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Hate your job? Peruse through the Independent Baptist Classified Ads and you’ll suddenly realize that no matter what you’re doing it could be much, much worse.

For example you could have a job here using your “bible college” education to cut the grass and be a general flunky:

The church needs a man to come and back up the pastor in both the activities of the church as well as the keeping of the grounds. This is a nonpaying position but housing is available. This assistant should be a King James only, independent Baptist who is the husband of one wife with some Bible college education. A degree in Christian Ministries or Theology is preferred. If you feel that God would have you be the #2 man for our church, please send your resume to…

Peruse through and let me know which position made you thankful not to be working there today.

378 thoughts on “Employment”

  2. Why can’t the existing men of the church be the cheerleaders and groundskeepers? Why does the wife need some Bible kolidge edumakayshun?

    1. Stuff My Kids Like – deliberately misparsing ambiguous sentences like that. Makes dinner….interesting. Well played.

      1. Not to mention that “husband of one wife with a college education” seems to imply “your other wives don’t have to have any fancy book-learning as long as they’re obedient and fertile.”

  3. Wow! That is quite the high standard for a grounds keeper. Do people often go to the grounds keepers at Baptist churches seeking theological and biblical advice? And KJV only? God knows we don’t want him cutting the grass quoting scripture under his breath in the NIV.
    Just when I thought I saw it all in the fundamentalist realm, you surprise me. šŸ˜Æ

    1. I would assume that a church placing an add like that on a site like that don’t necessarily know the definition of grounds keeping, and think it means maintenance and will surprised you with toilet cleaning/fixing, & light maintenance responsibilities to mumble the KJV under your breath while doing.

    2. They’ve got pretty gol-durn high demands to meet before they’ll let you do their grunt labor for free.

      Also wanted: Someone with a PhD in molecular biology to serve lunch to the preschool (unpaid, of course), and someone with at least 10 years experience in aeronautics engineering to clean the building for the sheer pleasure of serving.

  4. INTERIM PASTOR SEEKING CHURCH:
    My name is [Bob] an (sic) I am the director of “Strengthening Those Things That Remain” ministry (no comma sic) a needs ministry to local Independent Baptist Churchs (sic). I have pastored for 33yrs (sic) and have been in the ministry for 44yrs. (sic) I have pastored 3 church’s (sic); (sic) administered Christian schools (!);(sic) taught in a Bible college (!);(sic) served on pastoral staff (sic) and am a certified chaplain. I am seeking to help church’s (sic) that are with out (sic) a pastor on a interim bases (sic).

    Words fail me. And him, apparently.

    2. Why don’t fundies use spellcheck? Maybe because it would want to correct too much of the KJV.

      1. I wonder if for some it’s because of a deep-seated arrogance that says, “No one can tell me what to do. I’m independent. I don’t care what you think.”

        Charity requires that we care about others. Thus we follow rules of grammar because it enhances understanding and facilitates communication. A lack of charity means you don’t really care if other people have a hard time reading what you wrote.

        I don’t think a lot of them have thought it through this much, but I do think the general attitude of proud self-focus can result in a carelessness about following conventional rules, even those about punctuation.

        1. My hubby told me the other day about a professor he had who hated grammar, because it was the rich man’s way to be superior to the poor man. I told him that times have changed and it’s just a way to communicate effectively and concisely. I don’t assume someone’s rich or poor based on grammar. I live in the south – if that were the case, I’d misjudge a whole lot of people. Also, I think it’s a sign of respect. I finally convinced him. šŸ˜®

  5. PASTOR’S LIBRARY FOR SALE:
    Down sizing large book collection.
    Interdependent Fundamental Baptist – 1611.
    Baptist / Church Books.
    About 250-300.
    Want to help build gym – so selling some books.
    Do not worry – kept a lot too.

    That’s a relief.

    2. There are three things that are very sad about this:

      (1) He seems to think that his 250-300 books are valuable enough that they will actually make a significant contribution to the gym fund.

      (2) Someone else will think the same thing and will actually pay top dollar for the books.

      (3) Even though the total amount raised will cover less than 1% of the cost of the gym, the church will be reminded forevermore of the sacrifice that their MOG made by selling his personal library to fund the gym. He’ll probably even get a plaque naming the gym after himself (that ironically will cost more than the value of his donation).

      1. Yeah, my reaction was “What kind of gym can you build for the price of 250 – 300 used books?”
        That is, unless most of them are illuminated medieval manuscripts or first editions printed personally by Gutenberg.

        Otherwise, the proceeds of that sale at most will fund a few gym towels.

        I used to work in a bookstore, and we constantly dealt with people who were convinced that their old books were extremely valuable (because they were old?). But it’s not worth what you say it is unless there is someone out there who will pay you that price for it.

        1. The owner of a Christian used bookstore just gave me $10 for a box of Oliver B. Greene books. He said there’s not much call for them. I was just happy to get $10!

        2. PW, it’s things like that that make me wonder about reviving book-burning, at least of the ones that no one would read even at gunpoint. šŸ˜ˆ

      1. Heh. I still have some of those.

        Nobody can read ’em anymore, because the syrup keeps all the pages stuck together.

        1. I had the joy of proofreading books at BJU Press–mostly of the “Peanut Butter Friends in a Chop Suey World” and “Sugar Creek Gang” variety.
          I always left work feeling like I had just downed a huge piece of birthday cake with 3 scoops of icecream and washed it all down with a glass of sticky-sweet lemonade.

        2. Please don’t tell me the Sugar Creek Gang books came out of BJU. We still have some in our house! Now I’m going to have to scour through all the books I read as a kid to see what’s in there…

        3. sugar creek gang was not from BJU as far as I know. Just an example of the general flavor of the books, because I’m having trouble remembering titles of the books I actually worked on (I think I’ve blocked them from my memory).

  6. Very first ad when I clicked through was a guy looking for a youth pastor job that he could “fisicially” support his family. He had to have been trying to spell fiscally, but should’ve been misspelling financially. I don’t think any job can help you physically support your family. I’m guessing that happens when you try to sound informed & educated on a Bible College “degree”.

