236 thoughts on “Kenny Baldwin Tells a War Story”

    1. “No matter how much he goes to church… he’ll never get his leg back!”

      Guess IFBs don’t believe in the resurrection of the body…

  3. When does someone’s battle with their thought life ever include the awful things they think & say about other denominations, or their thoughts on war, or their thoughts on the permissibility of child abuse? IDK why thoughts about sex are somehow worse than than those thoughts?

  4. Haven’t watched it but we just had a visiting missionary this past Sunday from Latin America tell a similar story about a hardhearted wayward girl whose feet were cut off in a car accident and that’s what brought her back to church and God.

    1. Oh wow, that was frightening similar except our illustration was used to guilt people into praying for contrite hearts that fully seek God. I guess so that we never go off the rails that bad and get our feet severed and end up as a sermon illustration. They should let people tell their own stories, really. It’s sick to sensationalize the pain of others for manipulation especially when you don’t actually know causality. Maybe they think because Paul did with Ananias and Sapphira that they can just draw conclusions.

      1. Then there’s the whole ‘The shepherd breaks the sheep’s legs so it doesn’t wander’ thing.

        2. Damn, I just did a google search and realized the above is nowhere to be found in scripture. I could have sworn Jesus said it. Yikes.

        4. Nope, not in the Bible.
          In the Lost Sheep parable, the Shepherd goes looking for the sheep, finds it, and brings it back, but he doesn’t mutilate the sheep.

        5. Sadly, you’ve been punked by an IFB preacher on this one. It’s not only not Scripture, it’s not even common shepherding practice.

        6. It’s from a passage in Habakkuk that declares of God, I think “He has wounded and He will bind us up”

        7. Actually, GuiltRidden, the earliest reference to “breaking the lamb’s leg” that anyone has ever been able to find is in a sermon by Branham. That story is nowhere in the Bible and there is no evidence that any professional shepherd (as opposed to hobbyists who “sit under” jerk preachers) ever did such a foolish, wasteful, cruel thing. But it is certainly typical of Branham.

          The closest I can find to your quote is Hosea 6:1, in which the people, after Hosea relays a dire warning from God about the need to stop their wrongdoing, respond that all they have to do is “acknowledge” the Lord and everything will be okay. The Lord responds that while idolatry and syncretism certainly make Him angry, it’s the murder, theft, political infighting that destroys orderly succession, and general lawlessness that go along with the apostasy that are going to bring down Israel and Judah.

        8. I find nothing at all in Habukuk about breaking a sheep’s leg.

          The only thing in the book even vaguely related to sheep or shepherding is 3:17-18: “Though the fig tree does not blossom, and no fruit is on the vines, though the produce of the olive fails, and the fields yield no food; though the flock is cut off from the fold, and there is no herd in the stalls, yet I will rejoice in the Lord; I will exult in the God of my salvation.”

          This is a description of famine conditions, not advice about how to keep sheep from straying.

        9. Besides, when would it ever be a good idea to break your sheep’s legs? The sheep would starve from not being able to walk to grass, and you’d have an emaciated, worthless, dead sheep on your hands.

        10. I was wrong when I guessed Habakkuk; I was thinking of Hosea 6:1, which says, in part:

          …He hath torn, and He will heal us; He hath smitten, and he will bind us up

          I agree that there is nothing here about breaking the legs of a sheep; I just have heard preaching from this passage that either (a) it did refer to the practice of breaking a sheep’s legs to keep it from straying or (b) it may have referred to this.

          What terrifies me is when a pastor thinks that as the shepherd of the congregation, it is his job to to the breaking of legs…

        11. @GuiltRidden: A sterling (sic!) example both of ignoring context in favor of breaking out single verses as if the versification system had some kind of mystic meaning, and of saying “Sola Scriptura” but meaning “Sola Cultus Ecclesiae Meae.”

          Also of heaping misery and fear on the least of these, which seems to be a plank in the fundamentalist platform!

        12. Big Gary, the sheep with the broken leg wouldn’t starve because the shepherd would hold it close to himself, carry it with him, feed it and care for it until it was healed and could move on its own. Thereafter, it wouldn’t stray or disobey anymore but would trust the shepherd and stay close.

          That’s the way the story went from how I remember it.

        13. PW, that might be possible if you had only one sheep, but what if, like the shepherd in the parable, you had a hundred (or more) sheep? You can’t carry a lot of sheep around with you everywhere, and you can’t leave crippled sheep in the field, or they will be eaten by predators (since they can’t run away). The whole metaphor was clearly invented by someone who had never tended livestock.

        14. PW, from what I understand, sheep physiology is similar to that of horses, in that they are ungulates. Hoofed creatures tend to have poor blood circulation in their legs and must maintain equal weight on all legs to maintain proper circulation and avoid debilitating problems like laminitis.

          Not to mention, sheep are naturally skittish and wouldn’t again trust anyone who intentionally hurt them. AND ewes’ fertility is negatively affected by stress.

          It’s just an all-around bad idea.

        15. I agree with you, guys.

          I was just explaining how I’d heard the story: it wasn’t just a “obey me or I’ll break your legs mafia-style”. However, I agree that it really isn’t feasible or realistic. And, yeah, I can’t see why a sheep would trust someone who broke its leg, no matter how tenderly he carried it around afterwards.

        16. In addition to all the aforementioned, there were no antibiotics until recent times, so any injury as serious as a broken leg was highly likely to become infected, often fatally.

        17. The only way “breaking the lamb’s leg” even works is as an observation by Branham on the way that children, and some adults, can be kicked in the teeth again and again and still cling to the abuser, perhaps even more closely–and if the abuser claims that they were only cruel because the victim had to learn a lesson, the victim won’t argue.

          Of course, that’s evil. But we are talking about the likes of Branham.

  5. Nothing like telling a story about a young man getting burnt all over his body and becoming an amputee to get kids to surrender to Gid.

    See what happens when you run from The Call™ to Bible Kawledge and The Call™ to pastor!

    👿

    Romans 2:4 “…not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?”

