it where they can. If acceptance in appropriate ways is not available, they will find it however and wherever they can. People have to have hope to survive. They have to be accepted, somehow, by someone.

          This is not to say that your bil should be trusted around children. But none of us live to ourselves or die to ourselves. We are who we are and we do what we do in context. We do not “become” something entirely on our own.

          But in society and in families we often don’t care. We treat each other like trash and complain when the one we trash behaves inappropriately. (I am NOT saying you did this!!!!) Families are broken up because not because we go out of our way to be unkind, but because we don’t go out of our way to be kind. We stop conversation because we don’t want to admit any fault of our own and we don’t want to bother understanding others.

          Removing stigma can heal both wounded parties. If Jesus’ death means anything, then it should be that God doesn’t see us as monsters, but as redeemable.

          Take this, please, in the spirit I am giving it. I am not criticizing you. As usual, I am rambling as I try to give complex issues the though they deserve. And as usual, I don’t have any final answers.

        5. If I believe in anything, it’s Jesus’ death for sinners, of whom I am one.

          However, some people, even saved, have ingrained patterns of behavior and they need to be lovingly watched. Pedophiles shouldn’t be involved with the children’s ministry, or left alone with anyone’s children (I’m thinking of family members). People with a recurring habit of theft probably shouldn’t do the church books. Some recovering substance abusers should never be around drugs or alcohol. It’s too tempting for them.

          Sometimes people are so open to Jesus’ grace and the work of the Spirit that they do a complete change. Others, unfortunately, learn to live in forgiveness, but they still have problems with bad habits that can be devastating to others. We are asked to be a forgiving people, and we are also called to be wise. I work with young children, and I prefer to err on the side of wisdom when I am choosing staff for the children’s ministry I lead.

        7. Thanks…as a mandatory reporter, I have been involved in too many sad stories, some of which didn’t need to happen if a little more care had been taken in who was appointed to do what.

        8. Oh, I agree with mandatory reporting. I would do that myself if the situation arises. And it may well, no matter where I wind up working. You have to be wise. You have to think about who you are dealing with and their experiences.

          My concern is that all around us, people are creating monsters and problems for the future in the way they treat people. I think a lot of it is preventable.

        9. I agree. I think many people, with the right kind of help and love, can get better.

        10. I agree with treating people well, rtg, to avoid creating problems. The thing is though, I must offend someone. I would rather offend a repeat molester than my harmed daughters. He was trusting and accepted into our family and he destroyed us. If we had treated him badly, maybe I would feel guilt. We did not.

        11. I had no thought you had treated him badly. The bent occurred before you knew him.

          People interpret Romans 5-7 as saying that our own personal sin enslaves us. And it does. But sins of some also enslave those who didn’t sin. Thus tragedies, bad things happening to good people.

          I wish God were more willing to bless than He seems to be. Every so often I get a glimpse of hope, enough to grab onto, only to have much of it snatched away. Finding the balance mentally is hard. But I hope you are well-blessed as you move forward.

        12. The thing is, rtg, where does personal responsibility come into this equation? We are responsible for what we do as adults. He made a decision every time he molested the many children he molested. Every. Time. He was reasonably affluent, reasonably educated, came from a reasonably stable family. I know people who were terribly abused who have not hurt others. Perhaps God can forgive him, that will have to be enough for him. I do not forgive. I do not hate him, I do not wish ill on him but I do not forgive him either.

        13. Personal responsibility is part of the equation. But only a part. Your bil’s choices were wrong. Period.

          Forgiving doesn’t mean excusing or liking. It is a release from indebtedness. The man owes a debt he cannot pay.

          If you cannot forgive him, well, you can only do what you can do. But as long as you hold the debt you are tied to him in a way. And curiously, Jesus told us to ask God to forgive us our indebtedness as we forgive those who are indebted to us.

          But as I said, I can’t judge you. Lord knows there are things I have had a hard time forgiving. But we do not want to be forever chained to the monsters in our lives.

          My sister and I suffered a lot of abuse in our childhood at the hands of our parents. They disowned us. My dad is still alive and, as far as I know is as mean as ever. He once claimed he never forgave or forgot any wrong done to him, and I believe it.

          I made the decision one day to forgive my parents. I wrote down the good and the bad, then I rejected the bad and decided to keep the good. That was my choice, my decision. Every once in a while I have to revisit some things, but on the whole I have kept them from being a mental and spiritual burden.

