I love the way the woman on the cover of the porno video box was completely covered from neck to ankles to wrists, but … wait for it … wearing slacks!
Yeah, that’s exactly what porno advertising looks like, folks …
And what was on fire behind the Vietnam vet in his wheelchair?
I seriously don’t know if this movie is satire or if it was intended seriously– which, of course, is a characteristic of some of the very best satire.
It looked like one of those long fuses that you’d see on a cartoon, leading to a big black bomb behind the counter.
It’s no satire, sadly!
It’s from an old 1980’s production called “America, you’re too young to die”. It’s on VHS at a number of libraries still:
Also, apologies, UncleWilver. I didn’t mean to reply to your post off the subject of poor Lassie. This was supposed to be a separate post altogether. Our nation has degraded so much that I can’t even properly post like our founding fathers did.
Thanks Obama!
Since I am of the worst digressors (while not yet in the official Scrabble dictionary, I’m sure it’s a valid word) I know, your comment fit just fine.
Lassie come home, ‘Merica come back,– just don’t reference that whiny kid wailing “Shane, come back“. That was a decent movie ruined with a bad ending. Whiny kids spoil anything they are connected to.
Whiny adults are even worse. Especially Christians.
Is the narrator William Federer?
The warbling and revisionist-history of the lyrics caused me to stop this early. If anyone hears anything worth noting later in the song, please share it.
To all of you vets here on SFL, thank you for your service to our country. To any of you who, like me, have children currently serving, a great big Thank You to them, also.
Ditto!!
I got to about the second line.
That was more than enough.
Thank you, UV. I just came back from dinner with my vet son-in-law and my daughter, who is an army vet and a full time member of the Ohio National Guard. I am very proud of them both.
+
Please excuse the’+’ sign, the cat was helping me type.
(I don’t need no George, I have Apollo)
I was able to visit my son who is currently an infantryman stationed out of state last week. This week he is “in the field” learning and practicing.
Thanks also to your kids for their service.
Waves of nausea wrack me as her words wreck history and truth. America, run away fast! Hurry now. There is time to be saved.
Revisionist history being taught in a church setting. Let’s get back to them olde paths. Back when America was how it should be. Slavery. Jim Crow.
Thanks to all our veterans who are serving and who have served. Blessings to you all, and to your families who have endured so much for us.
Lead products and asbestos. The glory day’s of con men, when a simple handshake was as good as a contract. Lack of safety regulations and seat belts so your teeth could be knocked out by the engine that just joined you in the front seat of your 57 Chevy. When divorce was enough of a taboo that women preferred making up stories for their bruises than to ruin their reputation by leaving. Or when shoddy psychological treatment allowed families to whisk off their embarrassing children to mental hospitals for minor issues where they used torture to “fix them”. When PTSD was an embarrassing issue that if anyone brought it up, they were told to “man up”.
Come home, America!
Insipid lyrics, uninspired tune and revisionist history: it is a fundy hat trick!
Now I need to listen to some CCM to clear my head.
I’ m surprised the Fundies let a woman sing in front of people to begin with… With all their stiff rules and what not…
Plus, she’s got short hair and she’s wearing jewelry…. Gasp!!!!
I know they try, but I had to turn it off a minute into it too… Not the best voice… But, hey, she’s attractive!!!! Oh… Ok…. that’s why she was allowed on the pulpit!!! Duh!!
As an historian and pastor, nothing could be further from the truth than the lyrics of this song!!!!!!
I’ll keep my comments brief, but this is the sort of crap that gets me on my soapbox. How anyone in their right mind can confuse the deism of Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, George Washington, James Madison or Thomas Paine with modern conservative evangelicalism is beyond me! If any IFB pastor actually read what these men believed or saw Jefferson’s bible from which he literally cut out any of the miracles Jesus’ performed, they’d declare them as liberal heretics!
And I’m sick and tire of how people love to quote the Christian “historian” David Barton–the man has absolutely no credentials and is guilty of some of the worst revisionism I’ve ever heard.
And lastly, I’m reminded of Paul’s words in Philippians 3:20, that we are first and foremost citizens of heaven, and many of Jesus’ followers in a America would do us all a favor if they thought about that for a few minutes instead of selling their soul to some self-serving, power-hungry, self-righteous political agenda (which Jesus must have advocated somewhere other than the gospels we have). If you get a chance to watch the video below, please do. I love the way Greg Boyd tries to set the record straight and I think every follower of Jesus needs to read Boyd’s book, “The Myth of a Christian Nation.” I’m done. Thank you for your time.
I read his book this year. It was absolutely brilliant.
Thank you, C U; I finally feel validated…lol. Glad to know that someone else appreciates the book.
Oh yes, great book; although I am chagrined that he even needed to write it. As for David Barton, he is so far of the rails that even some in the conservative calvinist baptist crowd have called him out as a liar. But confirmation bias and all that I suppose.
If I may offer, there’s no doubt that when it came to organized religion, there was a huge variety of flavors and a complete lack of religion in some cases. When we refer to a “Christian heritage”, my own research leads me to think that this is a misnomer. I think it’s more like a “Biblical/Moral heritage”. Many people follow Bible principles, and aren’t religious at all. God causes it to rain upon the just and unjust… I think one good application of this statement is that His wisdom is effective, regardless of who is applying it, or if they even know the source of that wisdom.
Most of those ideas– Don’t steal, don’t murder, don’t bear false witness, etc.– are not original to the Bible.
I feel extra special! I just recognized the decor. This is from my old Fundy U, Crown.
Four years of hard work, $40,000 and a phony diploma. Woohoo.
This crap makes me embarrassed to be American. The GOP/Tea baggers have not helped either.
My American citizenship is temporary.
When I served in a military capacity it was with a great deal of pride. It was the kind of pride that created a fervent patriotism, which is not to be confused with nationalism.
Much has changed for me in the thirty-two years this January since I signed on the dotted line and raised my right hand. In some ways I feel like I wasted so many good years in fundystan, yet I have to believe that it wasn’t for nothing. I have to believe that in God’s good providence (And I still do believe in God and His providence) that what I’ve been through, seen, and endured at the hands of religion and religious people has somehow made me a better person.
I know I must question my assumptions when they are confronted with truth that is contrary to what I believe. This song is filled with assumptions that people will believe “to the grave.” I believed very much the same way but still have much to learn.
B.R.O.
How do Fundies explain Norway as the world’s most prosperous nation six years in a row? Is it their godliness, conservatism, or standards?
I once read a magazine article by conservative darling and self-described “Republican Party Reptile” P.J. O’Rourke in which O’Rourke visited Sweden and tried to find something wrong with a liberal socialist country which has free health care for everyone (and the world’s healthiest and longest-lived population), a 100% literacy rate, a very high standard of living, and strong labor unions and high wages, along with an extremely prosperous business sector. He ended up spending much of the article on a transcription of an interview with a Swedish economist of the Milton Friedman school, who was peeved about government regulation, and even more so by its ovewhelming success in Sweden. The overall tone was, “Yeah, maybe everything works here, but it’s still wrong, because you aren’t doing it my way.”
Here is an excerpt from P.J. O’Rourke’s book Eat the Rich on the subject of Sweden. He criticized them for have a budget deficit even larger than our own as well as the highest taxes.
A nation of people has to decide if they prefer more money in their pockets to make their own choices or to pay higher taxes and have their government pay for higher education, K-12, medical, personal disability, retirement, etc.
The choice should not be framed as good vs. evil…it is simply a choice free people should be allowed to make for themselves.
And America is not a true free market, capitalistic economy anyway. It is a mixed economy, having characteristics of both.
The USA now is really more of a meracantilist system, with large corporations and the wealthiest individuals protected and subsidized by the system (and the taxpayers) than a true free market.
The classic reasoning I’ve heard and used to have was: “They’re successful now, but when it all hits the fan, they’ll be among the first to burn and crumble”.
And know doubt the people who say that will be the first to rejoice
Norway is Lutheran, so it certainly can’t be God’s blessing. But in all seriousness, I think BG is on to something. We have sort of devolved politically in this country to the point where political ideology is held with a firmness of conviction rivaling the best holiness tradition. Other nations – like Norway – take a more pragmatic approach.
