Doctrine, Preachers

Denial

389 Comments

In a strange fit of unintentional honesty, Bob Gray sums up the issues with fundamentalism in four paragraphs:


[Noah’s sons] knew their father was not perfect. They knew their father was a sinner, drunk, and naked in that tent, but they did not want to see it even though they knew it was true. Anyone who is over you is there because God placed them there in your life, and if you are not careful you will miss the fact that God put them there and you will end up excusing your rebellion because of their imperfection. Here are some sons who said, “We know it’s true, but we don’t want to see it.”

I had the wonderful honor of preaching with Dr. Jack Hyles at least once a month for 22 years. Wait a minute, I knew he was not perfect because he was a human being like me, but I did not want to see his imperfection. I needed a hero. You need a hero. I knew he had weaknesses, but I did not want to see them. I knew he had sins, but I did not want to see them. I refused to allow myself to get that close.

Most divorces are caused because there is no mystique between husbands and wives anymore. Ladies, dress up for your husband like you would for guests in your home. Most church splits are caused because people become too close to each other. They begin to see all the warts. They see all the imperfections. They see all of the sins and here comes trouble in that church.
If you become too close to a staff member, let me tell you what you will find! As it is written, he is not righteous, he does not understand, and he does not seek after God. Let me tell you what you will find if you get too close to anyone. Romans 3:10-18 describes what you will find. Paul is speaking here about the Jews and the Gentiles. The Jews thought they were better than the Gentiles. The Apostle Paul is saying you are no better than the Gentiles. He describes every human in these verses. This is the biography of Dr. Jack Hyles, Dr. John R. Rice, Dr. Curtis Hutson, Dr. B. R. Lakin, Dr. Lee Roberson and the Dr. Tom Malone’s of this world.

We have lost our mystique! You are going to find that your wife has the poison of asps under her lips, she is unprofitable, a throat that’s an open sepulcher, a tongue that uses deceit, her mouth is full of cursing and bitterness, her feet are swift to shed blood, and wives who become too close to their husbands will find the same thing out about them.
Let me see the beautiful forests, but do not let me become too close to see the knots, broken branches, dead branches, serpents, insects or the spiders. Let me stay at a distance and see the autumn time as the forest puts her coat of many colors on like Joseph of old. Let me step back and see it! Don’t let me become too close to see the diseased and dying tree. These two boys said, “We know daddy is a sinner, but we do not want to be reminded that daddy is a sinner.”

Denial is a virtue. Truth is overrated. Fantasy and magical thinking is what we need more of.

389 thoughts on “Denial”

    2. I separate from solo for his first, and separate from RobM for separating from solo – because he separated for the wrong reason. Given that both these men have vacated their first through moral failure, I grant this first as an honorary love offering to Dr. Jack Hyles.

  2. I’m pretty sure the problem is that many church members aren’t close enough. As in they don’t really love each other, so the body tears itself apart.

    Anyone who “needs a hero” would do well to look to their savior

    1. Yes! So when one messes up, the knee-jerk reaction is to ban them (unless they’re big enough tithers). No grace or understanding, just not wanting to get tainted by a fellow sinful human.

      Now if it’s a preacher, the denial comes in. But for lowly church members, you’re kicked to the curb. and it’s all hushed up.

  4. Awwww, I was gonna say FIIIIIIIIIIIRRRRRST (in a singing voice), but captain got me.

  10. “Most divorces are caused because there is no mystique between husbands and wives anymore.” Yes, this makes sense…don’t get too close to your spouse or you might just realize they are human like you *gasp* >.>

  12. The less you know the more they can get away with. I apologize to all the grammar nazis for my poor sentence structure

        1. Oh, Troublewit! How beautiful a sentence you composed! It relieves the pain I suffered this morning of hearing my local news anchor say “more safer”.

  13. From later in Bob’s ramble:
    There is not a man or woman reading this article who can withstand close scrutiny.

    I never claimed to be perfect. I have my sins. So how does that make them okay, especially if I am in a position of leadership?

    I’m also wondering what skeletons are about to fall out of Gray’s closet that has him so worked up about denial as a good thing.

    2. Everyone has faults, but how one deals with their failures makes all the difference in the world. The point of an apology is not so much to atone for what you did, but to let others know you see the problem and aren’t going to try to game them by denying it.

      1. This ^^

        The Bible talks about failures for a reason. To show that we need Christ, to show that we’re no better than anyone else. It’s how you deal with it. Repentance and changing your ways, not trying to get out of jail or blasting those confronting you.

  14. Wasn’t Paul describing the unregenerate in Romans 3? I’m sorry, but if I find out a person on staff at my church does not seek for God, I’m going to call for his resignation.

    Maybe Jack Hyles and Bob Gray don’t seek after God, but I do. Not perfect by any means, but that doesn’t mean I don’t try.

