Odds and Ends

Strange Analogies

206 Comments

I cannot possibly refute this logic simply because there is nothing there to refute.

The URL on the picture leads to a church that at the same times claims to be the “friendliest church town but also has this warning at the bottom of their website:

“The public is welcome to attend our services so long as they do not attemp to disrupt them through their words or actions, including non-church solicitation, moral, political, or social protest. Such conduct will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.”

But we’ll prosecute you all friendly-like.

206 thoughts on “Strange Analogies”

    1. There you go with that “logic” stuff, again. In Fundystan, that doesn’t get you anywhere.

    2. Correct. And I’m not saying that you’ll go to hell if you do…. I’m saying you’re not wise!

      2. I think it was the Sumerians who used to greet each other by saying “Bread and beer!”.

  6. So using their “logic” if God made sand, and you don’t put it in your gas tank – then God made alcohol.

  7. I find the comment at the bottom interesting; I wonder what has happened that they feel it necessary to put in such a warning?

    1. So I may be “outing” myself with this story if any of my former church friends read her, but oh well.

      Years ago, a large man came to visit our church. He needed substantial help to get in, get seated, etc. And then one day, he pooped in the hallway. His reasoning was that the bathroom stall wasn’t big enough for him.

      His actions completely and utterly disrupted the service, sent more than a few people running for the bathroom and basically caused a poo-storm (pun more or less intended). He was told never to return. I don’t think they prosecuted him, though, lol.

      He wasn’t the only person to interrupt services (we were in downtown so got quite a few drunk people staggering in off and on and some homeless people on occasion), but he was definitely the worst and most memorable.

      People, ime, do strange, strange things even in church. That warning is more than a little off-putting, but it wouldn’t be surprising to find out they’d been the subject of a protest or random drunk people or something like that.

        2. This is sick but I spent years in a jail ministry and some of those years in the psych ward. I know wherof thou speakest.

      2. My church is also located downtown. Homeless people wander in all the time. They are welcomed. Many are dirty and don’t smell so great, so our college ministry raised funds to have shower facilities built in the church. Although there can be security issues, the church has dealt with those. Truly, most of the homeless we get are very nice and just like to come sit in a climate-controlled building for a few hours and enjoy the refreshments that are served before the service.

        1. I had to reread my comment to see what I’d said denigrating the homeless people. I’m still not sure what it was, but it certainly wasn’t intended. This church actually had a homeless ministry, which of course is rare in the extreme for an IFB church.

          Just to clarify, though, I was saying that people occasionally wandered in — drunk people, homeless people were the two that immediately came to mind. Not that they were all automatically disruptive, but some certainly could be. I should have been clearer in my initial post.

    2. This sort of thing is actually illegal in many states. There have been times, here and there, historically speaking, where people have stood up in the midst of church services and started disrupting the service for one reason or the other.

      1. That happened during a funeral in a UU church recently. Some evangelical outfit had multiple people on hand to protest and make a scene because UU churches are very laid back and liberal. These rude protestors actually disrupted a memorial service by sheer luck and were escorted out. Can you image the pair of coconuts it would take to do something like that?

        BTW does anybody know a more polite word for idiot? I know there is one, but a$$hat is all that comes to mind at the moment.

        1. Japanese: Baka. It isn’t more polite, actually. But I use it.

          If you are asked about it, you can always tell people it is a Japanese word of affection.

  8. So don’t drink sand and don’t try to run my car off a bottle of Jack. Got it.

    I think….

  9. A drink does not need to contain alcohol in order for it to be a ‘strong drink’.

    I suppose at this point someone should list all the benefits that come from drinking wine, especially red wine. I would but as I don’t drink (not because I think its wrong) I will leave it to those who do.

    We should also ask if there are any cartoons extolling the virtues of eating in moderation in order to avoid gluttony?

    ‘Yes God gave us food to eat but why would you put too much of it in your body?’