Corporate welfare is real. I wish people would whine as much about that as they do people on welfare, section 8 and food stamps.
By the way, section 8 housing is welfare for two parties – the tenant and the homeowner who is getting higher rent and guaranteed income.
This posted in the wrong spot…ugh.
Pure, unadulterated crap! Lies bundled and packaged as “godliness,” as the “Truth.”
They rewrite history because they see propaganda value in it. Make the lie big enough, make people believe in it as if God has spoken it on high and you can change the course of a nation.
David Barton, of all people, knows how big a liar he is. But I am thoroughly convinced that people like Dr. Bob III and the so-called great leaders of fundamentalism also know. They know, but they support the lies anyway because that is what they want people to believe — and that is how corrupt their hearts really are.
It is intellectual theft on a massive scale. It is spiritual bank robbery. It is akin to the rewriting of history in Nazi Germany to mobilize the support for their racist holocaust. It is like the revisionism done in the Soviet Union to create achievements to glory in. The “people of God” have adopted the practices of the most wicked to accomplish their subversive activities.
But who among the pew-sitting Christians would believe it? Who would believe that their leaders, the MoGs, the Great Men of the Faith would lie to them so easily? It makes my head and heart hurt.
Most Fundamentalists and most political right-wingers share a deep intellectual vice, which is the failure to distinguish between facts based on evidence and “facts” that support their pre-existing prejudices.
I know someone is going to say that people on the left do this, too, and I agree that many do. But this particular vice is much deeper and more widespread on the right. It has to do with how people conceive of knowledge. Those who reject science also reject scientific ways of evaluating information, and the assertions that result from those methods. If all knowledge is handed down from on high (a doctrine central to the most popular strains of Fundamentalism), then it makes no difference how little evidence there is for “facts” we’ve been taught, nor how much evidence supports other ideas.
I just recently had a lengthy discussion with a friend who is convinced that peer reviewing and publishing is a huge conspiracy against Christianity and can’t be trusted. He sent me a list of published papers that turned out to be completely false and were only “reviewed” by peers with ulterior motives. But he failed to also mention that those papers were quickly removed, and most of the time, they don’t last a week if that. This method of accountability isn’t perfect, but given enough time, it’ll self correct. It may take 10 years, or even 100 years for something to be proven wrong and shake up its respective field, but it happens.
Which in turn stems from ignorance of – and just plain old bad – epistemology. Ever hear the term “I believe in absolute truth”? Think about that for about 2.5 five seconds and you will understand the problem.
Big Gary, see this excellent missive from Steven Novella’s blog on “Solution Aversion and Motivated Reasoning.”
I nominate this for the finest, SFL post ever. This bundles all the faith/doubts you’ve had, b!tchslaps them, and kicks them to the curb. I’ve copied/saved that one to hard drive.
God bless you, my friend!
Christian Socialist
You are a good friend, and gracious. I know that I see so much of what my faith was built on was not in God, but in what supposed “Men of God” had told me. I did not read what the Bible said, I read in the Bible what I expected to see because I had been told that thus and such was what it meant. I listened and absorbed the lies. I trusted whom they said to trust. I doubted whom they said to doubt. I hated what they said to hate.
I did not think for myself.
But when I finally did, and the process of shredding my faith ensued, all there was left of everything was a small seed, just a small part that continually cries out to God for mercy, for grace, and for things to be made right.
I have no confidence in what I had believed before. I am now forced to stand on my own two feet, make decisions as best I can, and even decide what of the Scripture to “believe” or to use as a guide and what to let go of. I try to follow Christ’s words first of all.
Other than that I don’t know that I have a lot to offer. But I offer it anyway. With me you see what you get. Some people don’t like it. But with friends like you I can go forward.
Dear rtgmath:
You wrote:
‘…a small seed, just a small part that continually cries out to God for mercy, for grace, and for things to be made right.’
A finer definition of faith one cannot find.
Yahweh bless and keep you, Yahweh make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you, Yahweh turn his face toward you and give you his peace.
Christian Socialist
I’m as patriotic as the next guy, but crap like this is part of what led my wife and me to the Catholic Church. Patriotism should have NO place in the church. It’s great to be patriotic, but Christ didn’t die for America.
Well said.
Although the Knights of Columbus might disagree.
True-ish. But the KoC don’t present patriotic services during mass. Mass is exclusively for the worship of Jesus.
To clarify, I’m all for patriotic presentations, but the IFB (and others) habit of dedicating entire services to America, with scarcely a mention of Jesus, is just sick.
patriotic presentations *outside of church services *
I ruffled some feathers at the church I pastor, but shortly after I started I removed both the American flag and the Christian flag from the sanctuary. Not that I am in any way un-American, but if the purpose of our service is to worship God alone, what purpose do they serve? I know the sanctuary or auditorium in any church today is not the same as the Holy Place or the Holy of Holies, but they seemed like the sort of thing that would defile or detract from the glory God rightfully deserves.
Bingo.
I agree with this, and make it a point of avoiding pro-America rallies that masquerade as a church service. The church should be free from such displays and the focus should remain on glorifying God, not the works of men.
That said, I enjoy a good patriotic parade too, and appreciate the sacrifice of our veterans.
A hearty AMEN !
Dear thlipsis:
As William Stringfellow aptly put it — ‘we are to read America Biblically and not read the Bible Americanly.’
Christian Socialist
I don’t think she is in a church. Isn’t that a college?
The Holy Trinity according to the fundies:
The Bible, America, MoG?
Leanne,
You’ve obviously been corrupted by outsiders because it’s not just any bible, it is the KJV 1611 :^)
my bad. I entertain and support your change to my statement.
Leanne, by now you should know that it’s not the generic Bible that is a person of the Holy Trinity, it’s the King James Version. As the bumper sticker shouts, “If it ain’t King James, it ain’t Bible!”
Before 1611, there was apparently no Bible worthy of the name.
That is such a rookie mistake–just saying Bible. In the words of the great philosopher, Homer Simpson, “D’oh!”
Dear Lydia:
It’s time Christian spurned the Christian birthing narrative lie. Mark Noll laid this to rest. It is time we found the integrity to do the same.
Christian Socialist
She quotes the atheist Lincoln in a song about repentance. No further comment necessary.
Lincoln was not an atheist in any meaningful sense of the term. I know fundamentalists would like to classify anyone who is a deist or has amorphous religious beliefs as an atheist, but it just isn’t so.
For example, in his Gettysburg address–
“we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain — that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom — and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.”
Fun little piece of history: The first two versions of the GA that Lincoln himself wrote didn’t include the words “under God” as well as some other variations. The other three versions of the GA are believed to have been written after the speech as requests from three different people. Everret – for a benefit. Bancroft and Bliss – for compilations they were both making.
It’s assumed that since he added it to later copies, then he must have deviated from his original speech during the address. The reason this is assumed is because there are a number of reporters that were at the address who transcribed “under God” in their articles.
KeepOn
This is perhaps one of the most hotly debated aspects of the Gettysburg address…at least among historians who apparently don’t have much else to talk about :^) As I think anyone would acknowledge, speakers are prone to deviate from the actual text of their manuscript. I was surprised to read the text Martin Luther King’s “I Have a Dream” speech while watching it on YouTube a few years ago and see just how and where he deviates from his prepared text. It’s not really significant, but clearly there are differences between what he wrote and what he said.
We tend to forget that historical figures most likely changed their beliefs several times. Labeling them permanently as one belief or another because of some letter or statement they made at one point during their lives is a common tactic used by several parties trying to prove a point.
Yes, indeed.
I’m reminded of the ongoing debate over whether or not Albert Einstein believed in God. He said various things at various times. It strikes me as plausible that his views varied over time.
Exactly. If there are any letters C.S. Lewis wrote after the death of his wife, you’d most likely see a very different man. We all want the cool guys to be part of whatever team we’re on, and quote mining is an easy way to prove that they were. Or, like the myth of Darwin recanting everything on his deathbed, we like to see the bad guys eventually admit that whatever team we’re on was actually better than their team.
It’s a lame analogy but I’m going with it!
I think that’s quite a good analogy.
We all want to be part of the cool clique, and will go to considerable lengths to recruit the other cool kids, especially the ones who can’t repudiate us (because they’re dead), into our tribe.