  15. Wow, that’s some nasty id rising up from the deep subconscious and speaking there. Misogyny and MOG worship.

    If only the little missus would just put on a nice frock once in a while, they’d have a good marriage.

    1. You are giving in to the ethos of this blog and dragging out terms like “abuse” and “misogyny” at the drop of a hat. This is more of an ugly American problem than a “fundamentalist” problem. Ever walked outside your door and looked around? The majority of Americans in modern society, both men and women, are fat! I don’t have a problem with someone who stands against this cultural laziness and think there is nothing wrong with trying to not completely let yourself go. What the Sam Hill does physical fitness have to do with misogyny?!? If your wife wants you to keep a job and not get fat and lazy and not bother to go to work, is she somehow a misandrist? Yes, you can take it too far. Just look at Hollywood. Age does happen, and physical bodies do break down. There’s no point in denying this truth and trying to live out some unrealistic ideal. But Americans in general have gone to the extreme in the opposite direction and have become total slobs with no care at all about physical fitness and don’t mind completely letting themselves go.

      2. “Bodily exercise profiteth little”…I’m just saying.

        So my wife and I were driving down our country road the other day (which still has quite a bit of traffic on it). We saw a jogger. She asks, “Why would you pick THIS road to jog on?” I said, “The better question is, why would you jog?”

        Just thought this story might fit in here.

      3. Just for the record, I think keeping our bodies at a relatively decent level of fitness is necessary. After all, our bodies ARE a reflection of Christ. I think we’re a pretty poor testimony for the gospel when our gut hangs over our belt (no offense to anyone who is in this shape). That scripture just popped into mind.

        1. I’m sorry but this appearances = testimony is a sham, Christ is our testimony, not on how you present yourself! That where all of this gets started!!

      4. “You are giving in to the ethos of this blog and dragging out terms like “abuse” and “misogyny” at the drop of a hat.”

        Is it just me or did the relevancy to previous comments stop there? How did we get onto the topic of fat Americans? How does that topic relate to using the terms “misogyny” and “abuse”? How does using those terms define the ethos of this site?

        More importantly how do you know about the fat neighbors I see when I step out of my door? Have you been hiding behind one of them, spying on me?

        1. My comments were not a non sequitur. From the article: Ladies, dress up for your husband like you would for guests in your home.

          This was just one little part of the article and not even the main point, but I thought it was an interesting point. This has nothing to do with wealth or social status or anything like that, so this is not a discriminatory comment. You do not need to be rich to avoid the typical American sloven look: fat, unkempt, just got out of bed, hippie look. Granted, this can become too much of a concern as well. Just look at Hollywood, or much of LA in general, even those who are not in the film industry. But just because some Americans obsess too much over superficial, temporal, physical things, that doesn’t mean it’s good to take the extreme opposite approach and become the typical slob who no longer cares at all and just lets it all hang out. I’m not saying dressing in culottes or in some Victorian era livery either. That is just odd and sometimes smacks of arrogance. (Not always, but it can.) It’s as if you’re saying through your odd dress that sticks out like a sore thumb: “I’m soooo modest. I’m soooo prim and proper. Look at just how modest I am.”…..I’m just saying that there is nothing wrong with not dressing like a slob and not totally letting yourself totally go. Maybe I’m odd, but I don’t see a problem in trying to look attractive for your spouse.

        3. Hi, Stacy…

          I have never heard of a divorce happening because “my wife doesn’t dress up for me”

          That is what is important, perhaps, to Bob Gray.

          The pains we take on behalf of others shows how important they are to us. It is for both husbands and wives to find out what matters to the other and demonstrate THAT when they want to show the other how important they are to them.

          I have learned a few things that my wife really likes, and when I do them, she feels special.

        4. @stacymcanderson

          “From the article: Ladies, dress up for your husband like you would for guests in your home. ”

          Reading my questions and then reading your response, I have to ask . . . are in politics, professionally I mean? It’s just rare to see this level of skill at dodging direct questions and diverting conversation outside of the political universe.

        5. Uncle Wilver,

          I don’t know if fat Americans are the result of chemtrails. Although, this certainly could be a result. Some theorize that the chemtrails are altering the quality of food products, with the end result being less nutritious and more junk food. I really have no idea. Others think that chemtrails are nothing but a radar/defense aid used to enhance geothermal communications. There are a few theories out there as to the purpose of chemtrails, but so far it’s a mystery. The only thing that is not a theory is that they are in existence and we are being sprayed at this point now almost on a daily basis.

          We can debate back and forth all day about the reasons for chemtrails, because there are a few viable theories out there. The only thing that is not up to debate is the fact of chemtrails themselves. Anyone who actually denies the existence of chemtrails is hopelessly naive and dangerously gullible.

        6. “The only thing that is not up to debate is the fact of chemtrails themselves. Anyone who actually denies the existence of chemtrails is hopelessly naive and dangerously gullible.”