    1. I groaned when I saw that. Followed by “not a novice.” To which I thought, he is a novice speller…then I groaned again.

      1. I suppose “fisicially” could also be an attempt to spell something related to Physician too, depending on your pronunciation of “fisicially” šŸ™‚

      1. Maybe demanding that your conditions of employment involve acres of push mower work, various plumbing & carpentry & roofing work would be enough to condition you to physically support your family? šŸ™‚

  7. Then there’s the one offering a “bi-vocational” assistant pastor position, whatever the heck that is. I especially like this line…

    “The candidate needs to be married and have some formal training. We would like a candidate whose wife can play the piano if possible. ”

    So, what are the odds that the wife won’t get one red cent for her piano-playing abilities?

      2. Got it now – you get the pleasure of working for the church for next to nothing AND trying to find a minimum-wage job elsewhere to support your quiver.

        1. Yes! Your “calling” is only going to be (at best) half your income if you find a minimum wage job for 15 hours a week somewhere. Anymore pay than that and your church salary will be 5% to 25% of your income.

        2. At least they are upfront about it. The fundy church I grew up in had a really great associate/youth pastor. He was fundy in doctrine, but not in how he treated people. Anyway, the church split twice thanks to the exploits of the senior pastor and there was no longer enough to pay the youth pastor. He actually OFFERED to get a job and just work for the church part time and the pastor told him “nope.” The pastor then fired the youth pastor and hired his son as “part-time interim youth pastor.”

        3. Ahh keep it in the family, because you can trust your family easier than regular church peons. I heard that from a MOG, not exactly like that but that was pretty much what he was waying.

          If you want a guaranteed job in fundie-land be the son of a preacher man or marry the daughter of a preacher man.

    2. And I would hazard a guess that the wife who plays piano would have had more education and training to acquire her skills than all the rest of them put together.

    3. I was wondering… what if the candidate plays the piano, but his wife doesn’t? Does that disqualify him?

    4. She won’t get a red cent. It’s implied when you hire a married couple, you get two for the half-price of one. I once saw an ad in the BBFI Tribune that went something like this: “Wanted, associate pastor with degree from an approved college. The successful candidate will serve as youth pastor, teach in the Christian school, visit, preach in the pastor’s absence, and be available for hospital calls. He will be an independent contractor, but will be subordinate to pastor. Parsonage will be available free of charge to offset salary.Wife will teach SS, play the piano, coordinate children’s ministries, and maintain ‘sign up’ sheets for various activities and duties. Both will be morally above reproach, hold exclusively to the KJV, and serve in a joint-capacity.”
      I know that new people just entering into the ministry are eager for such opporunities, but what is described is only a hint of the reality: indentured servitude. Makes me wonder just exactly what the “senior pastor” actually does! And all this while being treated with absolutely contempt by the “pastor emeritus,” held under, insulted, crapped on, and treated with extreme indifference while his family suffers financial deprivation. Seems to me that if the wife is expected to do anything, she should be compensated. The smart young minsiter will tell that pastor to keep his paltry sum, and go elsewhere for a job. I’ve been treated better in this old wicked, ungodly world than I have been in some churches!

      1. Iā€™ve been treated better in this old wicked, ungodly world than I have been in some churches!

        Well, the “wiked” and “ungodly” world did come up with equal pay for equal work, and minimum wage, and equal employment opportunity* – all of which religious institutions seem to have exclusions against.

        *not to mention human rights, democracy, universal suffrage and other such horrible, evil ideals.

      2. Another reason Bible college students are told to find a “help meat” before they become a pastor…They have to offer 2 for 1/2 value to land that first big asst pastor/grounds keeper/Christian school teacher/maintenance/visitation/Sunday School teaching gig.

    5. Formal training in what? Marriage?

      There are no words to express my frustration with such ambiguities.

    6. I suddenly realized why all the preacher boys at fundy U were constantly sniffing around all the music majors …

      1. Oh, yes. It was widely known that any piano-playing female had to beat off the preacher boys with a stick.

        1. I love playing the piano, and I do think the fact that I could play was an added draw when my husband was hired as youth/music pastor at one church, but when it comes to my husband, he has never, ever made me feel that piano playing was one of the things that attracted him to me. I was just hot. šŸ˜‰

      2. I knew a preacher boy who started dating his paino-playing wife when she was still in high school. When they met, he was 23, she was 17.

  8. Did you see the warning at the top of the page? “Warning: This is the internet with many pranksters and hackers.”

    Oh noes! Those internet haters are everywhere!

    1. Perceived persecution permeates.

      (Do I get any bonus points for alliteration?)

  9. “It seems that every church that I have pastored has been small, recently went through some type of trouble, going through some type of trouble, or couldn’t find a pastor because of their reputation or because they could not pay him enough.”

    Aaaannnndddd the common denominator would be …. ???

  11. I guess since I’m a woman, I don’t need a job. I know religious organizations are exempted from Equal Opportunity rules, but wow.

    1. Hey, don’t worry. It’s nothing personal. Quite a few of these churches don’t want to pay MEN, either.

    2. I think you should put your resume out there saying you are looking to be a lead pastor somewhere, and see what happens! šŸ™‚

        1. I’d love to ask your mom about her experiences. She & I can trade war stories!

  12. “Well established independent baptist church…the work is full time, though we can only pay a part time salary at this time.”

    The cognitive dissonance is echoing all the way down the hall.

  13. I am begging. Please please PLEASE tell me the ad example used in this post is a made-up ad for emphasis sake. Pleeeease.

    1. Apparently, these “ninos” speak English, except for the the word “children.”

        2. I’m sorry, sir, but I’m going to have to ask you to speak English like a good Christian. What did you expect, that a missionary to Mexico would learn Spanish? Please.

  17. You definitely missed the punchline to ad you excerpted. It’s this: “We would ask you to e-mail it but, Pastor … is 77 years old and doesn’t do computers. I am his former assistant and am posting this on his behalf.”