Funny how we want to paint others as having the same opinions over time. I can’t tell you how my political, social, and theological opinions have changed in the last 35 years.
The good doctor beat me to the punch, but simply reading Lincoln’s second inaugural address should convince just about anyone that Abraham Lincoln was not an atheist.
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” …John Adam, 2nd U.S. President and signer of the Declaration of Independence
“As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see.” …Benjamin Franklin
I loved the song!
There is no question that Judeo-Christian values influenced the founding fathers of this nation, but a quick read of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution reveal very quickly that from a legal aspect that this nation was not founded as a “Christian” nation. In fact the very thing they wanted to avoid was a theocracy of any kind. Accommodate, acknowledge, encourage and protect people of faith but do not make the state an enforcer of religious orthodoxy.
Just one other fundamental issue that those who claim this country was founded as a “Christian” nation must explain: how do you reconcile the Revolutionary War with Romans 13 and the submission to authority? I’m not saying I would have liked George III and his policies toward the Colonies, but Paul was writing in a totalitarian system that was far more corrupt and cruel than the 18th century British Empire and had no problem instructing Jesus’ followers in Rome to submit to governing authority. And despite Peter and John’s assertion that they must obey God and not man in Acts, that is a totally different context and situation.
John Wesley said something to the effect that he expected to see whores and publicans in heaven before the Americans who had rebelled against their king.
Seeing as John Wesley has been in heaven since 1791, he’s better informed now;)
He has given no update that I know of.
BG, that’s because he’s so “old paths” he thinks tweeting is what a bird does.
True enough.
I wouldn’t even be surprised to hear he still has an AOL account.
BG, I have an AOL account. Don’t use it, but I have it.
The song doesn’t say America is a Christian nation. It says “established on the Bible.” That is not really a far cry from your statement that “Judeo-Christian ethics influenced the founding fathers.” I would further assert that the Bible had a very significant influence on early American life and the formation of our laws, etc. I think our country is more secular than it was 100 or 200 years ago. Case in point–America’s ivy league schools were originally religious (specifically Christian) institutions. The same schools are now primarily secular. Obviously the author of this song would like to see that secularizing trend reversed. We are also probably more tolerant of diversity than we were then. This is a good thing. All this to say, I disagree that the song is definitely promoting/teaching revisionist history. I also think the song sucks. IFB music is generally pathetic. It’s an easy target for ridicule.
Well, it is promoting revisionist history. Founded on the Bible? Not at all.
Jamestown, the FIRST settlement, was founded on gold or the hope of finding it. Funny, though. Jamestown is almost always ignored, as if the Pilgrims were the first.
Even the Pilgrims in Massachusetts really weren’t coming to found their settlement on the Bible. They were very religious, and were fleeing religious persecution. But they were interested in having a place where they could be completely in control and persecute anyone who disagreed. Yes, people died as heretics in Massachusetts. Women were accused of being witches and were burned at the stake. Oh, that is very “Bible”, isn’t it?
New York was founded on Commerce. Georgia was founded on the basis of having a place for convicts to go. There was the aristocracy. There was deliberate murder of the Indians by giving them blankets infected with smallpox.
“Founded on the Bible”, my foot! We have a checkered history, enough to bring both pride and shame.
But to the IFB, “Founded on the Bible” means that America was *supposed* to be a “Christian nation,” and many of these same people want to drive out nonChristians or deny them any rights. Yes, they do. IFB MoGs have promoted the idea that the First Amendment applies only to “Christianity,” and that other religions have no rights. Some IFBers have proposed that the Constitution be interpreted as being “under the Bible,” that the Bible is America’s highest law.
The song is definitely revisionist history. The IFB promotes revisionist history at every hand. BJU even published a book trying to justify the American Revolution not as a revolution, because Christians would never revolt against authority. The book claimed that England had relinquished its authority so the colonists were actually free people. Then England wanted to take it back.
It is all part of a whole. You could look at each individual piece and say, “This isn’t trying to be revisionist” (maybe it was only “mistaken” or was taking a look at “a different facet”) but the pieces are all part of a whole. The IFB is promoting revisionism, and this is a part of it.
In addition to religious “Pilgrims” (though they don’t seem to have called themselves that), the Mayflower carried a bunch of people who were emigrating for ecomonic reasons.
And Jamestown was mostly full of treasure hunters. Captain John Smith had trouble getting them to work on anything except digging for gold.
Founded on the Bible? How would one establish a metric for that? For those familiar with the Great Books of the Western tradition, it is fairly clear that Plato had more influence on the laws and ideas of this country than the Bible. The idea of a democratic republic is completely foreign to any and all socio-political reference in the Bible. I’m also not sure we could ever call the laws or moral code as Christian or “founded on the Bible”. Like the Puritans who punished an elderly man accused of wizardry by stacking rocks on him until he was crushed to death. I suppose you could call it stoning. That’s “founded on the Bible”, yes? Or the Congregationalist preacher in Massachusetts who refused to “take a call” at the local parish because his compensation package didn’t include enough slaves. Yeah, I suppose that is “founded on the Bible”, at least the OT part. So…would any reasonably moral person ever want to return to those dark times?
I agree that “founded on the Bible” is a stretch. I would characterize this song as naivety at worst. Many people want our country to return to a time when Judeo-Christian values were predominant. There was such a time in America’s history. There never will be again. America is not predominantly Jewish. Neither is it predominantly Christian. I would contend that most Americans are not even particularly religious at all. America was specifically designed to be a place that valued diversity which included all types of religious and nonreligious belief systems.
We have become that kind of place over time to the chagrin of many IFB fundies who do want America to be a Christian nation—as many of them believe it once was. I don’t think this is revisionist history. I think it is simply good old fashioned wishful thinking.
Mark
Dear thlipsis:
‘The Politics of Jesus,’ John Howard Yoder, chapter 10.
Christian Socialist
There is more to the Franklin quote: “but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble. ”
Franklin was NOT a Christian. He was a deist. Attempting to make him what he was not by selectively cutting out quotelets from whole statements is in itself a form of lying, which revisionists do very frequently.
Yes, if you read the whole letter quoted above, it is clear that Ben Franklin was not a Christian in the conventional sense, and never claimed to be.
As for his comment that “I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble,” Franklin was 84 when he wrote the letter and didn’t expect to live much longer– and indeed, he died less than 2 months later.
If you read his (unfinished) autobiography, he is much more clear about his unbelief. He was a moralist, but neither religious nor believing.
BG:
Thank you for the link to Franklin’s letter. Simply reading this letter indicates that he was more religious than the average American today. I would guess that most people reading this letter would wrongly characterize Franklin as a Christian. He certainly believed that Christianity was the correct religion, albeit his interpretation of it. Of course, by evangelical or fundy definition he was not, because for one, he didn’t apparently recognize a need for salvation or Christ’s redemptive work. He did believe in the God of the Bible and he believed in an afterlife. Based on the evidence of this letter alone, I don’t see why anyone would say that Franklin was not religious (unless religiosity is dependent on outward actions as opposed to internal beliefs) and also at least nominally a Christian. I think it is splitting hairs to use the term deist instead of Christian. In the context of this conversation, I think a Christian should not be defined as someone who puts their faith for salvation in Christ’s redemptive work on the cross, but rather someone who basically aligns themselves with the moral teachings of Christianity which are derived from the Bible, who believes in the God of the Bible, and who prefers Christianity to other religions or considers it to be superior to other religions. This kind of “Christianity”, while it is not authentic, did, in fact contribute greatly to the formation of our nation. This is what the fundies want to go back to. I don’t think most of them really believe that all our founding fathers were true Christians, but they think the ff were more influenced by Christianity than many of today’s leaders. I think they are correct in that assessment.
Mark
Mark, I think it’s fair to call Franklin a Deist (and Washington and Jefferson Deists, too). He had a vaguely-defined belief in some kind of supreme being, but did not hold to any other religious doctrines. As Dr. Fundystan says, he’s fairly clear about this in his autobiography.
Franklin was largely self-educated, and did not attend church (or seldom did) as an adult, so I don’t know how much he knew or didn’t know about the Bible.