  7. So is he preaching that if you rebel against God or fight God, God will cause a catastrophic accident that you will never fully recover from?

    I guess he never read the Prodigal Son in Luke 15….

    1. I think in the IFB version the prodigal is returning battered, bruised, deformed & probably barely alive. Just they way they like it.

    2. I don’t know the circumstances surrounding this story. I also don’t know the validity of it, but what I do know is that God gives many examples of consequences for sin, even in forgiveness. Moses striking the rock the second time, being sorry, and still not allowed to go into Canaan. Esau seeking with tears the return of his birthright but not getting it. Israel rebelling at Kadesh Barnea, saying sorry, and still not allowed to go into promise land. Even the prodigal, when he came back, lived on his brothers inheritance and not his own. God forgives of ALL and ANY sin, but that does not always remove the consequences.

      1. There is one striking difference: in Scripture we have a divine perspective about the motivations and reasons why things happen. Here we have no such insight.

        So I ask you, who sinned? This boy? His parents? Or was this a situation where time and chance happens to us all? Do you think this young man was more sinful than any of the rest of us? How do we know that this event in his life was actually an act of divine retribution and not for some other purpose?

        Short answer: we can’t. Once we start down the road of trying to give reasons why bad things happen to people then we put ourselves in the position of having to judge why ALL the bad things happen. We can’t possibly know. We shouldn’t make assumptions.

        And we definitely shouldn’t be using those situations for sensational pulpit fodder.

        1. “And we definitely shouldn’t be using those situations for sensational pulpit fodder.”

          And therein lies the point well-made!

        2. Darrell, I agree. I stated up front that I have no knowledge of this situation or to its validity. It’s not any ones place to say whether this was judgement or not. My comment was in regards to Leanne’s remark. I just wanted the truth stated that, yes, sometimes there are negative consequences to sin, even when we have been forgiven. I never said that this story was one of those situations. Even If I knew it to be true, I do not believe I would have assumed it was judgement. Not for me or anyone else to say. I’m sure thankful God has shown way more mercy to me than I deserve, because I know if He hadn’t I could have been an Illustration!

        3. Preachers joke about “ministerially speaking,” when dispensing whoppers from the pulpit. When done with the purest of motives, so as to make a sermonic point, they assume God looks the other way from the lie, and the good reverend doesn’t have to worry about Rev. 21:8 for straying from the truth. As a recovering pastor, I can attest to the fact that normal Bible reading and teaching is often not near as dramatic and spellbinding as the tactical insertion of a gory story or two.

      2. Yes there are consequences that we often feel from our sin–relationships that are not able to be mended due to infidelity, damage to our body due to abusing alcohol…..but there is a huge jump from those things to a car accident where a person is maimed for life being God’s punishment for sin.

        as for the prodigal living on his brother’s inheritance instead of his own….he would have done that any ways. In the ancient time of the Bible, one lived with the eldest male in the family–all your younger brothers included. The first born son would get a double inheritance because he was responsible for his own family as well as his siblings and their families. The younger siblings would contribute to the family needs but it ultimately fell on the oldest male.

        Jesus on the Cross cries forgive them they do not know what they do. And Paul declares that mercy triumphs over judgment. And it is God’s mercy that leads us to repentance. So the picture this gentleman is painting of God does not match up with the picture Scripture paints and the trajectory of the Story of God. God seems to be on a mission of moving humanity from this shame based theology to a mercy based theology throughout the Scriptures. Its sad that the IFB chooses to go back to the shame based.

    3. Yes that’s exactly what he is saying.
      My Youth Pastor used to say all the time “If you are in sin, God will use pain and accidents to wake you up. In fact if you stub your toe you should probably stop and ask God if it’s because he is trying to show you a sin in your life”

      SAD that I brainwashed in this way…

      1. I guess when I stub my toe, God might be demonstrating that I’m a clumsy oaf. But that’s a tautology, isn’t it?

        1. Perhaps if you stub your toe twice

          OR

          You say more than once that because you stubbed your toe, it’s therefore the judgment of God!

          I know nothing. 😕

      2. It seems clear that God will discipline a wayward child – but He is perfect, and knows exactly what we need to get right; for some, it may be some extra goodness will lead to repentance over the erring ways; for some, it may be a very slight incident; for others, it may be something bad. But such things are, very private, between God and the individual; it is NOT MY PLACE to tell someone that their suffering is due to their sin; nor would I preach to people that God is just waiting to smite them if they get out of line… it will lead to an unhealthy fear of God (the wrong kind).

    2. We could start a section called Fundy Tropes. Kind of like TV Tropes but with more vengeance and she bears.

        1. I have noticed that when a fundy preacher dies tragically or gets a disease it is never the judgement of God. Instead the event gets smeared over with a thick coating of super spiritual.

        4. Ugh. For those unfamiliar with the case of (completely disqualified) pastor Matt Jarrell, I recommend you follow that link.

          Bassenco, you are right. They white-wash the sins of (completely disqualified) pastors while focusing on the sins of teens and other laity in order to manipulate them. How sick!

        5. Apathetic- Or it gets blamed on someone else.

          I know of a half-blind physically impaired preacher who died on the road in the darkest hours of the night. It was publicly considered entirely the other driver’s fault because she had a non-zero blood alcohol level, even though he couldn’t have avoided ANY roadway hazard, couldn’t have seen the ground before him with his eyesight on that road at that hour, and it was commonly whispered that they had met on top of the yellow line and had therefore both been out of their lanes.

          But nope, horrible drunk killed the noble preacher and not a word about how he’d been endangering people for years by not handing over the keys to car to the same son he handed the keys to the church to.

    4. We had a 17 year old in our community die on Tuesday. I went to my hubby’s Fundy-lite church with him on Sunday. (A deacon was preaching as the pastor was out of town.) During the altar call at the end, the deacon mentioned the boy, saying that he’s sure the kid thought he had several years ahead of him, was he saved, and how we could die unexpectedly like the kid did so if we’re not saved we need to be. That bothered me. What if some of the kid’s relatives or friends were in the service? How would they feel, having the kid used as a sermon illustration like that?