          No, the only people who are ‘hopelessly naive and dangerously gullible’ are the ones who deny basic meteorological science for some grand conspiracy of “chemtrails”.

        7. There are no chemtrails. What there are are clouds formed by the low pressure area of an airfoil as it passes through the correct temperature/humidity combination.
          What you and other paranoids are worried about is simple water. Harmless, even helpful, if not ingested to excess.

        1. My comments weren’t meant to be humorous. I was just pointing out a bit that I agreed with.

          I also have points where I disagree. The whole point about heroes is something that is typical of the Hyles crowd. For the life of me, I don’t understand how the Hyles people can make so much out of people that they almost worship a pastor. Pastors in other denominations are revered and honored and respected, pastors in Southern Baptist congregations are revered and respected, priests in parishes are revered and respected, etc. For whatever reason, there is this whole philosophy in the Hyles crowd that pastors are supposed to be worshipped as if they are Tom Landry or Joe Namath or the pope, or something like that. My experience with the Hyles crowd is that they focus way too much on man and basically worship the pastor, not only figuratively speaking, but pretty much literally speaking as well. It seems to be endemic to the Hyles crowd and not other IFBs, at least in my experiences.

        3. Being called a troll by someone with such an ignoble, uncouth moniker as “proctologist” is hardly an insult. Seems like I heard something once about some pot calling a kettle black.

      7. Um, no.

        He didn’t say a word about staying fit. He said “dress up.” Another shining examples of fundies looking on the outside-iest of outside appearances and ignoring the heart.

        Wait, no – Dr. Gray has moved beyond ignoring. Now he wants you to actively avoid looking too closely at someone because they might be horrible inside. But as long as all skirts cover the knee and men keep their hair short enough, everything will be fine.

      8. Stacy, you would’ve loved the mog at my old IFB church who would mock his wife loudly in front of all of the ladies of the church at a baby shower for eating cake because he thought she was not keeping her girlish figure.( She was not that overweight either)

        I suppose that Jesus must’ve made a mistake. He REALLY meant there were two grounds for divorce: infidelity and in-flab-ility.

  16. Jesus,
    You’d better not come down here and get too close. You might see us for what we are and that would spoil the mystique! What? You already know? Your love for us overlooks our faults. You love us for who we are. You’re the safest place for us to be – close to you. And you want us to be transformed into your image. But my preacher (my HERO) wants me to conform to his belief system and sin management program(s). And he’s over me – my mediator. What? Dump my preacher, love others, get close to them and let your love flow through me, follow you. – OK.

    2. Beautifully written. Makes me think of the song, “You can have all this world, but give me Jesus.” The Fundies don’t have Jesus. 🙁

  17. What a pathetically inept use of Scripture. A living, breathing blind leader of the blind.

  18. This is a truly astonishing piece of candor on “Dr.” Gray’s part.
    It shows he knows he’s deluding himself and those who choose to believe him.

    2. He’s leading by example: he sees the sins — he looks away from the sins. He’s just walking what he’s talking.

  19. What’s up with this “Dress up for your husband like you would for guests in your home” crap? Why on earth do you have to be dressed up in your own house in front of your own immediate family?

    1. Because as your husband’s concubine, you don’t want to lose favor and have him turn to another member of his harem.
      I guess.

      Or, in keeping with today’s theme, maybe you don’t want him to know what you really look like. 🙄

    2. So, is he blaming Beverly Hyles for Jack’s shenanigans? If so, that is a vicious, crass attitude.

      When “libruls” and “Hollywood elite” cheat, they are low down servants of Satan. When mogs cheat, it’s their wives fault. I’m beginning to understand.

      1. If Beverly had just worn high heels and string of pearls to do housework, none of that, um, unpleasantness would have happened.

        1. From what I’ve heard, Beverly Hyles was *always* impeccably dressed. So that one doesn’t work.

        2. She instructed to always be dressed for your husband in one of her books. Oh, and sit properly. I think the book was called, “Completer” or something. (Odd, it’s not listed on the Hyles Publications page.)

          But, yes, I had that book. Yes, I practically memorized it.

          Yes, I was a MAJOR fundy. *hangs head* I actually grimace every time I see Jill Duggar on TV. I was a lot like her. *still hanging head*

        4. @Natalie: Was the book titled “Completer” or “Competer”?

          This notion seems to pit women against each other as all vying for the MoG’s sexual attention

      2. It’s simple logic Unc. If a woman doesn’t rise before her husband to be fully dressed (with pantyhose) and made-up with his breakfast hot and welcoming, then he will be forced to stop at the 7-11 for a doughnut and coffee. At the 7-11 he will be asked by a woman cashier says, “Good morning, how are you?” He will be overcome with neglected lust and have an affair because he is a victim and helpless man and his wife should repent and put on lingerie.