I appreciate the info BG. Obviously you know your history so I will concede your description of BF. Unfortunately, it seems that many famous people in early American times used enough religious language to cause casual students of history to mistakenly label them as Christians. Or perhaps language customs have changed to the extent that only the most religiously devout in our times would speak with as much religiosity as some of our early leaders did.
I feel that it is unfairly harsh to describe this song and other similar fundy expressions as revisionist. Most people, fundy and nonfundy alike, are not historians. Given this, it seems that people could be cut some slack when we see them accepting a common misperception about some of the founding fathers. I mean seriously………I think several of you regular contributors to SFL must have jobs as educators, and some of you have pretty advanced educations. I work in a factory with 300 people. I’ll bet not one of them knows what a deist is. Is it really the fundies’ fault for believing the same things about American history that most Americans believe? I’m sorry I have rambled on so much on this thread, but sometimes I get kind of discouraged about what I perceive to be mean spirited responses at SFL to the foolish antics of the IFB. Sometimes I feel like quoting Jesus with “forgive them–they know not what they do.”
Other times I want to scream “what a bunch of loony idiots!”
Mark
I think there is a difference between the country being founded on Judeo-Christian values and what this song is singing about and what fundies seem to aim for in reality. Even in the song she sings valuing freedom for all–then goes into a list of things we are “allowing”. Our nation may have been founded on Judeo-Christian values but it was not created to be a theocracy. Freedom for all means there will be people who do not share the Judeo-Christian values but as a democracy–they are free. It would be a theocracy if they were not allowed to be free.
Yep. Freedom means allowing things you wouldn’t do yourself, just as free speech recognizes people’s right to say things you don’t agree with.
Agreed. I disagree with gay marriage. I’m not opposed to its legalization. Lots of people disagree with smoking doobies. Yet, it should be legalized. Some folks disapprove of anything but the missionary position. That’s fine for them, but it would be foolish to legislate their disapproval. In contrast, the abortion debate isn’t about approval or disapproval. It’s about civil rights–those of pregnant women and arguably, those of an unborn human child (perhaps a person, perhaps not).
If only people would understand that in America, we are free to live our lives however we choose as long as we don’t trample on the rights of our neighbors to do the same.
The good doctor beat me to the punch, but simply reading Lincoln’s second inaugural address should convince just about anyone that Abraham Lincoln was not an atheist.
Hmmm… went to the link, saw the name, and the clicked on “Crown Students Will…” and noted that the Spiritual Objectives had 12 points, and that three of them were soul-winning.
#11 says that they “will enjoy” serving
#6 says “… will respect and appreciate men and women of the past who have served the Lord faithfully and have lived holy lives, handing down to us a great Christian heritage.” I wonder if that includes Billy Graham and the Pope? It should not include Jack Hyles nor Jack Schaap.
As a former Crown grad, I would like to consider the “Crown College students will…” list too (found on the left sidebar):
1. We were never in an environment where we could follow Christ (ie: Being able to read the Bible faithfully, have any sort of prayer life, or witness). Sure, we learned a lot about Him and the Bible, but were never able to foster that relationship much.
3. We were never, never-ever, EVER properly trained to witness or disciple someone. We were thrown into a class with Clarence (which he attended 1 out of 3 times), given “training”, and then expected to do it as our homework! On top of this, we were very restricted from going out witnessing. There was no structure to their witnessing program; it was (and probably still is) very random and disjointed.
5. Their church planting program is a joke. It consisted of one week in the summer. I have personally used none of it in my own work as a church planter, because it is that useless. Their concept of “church planting” is sending someone many states away to start a church and they might support them financially and then come for their charter service.
6. Respect becomes more like worship. As many of you know, some of these men were not worthy of either, because their true selves were conveniently forgotten.
7. …unless Clarence Sexton tells you what God’s will is, then that settles it…
8. They are so good at this, look at where most of their students are now and how good they are at discerning godly things…
10. …as Crown College seeks to hinder that student’s Christian walk every day…
11. …or else (yes, this means you must enjoy working 13 hour days and donating your overtime as “ministry time”) (true story)
Ed 1. *laughing uncontrollably*
2. *laughing becomes choking from laughing so much*
4. …forgetting those that were godly and were not Baptists…
5. *starts to laugh again*
6. *sees “consistent with higher education learning” and laughs harder*
7. *laughing turns to crying, because of the shear deception and lies of that statement*
8. Nope, no practical experience here. Move along please (preferably to a small church were practical experience can be gained)
Social 1. This is difficult, when one is never exposed to any mature individuals outside college students. We were kept far, far away from any preacher, missionary, etc.
2. …because the Bible’s rules are not enough; so we give you a whole bunch of other rules through our handbook that MUST be followed…or else…
4-5. …and we will allowing campaigning in our church and force our voting choices down your throats…
Thanks for letting me vent…
O God of earth and altar,
Bow down and hear our cry.
Our earthly rulers falter;
Our people drift and die;
The walls of gold entomb us;
The swords of scorn divide.
Take not Thy thunder from us,
But take away our pride.
From all that terror teaches,
From lies of tongue and pen,
From all the easy speeches
That comfort cruel men,
From sale and profanation
Of honor, and the sword,
From sleep and from damnation:
Deliver us, good Lord!
Tie in a living tether
The priest and prince and thrall.
Bind all our lives together;
Smite us and save us all.
In ire and exultation,
Aflame with faith, and free,
Lift up a living nation,
A single sword to Thee.
Notice the non-drop ceiling, and the absence of a white piano.
Oh, no, they have drop ceiling. It is just very, very, very high up there! No white pianos though…
A wonderful hymn. And very Biblical.
Here’s one of my favorite patriotic hymns (words by Lloyd Stone to a tune by Jean Sibelius):
This is my song, O God of all the nations,
a song of peace for lands afar and mine.
This is my home, the country where my heart is;
here are my hopes, my dreams, my holy shrine;
but other hearts in other lands are beating
with hopes and dreams as true and high as mine.
My country’s skies are bluer than the ocean,
and sunlight beams on cloverleaf and pine;
but other lands have sunlight too, and clover,
and skies are everywhere as blue as mine.
O hear my song, thou God of all the nations,
a song of peace for their land and for mine.
Franklin’s contributions to charitable causes were many, including the founding of Pennsylvania Hospital in 1751, for which he composed the inscription for the cornerstone. It reads:
In the year of Christ, 1755: George the second happily reigning, (for he sought the happiness of the people); Philadelphia flourishing, for its inhabitants were publick-spirited. This building, by the bounty of the Government and of many private persons, was piously founded, for the relief of the sick and miserable. May the God of mercies bless the undertaking!
That was all boilerplate at the time. Nothing about it special to Franklin.
from a letter to Robert R. Livingston, which reveals his strong faith in God….towards the end of his life:
I am now entering on my 78th year; I wish now to be, for the little time I have let, my own master. If I live to see this peace concluded, I shall beg leave to remind the Congress of their promise, then to dismiss me! I shall be happy to sing with old Simeon, “Now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, for mine eyes have seen thou salvation”
Was Franklin saved? It’s not for me to judge. There is no good evidence, that I am aware of, that Franklin ever publicly acknowledged Christ as Savior. But there can be no debate that Franklin’s life was deeply influenced by Christianity, and, as he often pointed out, so was the well-being of the nation – as his maxims and morals, his letters and political writings demonstrate. Of course his life demonstrated goodness by his actions, selfless giving of his talents and money all attest to a Christian value system and world view.
Comments are closed.
A silly blog dedicated to Independent Fundamental Baptists, their standards, their beliefs, and their craziness.
First!
Third time I’ve done this!
Doin the victory dance!!!!
Spike your KJV in celebration! GLOWRAY!
How do they do that? Where they all sound terribly the same.
This kind of music puts me to sleep.
Doing the Chester Cheetah thing right now!
It’s not easy being cheesy—unless you are an IFB songwriter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTwsOq0rSTQ&feature=player_embedded#t=28
Sorry, Al: Even for you, I’m not going to listen to 40 minutes of Clarence Sexton.
America, come home! Lassie doesn’t want to be alone when she comes home.
We weep for you, ‘Murica!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SQxdK19vH0
I love the way the woman on the cover of the porno video box was completely covered from neck to ankles to wrists, but … wait for it … wearing slacks!