    Why “former”?

    1. Because even though he doesn’t “do” computers, he probably “does” his assistants!

    2. Yes, the “doesn’t do computers” part is what got me. Sounds like a dream job.

      1. Although, perhaps one should not throw stones. I have a middle aged co-worker who announced in a recent staff meeting that he “doesn’t do software.” He was met with a rather stunned silence.

      2. My wife works in a law office. An old paralegal there retired a couple of months ago without ever having learned how to use a computer. At all. Remember, this is 2013, and the guy has been working there since, I don’t know, 1931?

        When I heard about this, I said, “Isn’t that kind of like being a carpenter and refusing to use any of those newfangled ‘saws’ on the grounds that ‘In my day, we just gnawed the wood in two with our teeth’?”

        (He was apparently good at certain other aspects of his job, though.)

        1. I tried (but failed) to find the Boston Legal clip on YouTube where Denny Crane is asking an associate attorney how computers work and if she knows how to use a laptop. Priceless!

    3. ‘Why ā€œformerā€?’

      Hoooooo-eeee, if the ad itself doesn’t answer your question, nothing will. :mrgreen:

      1. I guess my thought is that if you are “former,” you wouldn’t agree to post the ad … unless you wanted someone else to go through what you went through.

  18. I saw two major red flags (I could list many more but for sake of time). Expository preaching was not listed or required in any of the pastoral ads. That is why fundy “preaching” lacks meat, clarity, and overall scholarship. Secondly, way to many awful run-on sentences. I’m no grammar expert, but come on.

  19. “The candidate needs to be married and have some formal training. We would like a candidate whose wife can play the piano if possible.” SIGH. SMH… šŸ™„ šŸ™„ šŸ™„

  20. who is the husband of one wife with some Bible college education

    What about the other wife? Does she need any type of education?

    1. I guess the other wife/wives need to birth the babies to populate the planet Kolob.

      1. AOW, I recommend that you read Uncle Wilver’s comment again. He wove several levels of snark into that short question. It was truly a work of art.

    3. He needs at least one wife with a degree from an accredited college, so she can earn enough to support them all while Mr. King James Only backs up the pastor and fixes the toilets.

        2. Y’know, “fixing” just about all of these Indy Fundy pastors might be just the thing.

          They would be much more laid-back, and they wouldn’t be able to put their own incompetent offspring into positions of power in their own churches anymore.

  21. 04/2013 – PASTOR SEEKING CHURCH:
    47 year old pastor/missionary with a Master of Divinity looking for a church/school ministry. Am a New Zealander currently living in USA…

    Nooooo!!!! My countrymen! Why? Why!!?

    “Was saved in New Zealand under one of the very first missionaries to go from the USA.”

    Huh? What, back in 1830? šŸ˜•

    1. Yup. IFB missionaries came to Australia, too šŸ™ My country is too beautiful to be tarnished by such.

    2. The first *real* missionary, not the first panty-waist “Church” of England “missionary.”

      I don’t think you can be too upset for the damage this guy will cause to your homeland’s reputation when you consider that New Zealand gave us Ray Comfort.

      1. “when you consider that New Zealand gave us Ray Comfort”

        Curses! You had to go drag that guy up from the pond slime didn’t you! šŸ˜‰

        Incidentally, when I was a young evangelical, we were all so proud of the kiwi guy “lecturing” in all the great universities of the USA, exposing the lies of Satan about evolution….

        Then, sometime later I moved from being a child to an adult, and released the guy was bunkum, and an embarrassment.

        1. New Zealand gave the world Neil Finn of Crowded House, one of the best song writers in the world!

  22. Thanks for those who explained what bi-vocational meant. I was hesitant to post that I didn’t know the term, and was thus bi-curious. šŸ™‚

  23. Fundy math example: One of the ads was from a woman (shcoking!) that wants to be a missionary to Mexico. She has already fallen into the fundy trap of spewing platitudes without thinking about what she is saying. She makes the statement that the “ministry” was founded 30 years ago and has experienced “exponential growth”. If this is true and they started with 1 person in 1983 and experienced true exponential growth (measured on a yearly basis), the current ministry would be larger than the population of Mexico. I’m guessing she went to Hyles Anderson.

    Of course she could could be referring to exponential growth over the life of the ministry. In that case, if they started with 2 people in 1983 and now have 4, they have (in a technical sense) experienced exponential growth.

    3. Growth rate depends on multiple independent variables. Extremely slow exponential growth can be constructed, although the quantization problem’s going to be tough – can’t have .23 of a person joining the ministry or being saved, eh?
      negative acceleration is still acceleration.
      Of course, it’s probably None Of The Above, just ignorance. Have to say that you don’t have to be IFB to make this blunder šŸ™

      1. “Extremely slow exponential growth can be constructed, although the quantization problemā€™s going to be tough..”

        That’s true. Gotta spend some time messing about with t and r in order to juke the right result.

        “Of course, itā€™s probably None Of The Above, just ignorance”

        Yes, I suspect you’re right. Humans are good at that.

      2. I concur. My savings account is an example of an extremely slow exponential growth rate. My wife and I recently calculated that we should be able to retire in something like 50,000 years.

        1. Oh, you can share a retirement duplex with my wife and me. We’re due to retire about the same time.

  24. Well, you have to give one of them some credit for requiring background checks. Does that mean secular, or in-network?

    1. Background checks, in this scenario, means:

      1. Asking if the wife wears pajama pants in bed.

      2. Asking for proof that they have never missed on of the “three to thrive” church services, even on vacation to non-English speaking countries.

      3. Asking if they have ever, or would ever, submit their children into godless, compromising ministries such as AWANA.

      2. In my haste, I forgot that a background check in this world is more akin to the famous missionary questionnaire. Thanks, I was too graciously assuming a more-real one.

        1. What’s checking for criminal convictions compared to finding out what the wife wears to bed and what kinds of dolls the children play with?