        2. Because nothing is more tempting and sinful than a woman bearing fresh doughnuts. 😀

        3. So that’s why my wife has occasionally made doughnuts for me………

          WOW. I goofed up big time over thirty years ago. I told my wife not to get up just to fix me breakfast, because I know how to pour milk over cornflakes and granola, which is my preferred breakfast. And that was when I got up at seven. When I began getting up at four-thirty, I definitely didn’t expect her to get up with me. I also can’t think of any “mystique” in the relationship, other than I try to surprise her on her birthday. I guess I only thought we were happily married.

          Unless, of course, it’s the mystique of what goes on when it’s no one else’s business!

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XU9hDIqwLgQ

  20. “You are going to find that your wife has the poison of asps under her lips, she is unprofitable, a throat that’s an open sepulcher, a tongue that uses deceit, her mouth is full of cursing and bitterness, her feet are swift to shed blood …”

    Nonsense. None of those things are true about my wife.
    Does she have flaws? Definitely, and some of them drive me crazy. Does knowing about the flaws stop me from loving her? Of course not. The more I know about her, the more I also know about her virtues. The reasons I married her are still there.

    2. The only time my wife’s feet are swift to shed blood is when I say or might say something innapropriate/ ridiculous/ or otherwise undesireable in company and she kicks me under the table.

      She’s had a lot of practice . . . .

    3. Um. “Feet that are swift to shed blood” describes premeditated murder. What.

      1. Nothing but a play on modern uses for antiquated phrases. My wife has not planned any murders.

    4. That WAS some crazy reading. I didn’t expect him to go there. It’s one thing to say that when you get close to someone, you see their flaws, but he went WAY beyond that.

  21. I thought most divorces happened because people kept secrets from each other…..?

    I think someone is hiding something. Best to fess up now and avoid the fallout later.

  22. Just when I think that I can’t read anything more stupid from a fundy extremist than I’ve already read…..along comes this. I am utterly speechless.

  23. God’s desire is for us to put closeness to Him above all our human relationships. You should spend more time in Bible study than you spend doing stuff for your wife! Otherwise you are making her into an idol, and God will not bless a family where the head of the household is an idolater.

      1. Been having trouble finding a wife who is truly willing to put her God-given duty of serving her husband over her own desires for rest and relaxation. So many women nowadays have been corrupted by the feminist ideology, to where they even expect a man to be distracted from serving the Lord to help with dishes!

        1. Whatsoever you do, do all to the glory of God. So why can’t a man serve God by doing dishes?

        2. First of all definite poe. Nailed the thoughts, but they were put far too grammatically well and concisely to be real to me.

          Second, I am a firm believer in this “feminist ideology.” Women have been basically punished for existing for far, far too long.

          And as to how traditional religion treats women… that’s a whole ‘nother can of worms.

        3. Haha Poe.

          Funny you mention that it’s the wife’s duty to serve her husband.

          Pretty sure (if you take the complementarian view) that the wife’s job is to submit. Which I’ve heard is different than servitude. Also pretty sure the priority is to be like Christ.

          Side note: does anyone who holds the complementarian view have a legitimate working definition of submission that does not indicate the wife is beneath her man? My friends and I (who graduated from a fundy college) have been discussing that women were always told to submit and then told they’re no lesser than the man that they are a team etc. So what IS submission?

        4. It’s really frightening how accurate this sounds…even when I tried to make it ridiculous and over-done. Poeing is actually surprisingly scary, because you realize how many utterly ridiculous things you accepted as gospel truth.

        6. Lukewarm, this is an excellent question. I don’t personally believe there is an appreciable difference between functional subordination and ontological subordination, not least because any mismatch between the two (e.g. slavery) is seen as monstrously unjust. But also because ontological subordination decoupled from functional subordination is just a word game. It has no reflection in reality.

        7. Uncle Wilver,

          If you want to know what a poe or a troll, or whatever it’s called is, this Fundamental guy right here is your example!

  24. If you get so close to a church staff member that you find yourself looking at his testicles, then you are, like Ham and Noah, far too close. Bob Gray forgot to mention that what Ham did was evil and was NOT covered up. His brothers covered up the exposed victim, but the infamy of what Ham did has been passed down since the days of the flood. That sure wasn’t covered up.

    1. I don’t know why, but this is HILARIOUS. If you are so close you’re looking at his testicles you are too close. Yes, that would probably qualify as an “invasion of one’s personal space”.

      1. I’ll just say, from a personal conviction, I usually try to refrain from talking about “private” anatomy (I used to be VERY vulgar) just to keep my speech as clean as possible. But this comment made me laugh out loud!!! (that deserved to be spelled out instead of the typical LOL).

        1. Thank you, but I really wasn’t trying to be funny, just ironic. Noah didn’t commit the evil: Ham did. And what Ham did was, in fact, evil. Noah, the victim, was given a covering and had his dignity restored. Ham’s evil has not been covered. It has been retold and retold from then until now. Once again Bob Gray Sr displays his ignorance.