      1. At our church, a teenage girl passed away in a tragic accident. She was a paragon of virtue, and I am not being sarcastic. One of those angelic, radiant, girls to the core. So of course the entire church was devastated. However, the youth directors now for years consider (and have said so openly) her death story to be their “go-to” story for teen manipulation. And the poor girl’s parents and siblings have to hear her name brought up over and over and over as it is used as sermon illustration after sermon illustration to show how short life is, how unguaranteed of it we all are, and how you teens better give your life to God NOW. It’s revolting.

        I’d like to see how Jesus used emotional manipulation in His teachings…but I can’t. Right. He did not.

    6. And don’t forget to include the infamous story from Cracked Pot on the FFF where Jim Vineyard allegedly used this technique – with a convenient picture from the mortuary as a visual aid.

      http://www.fundamentalforums.org/hyles-anderson-college/jim-vineyard/40/

      “Cracked pot #4: JAV has a way with people

      JAV sure has a way with people

      Posted by Cracked pot on Nov-15-02 7:59am

      One of the more bizarre stories from the JAV file is the story from the early days in his tenure as pastor of Windsor Hills. Many may not know or remember that Windsor Hills was officially a SBC church when JAV was called as pastor. It was an independent acting church but was still constitutionally an SBC church.

      The church ran around 300 and was a very stable church. Many good and wonderful people attended and loved their church. One of the first major changes was get those britches off those hussy women. That became one of the major feats and drives of JAV early ministry there. Those pants had to go!

      There were some who resisted “giving up” their pants. More pressure was applied, the people endured more bellowing from the pulpit. Graphic descriptions where given from the pulpit about how a woman’s backside looked in pants. You would hear from the sacred desk comments like “when the Lord said let your light shine before men, He wasn’t talking about your tail lights”! It became a constant theme in nearly every sermon. JAV would rejoice as much when a women gave up her britches as he did when a lost sinner got saved.

      Naturally there was some who didn’t want to give up their pants. Some honestly thought that was their preacher’s preference and not the clear teaching of the Bible. The heat was turned up. The litmus test soon became that if you were a deacon your wife couldn’t wear pants. that same test was applied to Sunday School teachers, chior members etc.

      There was a deacon who was a pharmacists at a local hospital in town. He was a good, kind and caring man. He had older teens when JAV came to the church as pastor and their was some rebellion against the pants rule.

      The Smith family hung in their for months and even years but they were on the JAV black list. They were worthless people and had worthless kids because they wouldn’t bow to JAV intimidation. They finally left the church. They were good people, they had one of their daughters away at TTU in Chattanooga TN.

      One night their eldest son was in car wreck and was tragically killed. It was a very sad time for them and for many of their former friends who still attended WHBC. JAV has such a way with people that he sent Bob Ross over to the funeral home and he took some pictures of their son in the casket. Those pictures for the next few years became a visual aid to those who didn’t do what JAV said. He would keep the pictures in his desk drawer and when someone came to his office to leave the church he would toss them the picture to them and say “Is this what you want to happen to your child?”

      And you think that I am a cracked pot. JAV sure has a way with people!”

      1. Jim Vineyard belongs in a category all his own.
        He’s sort of the Idi Amin Dada of America (except that vineyard never got control of a country).

        1. There may be sinister motives her for the preacher’s insistence on shedding the pants: Given some of the sexual peccadillos we’ve heard about in recent years, perhaps the good reverend was really hoping the pants would come off in church! Maybe at the “altar” during the “invitation!” After all, we can’t have orthodoxy defined by faithful adherence to the Bible, now can we? In the IFB, it is blindly following the preacher, no matter what.

    7. From the frequency of the teen car crash stories, are we to conclude that God hates teens more than any other reprobate sinners?

  9. I am starting to understand fundy logic.

    Leaving fundy churches and schools will make you drive 80 miles per hour into a tree at two in the morning. Drugs and alcohol will also make you do this. So, fundyism is like a substance abuse problem?

    I am not sure I understood him correctly.

    1. In some states, including Texas, driving 80 mph at 2 in the morning could just be a kid driving 5 mph under the speed limit on his way home from work to his parents’ ranch located two hours outside of town.

    2. There’s a YouTube video where Schaap threatens to beat up kids who graduate from his school who question things.

      1. What a tough guy Schaap is used to be one of Schaap’s favorite sermon topics. Nowadays, I haven’t heard whether or not the other guys on Schaap’s cell block are as impressed with his toughness as Schaap himself always was.

  10. I don’t know about you all, but I miss the stories of rebellious people who anger God (or the pastor)getting hit by a bus. Maybe I am just old school.

    Now get off my lawn!

    3. @Scorpio,

      For the last few years you have been blaming the neighbor’s dog for what happens on your lawn every evening. It was really me all along!

      *runs away laughing maniacally*

  11. Definitely told in fundy fashion but I believe the overall facts are true, about the crash and the injuries, so that alone sets it apart from MOST of these types of fundy tales.

    1. Why do you believe the overall facts are true?? The whole story smacks of embellishment and fabrication.

      What an odd coincidence that he was going 80 mph and got burns on 80% of his body. Or maybe those super precise and oddly correlative details were just made up.

      And I doubt very seriously the “father burned the Bible” part. The only person I have ever seen burn a book was my own fundy father, who burned a book my aunt gave my sister for Christmas because it had dragons in it.

      This story has the same plot as all the other wayward teen stories, just different details. The arc ALWAYS goes: wayward teen does “bad” stuff, gets horrifically injured, returns immediately to church (anyone but me find that plot point highly suspect??), spends the rest of his life regretting the consequences of his “sin.”

      1. Never known anyone to actually burn a Bible, but I did know a fellow who beat his wife senseless with her childhood Bible. And not with verses, metaphorically, but black, blue, and unconscious.

        1. I once tossed a bible into my fireplace. But it was a Gideon Bible, not a Schofield. Maybe that is why I still have all my limps.