        2. And if you play board games.
          Dice equals the appearance of evil equals evil. Therefore, games involving dice are as sinful as playing cards.

      3. My old fundy church got rid of the AWANA program in the early 2000s. I heard it was because they were pushing contemporary music. Is this true?

        I still have my sparkies, cubbies, and chums/guards vests. Those were good times with some good people. My mom just recently told me, however, that she HATED going to work AWANA. Being on the flip-side of fundamentalism, I can understand why.

        1. I just googled “fundamentalism AWANA” and got a Jack Hyles related website. I clicked on it, and my work internet filter blocked it as “intolerance/hate”.

          Oh the irony. :mrgreen:

        2. Many of the more “conservative” churches dropped AWANA when they began to publish the material using the NIV. At the same time they updated the material and lessons and left the old Western type theme with the Indian pictures for something the kids in the program might actually relate to. One excuse I heard was it was “too cartoony”.
          It also, used properly, it was like a catechism. The lessons involved questions and answers from Scripture designed to teach doctrine with verses to back them up. Maybe the mogs had trouble with the lack of proof-texting, afraid that teaching proper Bible might show their own Biblical shortcomings.

        3. I can sure agree with that bit about showing up the preechur. The Piper-phile who destroyed our church would occasionally actually crack open his Bible (thereby surprising us all), and express astonishment over a verse that I learned in AWANA when I was eight years old. This seminary graduate had obviously never seen the verse before.

        4. There’s been more than one FWOTW caught by my work’s filter for the same reason. Sad.

        5. Not over music. All we ever sang was the AWANA song. No, it’s over Bible versions and second-third-fourth degrees of Separation.

          My last church’s new “pastor” dismantled our VERY successful AWANA program because it wasn’t invented by Calvinists. That church doesn’t exist anymore.

        6. My church ditched awana for the same reason, and I also heard it was because of the music.
          In AWANA we only sang kiddie songs a capella, so the program didn’t include music really. But the issue was that the churches and publishers ASSOCIATED with AWANA were leaning toward contemporary music, and we didn’t want any evil leaking in between the workbook pages.
          That was the explanation I got anyway.

  25. The grammar is abysmal. Then I saw this:

    “INVESTOR SEEKING SCOOL:
    Baptist leaning non-denominational KJB layman has money to put towards the creation of a Christian college prep K-12 school in Georgia or South Carolina. Interested churches may contact jeaflor@yahoo.com”

    Please, please,PLEASE do not go to this man’s “scool.”

    1. Would it be cruel or snarky to suggest that in that part of the country he’s more than qualified? :mrgreen:

      1. Eh! Eh! Eh! I got my edumacashun from a fine upstandin scool in one of them thar states, and I turned out fiiiiiine. :mrgreen:

        So fine that when I went to college, I didn’t know how to do diddly squat and failed miserably. šŸ˜³

    3. There are already a number of “fine, fundamental” K-12 college prep scools in South Carolina. They prepare their stoodents for such quality institutions as BJU, Ambassador, and Church Basement Bible Institute.

  26. Has anyone else noticed the common theme in so many of these ads? Little or no financial compensation!

    “Full time work but only able to pay part time wages” šŸ™„

    1. Yes, I noticed that… I think that people using / reading this web site are pretty desperate…

  27. “We do not believe in Calvinism” Oh that awful Calvinism. It’s steals our people and makes them leave our churches. Lets hate what we do not understand. After all our main agenda is to fill the pew so I don’t have to work. I will hunt for some smuck, Bible school drop out to do that. Oh great, now I have the song “Beauty school drop out” going through my head.

  28. Oh, man, what is it with the grammar and spelling mistakes? Is this a common thing with these guys? Bible college doesn’t teach the basics, apparently…

    I especially loved this one:
    “INVESTOR SEEKING SCOOL:
    Baptist leaning non-denominational KJB layman has money to put towards the creation of a Christian college prep K-12 school in Georgia or South Carolina. Interested churches may contact jeaflor@yahoo.com”

    You know, because everybody needs some scool.

  29. I was told one time that a certain church would be perfect for my future ministry. I have three children and a wife and a mortgage. I was expected to live in the parsonage, then live off of 50 dollars a week. The church had 11 people. When I turned down the job I was offered, I was shamed for not accepting because it would have been “perfect”. Perfect if I would destitute my family….

    1. The head of your English professor?
      Your own head, you being an English Professor?
      Your own head, metaphorically that of an English Professor?
      The head of your professor, who is from England?
      Your own head, you being from England?

      1. All these badly-made sentences are gettting to you, Phil.

        J. Heller is an English professor. I think his whole body is, but maybe just his head is a professor. šŸ˜‰

        1. The rest of me is pure slob. (Otherwise, Big Gary is right. Not that my own grammar is always right on this site. What I need is an edit function.)

        2. “What I need is an edit function”

          We have one. His name is george. He don’t edit to good though.

  31. At BJU, one of the preacher boys (highly-regarded by the administration; not so much by the students) asked our English professor, in the middle of Shakespeare class,

    “Why do we bother studying Shakespeare? All we need to know is in the Bible!”

    He didn’t even notice that his innards were lying all over the floor, she eviscerated him so, um, NICELY. With a smile on her face and gentleness in her voice.

    1. This was the same dude who challenged a group of us accounting majors, declaring that if we REALLY loved God, we would be Bible majors, instead of pursuing filthy lucre.

      We asked him if he wouldn’t like to have a bunch of lousy accounting majors putting long green into the offering plate of any church so unfortunate as to call him to be its pastor, in the sweet by and by.

      I think his cerebellum fused at that moment.

      On a related note, when I was seven years old, I was paging through my mom’s old Pillsbury BBC yearbooks. Everyone there was required to be a Bible major. I called to my mom and said, “These guys all look like dorks.” She replied, “That’s because they all WERE dorks.”

      So, based on what I have seen out of preacher boys, it is no shock that their writings would be full of errors (kinda like their preaching, eh?).