Yeah, that’s exactly what porno advertising looks like, folks …
And what was on fire behind the Vietnam vet in his wheelchair?
I seriously don’t know if this movie is satire or if it was intended seriously– which, of course, is a characteristic of some of the very best satire.
It looked like one of those long fuses that you’d see on a cartoon, leading to a big black bomb behind the counter.
It’s no satire, sadly!
It’s from an old 1980’s production called “America, you’re too young to die”. It’s on VHS at a number of libraries still:
http://www.worldcat.org/title/america-youre-too-young-to-die/oclc/16510152
Also, apologies, UncleWilver. I didn’t mean to reply to your post off the subject of poor Lassie. This was supposed to be a separate post altogether. Our nation has degraded so much that I can’t even properly post like our founding fathers did.
Thanks Obama!
Since I am of the worst digressors (while not yet in the official Scrabble dictionary, I’m sure it’s a valid word) I know, your comment fit just fine.
Lassie come home, ‘Merica come back,– just don’t reference that whiny kid wailing “Shane, come back“. That was a decent movie ruined with a bad ending. Whiny kids spoil anything they are connected to.
Whiny adults are even worse. Especially Christians.
Is the narrator William Federer?
The warbling and revisionist-history of the lyrics caused me to stop this early. If anyone hears anything worth noting later in the song, please share it.
To all of you vets here on SFL, thank you for your service to our country. To any of you who, like me, have children currently serving, a great big Thank You to them, also.
Ditto!!
I got to about the second line.
That was more than enough.
Thank you, UV. I just came back from dinner with my vet son-in-law and my daughter, who is an army vet and a full time member of the Ohio National Guard. I am very proud of them both.
+
Please excuse the’+’ sign, the cat was helping me type.
(I don’t need no George, I have Apollo)
I was able to visit my son who is currently an infantryman stationed out of state last week. This week he is “in the field” learning and practicing.
Thanks also to your kids for their service.
Waves of nausea wrack me as her words wreck history and truth. America, run away fast! Hurry now. There is time to be saved.
Revisionist history being taught in a church setting. Let’s get back to them olde paths. Back when America was how it should be. Slavery. Jim Crow.
Thanks to all our veterans who are serving and who have served. Blessings to you all, and to your families who have endured so much for us.
Lead products and asbestos. The glory day’s of con men, when a simple handshake was as good as a contract. Lack of safety regulations and seat belts so your teeth could be knocked out by the engine that just joined you in the front seat of your 57 Chevy. When divorce was enough of a taboo that women preferred making up stories for their bruises than to ruin their reputation by leaving. Or when shoddy psychological treatment allowed families to whisk off their embarrassing children to mental hospitals for minor issues where they used torture to “fix them”. When PTSD was an embarrassing issue that if anyone brought it up, they were told to “man up”.
Come home, America!
Insipid lyrics, uninspired tune and revisionist history: it is a fundy hat trick!
Now I need to listen to some CCM to clear my head.
I’ m surprised the Fundies let a woman sing in front of people to begin with… With all their stiff rules and what not…
Plus, she’s got short hair and she’s wearing jewelry…. Gasp!!!!
I know they try, but I had to turn it off a minute into it too… Not the best voice… But, hey, she’s attractive!!!! Oh… Ok…. that’s why she was allowed on the pulpit!!! Duh!!
As an historian and pastor, nothing could be further from the truth than the lyrics of this song!!!!!!
I’ll keep my comments brief, but this is the sort of crap that gets me on my soapbox. How anyone in their right mind can confuse the deism of Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, George Washington, James Madison or Thomas Paine with modern conservative evangelicalism is beyond me! If any IFB pastor actually read what these men believed or saw Jefferson’s bible from which he literally cut out any of the miracles Jesus’ performed, they’d declare them as liberal heretics!
And I’m sick and tire of how people love to quote the Christian “historian” David Barton–the man has absolutely no credentials and is guilty of some of the worst revisionism I’ve ever heard.
And lastly, I’m reminded of Paul’s words in Philippians 3:20, that we are first and foremost citizens of heaven, and many of Jesus’ followers in a America would do us all a favor if they thought about that for a few minutes instead of selling their soul to some self-serving, power-hungry, self-righteous political agenda (which Jesus must have advocated somewhere other than the gospels we have). If you get a chance to watch the video below, please do. I love the way Greg Boyd tries to set the record straight and I think every follower of Jesus needs to read Boyd’s book, “The Myth of a Christian Nation.” I’m done. Thank you for your time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIWs_G4oJaA
I read his book this year. It was absolutely brilliant.
Thank you, C U; I finally feel validated…lol. Glad to know that someone else appreciates the book.
Oh yes, great book; although I am chagrined that he even needed to write it. As for David Barton, he is so far of the rails that even some in the conservative calvinist baptist crowd have called him out as a liar. But confirmation bias and all that I suppose.
If I may offer, there’s no doubt that when it came to organized religion, there was a huge variety of flavors and a complete lack of religion in some cases. When we refer to a “Christian heritage”, my own research leads me to think that this is a misnomer. I think it’s more like a “Biblical/Moral heritage”. Many people follow Bible principles, and aren’t religious at all. God causes it to rain upon the just and unjust… I think one good application of this statement is that His wisdom is effective, regardless of who is applying it, or if they even know the source of that wisdom.
Most of those ideas– Don’t steal, don’t murder, don’t bear false witness, etc.– are not original to the Bible.
I feel extra special! I just recognized the decor. This is from my old Fundy U, Crown.
Four years of hard work, $40,000 and a phony diploma. Woohoo.
This crap makes me embarrassed to be American. The GOP/Tea baggers have not helped either.
My American citizenship is temporary.
When I served in a military capacity it was with a great deal of pride. It was the kind of pride that created a fervent patriotism, which is not to be confused with nationalism.
Much has changed for me in the thirty-two years this January since I signed on the dotted line and raised my right hand. In some ways I feel like I wasted so many good years in fundystan, yet I have to believe that it wasn’t for nothing. I have to believe that in God’s good providence (And I still do believe in God and His providence) that what I’ve been through, seen, and endured at the hands of religion and religious people has somehow made me a better person.
I know I must question my assumptions when they are confronted with truth that is contrary to what I believe. This song is filled with assumptions that people will believe “to the grave.” I believed very much the same way but still have much to learn.
B.R.O.
How do Fundies explain Norway as the world’s most prosperous nation six years in a row? Is it their godliness, conservatism, or standards?
I once read a magazine article by conservative darling and self-described “Republican Party Reptile” P.J. O’Rourke in which O’Rourke visited Sweden and tried to find something wrong with a liberal socialist country which has free health care for everyone (and the world’s healthiest and longest-lived population), a 100% literacy rate, a very high standard of living, and strong labor unions and high wages, along with an extremely prosperous business sector. He ended up spending much of the article on a transcription of an interview with a Swedish economist of the Milton Friedman school, who was peeved about government regulation, and even more so by its ovewhelming success in Sweden. The overall tone was, “Yeah, maybe everything works here, but it’s still wrong, because you aren’t doing it my way.”
Here is an excerpt from P.J. O’Rourke’s book Eat the Rich on the subject of Sweden. He criticized them for have a budget deficit even larger than our own as well as the highest taxes.
A nation of people has to decide if they prefer more money in their pockets to make their own choices or to pay higher taxes and have their government pay for higher education, K-12, medical, personal disability, retirement, etc.
The choice should not be framed as good vs. evil…it is simply a choice free people should be allowed to make for themselves.
And America is not a true free market, capitalistic economy anyway. It is a mixed economy, having characteristics of both.
http://books.google.com/books?id=YzTauHNa4FIC&pg=PT44&lpg=PT44&dq=pj+o%27rourke+sweden&source=bl&ots=Xet7Swkgcp&sig=uBEwQaIJMl7fuI7xeoRdB6_atBs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qNFjVN_LEMu7ogS284JA&ved=0CFIQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=pj%20o%27rourke%20sweden&f=false
The USA now is really more of a meracantilist system, with large corporations and the wealthiest individuals protected and subsidized by the system (and the taxpayers) than a true free market.
The classic reasoning I’ve heard and used to have was: “They’re successful now, but when it all hits the fan, they’ll be among the first to burn and crumble”.