        2. I understand where you were going with that. But just the thought of being so close (and at the right level) that you are looking at one’s testicles struck me just right as to be hilarious.

      2. It was Noah’s fault. He should have donned his pajamas before passing out dead drunk. Prevents fallout when the blankets become awry.

        1. Actually, if Mrs. Noah had passed out drunk and naked, the entire episode would’ve been her fault, and only her fault.

    1. Robot Gypsy, that is what I am wondering. My brain is in knots and my stomach wants to puke. The sad thing is, it is some of the most honest IFB truth I have read in a long time.

  26. ????? Be an emotional zombie and dress up for your husband – sounds Biblical. Because there’s no intimacy in the scriptures.

    1. Yeah I don’t think the problem is she doesn’t dress up. The problem is he can’t get that knee length dress off..

    2. This shows Gray’s misogyny. Women, even wives, are just sex objects. They don’t have any ideas worth hearing, no opinions worth evaluating. Just hussy it up gals and you’ll keep that man.

  27. “Ladies, dress up for your husband like you would for guests in your home.”

    I wanted to puke when I read this. I used to hear all the time growing up that you need to cultivate “mystique” in a marriage. That you shouldn’t be “too close.”

    Not only is this unbiblical, it’s frightening that it is taught and believed. Scripture tells you to become “one” with your spouse. And you cannot be closer to anyone than you are to yourself.

    I just thank God that I had parents who didn’t play into this crap. My dad thought my mother was the most beautiful woman in the world and yet didn’t wear rose colored glasses regarding faults. In fact, he loved her more for them.

    The lack of transparency within our homes and churches is one of the reasons we are in this mess in the first place.

    I truly feel sorry for Bob Gray because of this way of thinking. It must be really hard to live your whole life a certain way and then begin to realize maybe it wasn’t as righteous and perfect as you thought it was. So you cling to your untruth even harder than before. But you still lose….

    Ladies, you don’t have to be perfect. And don’t let any preacher, or leader or random person tell you that your worth as a woman, daughter, wife, sister or friend is directly related to whether or not your hair is done. Because it’s not. Your worth is in HIM!

    Rant done…..lol

    1. To add to this – I don’t think dressing any way has to do with the “mystique” of marriage. If I want to dress nicely for when my husband gets home, that’s great. It doesn’t mean I am any less close to him in that outfit as opposed to sweatpants and a t shirt. We still talk the same, share how our days went the same, eat dinner the same, put the toddler to bed the same, and so on.

      1. Could not agree with you more – to think that an article of clothing determines closeness and intimacy is ridiculous and ignorant.

        1. I mostly agree… however, if we have, at separate times, Mr & Mrs X, Mr & Mrs Y, and Mr & Mrs Z, and my wife took the time to dress up ONLY when Mr X was coming (and this became a repeated pattern), I’d start to wonder why Mr X was worth taking the trouble for but never me.

          I know that we cannot always be “dressed up” for each other all the time, but if I am taking her out, I get into better clothes than my “hanging around the house” clothes. She is worth taking the time & trouble over.

        2. Totally agree with you when you come at it from that perspective. Each spouse should take the time to look nice for the other. That’s shows mutual respect and a desire to please the other. But you never hear people like Gray say that it is a two way street. And that is where I have issue. Especially coming from a man whose wife has been bedridden for much of their married life. How does she feel when she hears crap like this? But I do agree with your point of view.

        3. Guilt Ridden – of course. I love to dress up to look nice for my husband. I just hate the thought that if I’m not dressed up, for whatever reason – it means I’m letting my husband see my “faults.” He sees them plenty no matter my attire. 😉

    2. Odd that the Proverbs 31 woman description doesn’t mention that her hair was done. Her beauty was from her industry. The description of her dress was done to show the fruits of her labor. Her husband had no fear of spoil not a fear of true intimacy caused by the “loss of mystique”.

      I distinctly remember one night shortly after leaving the IFB church. Hubby and I sat across from each other just staring and we agreed that we had no clue who the other really was! All we had known was our projected fundy role or persona.

      1. Oh Jumper, I hear you…. And thank you for properly quoting Proverbs 31 woman! She is a fierce woman of God! In response to not knowing yourself – As unhealthy as it is, you become so accustomed to how you were “supposed” to be, and “who” you were supposed to become. Always struggled with that as a kid and into my teen years. Seemed really easy for other friends to fit that mold of a “meek and submissive” woman, while I just had lots of opinions and questions. If it didn’t make sense I would ask why. Interesting that my father was the only one who appreciated that, lol. After he passed away, I fell back into the rut of trying to force myself to act a certain way for approval and validation. Thank you Jesus for showing me that I am fearfully and wonderfully made by HIM and he has grander plans for me than I could ever have for myself.