        1. No, I was never blessed enough to live anywhere near THAT crowd.

          Dude’s name was (and probably still is) Aaron Young.

        4. Strange to include the NASB, I’ve seen people that transfer their worship from KJVO to Textus Receptus and say NKJV is ok, strange to add the NASB as OK in the mix.

        5. “Textus Receptus” sounds like something out of Warhammer 40K. (Yeah, I know, it’s because the setting deliberately evokes medieval religious tropes. )

        6. I have heard fundy-lite folks (in the BJU circuit) saying that NASB was VERY close to the Greek, even more so than the KJV. (Maybe the Hebrew too, not sure.)

    2. Have I mentioned that my specialty is Shakespeare?

      I have actually had a student ask that question before. There are lots of ways to answer the question, but I usually don’t believe in the honesty of the question. I think I would answer the student in three ways:

      1) First, by showing him directly that most of what he uses in his daily life is not mentioned in the Bible.
      2) The Bible uses materials from other cultures. (Perhaps this assertion would have gotten me fired from IFB schools, but it would be true.)
      and 3) Shakespeare has shaped our culture.

      1. I had a couple students in the IFB Christian school where I taught who didn’t do homework and were very scornful of English in general because they planned on being in ministry as pastors or evangelists.

        I told them that the Bible that they wanted to preach so badly said this: “whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might” and that included English grammar and literature in my class. Also the Bible said to obey them which have the rule over you which I did as the teacher.

        Lastly I said that they never knew who would be in their churches. Educated people in the pews might not respect a pastor who couldn’t write or speak properly.

        (One of the boys was back in town from Bible college and came to my room and apologized for being rebellious and having a bad attitude while in my class. I respected him for that.)

      2. in regards to the “why do the humanities matter for Christians” question, I often take my students to Tolkien’s concept of sub-creation. When we engage in literary activity, we mirror God’s act of creation–in a small way, we even contribute to creation. It is a beautiful and sacred thing, and is one of the strongest evidences for the image of God in man.

      3. “It’s like Shakespeare. Sounds good, but doesn’t mean anything.”

        — Bertie Wooster

      4. Oh yes. And for a medievalist, it is worse. Pointing out that being educated means that your head has to be open to more than one thought at a time generally does hot penetrate their skulls.

    3. was it Dr. Silvester? Possibly my favorite teacher ever. Her classroom was like a breath of fresh air at BJU.

        1. I guessed it was Dr. McCauley!

          (One of my regrets about taking Shakespeare at BJU is that there were non-English majors in the class who were just taking it to fulfill their English requirements, people like this guy who didn’t even WANT to be there.)

        2. I guessed it was her, too! Had her for Chaucer on the graduate level–the best class I ever took at BJU. I can totally see her sweetly taking down such an ego. šŸ˜€

        3. Dr. MccCauley was an equally wonderful person. I could go on and on about all the support I received from her. Praise God for teachers like this. Have you heard Mr. Dr. McCauley was recently fired, by the way?

        4. Yes, I heard. In the long line of despicable acts committed by Jaw Bones University, this ranks among the worst.

        5. I was so sad to hear that. To be happy with a professor for a couple decades and then to fire him within a year or two of retirement seems extremely unsavory to me.

        6. Tweren’t a couple of decades. His daughters tell me that he had 45 years there, though he left and came back.

          He was two years from retiring.

          This is illegal age discrimination. They claim that they fired him for inappropriate use of practice time (apparently he checked an email once) and for having low student ratings (though his ratings were in the Normal range; and since when did Jaw Bones ever care what the students thought?).

          I think the reality is that Jaw Bones is dying, and they are jettisoning staff left and right in an effort to reduce costs, and calling it “retirement.”

          I will get to see them soon, as the Musical Mission Team visits Heidelberg.

          These two people had a fantastic impact on the lives of so many of us who were on that mission team! I am in a deadly rage over that place’s treatment of Dr. Mom and Dr. Dad. What an evil place. The faculty were the only reason it was close to liveable, and the faculty are being treated every bit as badly as the worst of us old Chi Delt members.

      2. I also wondered if it were Dr. Silvester. Her class on Milton was one of the best things to happen to me. I now make my own students memorize portions of Areopagitica.

        2. I loved her class on Ancient and Medieval Lit–especially the part where she sweetly invited anyone who objected to reading the graphic details of Ovid (including Zeus inpregnating everything in sight such as trees, clouds, etc.) to talk to her after class abotu their concerns. But she smilingly added that no matter what they said, the texts she has chosen for this class have always been and will always be required reading for this class.
          When I first started thinking about graduate school, I approached her about the possibility of graduate school at another Christian school. She smiled, and said, “Oh, not for someone like YOU.”
          I’m still not entirely sure what that meant, but I like it.
          I am now actually in graduate school at a Christian institution, but only after considering all my options, including secular ones. Actually, my professors at BJU were the ones encouraging me to pursue secular graduate programs. I have a feeling Triple Sticks would not have appreciated that, had he known . . .

        3. @ExComm: I went to graduate school at a state university, and the BJU English faculty was very encouraging. Dr. S wrote me an email congratulating me and wishing me well.

          Did you ever have a class with Dr McNeely? He scandalized his students with _The Great Gatsby_ and Jorge Luis Borges and other modernist / postmodernist texts. I loved his classes.

        4. Had Dr. McNeely for Modern World Lit. Thoroughly enjoyed it. I heard he recently taught a graduate seminar on Joyce, too. He also teaches Postmodern Lit–I didn’t take the class, but I used the syllabus as a personal reading list and profited immensely from it.
          People in my current graduate program are always gasping and saying, “You read THAT at BJU”? That’s when I give credit where it’s due: to the awesome faculty. Despite the oppression I went though at that place, I would not trade my time in the classroom with those folks for anything.

        5. I remember really enjoying a lit. class taught by Mr. Hurst.

          I think people who want control over other people will always fear literature (and the arts in general).