    What do people like this do with all wine references scattered throughout the Bible? When I was at Bob Jones I remember one of the Bible teachers admitting that yes, it was WINE that Jesus made from water at Cana. Do they just ignore them?

    1. I believe “strong drink” in the Authorized Version stands in for the Hebrew word SHEKAR, which does refer to wine or a particularly strong beer.

    2. My guess is that these folk would interpret “wine” as “grape juice.”

      Which is an anachronism.

      In the 1840’s, the Methodists started to require that only unfermented wine be used in the Lord’s Supper. However, juice will immediately begin to ferment. A Methodist minister, Samuel Welch, pasteurized grape juice and began selling it to churches in 1869.

    3. You raise good points, Elf Dream.

      I don’t drink, either. I also do not condemn those who do. I gave up drinking, along with smoking and gluttony, in the interest of good health and a better, longer life, because my appetites were out of control. It was a personal choice. I think excess is what the Bible refers to as sin, when it comes to “strong drink” and gluttony.

      It is funny though, the BJU crowd, as well as other IFB flavors, always counter comments about gluttony with accusations of how the comments are likely coming from smokers or drinkers, as though those were the real sins, and overeating is some kind of a Godly indulgence, even though it does the body just as much, if not more, harm.

      1. Overeating wasn’t just about harming your own body. There were frequent famines in the Middle East when the Bible was being written, so grabbing a bunch of food for yourself meant that someone else was likely to go hungry. Gluttons are a public menace when there’s not enough food to go around.

    4. They make a lot of excuses. I have heard everything from us fermented grape juice to the notion that they mixed one part wine to several parts water.

      But then, the people who approve of this message would do almost anything to keep from accusing Jesus of encouraging people to do something that was “unwise.”

      Funny how they take one verse and pretend that it is the whole of Scripture.

      Oh, and it isn’t really lying, you know. They just believe that “Scripture should interpret Scripture.”

      2. The mixing in of water thing is actually historically correct.

        The problem with using it as evidence in anti-alcohol crusading is that the straight-from-the-wineskin stuff in the Biblical era was so overpoweringly sweet and so high in alcohol content that the Romans actually used ‘he drinks undiluted wine’ as a euphemism for ‘he is an uncontrolled alcoholic who only drinks to get drunk and is no fun at parties’.

        Ancient Greeks had specific designs of large-mouthed jars that were designed for and only used for diluting wine at parties.

        Modern wine is closer to the diluted wine of the Biblical period than to the undiluted.

        (And this is why Christian groups that pride themselves on ‘our homeschoolers learn Latin’ will never use the Ecce Romani series. There’s an entire CHAPTER on Roman wine dilution culture in Book 2.)

        1. I took a year of Latin in a public high school in West Virginia. And five years of French in junior high and high school.

          The French, or what I remember of it, came in handy 20 years later when I was in France.

          The Latin, um, well it made Greek easier as I already had a handle on the declension of nouns.

          And as for all the Greek I took. I uh, well, I was able to read the liturgy book and follow along with the Divine Liturgy at the Greek orthodox church I attended for a while.

          As for Hebrew, I think I read some dude’s tattoo once.

          Bottom line is who cares if your kids learn Latin. They aren’t European nobles in 1750. It’s of very little use. Even if they go into law or medicine, it’s likely to be of little utility.

  11. What do they do with all the research that shows the health benefits from alcohol in moderation? Wouldn’t that make it more like a fuel injector cleaner or octane additive?

    1. You beat me to it. I was going to say that a beer or glass of wine a day has been proven to lower cholesterol among other benefits.

  13. What about all the prescription drugs some people are on. I know folks who will take ambien like candy so they can sleep, but wouldn’t dream of drinking a glass of wine or beer.

    1. From what I remember, our Fundy churches were anti-medication, at least any medication for sleep or psychiatric reasons.

      1. Isn’t it interesting that the IFB MoGs are experts on psychotropic meds, psychiatry, and all medical issues?

        Lord have mercy.

        1. And yet, had I continued without meds and abandoned my children or committed suicide, I would have been condemned. Damned if I do, damned if I don’t.
          But we all know that the brain is speshul; it can’t become I’ll.