      2. In fact, the poem specifically mentions that beauty fades and is therefore not a desirable criterion for marriage.

    3. I agree! I came from almost the exact same situation– being told to somehow be one with your spouse but that keeping a “mystique” was the best way to make it work. Fortunately my parents truly loved each other too. I do t think my dad really (even still) gives in to the common fundy ideals. And frankly, my love is ten times more adorable when she is in sweatpants and one of my shirts!

      I would also like to say, this is why fundies participate in all those physical contact standards. It attempts to keep that mysticism between men and women. In the end though it is all just psychological training and it is not good. When I entered my first job in retail it took around three months to get used to the quick physical contact that was just part of the job.

      1. I was very fortunate to have a dad who rejected fundy standards. Which is why I have a deep appreciation for classic rock and roll music, lol. My mom was super into it though, and he just loved her through it. I hear you though about the no-contact issue. When I started going to my current church (non-denom), it took me awhile to get used to being hugged all the time, hah! Especially from all my guy friends and the pastors. I had friends in fundyland that would get weird about giving “high fives” because it was so unclear what was “acceptable” and what wasn’t:(

        1. Haha we couldn’t even high five either!!! Oh and it’s kinda unbelievable, but I posted my comment all the way at the bottom before you said you like classic rock… 😀

          Oh an lo it was the same way with me, my mother is still super into it, but every time we talk I try to subtlety point out the flaws and let her realize how bad it is

        2. My favorite moment of all time was in fundy college when two guys almost plowed over my roommate in the hallway. And rather than apologize for almost trampling her, they started high fiving each other because they hadn’t actually touched her. I was soo mad I responded, “Good job. Because we all know she would be pregnant if you had touched her.” My roommate then proceeded to fall on the floor laughing, and I never was asked out on a date again…. Poor me, lol

        3. Ha my last semester at FU they made it a rule that guys and girls couldn’t high-five because it was too “casual.”

          *barfs*

      1. Thanks:) Just still hurts my heart to know young, impressionable girls hear this trash and then look for guys that will have this expectation of them. It’s training women to choose abusive men as their life partners. It’s wrong and I rebuke it, haymen? Lol

      1. Darn! I hoped that might post the picture – it’s a comic of “reality” wedding vows.

  28. By this bit of anti-logic the same rules could apply to all the people OUTSIDE of Fundyland whom the MOG’s are always railing against; Billy Graham, Rick Warren, N.T. Wright, and some mythical CCM gods we keep hearing about named Steve Green and Sandi Patti 8)

  29. “We have lost our mystique! You are going to find that your wife has the poison of asps under her lips, she is unprofitable, a throat that’s an open sepulcher, a tongue that uses deceit, her mouth is full of cursing and bitterness, her feet are swift to shed blood”

    Seriously, he views his wife and women like this, but thinks that Jack Hyles is God’s gift to mankind writing multiple books about how wonderful Hyles is?

    Typical wedding vows include, “in sickness and in health till death….” Nothing says keeping the mystique in marriage like caring for a sick spouse. As long as the wife is dressed up like she is entertaining guests while she ill that mystique will be maintained.

    1. Absolutely! Nothing says mystique like a spouse holding a trashcan for you while you vomit because you couldn’t make it to the bathroom. On the other hand, it is character building for the holder and gratitude inducing for the sick.

    2. I just went to his blog page. He is so incredibly full of himself. He has NO clue about marriage by the things he is saying. It makes my head spin reading his crap!!!!

      1. Now what did you do that for? You’re just upset because you made him lose his mystique!

  30. I think the better course of action is learning how to deal with human failure. This is obvious to the rest of us, but not to Bob Gray. How lonely and superficial must your life be if you keep everyone at arm’s distance so as not to see their faults?

  31. Okay, now I have a headache. Not from the article itself, but from the after effects of banging my head on a wall.

    This is old school Fundyland stuff. Complete with dark suit, white shirt and lapel pin.

    My opinion is that these guys grew up in the ’50’s, and they want to keep the social ideals of the decade. The dressing up for your husband stuff is a prime example. There’s no Scripture that instructs to do this. Quite the opposite. The music, the suits, the oppression of people, all post-WWII stuff.

    1. My old pastor went on a whole sermon/rant where he talked about how he wouldn’t ever get a screen, sit on a stool to preach, etc etc because it’s not how he remembers church being when he was a kid. And he was in his 60s at least, so yeah, probably grew up in the 50s.

      It’s just so stupid and nonsensical.

  33. To Dr. Gray, I offer this rebuttal:

    “Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor. For each will have to bear his own load.”

    /Drops mic

      1. Thank you! Although I just realized I quoted from the ESV rather than the 1611 KJV so my point is null and void in the eyes of Dr. Gray, I’m sure.

  34. Isn’t this the same Bob Gray who titled his self-published Jack Hyles biography “When Principle Was King”?

    I guess “When Lip Service to Principle Was King, and Don’t Tell Me the Reality, Because I Don’t Want to Know” was too long a title.