And know doubt the people who say that will be the first to rejoice
Norway is Lutheran, so it certainly can’t be God’s blessing. But in all seriousness, I think BG is on to something. We have sort of devolved politically in this country to the point where political ideology is held with a firmness of conviction rivaling the best holiness tradition. Other nations – like Norway – take a more pragmatic approach.
Corporate welfare is real. I wish people would whine as much about that as they do people on welfare, section 8 and food stamps.
By the way, section 8 housing is welfare for two parties – the tenant and the homeowner who is getting higher rent and guaranteed income.
This posted in the wrong spot…ugh.
Pure, unadulterated crap! Lies bundled and packaged as “godliness,” as the “Truth.”
They rewrite history because they see propaganda value in it. Make the lie big enough, make people believe in it as if God has spoken it on high and you can change the course of a nation.
David Barton, of all people, knows how big a liar he is. But I am thoroughly convinced that people like Dr. Bob III and the so-called great leaders of fundamentalism also know. They know, but they support the lies anyway because that is what they want people to believe — and that is how corrupt their hearts really are.
It is intellectual theft on a massive scale. It is spiritual bank robbery. It is akin to the rewriting of history in Nazi Germany to mobilize the support for their racist holocaust. It is like the revisionism done in the Soviet Union to create achievements to glory in. The “people of God” have adopted the practices of the most wicked to accomplish their subversive activities.
But who among the pew-sitting Christians would believe it? Who would believe that their leaders, the MoGs, the Great Men of the Faith would lie to them so easily? It makes my head and heart hurt.
Most Fundamentalists and most political right-wingers share a deep intellectual vice, which is the failure to distinguish between facts based on evidence and “facts” that support their pre-existing prejudices.
I know someone is going to say that people on the left do this, too, and I agree that many do. But this particular vice is much deeper and more widespread on the right. It has to do with how people conceive of knowledge. Those who reject science also reject scientific ways of evaluating information, and the assertions that result from those methods. If all knowledge is handed down from on high (a doctrine central to the most popular strains of Fundamentalism), then it makes no difference how little evidence there is for “facts” we’ve been taught, nor how much evidence supports other ideas.
I just recently had a lengthy discussion with a friend who is convinced that peer reviewing and publishing is a huge conspiracy against Christianity and can’t be trusted. He sent me a list of published papers that turned out to be completely false and were only “reviewed” by peers with ulterior motives. But he failed to also mention that those papers were quickly removed, and most of the time, they don’t last a week if that. This method of accountability isn’t perfect, but given enough time, it’ll self correct. It may take 10 years, or even 100 years for something to be proven wrong and shake up its respective field, but it happens.
Which in turn stems from ignorance of – and just plain old bad – epistemology. Ever hear the term “I believe in absolute truth”? Think about that for about 2.5 five seconds and you will understand the problem.
Big Gary, see this excellent missive from Steven Novella’s blog on “Solution Aversion and Motivated Reasoning.”
http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/solution-aversion-and-motivated-reasoning/
Dear rtgmath:
I nominate this for the finest, SFL post ever. This bundles all the faith/doubts you’ve had, b!tchslaps them, and kicks them to the curb. I’ve copied/saved that one to hard drive.
God bless you, my friend!
Christian Socialist
You are a good friend, and gracious. I know that I see so much of what my faith was built on was not in God, but in what supposed “Men of God” had told me. I did not read what the Bible said, I read in the Bible what I expected to see because I had been told that thus and such was what it meant. I listened and absorbed the lies. I trusted whom they said to trust. I doubted whom they said to doubt. I hated what they said to hate.
I did not think for myself.
But when I finally did, and the process of shredding my faith ensued, all there was left of everything was a small seed, just a small part that continually cries out to God for mercy, for grace, and for things to be made right.
I have no confidence in what I had believed before. I am now forced to stand on my own two feet, make decisions as best I can, and even decide what of the Scripture to “believe” or to use as a guide and what to let go of. I try to follow Christ’s words first of all.
Other than that I don’t know that I have a lot to offer. But I offer it anyway. With me you see what you get. Some people don’t like it. But with friends like you I can go forward.
Dear rtgmath:
You wrote:
‘…a small seed, just a small part that continually cries out to God for mercy, for grace, and for things to be made right.’
A finer definition of faith one cannot find.
Yahweh bless and keep you, Yahweh make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you, Yahweh turn his face toward you and give you his peace.
Christian Socialist
I’m as patriotic as the next guy, but crap like this is part of what led my wife and me to the Catholic Church. Patriotism should have NO place in the church. It’s great to be patriotic, but Christ didn’t die for America.
Well said.
Although the Knights of Columbus might disagree.
True-ish. But the KoC don’t present patriotic services during mass. Mass is exclusively for the worship of Jesus.
To clarify, I’m all for patriotic presentations, but the IFB (and others) habit of dedicating entire services to America, with scarcely a mention of Jesus, is just sick.
patriotic presentations *outside of church services *
I ruffled some feathers at the church I pastor, but shortly after I started I removed both the American flag and the Christian flag from the sanctuary. Not that I am in any way un-American, but if the purpose of our service is to worship God alone, what purpose do they serve? I know the sanctuary or auditorium in any church today is not the same as the Holy Place or the Holy of Holies, but they seemed like the sort of thing that would defile or detract from the glory God rightfully deserves.
Bingo.
I agree with this, and make it a point of avoiding pro-America rallies that masquerade as a church service. The church should be free from such displays and the focus should remain on glorifying God, not the works of men.
That said, I enjoy a good patriotic parade too, and appreciate the sacrifice of our veterans.
A hearty AMEN !
Dear thlipsis:
As William Stringfellow aptly put it — ‘we are to read America Biblically and not read the Bible Americanly.’
Christian Socialist
I don’t think she is in a church. Isn’t that a college?
The Holy Trinity according to the fundies:
The Bible, America, MoG?
Leanne,
You’ve obviously been corrupted by outsiders because it’s not just any bible, it is the KJV 1611 :^)
my bad. I entertain and support your change to my statement.
Leanne, by now you should know that it’s not the generic Bible that is a person of the Holy Trinity, it’s the King James Version. As the bumper sticker shouts, “If it ain’t King James, it ain’t Bible!”
Before 1611, there was apparently no Bible worthy of the name.
That is such a rookie mistake–just saying Bible. In the words of the great philosopher, Homer Simpson, “D’oh!”
Dear Lydia:
It’s time Christian spurned the Christian birthing narrative lie. Mark Noll laid this to rest. It is time we found the integrity to do the same.
Christian Socialist
She quotes the atheist Lincoln in a song about repentance. No further comment necessary.
Lincoln was not an atheist in any meaningful sense of the term. I know fundamentalists would like to classify anyone who is a deist or has amorphous religious beliefs as an atheist, but it just isn’t so.
For example, in his Gettysburg address–
“we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain — that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom — and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.”
Fun little piece of history: The first two versions of the GA that Lincoln himself wrote didn’t include the words “under God” as well as some other variations. The other three versions of the GA are believed to have been written after the speech as requests from three different people. Everret – for a benefit. Bancroft and Bliss – for compilations they were both making.
It’s assumed that since he added it to later copies, then he must have deviated from his original speech during the address. The reason this is assumed is because there are a number of reporters that were at the address who transcribed “under God” in their articles.
KeepOn
This is perhaps one of the most hotly debated aspects of the Gettysburg address…at least among historians who apparently don’t have much else to talk about :^) As I think anyone would acknowledge, speakers are prone to deviate from the actual text of their manuscript. I was surprised to read the text Martin Luther King’s “I Have a Dream” speech while watching it on YouTube a few years ago and see just how and where he deviates from his prepared text. It’s not really significant, but clearly there are differences between what he wrote and what he said.
We tend to forget that historical figures most likely changed their beliefs several times. Labeling them permanently as one belief or another because of some letter or statement they made at one point during their lives is a common tactic used by several parties trying to prove a point.
Yes, indeed.
I’m reminded of the ongoing debate over whether or not Albert Einstein believed in God. He said various things at various times. It strikes me as plausible that his views varied over time.