      2. Yep. My old Fundy preacher said depression and mental illness were indications that people had hidden sin, were not trusting God, or were possibly demon possessed.

        He said that medication just “masked” the symptoms. Talk to a medicated person and you couldn’t tell if you were talking to the person or the medicine.

        As if medicine has a personality, or would have any effect on demons! It was rot and nonsense.

        So many things tell me I should have left sooner than I did!

        1. So many times I prayed to be released from the demons of depression! Who knew a little blue pill could cast out the devil?

        2. I was told by my old pastor to not take my daughter to the hospital when she needed it.

          Same man allowed his wife to get psychiatric treatment.

        3. Yeah I have sat in on a bible study that claimed that any sort of mental health issues were demonic involvement, strongly suggested that medicine was not the answer. SMH

        4. My favorite response? My therapist says I’m sane. I don’t know what she’d say for you.

          I also like to say I have a chemical imbalance in my brain.

          Then you stop taking the SSRI and the brain zaps begin.

  14. I don’t think they even have a name for this as far as official fallacies goes, because I don’t think anyone seriously thought people could be stupid enough to argue like this.

  15. I don’t think that verse means what they think it means. Doesn’t it say “whosoever is deceived thereby”? It doesn’t say “whosoever drinks it” is not wise. Fundy universalizing.

    1. Well, yes. Most drinkers, including those who are immoderate in their drinking, will readily admit that alcohol makes you act stupid. I believe the verse says those who abuse alcohol while denying / ignoring the effect it has on their behavior are unwise.

      1. Also, there is a tendency not to recognize how intoxicated one is when one drinks. Alcohol is deceptive in that regard.

      2. Meh alcohol makes me sleepy, not stupid.

        The only time I ever over indulged, I sat there saying things like ” this feeling sucks! People do this on purpose!? WHY!!??”

        3. Fortunately, or unfortunately, I don’t get that feeling. I usually experience euphoria. And I seem to have a naturally high tolerance. Good German and Scots-Irish genes I have. But as I age, the next day… I won’t say it hurts but it’s definitely a struggle.

  16. The power in their lack of logic is that it is dizzying. Any one who is logical will be overwhelmed with what is wrong with their argument that they will be lost in the funk and the fundy goes unchallenged. While one tries to decide if it is best to point out the difference between a car being human made and a human being being God created, or the fact we have yet to design a vehicle powered by sand but we in fact did find fermented fruit could be a healthier drink than dirty water, or the other faults in logic, the fundy walks away feeling they have won the argument.

    The friendly threat on the site is awful but I somewhat understand. Whether it is someone under the influence of drugs or alcohol who comes in and disrupts, or I have had experience with someone who is bipolar coming into the church disrupting during the service, churches are vulnerable to disruptions. I think there might be a more Christ-like response to a disruption than a threat on your website or in your bulletin.

    1. Dear Leanne Zeck:

      The phundy going ‘unchallenged’ is likely the point of the No Disruption policy.

      Christian Socialist

      PS: Just because we don´t put sand in our gas tanks. That doesn´t mean no one would put sand in Pastor Frank´s gas tank.

      PPS: I´m guessing that before the day ends, people will be listing circumstances that could disrupt service at Gethsemane.

      In addition to drugs and alcohol and bipolar conditions which you mention, I would add fainting, loud snoring during the sermon, passing the gas in your tank, and going into labor.

      1. There is a gentleman in my church suffering from alzheimers who sometimes snores a little in the midst of the sermon or actually begins conversations with people across the sanctuary during the service. Thankfully the congregation finds ways to love him rather than scold him.

        And I agree, there seems to be a desire to go unchallenged in fundyland.

      2. Vomiting, bleeding from the nose uncontrollably, spontaneous combustion…

        Being filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues.

        I think they’d prefer drunkenness to tongues, which as we all know, are a sign of demonic activity.