          My sister, on the other hand, never forgave and has grown very bitter. She almost always seems to be in a “rebellious mode.” She has been much more controlled by our parents than I have been, even after all ties were severed.

          Again, I don’t judge you one bit. My experiences are my own. Your mileage may vary. You have definitely been a blessing to me, and your perspective is one I greatly value. I am not telling you that you are wrong. I do want you to be happy.

        14. Thank you rtg. My father abused all his daughters. I suppose I have forgiven him. I know he was a tortured man. I got glimpses of who he could have been and it makes me sad. My bil on the other hand, I have simply dismissed. I know he is alive, I know he would still be molesting if I had not called the police. It is funny but when it comes right down to it, I don’t think I know what forgiveness really is. Intellectually I know, in my gut I feel that it is futile even non-existent. I do not hate the man. He has simply ceased to be a part of my world. He refuses all responsibility, maybe if he owned his crime I would feel differently? His debt is his, I refuse to have any part of it. He is responsible and now he is suffering the consequences of his actions. When I made it impossible for him to escape those consequences, I released myself and my children from the burden of his actions. He doesn’t control us any more. The only thing that I feel is still my job is to make sure that the people who are helping him deny his responsibility get called on it. He is dangerous. He will re-offend given the opportunity. It is a horrible truth. I am not afraid to speak that truth.

        15. You *may* have forgiven him, in a way. And taking care to not allow his actions to be justified in the eyes of others is, in its own way, a mercy. You aren’t pursuing a vendetta. You simply want the bad behavior to not be repeated.

          Much the way we talk here on SFL, I think. I experienced some things I absolutely hated and which will not allow me ever to think of going back to. But I do not wish ill on any of them, even the ones who were hurtful. It is sufficient that I release my feelings that they owe me for the hurt. That doesn’t mean we don’t call them out for hurtful behavior or philosophy.

          Forgiveness is a tricky sort of issue. God forgave David, yet still held him accountable. According to Jesus’ major parable on forgiveness, if we do not forgive others, He may rescind forgiveness He has given to us.

          Sounds like you are pursuing a balance, and I thank you for sharing.

        16. Thank you, Marty. I just gave up right then, got up and walked out. After a comment like that, there is nothing to say.

        1. Ah, Dr. Fundystan, thank you. I should have expected it. I shouldn’t have been shocked. Still, you expect certain things of a grandfather.

      3. “Did she lead him on?”
        Who the hell cares? She’s three!
        Who even asks questions like that?!!?!

      4. Miriam,

        I am so sorry you had to go through that. I personally have come to the conclusion that there are monsters in the world. Child molesters, rapists, as well as physical, sexual, and mental abusers are very high on that list. I personally believe that these people are not fixable, at least not with our current understanding of the human mind, genetics, and technology that we have available.

        1. Dear HiddenexFundie, Thank you and I agree. We were told by the court that considering his psych assessment, the chances of rehabilitation, (which are low for child sexual abusers any way) were very low. That he is what they call an opportunistic offender and should the opportunity present itself, these people take it. It is that simple. They have either no empathy, no morals or no will power. They are dangerous people.

  43. I am reminded of one of David Letterman’s top ten lists of days gone by. I think it was “Top Ten Amish Pick-up Lines.” One line became my all time favorite and it went something like:
    “My, but thou dost look sexy in that shapeless black dress!”

    And no, I never use it on women, Amish or not. 😉

    1. I remember that bit. My favorite was “If our religion didn’t forbid the use of telephones, I would ask thee for thy number.”

  44. When I worked at PCC, my wife wasn’t technically allowed to wear pants *in our own home*, as I recall. From the pulpit, PCC didn’t teach pants were immodest so much as they tought that pants “pertaineth to a man”. Of course, culottes (crotched garments, originally men’s clothing) don’t count, because reasons. I think the rules may have made some exceptions for ice skating or sleepwear at some point, because the absurdity starts to reach critical mass otherwise, but intellectual consistency was never PCC’s strong point IMO.

    FWIW, I’m not an NRA member so I don’t count, but French citizens can legally buy handguns, “assault weapons”, and magazines that would get them thrown in prison in California or New York state, albeit with much more red tape than one would endure in a pro-gun state like Vermont or the Czech Republic. French criminals and mass shooters, of course, are allowed to buy machineguns and rocket propelled grenades via Belgium…

    Speaking of France, the term “culottes” in modern French refers to panties, not fluffy pants. That could lead to some interesting English-French-English translations of Fundy U rulebooks.