    4. This story just confirms for me why we need real BIBLE colleges, not this liberal BJU nonsense. Listening to your story of how that liberal, hippie professor tried to destroy a young man’s FAITH in class reminds me of a Chick tract I once read. I had my doubts that the secular colleges were that bad, but now I realize they are. I hope this young man got out before it was too late and transferred to a REAL Bible-preaching, sin-hating college, like Hyles-Anderson.

      1. Heh.

        Yeah, I had several HAC teachers in high school. I used to get extra credit for fixing the grammar and factual errors on tests as I took them.

      1. I think it was along these lines: how Jesus and Paul were both familiar with the pop culture of their day, as evidenced by the allusions they used in their speaking; how Shakespeare, like the Bible, has permeated the idiom of English-speaking people around the globe, and so we are stunted if we are not conversant in it; how those who refuse to study the classics are demonstrating their mental and psychological inferiority; how failing the course due to your misguided ideas about studying the classics could force you to repeat a year (or at least a semester) of college.

        I realize that she probably used far too many multisyllabic words, and so he probably didn’t understand much of what she said. But I thought it was beautiful.

        2. well, I’ve heard the English department is usually the most liberal department of any school, and that’s no less true at BJU. What I found at BJU was a bunch of smart, qualified, open-minded professors quietly doing their thing in a place where they didn’t seem to fit in to everything else around them. I have nothing for the utmost respect for the faculty I encountered in my degree program. I remember one of the English faculty proudly sporting slacks to a English Department gathering to honor outgoing seniors. You have to understand just how brave this was at BJU. I also recall one of them saying that Catholics can be saved (definitely NOT the approved BJU stance).
          At my current school, everybody’s pretty laid-back, so we English folks don’t stand out as much šŸ˜†

        3. PS-the one sporting slacks was female, which is where the shock value comes in šŸ˜‰

        4. I was just “a dumb trade student”, but was able to take regular University classes at BJU because of my major. (Those from BJU previous to 4 years ago will understand the dumb part).
          I was an older, married town student also. I remember near Christmas break in my Lit class discussing poetry, and the conversation between the instructor and me somehow got to Johnny Cash songs. Most of the class just kind of stared as if they didn’t know what to say.
          For BJ, that was, I guess, fairly liberal.

          As I recall, she didn’t mind Johnny, just hated his rendition of “I Heard The Bells On Christmas Day”.

        5. eh, I had waay more respect for SAS students than Women’s Ministries majors (aka MRS. Degree seekers). I certainly would have trouble learning the intricacies of how a plane or a car works, because my brain’s not cut out for that sort of thing. But I was pretty sure I could have passed the Women’s Ministries classes (to become a Woman Minister? for shame!) with my brain tied behind my back.

        6. Two more memories from English at Jaw Bones:

          1. The summer after my junior year (1991), Janie McCauley was offered a study tour to England. Ten days, $2000 per person, all inclusive. Only problem was, Dr. Horton (Department Head) already had a study tour lined up. Two weeks, $4000 per person. When Dr. Mom announced her trip, many people switched over to hers. Dr. Horton was not happy, and called Dr. Mom in to tell her that she was not permitted to advertise her trip. This did not sit well with me, so I went to every single person on Horton’s list and asked them to cancel from his trip and sign up for Dr. Mom’s trip…or, if they wouldn’t switch, to cancel on Horton anyway. Then, I recruited until we had enough for Dr. Mom’s trip to go, including paying for my mom to go. We had a wonderful time, and Horton stayed in Greenville all summer.

          2. On this trip, we ate lunch at the Rock Island Diner, which is one of those stereotypical ’50s diners with a ’57 Chevy sticking out of the wall over the bar, and a live DJ. We spent a few hours there, requesting songs and singing along. Dr. Mom was not a stranger to that music. Good times were had by all.

        7. Wow what a great memory. I would have to struggle to think of a great memory like that from BJ. It’s like a bad blurry nightmare. My fathers psychiatrist friend, who hung out at my families house for several years told me that he thought BJU had given me PTSD or rather my god awful roommate did. Your story made me smile about the place.

        8. My positive memories of Jaw Bones are almost exclusively related to sticking it to them in one way or another.

          Exceptions:

          1. Dr. St. John and his dry wit, which soared over the heads of his EN102 students at 8AM.

          2. Mr. Martin, the accounting teacher who could multiply two five-digit numbers in his head faster than we could do it on calculators.

          3. The congregational singing. I never knew how musically poor many churches are until I left the BJU orbit. Is it really that hard to learn how to sing well, and to harmonize?

          4. Dr. Mom’s Chaucer class. I hadn’t read my assignment. I knew there would be a quiz, which required us to write a page-long paper about the topic of her choice. She asked us to write about the Red Cross Knight. I had no idea what to write, but I filled my paper thusly:

          “I didn’t read my assignment, so I have no knowledge of the Red Cross Knight. However, when I think about him, the first thing that comes to mind is ‘Hot Cross Buns.'”

          I proceeded to fill the entire page with some nonsense about Red Cross Knight and Hot Cross Buns. I lost the paper, but it was pretty funny.

          She read my paper to the class, announced my grade as a B+, and warned me to never let it happen again.

        9. @exFromFun–you should have seen the look on face of the kid next to me in that same class when he learned I was “one of them”. I was making better grades than he was, and wasn’t working as hard for that grade. Maybe because I enjoyed the class.

          I never understood the stigma attached to trade students. I would have put my Aircraft Maintenance classes against any other major as far as hard courses. As a note, I have never had any trouble getting a job as an Aviation Mechanic, even with a BJU degree.

          About twenty years after I left, I ran into a director of the SAS. I asked if the attitude was still there. His answer: “The current joke on campus is ‘How many SAS students does it take to change a light bulb? I don’t know either, but they get three credits’.”

        10. it also helps that one of the smartest people I currently was an aviation major at BJU (missionary aviation, actually, which I’m not sure exists anymore).
          I think part of the stigma comes from the fact that when the SAS was first started, it was specifically for those who “couldn’t make it” in regular degree programs. And for some SAS programs, like Early Childhood or hairstyling, that may be a fair assessment . . . but there’s a big difference between cutting hair and fixing a plane.