      4. seizures, fainting, sneezing fits, going into cardiac arrest… but I guess these are all just signs of demonic influence anyway

      5. Not unless you did something to make the MOG mad and he uses you as a sermon illustration and becomes the distraction. My theory is that many pastors are attention whore/drama queens.

        Yes I said that…

    2. Not everyone who is bipolar is going to disrupt services. I know several bipolar people who attend church and not one has ever disturbed the services.

      1. That’s kind of a pity, doesn’t let the MOg show off his demon-repelling powers.

  17. Dear Pastor Frank:

    Does pronouncing ‘Noyes’ as ‘Noise’ constitute disruption?

    Christian Socialist

    PS: Jesus specialized in creating contentious moral, political and social situations. If he did so at Gethsemane, would you prosecute Jesus to the full extent of the law?

  19. God made everything, right? Shouldn’t I exercise discernment regarding which of God’s creations I consume or put in my gas tank?

  21. I wonder if I ate a bean and cheese nacho and sat in the service passing gas, would that be disruptive? Or would they just let me sit in my own pew?

  22. Yes, God made water. But not to go in your gas tank!

    If you’re smart enough no to put water in your gas tank….

    Then why would you put chicken in your body?

    Checkmate, Obama lovers.

  23. Of course visitors are welcome.

    But they must realize that just being present at church doesn’t make them Christians. Just like the kittens that climbed into an open oven, and played in there – that didn’t make those kittens biscuits, now did it? You wouldn’t eat those kittens. We must remember that there’s more to being a Christian than just being at church.

    I swear I heard an analogy something like that when I was a kid.

  24. At least the picture shows a guy who appears to be enjoying himself while destroying the body God gave him, er, I mean, having a drink.

    1. Back in my younger fundie days, I used to believe that the moment you had a swig of any kind of alcohol, you were instantly hammered, and addicted. I was never told that this is what happened, but the alarmist attitude toward alcohol was so intense that you really just assumed that this was the case.

      After my departure, I decided to try it after a friend (who had a good laugh at my ignorant expense) explained to me that alcohol didn’t work that way. I was in my early twenties by this time. So I had my first beer with him, and thought it tasted like piss.

      I started drinking black coffee (as apostates usually do, apparently) and after about a year, I had a sip of my then girlfriend’s beer, and loved it. I’m a beer enthusiast now, though a very cheap one.

      All this to say that I’ve had plenty of alcohol and have still yet to experience being drunk. Also that black coffee is the gateway drug to drunkenless alcoholism.

      1. Better stick to gid’s own drink, the very nectar of Heaven, Sweet Tea! 🙄 😀 😉

        2. Because that is the way tea is and has been and always will be served at Church Suppers down here in the Bible Belt. ANYTHING done in the House O’gid, especially since the sacrosanct 1950s, is therefore to be as unchangeable as the written-in-letters-of-flame (by the Bard of Avon himself!) KJV, 1611 edition.

      2. My husband and I had a similar experience with wine. When we were about 30, we decided to ditch the teetotaling thing and try wine. We had no idea what we were doing, so we just headed down to the nearest liquor store (wasn’t sold in grocery stores here at the time) and blindly picked a bottle. We tasted it, looked at each other and said, “THIS is what they made such a big deal about?” It was disgusting. We have since found some that we like, but we still laugh at how disappointed we were on that first try!

        2. When I was visiting the states, Arch Radish was great at helping me to find wine that I would like.

  25. I agree that “being deceived” or “being led astray” by alcohol is not wise. But what a fundy will never admit is that’s what being responsible with alcohol means.

    1. There seems to be a lack a self-control in fundy land, doesn’t there?

      We can’t use alcohol responsibly so don’t drink.
      We can’t control our thoughts/actions around women so they must wear_____.

      I’m pretty sure this institutionalized lack of self-control was called being the “weaker brother” in the bible, and I’m pretty sure it wasn’t a compliment.