    2. He could just invite this “Chris” to church and let him speak for himself. “Chris” could write a book, become an evangelist, and tour the country, warning teens of dangers of alcohol, fast cars barbecuing the bible. (And isn’t god going to burn every bible in the world, when he touches the whole planet in his last biblical hissy hit)
      But most likely “Chris” is hiding out with Manti Te’o ex-girlfriend. Heard too many of these teen accidents growing up to believe this lie.

      There are plenty people more deserving of a fiery car crash then poor “Chris”.

  12. Wait, this guy is openly gossiping about a person who used to attend that church? From the pulpit? And thinks he is equipped to pastor a church?

    smh

    1. Tiarali, you obviously have forgotten the fundy rule about gossip:

      It’s only gossip when someone else is talking bad about us, NOT when we are talking bad about someone else.

  13. Thanks, Darrel, I needed a fix of nutty. Strengthens my resolve, and all that.

    Sounds a lot like some of the russian pentecostal preachers I’ve had the displeasure of hearing (not so much listening to).

    1. In one version of the Wayward Teen Myth that I once heard, the teen WANTED to weep but the burns had injured his tear ducts and he could no longer cry.

        3. I think the version I heard had to do with fireworks.

          (“Fireworks are legal in the State of Tennessee, but they are illegal at the Bill Rice Ranch.” Statement always made at the beginning of each camp week at the BRR since time immemorial. Supposed to be a huge laugh line. Sometimes it worked.)

  15. My all time favorite was the one about the African missionary who decided to the leave the field and return to the states. However, before departing, Gid got his attention in true fundy fashion. While boating on an African river, he was attacked by a hippo and nearly died! So you see, if you decide to leave the mission field and desert the heathens Gid called you to save, you will be attacked by a wild animal. Be sure and keep that in mind.

    1. Too bad he wasn’t captured and eaten by cannibals. Okay, that is rather cliched and offensive, but the image still lingers. 🙄 😛

    2. I’ve heard that exact same story before! Except the one I heard was that a crocodile was gonna get him, but he escaped at the cost of one of the nationals getting eaten which slowed down the croc coming after him. The missionary knew god had saved him, and so kept on missionarying.

    3. FWIW, hippos are very dangerous beasts when they want to be, though they generally don’t have personal agendas. 😕

    4. I head that one too. Except in the version that I heard, the missionary left the field because his wife was afraid of snakes. And instead of listening to GOD, he listened to his WIFE and returned to the states to be safe. From that point in the story, I heard two different versions of the ending from the SAME preacher on two different occasions.

      Version One: The missionary’s young son got bit by a snake here in the United States and died.

      Version Two: The missionary ran over his son in the driveway with his pick-up truck coming home from his secular job that God didn’t want him to have.

      Yep, same preacher, same story, two different sermons, two different endings.

      3. I heard that the first son was bitten by a snake, and the missionary ran over his second son in his haste to get the first son to the hospital.

      4. I’ve always held the view that “listening to your wife” was the same as “listening to God.”

    7. The version of the story that I’ve heard is that both the missionary and his wife were in the boat, and when the hippo turned it over, she was eaten by a crocodile. So obviously the missionary was properly chastened and stayed to preach to the natives about the wonderful and loving god that he served.

  17. I don’t mind Kenny Baldwin so much. I’ve heard him several times and he is probably one of the more popular speakers that actually preaches expositionally. He is dynamic and even entertaining. He’s even a genuinely caring individual and really has a heart for God. That being said…

    I do wonder why the thought life thing is put into this cause it certainly doesn’t fit.

    Like Darrell said above, in Scripture we can see a Divine perspective about why things happen. Here we don’t have the context. But us not knowing about the divine perspective doesn’t mean that there wasn’t one.

    God uses his goodness to get people to turn back to him, he also uses bad things. Maybe in this case, it was the latter.

      1. “The degree Doctor of Divinity was conferred upon him by Pensacola Christian College.”

        Ahh, another IFB pastor with an honorary degree from an unaccredited school who proudly uses the “Dr.” title as if he actually earned it. I’m bored with it.

        2. As I understand the definition of the word, yes. To confer is to grant or bestow so as to honor. Besides, so far as I can see, PCC doesn’t even offer a Doctor of Divinity program. If I were a betting man, I’d say the degree was given and not earned.

        3. For the last hundred years or so, the Doctor of Divinity has been a purely honorary degree. The standard seminary degree is a 90 hour Master of Divinity (M.Div.). A second, increasingly less common degree is a more purely academic Master of Theology (Th.M.). The doctoral degrees in seminary are typically the practical Doctor of Ministry (D.Min) or more academic Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.). Some schools also offer a Doctor of Education (Ed.D.) but that is usually for studies that aren’t in theology or ministry proper.

      2. From their staff page, they appear to be yet another fine fundy family business! 🙄

    2. Kenny Baldwin reminds me of the IFB version of “Token” from South Park.

      There are quite a few token “black” IFB preachers and ministries, many who frankly sit around and don’t do crap while they say they are reaching “black America.” I believe its just a way to have the white IFB churches throw some money their way to prove to themselves they are not racist.

      1. That’s the kind of arrangement where everybody wins.
        The white churches get to feel good about not being racist, the black preacher gets money and occasional guest-preaching opportunities, and (best of all) the larger black community gets spared additional harassment by IFB “soul-winners.”

        2. @Larry,
          That is an interesting page. Their doctrinal statement has quotes around two phrases. “Inspired Word of God” and “One God” are surrounded by quote marks. Weird.

        3. Speaking of quotation marks, I got a birthday card this year in which a friend wrote this:

          Happy birthday to “you”!

          Not sure who she thinks I’m impersonating! 😀

  18. Quick! Get into a fundy church and surrender. Fundy kids don’t get in car accidents. I sometimes honestly forget how evil this type of preaching is. Needed reminding.