        13. I agree that the cosmetology students weren’t necessarily college material, but I’m glad they exist. As much as I enjoy intricate aircraft repairs, and have no qualms about cutting and filling holes in airplane skins, I wouldn’t apply scissors to anyone’s hair.

          One of the soapboxes my wife tells me to dismount is that, in spite of current trends, NOT EVERYONE IS COLLEGE MATERIAL. We still need tradespeople. We need plumbers, welders, mechanics, etc. Not everyone needs an MBA to succeed. (I wanted to type “secede” in honor of the spelling in the ads in todays post, but didn’t want to be the only one in on the lame joke)

        14. but, but, if you’re not college material, how are you going to find God’s Perfect Helpmeet For You ™? Clearly the hallowed halls of Fundy U must be open to all who are breathing, born again, and able to reproduce! The “Future Students” section of the BJU Review(containing birth announcements from alumni) must never run dry!

        15. Ah, but it is shrinking.

          Soon, the section for “retiring” faculty will be larger.

        16. I have no argument. If anything, I can only bolster your comment, tongue-in-cheek tho it be. My wife would tell you she wasn’t college material, but went to Fundy U because “it was the thing to do”. We have been married 29 1/2 years. And judging by the stories of my workmates, we did it wrong. We married people we like and have been happy all this time.
          Looking back, as immature and ignorant of ‘the real world’ as we were, it is only God’s grace it worked out and we are where we are today. At the time and a few years afterwards, we were serious kool-aid drinkers.

        17. I’m glad you two found each other–sounds like you did everything “right” to me! My husband and I also found each other there, before we were fully weaned off the koolaid ourselves. God knew what he was doing.
          BJU is a kooky environment, but that doesn’t mean beautiful things can’t happen in it. And since I found the love of my life there, I know it wasn’t entirely the “wrong” place for me to be at the time. Obviously not for you guys, either šŸ™‚

        18. We actually met at Tennessee Temple. It was while I was at BJU a few years into marriage that I learned of life outside the KJVO crowd and she started wearing pants. I had my share of instructors who spouted the party line, but happily there were others.

  33. I am thinking of posting an ad:

    “Hello frinds. I am a KJV only, sin hating, man of God. I graduated near the top of my class from Bible College. I believe in the old time ways. I do not need to be payed to preach as I am bi-vocational. I moonlight as a professinal poker player. I would prefer a church near Biloxi or Tunica MS or near an Indian reservation. If interested please contact me.”

    1. Be sure not to put any sort of a name in there or offer any actual evidence about your qualifications.

  34. There was a mindset in my old fundie church that anyone who worked in the ministry should not be paid well. There was various reasoning, but I think the heart of it all was that the church people were jealous of the people who were climbing up the fundie ladder and the way they could pull them down is financially.

  35. Isn’t there some sort of urban legend about a group of Christian school principals/pastors at a PCC summer session being told to pay their teachers as little as possible?

    1. It would make sense. It is not exactly a secret that if you pay your employees low enough wages, they will find it almost impossible to leave their employment.

    2. My former fundy pastor made a great deal of money…$250k a year, plus a whole lotta extras…back in 2001 (so probably more than that now). Yet, the Christian school he operated paid their employees so little…

    3. I’m not entirely sure this is an urban legend. I think the actual statement was something along the lines of workers come and go, so it’s better to invest in facilities. And I think he got the idea from Robert Jones.

  36. #1 red flag that immediately goes off for me is when people start naming ministries after themselves (pride-alert)! IE: “lastnameofperson ministries”

  37. Award for the best sound effects on an IFB website:

    CHURCH SEEKING PASTOR:
    Beulah Baptist Church located in North Fla. about 20 min. from Tallahassee, please go to our web site to fine the details about our church http://www.beulahbaptistcwc.com

    1. That got annoying VERY quickly!

      (I did like the cute white flowers on the blue background.)

  38. I went through the whole thing and marked it up in Microsoft Word with grammatical, spelling, punctuation, etc. fixes. The insanity was oddly soothing after awhile.

    BUT WOULD SOMEONE PLEASE LEARN HOW TO USE A HYPHEN CORRECTLY?!

  39. Not sure if it is wise for anyone in these classifieds to advertise that they are a layman… especially given the history of the IFB pulpits these days. But then again maybe it’s just truth in advertising? šŸ˜Æ šŸ˜•

  40. If you feel that God would have you be the #2 man for our church…

    I’m picturing Austin Powers as the head MOG: “WHO DOES #2 WORK FOR!?”

    1. Prisoner: Where am I?
      Number Two (not identified as yet): In the village.
      Prisoner: What do you want?
      Two: Information. Prisoner: Whose side are you on? Two: That would be telling…. We want information…information…information!
      Prisoner: You won’t get it!
      Two: By hook or by crook, we will.
      Prisoner: Who are you?
      Two: The new Number Two.
      Prisoner: Who is Number One?
      Two: You are Number Six.
      Prisoner: I am not a number; I am a free man!
      Two: [Laughter]

      1. Haha. I recently discovered The Prisoner. I asked for the DVD set for my birthday next month. If I don’t get it, I will cry.

        1. I think I watched every episode of “The Prisoner” when it was first shown in the U.S. I must have been about nine or ten. No one can convince me that it was not the coolest TV show ever. Not just on Earth, but in the whole solar system, and possibly the universe.

  41. Think I’m going to advertise as KJV 1610. I figure if I can get in an extra year in it might put me ahead of the other applicants.

  43. “I also have a Bachelor of Science degree in Pastoral Theology”

    What the hell? How can one do a BSc in metaphysics?
    I can understand doing a BSc in psychology, without courses on criticism of religious methods, but how could one do undergrad science in theology?