Exactly. If there are any letters C.S. Lewis wrote after the death of his wife, you’d most likely see a very different man. We all want the cool guys to be part of whatever team we’re on, and quote mining is an easy way to prove that they were. Or, like the myth of Darwin recanting everything on his deathbed, we like to see the bad guys eventually admit that whatever team we’re on was actually better than their team.
It’s a lame analogy but I’m going with it!
I think that’s quite a good analogy.
We all want to be part of the cool clique, and will go to considerable lengths to recruit the other cool kids, especially the ones who can’t repudiate us (because they’re dead), into our tribe.
Funny how we want to paint others as having the same opinions over time. I can’t tell you how my political, social, and theological opinions have changed in the last 35 years.
The good doctor beat me to the punch, but simply reading Lincoln’s second inaugural address should convince just about anyone that Abraham Lincoln was not an atheist.
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” …John Adam, 2nd U.S. President and signer of the Declaration of Independence
“As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see.” …Benjamin Franklin
I loved the song!
There is no question that Judeo-Christian values influenced the founding fathers of this nation, but a quick read of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution reveal very quickly that from a legal aspect that this nation was not founded as a “Christian” nation. In fact the very thing they wanted to avoid was a theocracy of any kind. Accommodate, acknowledge, encourage and protect people of faith but do not make the state an enforcer of religious orthodoxy.
Just one other fundamental issue that those who claim this country was founded as a “Christian” nation must explain: how do you reconcile the Revolutionary War with Romans 13 and the submission to authority? I’m not saying I would have liked George III and his policies toward the Colonies, but Paul was writing in a totalitarian system that was far more corrupt and cruel than the 18th century British Empire and had no problem instructing Jesus’ followers in Rome to submit to governing authority. And despite Peter and John’s assertion that they must obey God and not man in Acts, that is a totally different context and situation.
John Wesley said something to the effect that he expected to see whores and publicans in heaven before the Americans who had rebelled against their king.
Seeing as John Wesley has been in heaven since 1791, he’s better informed now;)
He has given no update that I know of.
BG, that’s because he’s so “old paths” he thinks tweeting is what a bird does.
True enough.
I wouldn’t even be surprised to hear he still has an AOL account.
BG, I have an AOL account. Don’t use it, but I have it.
The song doesn’t say America is a Christian nation. It says “established on the Bible.” That is not really a far cry from your statement that “Judeo-Christian ethics influenced the founding fathers.” I would further assert that the Bible had a very significant influence on early American life and the formation of our laws, etc. I think our country is more secular than it was 100 or 200 years ago. Case in point–America’s ivy league schools were originally religious (specifically Christian) institutions. The same schools are now primarily secular. Obviously the author of this song would like to see that secularizing trend reversed. We are also probably more tolerant of diversity than we were then. This is a good thing. All this to say, I disagree that the song is definitely promoting/teaching revisionist history. I also think the song sucks. IFB music is generally pathetic. It’s an easy target for ridicule.
Well, it is promoting revisionist history. Founded on the Bible? Not at all.
Jamestown, the FIRST settlement, was founded on gold or the hope of finding it. Funny, though. Jamestown is almost always ignored, as if the Pilgrims were the first.
Even the Pilgrims in Massachusetts really weren’t coming to found their settlement on the Bible. They were very religious, and were fleeing religious persecution. But they were interested in having a place where they could be completely in control and persecute anyone who disagreed. Yes, people died as heretics in Massachusetts. Women were accused of being witches and were burned at the stake. Oh, that is very “Bible”, isn’t it?
New York was founded on Commerce. Georgia was founded on the basis of having a place for convicts to go. There was the aristocracy. There was deliberate murder of the Indians by giving them blankets infected with smallpox.
“Founded on the Bible”, my foot! We have a checkered history, enough to bring both pride and shame.
But to the IFB, “Founded on the Bible” means that America was *supposed* to be a “Christian nation,” and many of these same people want to drive out nonChristians or deny them any rights. Yes, they do. IFB MoGs have promoted the idea that the First Amendment applies only to “Christianity,” and that other religions have no rights. Some IFBers have proposed that the Constitution be interpreted as being “under the Bible,” that the Bible is America’s highest law.
The song is definitely revisionist history. The IFB promotes revisionist history at every hand. BJU even published a book trying to justify the American Revolution not as a revolution, because Christians would never revolt against authority. The book claimed that England had relinquished its authority so the colonists were actually free people. Then England wanted to take it back.
It is all part of a whole. You could look at each individual piece and say, “This isn’t trying to be revisionist” (maybe it was only “mistaken” or was taking a look at “a different facet”) but the pieces are all part of a whole. The IFB is promoting revisionism, and this is a part of it.
In addition to religious “Pilgrims” (though they don’t seem to have called themselves that), the Mayflower carried a bunch of people who were emigrating for ecomonic reasons.
And Jamestown was mostly full of treasure hunters. Captain John Smith had trouble getting them to work on anything except digging for gold.
Founded on the Bible? How would one establish a metric for that? For those familiar with the Great Books of the Western tradition, it is fairly clear that Plato had more influence on the laws and ideas of this country than the Bible. The idea of a democratic republic is completely foreign to any and all socio-political reference in the Bible. I’m also not sure we could ever call the laws or moral code as Christian or “founded on the Bible”. Like the Puritans who punished an elderly man accused of wizardry by stacking rocks on him until he was crushed to death. I suppose you could call it stoning. That’s “founded on the Bible”, yes? Or the Congregationalist preacher in Massachusetts who refused to “take a call” at the local parish because his compensation package didn’t include enough slaves. Yeah, I suppose that is “founded on the Bible”, at least the OT part. So…would any reasonably moral person ever want to return to those dark times?
I agree that “founded on the Bible” is a stretch. I would characterize this song as naivety at worst. Many people want our country to return to a time when Judeo-Christian values were predominant. There was such a time in America’s history. There never will be again. America is not predominantly Jewish. Neither is it predominantly Christian. I would contend that most Americans are not even particularly religious at all. America was specifically designed to be a place that valued diversity which included all types of religious and nonreligious belief systems.
We have become that kind of place over time to the chagrin of many IFB fundies who do want America to be a Christian nation—as many of them believe it once was. I don’t think this is revisionist history. I think it is simply good old fashioned wishful thinking.
Mark
Dear thlipsis:
‘The Politics of Jesus,’ John Howard Yoder, chapter 10.
Christian Socialist
There is more to the Franklin quote: “but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble. ”
Franklin was NOT a Christian. He was a deist. Attempting to make him what he was not by selectively cutting out quotelets from whole statements is in itself a form of lying, which revisionists do very frequently.
Yes, if you read the whole letter quoted above, it is clear that Ben Franklin was not a Christian in the conventional sense, and never claimed to be.
As for his comment that “I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble,” Franklin was 84 when he wrote the letter and didn’t expect to live much longer– and indeed, he died less than 2 months later.
Here’s the text of that letter:
http://www.beliefnet.com/resourcelib/docs/44/Letter_from_Benjamin_Franklin_to_Ezra_Stiles_1.html
If you read his (unfinished) autobiography, he is much more clear about his unbelief. He was a moralist, but neither religious nor believing.
BG:
Thank you for the link to Franklin’s letter. Simply reading this letter indicates that he was more religious than the average American today. I would guess that most people reading this letter would wrongly characterize Franklin as a Christian. He certainly believed that Christianity was the correct religion, albeit his interpretation of it. Of course, by evangelical or fundy definition he was not, because for one, he didn’t apparently recognize a need for salvation or Christ’s redemptive work. He did believe in the God of the Bible and he believed in an afterlife. Based on the evidence of this letter alone, I don’t see why anyone would say that Franklin was not religious (unless religiosity is dependent on outward actions as opposed to internal beliefs) and also at least nominally a Christian. I think it is splitting hairs to use the term deist instead of Christian. In the context of this conversation, I think a Christian should not be defined as someone who puts their faith for salvation in Christ’s redemptive work on the cross, but rather someone who basically aligns themselves with the moral teachings of Christianity which are derived from the Bible, who believes in the God of the Bible, and who prefers Christianity to other religions or considers it to be superior to other religions. This kind of “Christianity”, while it is not authentic, did, in fact contribute greatly to the formation of our nation. This is what the fundies want to go back to. I don’t think most of them really believe that all our founding fathers were true Christians, but they think the ff were more influenced by Christianity than many of today’s leaders. I think they are correct in that assessment.