  19. When good things happen to fundies, it’s God’s reward.
    When bad things happen to fundies, there’s sin in the camp, OR if the person is sufficiently ranking or a big ‘ol tither, then it’s Satan testing his faith.
    When bad things happen to back-slid fundies, it’s God getting their attention.
    When good things happen to non-fundies, it’s just a matter of time before God “gets his”.

    Is that about the gist of it? Because frankly this seems to be ascribing cause after the fact. You know, I’m 100% accurate in predicting what happened last year.

    1. @Stony, that’s probably true!

      It’s like when the church deep in debt is able to make their mortgage payment AND pay the MoG it’s God’s blessing; Then, when things aren’t looking so good it’s God’s people not supporting their MoG!

      No one ever seems to think that perhaps getting into such debt in the first place WASN’T God’s plan, and that maybe the MoG should get a job so that he too can know that “it’s more blessed to give that to receive.”

  20. Interesting how all the fundy nonsense about wives submitting to their husbands goes right out the window when the husband doesn’t want the wife and kids attending a fundy church.

  21. I always tell my Youth that God is not up there with a lightening bolt waiting to strike you every time you sin. However, continual, unrepentant disobedience will bring punishment for your sin. I remind then remind them that if they repent now, no matter how long they have been “running”, God will forgive them. Jesus already paid for those sins on the cross, which is what we call “grace”.
    I do believe God punishes even His children when they are unrepentant in a particular sin, but I believe someone who is living completely in rebellion probably isn’t in that category.

    1. Punishment: a : suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution; b : a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure; c : severe, rough, or disastrous treatment

      If you mean the 2nd definition, I can agree. If you are referring to God deliberately inflicting suffering or rough treatment on His children, I adamantly disagree. If God were to intentionally cause injury to those who are weaker, that would make Him a bully.

      Of course, most IFB do consider God to be a bully, which is why there is so much abuse within the movement.

      1. “Of course, most IFB do consider God to be a bully …”

        Which is further evidence of people’s tendency to see God in their own image.

      2. Let’s use an example. The Prodigal son. He, according to the Bible, “lived riotously”. We can assume any number of things from what that implies. God’s punishment was not allowing him to be successful in his sin, and he wound up at the most reprehensible job, as a Jew would have thought. Only when he came back home, repenting from that lifestyle, did God allow him to be successful.

        That is what I explain to my youth group. God will punish consistent sin in a perfect way that will get your attention. It may be blocking opportunities, as with the Prodigal, it may be something completely different, but with His children He will know how to get their attention, because He is God.

        God is no bully. However, I would venture to say that Hell is a place of suffering, and when we say that God would never cause disastrous treatment, we run the risk of minimizing Hell. I get what you were saying, but we must remember why Christ died, and that was to keep people from Hell. I would also venture to say if someone needs a butt-kicking to keep them from Hell, God would do it (Matthew 5:30)

    2. “I do believe God punishes even His children when they are unrepentant in a particular sin” – But there are profound theological problems with that perspective, most notably of which is that either Christ’s sacrificial atonement took the punishment for our sins completely…or not. I think you might be better served by saying that God disciplines his children (a biblical statement, which means something very different from “punish”).

  22. Daryl wrote “Yes, there are African-American preachers in the IFB too.”

    What old time IFB’ers here remember how James Earls was the token black preacher in the Sword of the Lord conferences and paper back in the 70’s & 80’s? http://www.jamesearls.com/page/slavery.php

    Or those of you from Hyles-Anderson in the 80’s may remember Stan Harris. He was the one who always shouted the loudest and longest (and usually at the wrong time.)

    I have not kept up with Stan, but I believe he is the same guy as the “Dr. Breakthrough” shown here.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5uS-MK_2eI
    http://drbreakthrough.com/

    1. Ah, yes, the Health and Wealth religion. What a powerful hold it has on people!

      Changing his name to “Dr. Breakthrough” is kind of jazzy, though. I’ll give him props for marketing.

      1. The startling way his 3-D image materializes and starts shouting at you when you go to “Dr. Breakthrough’s” web site is also, well, interesting.

        1. Yeah, his Rimmer-esque hologram has no feet. Maybe they were sliced off in an accident when he was a wayward teen??

        6. They say the Devil never lets you see his feet, because he can disguise everything except the feet (according to folklore). The feet are always (in different versions) either cloven hooves or man-sized chicken feet, or sometimes one of each (left leg ending in a chicken foot and the right one a cloven hoof, or vice versa).

        7. The way that hologram movie pops out of the page does make you wonder if Obi-Wan Kenobi ever came to Princess Breakthrough’s aid. 😐

        9. From Big Gary: “They say the Devil never lets you see his feet, because he can disguise everything except the feet (according to folklore). The feet are always (in different versions) either cloven hooves or man-sized chicken feet, or sometimes one of each (left leg ending in a chicken foot and the right one a cloven hoof, or vice versa).”

          Reminds me of a great joke I heard a few years ago:

          Q.: How can you tell if your boyfriend is the Antichrist?
          A.: After a long walk with you, he sits down, takes off his shoes and says, “Oh, man, my cloven hoofs are killing me!” :mrgreen:

      2. “At the age of six, Stan was beaten, tarred and feathered by a teenage gang.”

        Tarred and feathered? For realsies? Or is that a euphemism for something else?

        3. Wow, Big Red, that was interesting.
          Not the testimony, but the “suggested” videos that came up at the end of that clip. I had no idea there was a whole genre of videos featuring people being tarred and feathered for entertainment. There’s no accounting for taste.

        4. So this beating occurred in front of a roofing supply company and across the street from a feather pillow manufacturer?

          I can’t figure any other way those materials would’ve been handy. Unless it was premeditated & the teens had raided their parents’ garages for the tar & swiped feather pillows, and wandered the neighborhoods thusly armed.

    2. The token black IFB’ers tick me off. Most of them say they are reaching the black communities, when all they are doing is sucking up speaking fees and love offerings and mission dollars from the majority white congregations, so they can “reach” the communities that white people want no part of.

      “Lookee here at our missions wall, we aren’t racist.” But if our neighborhood turns into a black community, we will sell our church and move elsewhere to a nice white area.