    Look for Bob Gray’s forthcoming book, “La La La, I’m Not Listening.”

    2. Great book title. Maybe he will really publish such a book, just to spite his critics – we know he is a “fan” of Bassenco.

  35. “Anyone who is over you is there because God placed them there in your life…”

    That there has got to be the single most asinine and deceitful statement I’ve ever heard in my entire life. Congratulations, Bobby Boy, you’ve outdone yourself.

    1. Funny how Gray and his gang dispute the sovereignty of God UNTIL it comes to them and their authority. THAT, of course, is held by the sovereign will of God and must never be questioned or diminished….

    2. Wonder if he’d say that about the current commander-in-chief? The U.N.? His congressman? Or does this only apply to the multi-level marketing (ahem) I mean IFB church structure?

      1. I would say that they think that only applies to their “Mog”dom. I recently heard a IFB pastor say that the authority of the pastor and the new testament church is greater than that of the Supreme Court. Talk about a power trip…

    3. All I can see in my mind is Bob Gray or someone else with the same mentality, sitting across from someone who has been abused, raped, harassed, etc, looking them in the eye and saying, “That person abused you because God put them there…..”

      and now I want to weep….

    1. Give him the benefit of the doubt. He may not have yet plumbed the depths of utter stupidity, although this comes close. But he may produce something even more stupid. He’s surprised me before.

  37. So instead of fixing the old rickety bus the church bought, we paint it with a shiny new coat of paint.

    Instead of following building codes, we hang pretty pictures in the deathtrap of a new church building.

    Instead of recognizing a woman’s intrinsic and God-given beauty, we “paint the old barn”.

    Instead of driving out convicted sex offenders, we “give them grace” by letting them attend church with unattended minors present.

    Instead of paying our staff a decent wage, we order them to dress in suits and keep their cars waxed, washed and armor-all-ed, so that it looks like all is well with them financially.

    Instead of purging the filth, we keep whitewashing those sepulchers.

      2. Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

        And then Jesus said “Unless you want someone who cannot be trusted around children to lead your church, then by all means, kick the children out.”

      3. SMH

        One parishioner said they were “passionate about doing the right thing and the right thing is giving another person another chance.” Why? Why do people side with the perp and not the victims, with the powerful not the helpless?

        One clue might come in the next sentence: “This chance also helps Christ Tabernacle out financially. Attendance was down, but with Gilyard it has increased.”

    4. J.J., I don’t know if you realize it, but you have just written the real policy manual of a great many churches.

  38. The issue is not one of judgement but it is one of trust. We can trust someone even if they are not as perfect as we would like. But why should we trust a man who cheats on his wife? Or who has sex with underage girls? Or is horribly verbally abusive? Or who tries to isolate others from the truth? Denial is a trait of the fearful and like a rattlesnake it is their fear that makes them so dangerous.

  39. At first, and I’m still not sure, was he writing this as what we as humans do, or was he writing this as advice for what we SHOULD do. Because keeping people at arm’s length IS our human nature. But we SHOULD get so close with people that when we see their failures and they see ours we can help each other with those faults and failures. So, if he was saying “this is what we do and we shouldn’t” good. If he was saying “this is what we should do” bad.

    1. Norm, go to his blog. You’ll get a clear picture of sheer narcissism and just how much he THINKS he knows and just how much he thinks things ought to be. Just make sure you have a strong stomach for it will make you ill.

  40. There’s a really fat preacher out in Texas (on TV a lot) who probably tips the scales at 300 pounds. His wife must really love him because they have kids. I don’t think I’ve heard him preach a sermon on gluttony.

      1. Yes. Senior moment. Plus I have a tendency to forget the name of inconsequential people.

  41. This article is proof positive how Christless and Gospel-void these people are:
    – They need a hero because Jesus isn’t their Savior
    – They need to overlook sin because their sins are not covered by Christ’s blood
    – They need distance and “mystique” because being too close will expose one another’s sins and they don’t know how to deal with them, because they don’t believe the gospel.

      1. I’ve been on the internet too long! People write things like I did above and mean it sarcastically so I should clarify that I was NOT being sarcastic.

        I really, really liked your point, WillLD. It’s stunning in its implications.

    1. Ha! I hadn’t heard that one before.
      Those lyrics are clever.
      I can’t say I like the instrumentals or visuals much, but that’s my own personal taste.

  43. Someone’s still Holding out for a Hero while Living on a Prayer with his self – built Stairway to Heaven. He doesn’t know What Love’s got to do with It.

    2. All he knows is that he’s “knocking on heaven’s door” all the while trying to avoid “hell’s bells”

    3. I Imagine he think’s he’s going to Show Me The Way but School’s Out for Summer and I’d rather see him tied to Whipping Post or a team of Wild Horses

  44. When I read his rant against women, I physically shuddered knowing there are males in his church who probably, hay-men’d and then looked at their already run-down, belittled wives and felt evil hatred for their, “poison of asps under her lips, she is unprofitable, a throat that’s an open sepulcher, a tongue that uses deceit, her mouth is full of cursing and bitterness, her feet are swift to shed blood.”
    Thank you Bob Gray for not just perpetuating lies, but putting husband against wife. You are a class-act and I can’t help but hope you choke on your words.