      (Note: not saying an individual can’t set his own boundaries. I am saying it seems to be *taught* that you don’t have to leant to control yourself)

      1. In fundamentalism, there are usually only two states. Abstinence or addiction, ignorance (aka, “innocence”) or sinfulness, right or wrong, yes or no, good or bad, responsible or irresponsible, saved or lost, sober (sans alcohol) or totally lush falling-down drunk.

        There are no in-betweens. There are no degrees. It is all or nothing. There is no progression between states. There is no real growing. Growth is the maintenance of the perfect state over time.

        If you muck up, it doesn’t matter how much improvement you might have had. It is all spoiled. One bad day in a month is all that is remembered because the good does not count. One sin, no matter what kind, makes you a bad person (but the person judging you gets a free pass on everything).

        Of course, the same actions, thoughts, whatevers that are sin in you are just errors or mistakes in the MoG.

        1. “One sin, no matter what kind,” …so make sure you pick a really impressive one, folks, because it really has to count! 😀

      2. You’re right about this. I often wonder if people who don’t handle moderation well are just naturally drawn to fundamentalism.

        1. That may well be the case. People tend to create systems to fit certain preferences or predilections. Then they trap others in them.

          Others may be comfortable in an immoderate system until they find their own deviations from the approved “standards” leave them needing grace that those without moderation will not give.

        3. My father always says the attraction of Fundamentalism is “easy answers to hard questions.”

  26. So following this logic, God made water. Jesus turned it into wine, so we should only drink wine, correct?

    1. Jesus made grape juice, not wine, according to some Dr. Fundies.
      We all know that the real party doesn’t start until the grape juice brought out.

  27. Who would put sand into a gas tank anyway? 🙄 Even as an analogy that doesn’t quite work. Now if they were taking about sugar, which really can do a number on the engine, that might work.
    When I was a little girl I made sand cakes for my tea party in the sandbox, and then proceeded to take a bite out of each one, and was heartbroken when they tasted exactly like…. sand. 🙁

  28. This could make for a lot of fun:

    Gid made sand, but not to go into your gas tank.
    If you’re smart enough not to put sand into your gas tank
    then why would you put…

    fundyland knawlidge in your brain?

    yourself into Gethsemane Church?

    your annoying tract in someone’s door?

  29. I’m wondering what kind of car has the gas filler on the right front fender…

    2. Notice that confused-looking, goofy grin on the face of the sand-pourer? It’s because he’s just discovered a gas-cap door that defies all the laws of geometry.

      1. You’re right. I didn’t remember that. Either I’m younger than you or my memory is failing:)

  30. I doubt it does, but the car in the picture looks vaguely like one of the old VW Beetles. That headlight appears cracked, good point for some other tired old Fundy sermon: “And how many of us think we can go thru life with one eye shut?” 🙄

    1. The Wallflowers beat them to it:
      “Come on, try to let up; nothing is forever.
      There’s got to be something better than in the middle.
      If me and Cinderella can put it all together,
      We can drive it home with one headlight.”

  31. If someone with such –um– intelligence says that drinking alcohol is not wise, then I’m off to the friendly neighborhood liquor store!

  33. Their website is really pretty interesting. They are of course KJV only. They don’t use the name “Baptist”, but immersion is pretty prominent in their teaching. Their doctrinal statement is, well, helter-skelter in its organization.

    They don’t take offerings in church.

    1. It does seem like a church unlike any other I’ve come across, at least from what I can see on their site. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a church that proclaims themselves non-denominational be KJV at the same time.

      The big warning flag for me (besides the old-english Bible verses) is the part under “about us” where it states that “After serving for several years as a pastor in a denomination, Pastor Noyes founded Gethsemane Church in Feb. 1977 out of his desire to bring an independent, Bible-believing church to the Pekin area.”

      So he believes his own interpretations of scripture are better than any denomination, and didn’t want accountability. No thanks.

    2. I was interested in their statement that the Bible forbids doctrinal disputes. I see where they find backbiting and gossip, but where does the Bible teach that you can’t disagree on doctrine?