      1. Racism and bigotry is prevalent in the IFB/Fundy realm. You’ll hear it surface in subtle fashion by use of the word “colored.” It’s done in the same way people illustrate they’re not racists by noting, “I have colored friends.” Racism is defined by highlighting or drawing attention to someone’s ethnic background. It’s not enough to refer to another preacher; he is described as “a colored preacher.” These guys are still hung up on the Mark of Cain stuff from Genesis. Apparently, the fundy Bible doesn’t go beyond the Book of Genesis.

        2. Plus once color televisions were and invented, and rock n roll music of the Beatles, IFB’s claim that’s when the world ended.

        3. My recently former-fundy MoG said that Hispanics are like the Cretans, who are always liars, slow bellies (EVIL GLUTTONS)…blah, blah blah…so on and so forth. Titus 1:12-13.

          Hence, no Latino ministries in a community that is 33% hispanic.

    4. I’m VERY vaguely familiar with the name of James Earls. At one time he hosted a children’s show in the Hampton Roads region on the area NBC affiliate (WAVY-TV 10) for close to 20 years until leaving the area around 1988. I know he sometimes used one of those rather creepy puppets called “Cef” (that’s not George interfering, that’s how he spelled it).

      As for the book title, judging from the description on the SOTL site, it sounds more like a general book on being a servant with a “shocking” title (think the recent book “Slave” by John MacArthur). Of course, chances are I’d need quite a few grains of salt to take the SOTL description.

      Anyone else all that familiar with him?

  23. The fundy gid seems to take great pleasure in using auto accidents as a way of punishing prodigal children. My advice to any current prodigals is to spend all your waking hours in a within-walking-distance strip club…that way you will be immune from the auto accident punishment. And because the fundy gid is so impotent, you’ll probably avoid retribution altogether.

      1. Reminds me of this guy, Buster Wilson, who used to come to our church as a “helps missionary.” He did free construction work on the church and on the pastor’s house (which the church paid for and, when it was discovered, let to a huge church split). He would tell these long elaborate stories about how he almost died in various ways but God would save him to let him keep serving God. One particular story was about a time that a police officer (Mr. Wilson was a former cop) cut the brake lines on his truck in an attempt to murder him, but God protected him and he was okay.

      2. BG, I think that only people who are right with gid get their brakes checked or cars inspected. Now that I think of it, I remember attending FBCH’s Youth Conference in the early 80s (which was my visit to Indiana) and being shocked at the condition of most of the cars in-and-around Hammond…I later learned that Indiana didn’t have a state inspection, so if it ran, you could drive it. I think that explains many of the horrific auto accidents in the IFB.

  24. From his church’s web site:

    He attended the Fairfax Baptist Temple Academy from kindergarten through twelfth grade. Graduating with the highest honors awarded by the school, his awards reflected unusual achievement in spiritual leadership, academics and music.

    How does one achieve something or other in “spiritual leadership”? Or, is that what makes it unusual? How does one quantify excellence in spiritual leadership? If you give awards for it, doesn’t it kind of evaporate?

    He got early experience in preaching by participating in the American Association of Christian Schools (AACS) competition at the age of nine. He won first place in that competition and went on to win first place each consecutive year through the twelfth grade. These nineteen first place awards included one occasion at the National Preaching Festival and three consecutive occasions at the AACS National Competition in Greenville, South Carolina. After winning in his final high school entry at AACS Nationals, he was asked to preach during the awards ceremony to a crowd of 5,000.

    Ah. He’s an award-winning preacher, then. Is it preaching, or is it showmanship and/or giving a religious speech? Not a fan of preaching contests; if we must have them, then the kid who “wins” should be imprsioned and/or taken out and beaten bloody – or put to death – as that’s the prize we see frequently awarded in the book of Acts. This guy shares this part of his bio as lending credibility to his trade? “Preaching” to win. What a crock.

    2. AACS is American Association of Christian Schools. So his “awards” are from high school. The crowd of 5,000 is the students from all the schools who are competing in the various categories of the talent show- I mean, academic competition. 🙄

      I find it pretty sad that a grown man is listing his high school achievements as part of his credentials. I scored pretty highly at AACS competitions, too, but that means diddly-squat at this point in time. Actually, it meant nothing then…if only I’d known.

      1. It’s usually the preacher. One sign of a great preacher is the ability to write in the third person about oneself.

    4. “the kid who “wins” should be imprsioned and/or taken out and beaten bloody – or put to death – as that’s the prize we see frequently awarded in the book of Acts.”
      Amen…

    5. I always found preaching contests to be in extremely poor taste. I can’t see the Jesus Christ of the Bible approving of such.

  25. Does “war story” mean that it is a made up story? That’s the impression I got after watching the “David Grice tells a war story” video.

    1. I kind of liken the “war story” to the proverbial “fish story;” the more the story is told, the bigger the fish gets.

      1. The irony at work with these “war stories” intrigues me. Have you ever noticed that the “hard times” endured by the preacher in his younger years gets harder and more strenuous as the years go by? The irony is that apparently that is what entitles the Nicolaitan preacher to live a life of ease now, in which the hard times are only relived in the telling of them, and not in the repeating of them.

    2. The “war stories” here on SFL are always told by preachers who claim they are true, and for most of them the preacher claims to have been personally involved, or at least to have witnessed the events personally.

      However, there are various reasons to suspect the stories’ veracity, not least of which is the fact that the same stories have been told by hundreds, nay, thousands of preachers for generations.
      The logical impossibility or improbability of many of the stories is another feature.

      Another thing all the war stories have in common is that they reveal more about the preacher telling them than about God, the Bible, or the people who are the ostensible subjects of the stories.

  26. Do you think when these preachers are called to the hospital for things like this they get a little excited and think “Ooooh, I can work this into future sermons. That’ll preach!!!!” Disgusting.