  45. This is not funny at all. This is wicked. It is also shot through with error, both factually and logically.
    1) I question the assumption that God places anyone “over you”. We all have different vocations in the body of Christ, but Jesus said very plainly that “over” was a contradiction of what he came to establish.
    2) No, I do NOT need a hero. In fact, the concept of hero is derived primarily from pagan Greek concepts of personal honor and glory.
    3) The number one cause of divorce is money; that is a documented fact. How dare anyone blame a woman’s dress around the house for divorce. That is absurd and absolves the husband of his responsibility. It is also essentially reduces the wife to an escort service. Please the customer, or no social benefits.
    4) You know why most churches split? Documentation, please.
    5) Mystique? Sorry, I don’t advocate ignoring facts in order to construct a sentimental lie around my life.
    6) This entire screed is Postmodernism 101. Gray deconstructs the text, recreating it in his image, invents his own facts, and then advocates participatory reality construction.

    I mean, there are some things post on SFL that are just goofy and stupid, but this is far, far beyond that. I have no problem calling this evil.

    1. This is exactly true. Bobby has deluded countless other fundies, and maybe even himself, into believing that he knows what he’s talking about. All based, of course, on the millions or billions of points he’s supposedly racked up on god’s “soul-o-meter”.

    1. I agree!

      My friend and I have learned a lot over the past year about the church my family just left. She and her family are still there. But the things we came up with are:

      1) They don’t want to know about ANYthing so that they can say “I didn’t know” when approached about it.

      2) When approached about a person acting ugly the answer is “well that’s just the way they are”. SERIOUSLY??? That makes my blood boil. That church has a LOT of “well that is just the way they are” type people that I want NOTHING to do with!

      Sticking one’s head up their own butt is the only way they can operate and live with themselves on a daily basis.

  48. Don’t look at the man behind the curtain. . .

    Keep the mystique alive!

    The only one who benefits from this is the man behind the curtain. This was a very dysfunctional and self-serving post by fake doctor Bob Gray.

  49. This is definitely something Gray has taught before. I remember in James Spurgeon’s “Tales from the Temple,” (later published as “The Texas Baptist Crucible” I believe) that in the short amount of time he spent in the “master’s” program of Longview Baptist Temple, one of the special sessions Gray held for the master’s students was on the topic of why a pastor should remain aloof from his flock, both so they wouldn’t see his faults, and so that he wouldn’t accidentally get too close and have his heart broken.

    2. Hmm… At PCC, the student teachers were told never to let the students or families get close to them, close enough to see them as real human beings. The example was held up of the teacher whose husband died, and she was back at school the next school day teaching as if nothing had happened.

      That’s good training right there! We sure wouldn’t want to let our students or our families know anything about us. If we do, they may come to us for help, for advice, or for comfort when they are struggling. If we do, they may realize that they are not alone in their trials. And then we’d blow the whole gospel, which is that Jesus came to be admired and held aloof from people — in perfectly decorated houses with yards untouched by children’s toys.

  50. From the Amazon page for Bob Gray’s book on Jack Hyles:

    A book that never should have been written
    By Jerry D. Kaifetz, Ph.D. on October 9, 2013

    This is the tragic and misguided attempt of one of the most arrogant and pompous men to ever fill a pulpit to support and venerate one of the most toxic, narcissistic, and immoral church men of the 20th century. If you want the true story about Jack Hyles, listen to it from the lips of his own daughter, Linda Hyles Murphrey in her TED Video. She grew up in the Hyles home and tells of the sham of Hyles’ marriage, his affair with his secretary, and the degenerate serial adulterer he raised for a son. I knew Jack Hyles well, graduated from Hyles-Anderson College as well as Hyles-Anderson Seminary, taught in Pastor’s School, and have numbers of letters attesting to our close relationship. That ended in 1990 when I read “Fundamental Seduction” by Attorney Voyle Glover. I have never in my life known anyone personally who was so far from the public image of himself that he and his sycophants carefully crafted over the years. I have searched and searched for years and not found one Jack Hyles personal convert. He did not do what he demanded of others. He was a disgrace to the ministry, to the cause of Christ, and you surely never, ever needed a Bible to follow any of his sermons, a fact admitted to even by John R. Rice. For Gray (if he is in fact even the real author) to lift up a moral degenerate like Jack Hyles only speaks to the depravity of this man’s soul. The trail of ruined lives and innocent victims of First Baptist Church of Hammond and the blood that cries out from the ground is legend. Jerry D. Kaifetz, Ph.D., Author of “Profaned Pulpit — The Jack Schaap Story.”

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