  35. Speaking of lawsuits, I wonder what the guy having a glass thinks of the use of his photo.

  36. Well, the analogy is further made pointless because God did not make alcoholic drinks: they are man-made. You know what God did make? Cannabis! Praise Jah.

    1. Jesus did make wine at Cana.

      But they’d just say it was grape juice anyway.

  37. Reading this and drinking a cool wonderful glass of bavarian beer – that´s enjoyment!

    Shalom
    Hermann

  38. God made sand, but not to put in the gas tank of your car (which He didn’t make).

    And of course, sand in the gas tank will ruin a lot of things, including the engine. A little bit will cause the car to stop working entirely.

    God made alcohol (well, kinda sorta). God made your body (ditto).

    A little alcohol in your system doesn’t cause the body to stop working. In some circumstances, it helps things work better. You don’t expect the body to run entirely on alcohol, but a little as an additive is not harmful for most people.

    Wow. The fundy arguments are so clear and (il)logical!

  39. Instead of “apples and oranges” from now on I’m going to say “beer and sand.” “That’s comparing beer and sand!”

  40. I seem to remember a sermon where Jack Hyles had Doug Fisher “pretend to be drunk” then got him “saved” so he could “finish the race”. Hyles had some weird analogies.

    Schaap did a sermon where he called out HAC grads for drinking on the beach and how the “kids couldn’t wait to get out of Christian Prison” then Schaap said called them morons and would stick his foot down there but (its on YouTube)

    And I also saw a sermon where Larry Brown ranted on Charismatics who drink and that he saw a baptist preacher getting drunk but he’d go to heaven before the charismatic.

    #SMH

    Drink a Busch Light or Keystone Light and toast Jack Schaap today.

  41. But God made all sorts of things we put into our bodies!

    Equating alcohol & sand is not a fair or accurate comparison.

    1. When I worked for Dallas PD, I knew a one armed man who drank gasoline. We’d get a call from a gas station saying a one armed man was drinking from the pump. We knew who it was. He would do one armed pushups when officers arrived.

      It was hell getting him into handcuffs.

      2. Actually we’d cuff his one wrist to the opposite ankle.

        Where there’s a will, there’s a handcuff.

      3. I hope he didn’t smoke at the same time as drinking. That would give him terrible bad heartburn…..

        1. He actually sounds like a fairly normal guy for Dallas. Bald Jones grad will know what I mean.

        2. Yep. He did it many times, and was known for his one arm pushups.

          Another guy drank Prestone on a regular basis. I guess it kept him from freezing up.

        3. When I was working for a university in Belfast I used to have a look through come medical journals.. I saw a scientific paper once on a craze for drinking ETHER in County Tryone, Northern Ireland around the late 19th- early 20th-Century. Men would swig the stuff down them burp up the fumes and this would apparently send them higher than if the simply inhaled it… not good for your heath though…I’ll see if i can find in the Web.

        4. BJG, I could possibly understand drinking Prestone if from, say, Minnesota, but Texas?

        5. Cars do need antifreeze in Texas, for summer as much as winter.
          Antifreeze raises the boiling point of water, as well as lowering the freezing point.
          That’s for cars. For people, I don’t know.

  42. Probably nobody will try it anyway, but you CAN’T prosecute people for “moral, political, or social protest,” unless they happen to do something illegal in the course of the protest.
    Using words, for example, is not illegal.

    1. And that’s what makes all proper, dyed-in-the-wool Fundies so nail-biting mad.

  43. Weird site, they hold to the perfectness and infallibility of the KJV, give the usual Ruckmanite arguments why the KJV is the best bible, leaning a lot on the work of Benjamin G. Wilkinson, a 7th Day Adventist.
    The argument against most modern bibles does hold water, because there are discernible doctrinal differences between the minority manuscripts that form the basis for those modern bibles and the majority text manuscripts.
    Though they don’t acknowledge some of the inaccurately translated parts of the KJV, though it is reasonable to assume that the KJV is one of the best or the best English translation of the majority manuscripts and the Masoretic text from that time up to now.
    That takes care of the general objections against their Ruckmanite views of the KJV.