    2. This reminds me of something I just read, in Leo Rosten’s “The Joys of Yiddish” (1968):

      The famous Dubner maggid, a gaon [a gaon is a genius or a very learned person], was asked by an admiring student: “How is it that you always have the perfect parable for the topic under discussion?”

      The gaon smiled. “I’ll answer you with a parable.” And he told the following story:

      “A lieutenant of the Tsar’s cavalry, riding through a small shtetl, drew his horse up in astonishment, for on the side of a barn he saw a hundred chalked circles– and in the center of each was a bullet hole! The lieutenant excitedly stopped the first passerby, crying, ‘Who is the astonishing marksman in this place? Look at all those bull’s-eyes!’

      “The passerby sighed. ‘That’s Shepsel, the shoemaker’s son, who is a little peculiar.’

      “‘I don’t care what he is,’ said the lieutenant. ‘Any man who can shoot that well–‘

      “‘Ah,’ the pedestrian said, ‘you don’t understand. You see, first Shepsel shoots– then he draws the circle.'”

      The gaon smiled. “That’s the way it is with me. I don’t search for a parable to fit the subject. I introduce the subject for which I have a perfect parable.”

  27. Is this guy the token minority among IFB’s?? Lenny Baldwin preaches for other denominations as well.

  28. Breakin’ rocks in the hot sun
    I fought the law and the law won (twice)
    I needed money ’cause I had none
    I fought the law and the law won (twice)
    -Clash

  29. When I was about 10 my IFB mom told me that the reason our beloved collie dog was run over and brutally killed by a car was because of her sin. It was a warning to me not to sin. Gosh I love fundamentalism.

    2. I can top that. When my mom was pregnant with her seventh child, she called me into her room one afternoon and tearfully told me that God had told her that she was going to lose her baby. I was FREAKED OUT because I thought my mom was trying to tell me in her own twisted way that she was thinking of hurting herself or the baby.

      My little brother is now a healthy 12 year old boy, thank goodness. But it was no fun growing up with a mother who frequently mixed her severe post-partum depression with her twisted fundy beliefs.

      (Also, years later, I found out that the reason why my mother thought that she was going to lose the baby was because she assumed it was going to be her last pregnancy and she had aborted her first pregnancy when she and my father first started dating in college. So, she thought God would punish her by killing off another of her babies.)

      2. My mother died when i was 4, leaving my dad with three kids under four with the youngest being only 6 months old. I remember it being implied when talking about her with a family member when I was about ten that the reason that she died might have been that she had had a huge fight with her dad about marrying my dad and they never really reconciled. I accepted it as fact back then, but now I think who in there right mind would tell a child that God allowed their mom to die as her punishment? The more I think about the more disgusted it makes me, and I heard it more that once from different family members. Nothing like teaching a kid that God is so vengeful that He would allow your mom to die to punish her. 😥

        I have been teaching my kids that God blesses and uses people even when they are in the middle of doing stupid stuff. We have been learning about Abraham and Sarah in Egypt and with Abimelech. Even though Abraham was not exactly being an upstanding citizen God used both situations to richly bless Abraham. Kind of destroys that whole philosophy of God will strike you down if you make one tiny mistake.

    3. What kind of sin was the collie supposed to have committed that merited getting run over by a car? What did it do that was worse than what other dogs do? 😯

    1. I guess that would make Kenny Baldwin “Coeba Commander.” Because knowing fundamentalism is half the battle.

      Go Joe!!

  31. “I surrender. I surrender.”

    Who was it that said “You don’t need to be born-again. You need to grow the f*&^ up.”

  32. I don’t know what the poor collie did, but I grew up thinking that if I screwed up our dog would get run over.

  33. I was in a car accident yesterday, and then of course I had to wonder if I forgot to confess one my sins before communion on Sunday. And I had been doing so well in overcoming my fear of communion….

    1. Sorry to hear about the accident. I hope everyone is OK.

      It is definitely an almost-daily spiritual battle to defeat those thoughts that assume God is “out to get you” and instead to affirm that God is your loving Father who poured out His wrath on sin on His Son Jesus Christ and who offers us love and grace and has our best in mind for us.

  34. All the comments about tragedies being God’s punishment on sin made me think of this:

    When that tragic church bus accident happened in Indianapolis, a fundy I know (who had heard Phelps preach in NH), said something about wondering whether he wished he hadn’t left New Hampshire.

    That just bugged me so bad. Maybe they didn’t mean it to come across as so judgmental, unfair, and unreasonable, but it was. It’s like anytime you do ANYTHING someone else disagrees with, for the rest of your life if anything bad happens, to those people it’s because of that ONE THING you did.

    Of course, if a loved one dies in a plane crash, you’d wish they weren’t on that plane, but it didn’t crash BECAUSE they were on the plane.

    I don’t think I’m writing this clearly, but when you hear comments like this a lot, you end up becoming very fearful of doing anything. I know personally that from now on for the rest of my life, if anything bad happens to me or my family, to some people it will be BECAUSE I (choose one) go to a non-Baptist church, listen to CCM, left fundamentalism, read the NIV, etc.

    I wish I could write with more clarity about how wrong and hurtful I think such sayings are.

    1. @PW: What you wrote was exceedingly clear. Frankly, after 20 years of this stuff, I left fundamentalism and said to myself “If that’s what God is like, I want nothing to do with him.” I still say that. I just don’t think that’s what God is like. “God” or the threat of his lightning bolt, is used by preachers and even some parents to manipulate and control. It’s cynical, it’s morally debased.

    2. Yes, wrongly and arrogantly affixing blame for these “acts of God” can lead to paralysis of the will for the listeners. And worse things. This is nothing new: consider the Gospel story of the man born blind. Jesus’s own disciples asked Him whose was the blame for the blindness. Christ’s astonishing answer should have put paid to all this arrogance, but we love to be the one calling the shots.

  35. I always find it sad when I see african american’s in IFB churches. Especially ones who will follow the teachings of Ruckman, when he has said some horrible things against many black folks.

    1. Greg Mutsch (enemy of Jack Hyles and Jim Vineyard) also said some off color comments about African-Americans. He referred to them as “Colord Folks”.