Mark
Mark, I think it’s fair to call Franklin a Deist (and Washington and Jefferson Deists, too). He had a vaguely-defined belief in some kind of supreme being, but did not hold to any other religious doctrines. As Dr. Fundystan says, he’s fairly clear about this in his autobiography.
Franklin was largely self-educated, and did not attend church (or seldom did) as an adult, so I don’t know how much he knew or didn’t know about the Bible.
I appreciate the info BG. Obviously you know your history so I will concede your description of BF. Unfortunately, it seems that many famous people in early American times used enough religious language to cause casual students of history to mistakenly label them as Christians. Or perhaps language customs have changed to the extent that only the most religiously devout in our times would speak with as much religiosity as some of our early leaders did.
I feel that it is unfairly harsh to describe this song and other similar fundy expressions as revisionist. Most people, fundy and nonfundy alike, are not historians. Given this, it seems that people could be cut some slack when we see them accepting a common misperception about some of the founding fathers. I mean seriously………I think several of you regular contributors to SFL must have jobs as educators, and some of you have pretty advanced educations. I work in a factory with 300 people. I’ll bet not one of them knows what a deist is. Is it really the fundies’ fault for believing the same things about American history that most Americans believe? I’m sorry I have rambled on so much on this thread, but sometimes I get kind of discouraged about what I perceive to be mean spirited responses at SFL to the foolish antics of the IFB. Sometimes I feel like quoting Jesus with “forgive them–they know not what they do.”
Other times I want to scream “what a bunch of loony idiots!”
Mark
I think there is a difference between the country being founded on Judeo-Christian values and what this song is singing about and what fundies seem to aim for in reality. Even in the song she sings valuing freedom for all–then goes into a list of things we are “allowing”. Our nation may have been founded on Judeo-Christian values but it was not created to be a theocracy. Freedom for all means there will be people who do not share the Judeo-Christian values but as a democracy–they are free. It would be a theocracy if they were not allowed to be free.
Yep. Freedom means allowing things you wouldn’t do yourself, just as free speech recognizes people’s right to say things you don’t agree with.
Agreed. I disagree with gay marriage. I’m not opposed to its legalization. Lots of people disagree with smoking doobies. Yet, it should be legalized. Some folks disapprove of anything but the missionary position. That’s fine for them, but it would be foolish to legislate their disapproval. In contrast, the abortion debate isn’t about approval or disapproval. It’s about civil rights–those of pregnant women and arguably, those of an unborn human child (perhaps a person, perhaps not).
If only people would understand that in America, we are free to live our lives however we choose as long as we don’t trample on the rights of our neighbors to do the same.
The good doctor beat me to the punch, but simply reading Lincoln’s second inaugural address should convince just about anyone that Abraham Lincoln was not an atheist.
And here she is:
http://thecrowncollege.com/music_conservatory/
Hmmm… went to the link, saw the name, and the clicked on “Crown Students Will…” and noted that the Spiritual Objectives had 12 points, and that three of them were soul-winning.
#11 says that they “will enjoy” serving
#6 says “… will respect and appreciate men and women of the past who have served the Lord faithfully and have lived holy lives, handing down to us a great Christian heritage.” I wonder if that includes Billy Graham and the Pope? It should not include Jack Hyles nor Jack Schaap.
As a former Crown grad, I would like to consider the “Crown College students will…” list too (found on the left sidebar):
1. We were never in an environment where we could follow Christ (ie: Being able to read the Bible faithfully, have any sort of prayer life, or witness). Sure, we learned a lot about Him and the Bible, but were never able to foster that relationship much.
3. We were never, never-ever, EVER properly trained to witness or disciple someone. We were thrown into a class with Clarence (which he attended 1 out of 3 times), given “training”, and then expected to do it as our homework! On top of this, we were very restricted from going out witnessing. There was no structure to their witnessing program; it was (and probably still is) very random and disjointed.
5. Their church planting program is a joke. It consisted of one week in the summer. I have personally used none of it in my own work as a church planter, because it is that useless. Their concept of “church planting” is sending someone many states away to start a church and they might support them financially and then come for their charter service.
6. Respect becomes more like worship. As many of you know, some of these men were not worthy of either, because their true selves were conveniently forgotten.
7. …unless Clarence Sexton tells you what God’s will is, then that settles it…
8. They are so good at this, look at where most of their students are now and how good they are at discerning godly things…
10. …as Crown College seeks to hinder that student’s Christian walk every day…
11. …or else (yes, this means you must enjoy working 13 hour days and donating your overtime as “ministry time”) (true story)
Ed 1. *laughing uncontrollably*
2. *laughing becomes choking from laughing so much*
4. …forgetting those that were godly and were not Baptists…
5. *starts to laugh again*
6. *sees “consistent with higher education learning” and laughs harder*
7. *laughing turns to crying, because of the shear deception and lies of that statement*
8. Nope, no practical experience here. Move along please (preferably to a small church were practical experience can be gained)
Social 1. This is difficult, when one is never exposed to any mature individuals outside college students. We were kept far, far away from any preacher, missionary, etc.
2. …because the Bible’s rules are not enough; so we give you a whole bunch of other rules through our handbook that MUST be followed…or else…
4-5. …and we will allowing campaigning in our church and force our voting choices down your throats…
Thanks for letting me vent…
O God of earth and altar,
Bow down and hear our cry.
Our earthly rulers falter;
Our people drift and die;
The walls of gold entomb us;
The swords of scorn divide.
Take not Thy thunder from us,
But take away our pride.
From all that terror teaches,
From lies of tongue and pen,
From all the easy speeches
That comfort cruel men,
From sale and profanation
Of honor, and the sword,
From sleep and from damnation:
Deliver us, good Lord!
Tie in a living tether
The priest and prince and thrall.
Bind all our lives together;
Smite us and save us all.
In ire and exultation,
Aflame with faith, and free,
Lift up a living nation,
A single sword to Thee.
From St. MJartin’s-in-the-Fields, London:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFG-CqYXyOo
Notice the non-drop ceiling, and the absence of a white piano.
Oh, no, they have drop ceiling. It is just very, very, very high up there! No white pianos though…
A wonderful hymn. And very Biblical.
Here’s one of my favorite patriotic hymns (words by Lloyd Stone to a tune by Jean Sibelius):
This is my song, O God of all the nations,
a song of peace for lands afar and mine.
This is my home, the country where my heart is;
here are my hopes, my dreams, my holy shrine;
but other hearts in other lands are beating
with hopes and dreams as true and high as mine.
My country’s skies are bluer than the ocean,
and sunlight beams on cloverleaf and pine;
but other lands have sunlight too, and clover,
and skies are everywhere as blue as mine.
O hear my song, thou God of all the nations,
a song of peace for their land and for mine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8FPOjgX07c
Very nice.
Franklin’s contributions to charitable causes were many, including the founding of Pennsylvania Hospital in 1751, for which he composed the inscription for the cornerstone. It reads:
In the year of Christ, 1755: George the second happily reigning, (for he sought the happiness of the people); Philadelphia flourishing, for its inhabitants were publick-spirited. This building, by the bounty of the Government and of many private persons, was piously founded, for the relief of the sick and miserable. May the God of mercies bless the undertaking!
That was all boilerplate at the time. Nothing about it special to Franklin.
from a letter to Robert R. Livingston, which reveals his strong faith in God….towards the end of his life:
I am now entering on my 78th year; I wish now to be, for the little time I have let, my own master. If I live to see this peace concluded, I shall beg leave to remind the Congress of their promise, then to dismiss me! I shall be happy to sing with old Simeon, “Now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, for mine eyes have seen thou salvation”
Was Franklin saved? It’s not for me to judge. There is no good evidence, that I am aware of, that Franklin ever publicly acknowledged Christ as Savior. But there can be no debate that Franklin’s life was deeply influenced by Christianity, and, as he often pointed out, so was the well-being of the nation – as his maxims and morals, his letters and political writings demonstrate. Of course his life demonstrated goodness by his actions, selfless giving of his talents and money all attest to a Christian value system and world view.