    Up to a few weeks ago, I was a semi-Ruckmanite and I live in the Netherlands, but there is much to object against the fundy quartet of Ruckman, Chick, Riplinger and Gipp and all their various minions and their associates, I have found some connections to the occult with Ruckman, Riplinger and also Chick [this one thanks to you dear people here, keep up the good work.]

    What struck me is that Noyes teaches that one gets salvation and eternal life freely by believing on Jesus without works, but then he says if you don’t stay faithful, do works, etc. then you can forfeit it, though he says that that isn’t works, which is nonsense, because not sinning is works of the law.
    He conveniently does not pays attention to the “everlasting” part of John 3:16, focuses attention to 2 Timothy 2:11-12 yet conveniently leaves out verse 13, doesn’t say anything about 1 Corinthians 3, never refers to Romans 13:11-14, Ephesians 5:14, 1 Thessalonians 5:4-10 and more verses that confirm unconditional everlasting eternal life once one is saved by grace through belief in Jesus Christ.
    What a disgusting deceiver and fundamentalist guru talking out of both sides of his mouth.

    I’m more and more convinced that christian fundamentalism is just modern pharasaical guruistic cultic brainwashing complete with an occultic background, considering the weird mind control techniques they employ, the nasty sins they themselves do and the bullying they employ to get their way.

    But on the other hand, I do see the error and problem of swinging too hard to other sides.
    Biblical balance is the key. 2 Timothy 2:14-17

    1. “though it is reasonable to assume that the KJV is one of the best or the best English translation of the majority manuscripts”

      I do not think most textual scholars would agree with you. For starters, there are over 3,000 differences between the TR used in the KJV and the majority Byz text. Free and basically pointless textual criticism facts.

      1. I went to a seminar run by an Oxford tutor of biblical studies recently and asked her which Bible translation she recommended, she recommended the New Revised Standard Version.

        1. The NRSV is my favorite, although I recognize that there are other good translations.

        3. NRSV is pretty good. The problem with Bible translations (in English) is that the more “accurate” they are, the harder to understand they are. I actually think the KJV did a superb job in this regard, especially in the OT, even if the meaning is often colored to the point of meaning something slightly different. Reading should be an enjoyment. The NRSV is very good at this as well, and is based on more, and more reliable, texts than the KJV.

    2. It definitely bothers me when churches say that salvation is by grace alone but afterwards you have to work, work, work. This IS works salvation; this is legalism (though they pretend it isn’t). This was the exact thing Paul was addressing in Galatians 3: “having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?”

      Balance is key! “Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left.” Deut. 5:32.

  44. So what am I supposed to do with:

    Eccl 9:7 “Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink they wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.”

    Ps 104: 14-15 “[God] causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man; that he may bring forth food out of the earth; and wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face shine, and bread which strengtheneth man’s heart.”

    Deut 14: 26: “and thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong strong drink, or for whatsoever they soul desireth; and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household.”

    Hmm?

    2. That was under the law, the old covenant. We are now under Grace so we CAN’T do the things they were allowed to do then.

      0.0

      Yeah. Doesn’t make sense. But I’ve heard people say that. They said that to explain away the enthusiastic worship described in Psalm 150 too.

  45. It’s very tellling that the only link under “Doctrine” in this church’s website is “King James Bible.”

    B.R.O.

    1. BigRedOne, the King James Bible tab is a sublink, the Doctrine tab above it links to their doctrine page, of which the last numbered statement has a link to a pdf where they explain their version of conditional eternal salvation.
      But that pastor is a real kook, most fundies would strongly disassociate with him over the salvation issue, as would most nonfundie christians.

      1. I stand corrected.

        I’m having a difficult time navigating the mid-90’s-style of webdesign and layout.

        B.R.O.