    1. Pfft, why would you need to wear pants for ice skating? I have a very vivid image of a girl “iceskating” in a straight, calf-length denim skirt. I felt so sorry for her.

    2. I remember reading James Spurgeon book “Texas Baptist Crucible” and the discussion that went around that place. the women were not allowed to wear nightwear that had legs.

      1. Nothing that separates a women (or little girl’s) legs is what we were told. WHY? That is just flippin’ stupid.

      2. When my fundy FIL was still a pastor, he and his wife spent a short time living in a house owned by the church he pastored. While they lived there, if my nieces visited, they had to sleep in nightgowns instead of pajamas.

  45. I’d like to list all of the things that might make a man appear sexy and insist that the menfolk just stop doing it.

    Scruffiness. It’s so darn cute. Either be clean shaven at all times or grow out that beard to Amish lengths, but don’t make me have to look at that growing out stubbly face.

    Firefighters. I struggle with this so much, that just the sight of fire trucks makes me a little giddy. Firefighters make women think you are strong and protective and willing to risk danger for her. this is such a strong potential lust pit, that If you are a fire fighter, it would be best if you just told women you were an accountant, to avoid possible lustful dreams on her part.

    Having red hair. It just screams passion. I shouldn’t think that you might be passionate.

    Kilts. If you are cool enough with yourself to wear a kilt, I will wonder what’s underneath. Now I’m sinning.

    Having a puppy with you. Women will see a man playing with a puppy, and naturally think that he may be a nurturing man and be a good father to her children. This makes her hormones go wild. Be careful about playing with kittens too. And maybe any baby animal. Male Zookeepers should tend to the adult animals just to be on the safe side.. You don’t want to start any ovaries twitching.

    2. firefighters are awesome. Our turnout gear is pretty straightforward though. ill ask the chief if we can wear a kilt the next time we run a call where we rescue a kitty in a tree

      1. Can I have a picture of that please? It sounds extremely lustworthy, and I’m going to need to warn others about this.

      1. Oh and cowboy hats! Particularly with tight jeans and no shirt… Pardon me while I clean the drool off my keyboard.

      1. Eh, not all uniforms. But gimme a Marine in dress blues ……. be still, my soul.

    6. A male single friend adopted a dog, explaining that he did it because:
      1. It’s a chick magnet; and
      2. A lone man walking around the neighborhood or hanging out in the park draws suspicion from the neighbors and the police, but if he’s walking a dog, people assume he’s legit.

  46. This line from the article:

    “Some of the men also mentioned LOW-RIDING JEANS as a cause for serious concern, because not only do they totally emphasize the woman’s figure but they are also suggestive of a bare midriff even if covered with a T-shirt.”

    WTF?!? How could it be suggestive of a bare midriff if it’s covered up?

    3. Well if the tshirt wasn’t there then the midriff would be exposed, so obviously women should wear 2 layers of clothing at all times.

    1. Apparently, even psycho killers wore suits and ties back then.

      1. It’s a film classic about the good/bad sides of religion, beautifully filmed and well-acted.

        Of course, I will confess that I am from the generation that always found Robert Mitchum pretty sexy, even when he was creepy. I guess that means I have to crawl back into my burqa.

  48. Pedal Pushers? Well, they certainly push my pedals. Is it getting hot in here???

    And btw, what on earth are pedal pushers?

      1. “Firefox has detected that the server is redirecting the request for this address in a way that will never complete.

        This problem can sometimes be caused by disabling or refusing to accept cookies.”

        A server somewhere along the line, watching out for my moral integrity.

        1. Well, these are from a catalog published in the late 50s, courtesy of Google Images. Not much to look at!

      1. Shorter than true Capri pants. Pedal pushers fall just below the knee, and are pretty fitted. Capri pants come closer to the ankle, and may or may not be fitted.

    3. I think some American clothing designer coined the phrase “pedal pushers” so that fine, chaste, young American girls could wear them without the stigma of those evil Mediterranean European sinners in their Capri Pants.

  50. Your attempts at lust-proofing are futile, dear fundies. Any fashion can become a turn-on by association. How on earth did Mr. Gothard develop his strange tastes in clothing and hair styles, after all?

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