    2. Racism is never good, but I don’t know if Ruckman is so much racist as he is just plain insane. After all, he may have things against “colored folks” but that includes his beliefs that there are blue aliens with blue blood (those must be the aristocratic aliens), black aliens with green blood, and gray aliens with clear blood. He also believes that the CIA implants chips in the brains of African Americans and others.

      2. Ruckman and Mutsch were also the ones who told everyone about “Eye Babies” and how you can get a girl “Spiritually Pregnant” by making eye contact. And people say Jack Hyles wasn’t a cult leader?? Go see PCC. Hyles may have been a verbal dictator but I can see why he personally didn’t like PCC.

        1. “Spiritually pregnant”? 😯 Whatever can that mean?

          Did Ruckman not know how babies are made?

          Never mind, just file this under “stark raving mad.”

        2. Ruckman and Mutsch were the ones who started the “Eye Babies” theory at PCC. I have no idea what they tried to get out of that. Maybe if they both wore dark sunglasses like Hyles did they wouldn’t have to worry about it.

  36. This guy does remind me of Token from South Park. On FBC YouTube page (before Schaap went to the Hoosegow) Schaap said Baldwin “Is my brother from another mother”. I guess Schaap was trying to try and sound cool with pop culture slang.

    Baldwin has actually preached at other churches/denominations outside of IFB’s. Baldwin even spoke at Jentzen Franklyn (TBN Prosperity Preacher) Youth Conference a few years back and clips were shown on TBN and the PTL Club.

    Usually IFB’s don’t take in minority preachers but they do advocate minority singers

    1. “Usually IFB’s don’t take in minority preachers but they do advocate minority singers.”

      Because God gave them “natural rhythm,” hay-men? 🙄

      Oh, wait, rhythm is evil, isn’t it? Oh dear, I’m probably going to hell just for mentioning it …

      1. Well there is a guy out at Jack Trieber’s church who IFB’s will pay $$ to see live in concert and buy his records. He’s originally from the Philippines but Trieber came to his home in 1985 and got his family saved. The young man came to America to attend Trieber’s college. He became world famous (in IFB circles) for his singing and today is the Head of the Music department at Jack Trieber’s college.

    2. ‘Schaap said Baldwin “Is my brother from another mother”.’

      Wow, Jack, that’s really hip lingo, circa 1960 or so. You jive cat, you.

      1. Schaap even tried to wear cool 80’s circa sunglasses and he looked more like the white version of Ray Charles. The only reason for Schaap wearing sunglasses was because Jack Hyles would always wear dark sunglasses in the pulpit starting in the late 80’s. Very Jim Jones like if you ask me.

        1. Was it sunglasses or polarized glasses that turned dark from the spotlight. Because the spotlight on ol Jack was the ministry non-negotiable.

        2. Watch the video of Jack Hyles badmouthing PCC and you’ll see him wearing dark sunglasses as are his cronies in the background. There are other videos of Hyles where he is wearing sunglasses and spewing his venom.

        3. Jack Schaap’s tinted glasses were the exact style sported by countless elderly mafiosi in the 1980s and 90s. Whenever a Don or a Capo showed up in the news for some reason, he’d have on those signature shades.

        4. Never really saw Schaap wear shades that often but Hyles wore the 24/7 and he looked like a recovering alcoholic or a poor man’s version of Ray Charles.

        5. Dang, I wrote “Schaap” when I meant to write “Hyles.”
          My comments were about Hyles’ glasses, not Schaap’s. 😳

        6. It has occurred to me that some drugs, such as cocaine and amphetamines, cause excessive sensitivity to light.

        7. Maybe Hyles wore the dark sunglasses because he didn’t want to see a girl in pants/shorts :mrgreen:

          Another idea was that Hyles thought he looked even more superior by wearing sunglasses in the pulpit (Jim Jones and Paul Crouch).

  37. Kenny says how terribly sinful the kid in the story was, yet the only “sins” he can actually cite are his failure to attend the IFB church and Christian school. What about those who are living in real sin (like the ones actually mentioned in the Bible), but don’t ever get into a terrible car accident or other horribly disfiguring event?

    One of the real problems with this type of theology is the way it so spectacularly back-fires. So what happens if Kenny, or any other preacher, manages to scare these kids into “not opposing God” by faithfully attending IFB churches, only going to IFB schools, and blindly following IFB doctrine, but something like that horror story happens to them anyway? Preachers like him simply aren’t prepared to help, and not just judge, those same kids/adults who then lose their faith as a result of this crap theology. It doesn’t work in the real world.

    1. If God likes to smite a sinner with some terrible accident or disease, I can’t figure out why certain well-known people (supply your own names here) are still alive and healthy.

  38. I have heard a couple great sermons by Kenny Baldwin, I was at ACE’s International Student Convention (not sure if they have been put on here before) and i heard a great message, but then i hear things like this, and it shows me to keep praying, and keep being the light Christ called us to be, I couldn’t even listen to the whole two minutes because i knew where he was going, and i just can’t listen to it anymore, when i stopped being a fundy, best day of my life.

  39. What bugs me the most about guys like him, is they actually feed into the racist mentality of many IFB churches. I heard him once, and he began his sermon with self deprecating humor about being black.

    That actually burns me up. If you actually believe every black person out there should be an independent fundamental Baptist, then why do you make fun of your skin color to a room full of white people who are still hung up on it? That’s not a way to integrate the denomination.

    I wonder if guys like him like keeping the number of black IFB’s small. That way they can continue to rake in the cash to their ministries that are “reaching out” to the black community instead of actually doing what they ought to do and telling the churches they need to stop being bigots and reach out to them themselves.

  40. I’ve had the displeasure of sitting in on one of Kenny Baldwins sermons when I was 16. He even called me out for checking out a girl in the sermon. Anyway I had the respect to continue to listen to the rest of the sermon. I tried to talk to him later and say it was a good sermon but he wouldn’t even look at me. His daddy should have shot him down his mommas throat.

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