        1. Oh, but indeed it is, one would normally not expect such a weirdly working website, but it IS a fundy website and NORMAL rules don’t apply there, cause a fundy made it.
          But after so many years on the internet, one becomes more adept in searching out more nooks and crannies on websites, a handy yet sometimes time-consuming habit.

  47. This analogy was fundy “logic” at its finest. This is the same “logic” which says, “take the Bible literally word for word” but also says, “wine in scripture is really grape juice.”

    At my new Baptist church, the pastors do not tell members to abstain from alcohol, because the Bible does not say “thou shalt not drink alcohol.” We are encouraged to practice moderation and avoid drunkenness. It is rare teaching for a Baptist church. I guess the IFB would consider us Baptist in name only because we love Billy Graham, CCM, most Bible translations, we fellowship with other denominations, and we don’t care what you wear to church.

    When I departed the IFB last Summer, a friend and I celebrated with ice cold Budweisers. Surprisingly, I didn’t turn into a raging maniac.

    1. But, BeALight, you use “fellowship” as a verb. That means that you’re still a fundie.

      1. Chirstianeeze talk is hard to shake off. I’m not sure how true this is, but I heard of a teacher new to public education who got into trouble for telling someone that they “had a servant’s heart”. Sure, it’s a compliment within the church, but not so much to a teenager from a race that has a history involving slavery.

      2. Jay Croft, I’m still in recovery mode sometimes. I’ve been out of fundyland for 14 months. Thanks to SFL, I’ve made a lot of progress! I’ll continue to work on losing the fundy terminology.

    3. “Surprisingly, I didn’t turn into a raging maniac.”

      Ah, well, better luck next time.
      Practice makes perfect.

  49. Ok, but the problem of course is that this isn’t an argument. The metaphor only “works” if you already assume that drinking does to your body what sand does to your gas tank (most likely nothing, although it may gum up your fuel filter). In other words, the conclusion is defined into the premise. And of course, this is a problem because most people who drink don’t actually accept the premise. And then of course the metaphor is just someone’s opinion, and can be easily rejoindered with a metaphor of one’s own, like “You wouldn’t club baby seals to death with a puppy, would you? So why would you play Scrabble?”

    1. Well, no, because puppies don’t make good clubs. I’d shoot baby seals with my shotgun, just as Gid himself intended.

      1. It’s right there in Gid’s holy second amendment. You just need to read your Bible.

        1. So contradictory. Dr F tells us to stop reading, but you’re telling us to read.

          The contradictions in Fundystan often made me wonder, but I thought I was misunderstanding it. It was easier to blame myself for being stupid than it was to look at it carefully and call BS on it all.

        2. Well, I read the Scriptures. And I know them pretty well. I had thought about the ministry for some years after I got saved. Yes, you can put quotation marks around certain phrases and names now, but back then I was a True Believer.

          I learned the doctrines and the pattern of argument fundamentalists have. I could predict the points the preachers would make in their sermons (unless they were, uh, more whacked out than my theology was).

          But when I decided to start looking at the Scriptures in their historical context, things took a dramatic turn. At that time I was also beginning to note both the very real contradictions in Scripture and the very flimsy ways those contradictions were papered over, ignored, and even twisted in the attempt to defend “the inerrancy” of Scripture.

          In other areas I was discovering that people I trusted outright lied about Science in their defense of Creationism.

          I decided that a doctrine or idea or “truth” that had to be defended with lies wasn’t worth believing.

          Which has pretty much developed into discovering that fundamentalism and it’s teachings are massively BS. I really do recommend that people read the Scriptures, not blindly or unquestioningly, but with a critical eye and a desire for clarity.

    2. Yeah, this is pretty much an argument designed to make the people that already agree with their point of view to agree with their point of view.

  50. God made water. When I was 4ish, I played “gas station” and filled my moms tank from the water hose. I learned VERY quickly that was a bad thing. A VERY bad thing. ( I swear that my backside still tingles from that spanking)

    Therefore….water is unwise to drink.

    1. Yes, the “Don’t drink anything you wouldn’t put in a gas tank” rule leads to some interesting places.

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