    1. In the USA, BSc has lost any real connection to the sciences in secular colleges and Universities; don’t even hope for someone to grasp the Trivium and Quadrivium and their relationship to the Baccalaureate awarded for a course of study. šŸ˜

      1. I have a BSc, in earth sciences. The fact that these turnips can appropriate that title for non-science courses is really disturbing.

        Ironic thing is, I’ll bet that these guys (almost always men) who devalue Science, are the very same guys who shout to high heaven that the term “marriage” is devalued by allowing same-sex couples to wed.

        1. But the term “Doctor” isn’t devalued by giving out honarary doctorates to horses and less-intelligent life forms.
          Oh, no, not at all.

        2. Well, I’ve never heard of one being given to a horse.

          To a horse’s ass, yes. Many times.

          But never to a horse.

        5. MSK, the second category you mention was my reason for including life forms less intelligent than horses.

    2. They’re not called BSc in the United States but rather BS. Which is often an apt name.

  44. One of them admits: “I play guitar.”

    Our church would never have hired a liberal compromiser like that!!!

  45. The lady from Panama City, Florida looking for a pastor who can support himself, they have blended worship, etc etc etc, want someone who follows our beliefs, etc etc etc.
    There are 80 Baptist churches in Panama City.
    Why do they need another?

    1. Cos “independent” is just another excuse to break away and start a new church.

      Dis-association is a great way to ensure that hundreds of little churches exist each with their own pastoral staff. It supports many church related industries. If each city had only one or two churches, loads of people would lose their livelihoods which necessitate the “independent” church movement.

      1. I have my own corner of the universe and I don’t want other people mucking it up.

    3. “There are 80 Baptist churches in Panama City.
      Why do they need another?”

      Because there are more than 80 PCC graduates wanting their own pulpits.

  46. Hello, my name is Richard Wayne Penniman. I am a preacher of the gospel, available for meetings and revivals. I believe in the old time religion, no speaking in tongues a-wop-bom-a-loo-mop-a-lomp-bom-bom. Interested? Give me a call, because I can’t hear your mama call. I got a gal named Sue, and she might not play the piano but she knows just what to do. So please don’t leave me alone.

    1. Mr. Penniman:

      It has come to our attention that your Uncle John was recently observed ducking back into the alley after being seen with bald-headed Sally by Aunt Mary.

      We were at first willing to overlook this minor error in judgment until we learned that the alley your Uncle John ducked back into led to a movie theater.

      Remember, we must avoid the appearance of evil.

    2. Mr. Penniman is now Dr. Penniman. He just received an honorary doctorate from Mercer University in his home town of Macon, GA.

      Just like a true mog.

  47. One would expect that, of all things, an employment application would be treated with respect by the author and would thus not be replete with error.

    An advert that has not been QA’d in any observable sense should be disregarded.

    1. Yes indeed. I always discard any resume or application that shows no effort at proofreading, unless I can see reasons for the lack.

  48. IFB Spelling and Grammar Services

    Iā€™m a 33 year old professional who feels led by God to provide sorely needed ministry to the Pastors and Preachers of the IFB churches. About two hours ago God placed a fire within me to correct some of the hideous errors that have crept into the job advertisements being posted on this site.

    If you want someone to take your application seriously then please give them the respect they deserve by communicating in a manner that suggests you are serious. A 30 second hatchet job that you could not be bothered to proof-read will get you nowhere.

    I am prepared to review your advertisements for a love offering*.

    *At a rate not less than Ā£500 per hour.

      1. You don’t want to lower your prices that much. Remember that every error correction will be an argument.

      2. OK; corrected pricing: $1 for each correction. $20/hour (min: 1 hour) if you argue about it. (No charge if I make an error)

  49. It’s difficult to believe that these are real ads. But as I am a former fundy – I believe they are legit. SAD šŸ™ šŸ™ šŸ™

  50. Oh my gosh!! I am 99% sure I know that Bill Keisling guy. If it’s the guy I know, his ex-wife attended our church growing up and I was friends with his kids. He abandoned his wife and kids to shack up with another woman while he was still pastor of one of his churches. He then refused to divorce his wife so that he wouldn’t have to pay child support. She refused to divorce him because our pastor told her that divorce was a sin and that it was her fault that her husband left her. (Don’t even get me started on that!)

    Anyway, the man was a nasty pervert. Like I said, I knew his kids, and they were perpetually disgusted by the series of girlfriends that he cavorted with after leaving their mother. (His church finally fired him and he was a truck driver for a while. I had heard that he was trying to “get back into the ministry.”) I remember one woman in particular that he met through a “prison ministry” and he used to read her sexually-explicit letters aloud to his children when they would go to visit him.

      2. Oh wow. Pretty sure that’s him. (I only met him 2 or 3 times several years ago.) I really hope I’m wrong!!!

    2. Grrrrrr. Yet another scam against Fundy women.

      You are damned if you file for divorce from your (cheating, abusive, etc) husband

      If you do not file for divorce, you will NEVER collect adequate child support

      If you file for divorce, the Fundy world will blame you for ruining your ex-husband’s ministry, because you were “unforgiving” – but will eventually accept him back in full capacity

      If you do not file for divorce you are damned to being the constantly hopeful, always disappointed and abused wife of a roving philanderer who blames you for everything.

      Fundy women just can’t win in this system.

      1. Wait, can’t you sue for child support, and get it, even if you are still married to the father of your children?

        In my state you can.

        1. It’s possible but quite difficult and highly complex even for an experienced family lawyer to get and order for child support while a couple remains married but doesn’t want to get a divorce. “Highly complex” is legalese for “it will cost you $$$$$$$$$$” which the lady in this case did NOT have. (She was so poor at first, people in our church had to buy her groceries or they literally would have had no food. Being “married” made it almost impossible to get any welfare.)

          To her credit, she managed to earn a bachelor’s degree while raising four children on Pell Grants and a teacher’s aide salary. She is now a special education teacher and is quite comfortable.

      2. Wow. I didn’t know that. In Queensland, child support kicks in when you separate.

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