198 thoughts on “Eating Crow”

    1. This dude is just up the road from me. We’ve been looking for a church. Maybe we’ll visit this sunday. Yeah….

      1. Good grief, let us stage an intervention before you go visit there 🙂 And wherever you go, don’t head to Dunn for Foundations Bible either.

  2. The apology is about as sincere as sports stars who mess up and say whatever their publicist tells them to say.

    “My comments were taken out of context,” is my favorite weasel out phrase.

  4. So I only listened to the first 2:30 of the apology. My takeaways:

    I stopped at the 2:30 mark because he started to preach. Just STFU already. It’s you talking that got you in this mess.
    The apology should have lasted no longer than 1 minute and consist of him saying he was sorry if he offended anyone and that he was wrong.
    I like how he somehow tries to connect 4 year olds with living the LGBT lifestyle. I don’t think he understands the words coming out of his own mouth.
    He got letters of encouragement from his congregation??? Can you say brainwashed.

    1. I got the same vibe at 2:30. He starts with “however, I do not apologize something something about God’s word regarding homosexuality blah blah blah.” He should have just stopped there because he’s talking out of both sides of his mouth.

      The whole “apology” was written by a lawyer and was read in a monotonous tone that conveyed to me he wasn’t happy he had to apologize.

      The fact that he got notes of encouragement I find disturbing too. I’ll bet these people spend more time at church than they do at home as a family. That right there is part of the reason their kids are so insecure.

  5. Yeah, sure, totally. I believe it. 🙄

    He needs to read Proverbs 26:18-19…

    Like a maniac shooting
    flaming arrows of death
    is one who deceives their neighbor
    and says, “I was only joking!”

  6. Enough children are severely abused in Fundystan. Thanks, a$$hole for giving parents another reason to torture their children and feel good about it. Makes my stomach churn.

    1. It’s the kind of philosophy you often find in idlers loafing around the gas station and in guys doing time at the local prison, but learning that someone who thinks and speaks this way is the pastor of a church makes me sad.

    2. Exactly. Jesus did not die so you, Pastor Sean Harris ,could be an a$$hole and teach your church to abuse their children.

  7. his tone of voice is very grudging. Like he’s purposely trying to sounds robotic. As the fundie sermon illustration goes . . “Mommy, I’m sitting down on the outside, but I’m standing up on the inside!”

  9. Second, and it’s my birthday, too! 😎

    No.I don’t think he’s really sorry. I think he got caught out and realized he had say something to pour oil on the waters.

    2. Happy birthday, Tikatu!

      Have a nice celebratory can of sardines. (If that picture of you is accurate and you are a cat. 😉 )

  10. He’s a bully, plain and simple. “I was only kidding” is the classic excuse when someone’s feelings are hurt. It makes them seem in the wrong for overreacting.

    I blogged about what I thought of the sermon here: http://bit.ly/JFf8v8

    -HH

  11. It’s really very funny just how many fundies post their sermons online so they can reach out to the heathen masses, and then get a shock when the heathens respond.

    And they don’t even have a clue what they’re saying wrong. They are just completely out of it.

  12. i heard about this story and checked it out online. So my first reaction was: Typical fundy church with typical rhetoric, thusly I looked up the church website. Expecting to see flaming KJVs floating around and an angel that followed my cursor, I was pleasantly surprised to see a modern looking website of a “fundamental church”. Looking at the doctrine page, i noticed something that blew my mind. “{we} teach and preach out of the kjv but feel free to bring whichever translation you like” *gasp* In the pastor’s bio, he even says he enjoys his ESV study bible and contemporary artist Michael Card. I stared in disbelief…maybe this is a different level of fundy-ness. I guess, though, that people get riled up and the fundiness comes out.

    I agree, that he does not seem truly sorry.

    1. It’s all cheap window-dressing to say “See, we’re not at all like you heard!” It’s all cheap, tacky window-dressings, catering to what man can see. God looks on the heart. Out of the heart, the mouth speaks.

  15. I don’t believe this guy is sorry. Maybe he is sorry that he got caught with his foot in his mouth. But I have a hard time believing that after the sermon, reflecting on what he said, he voluntairily came up with that apology and posted it.

  16. In his “retraction” he quotes some Bible verses which are not KJV! What kind of fundy is he? 😕

      1. I didn’t look up the affiliations of this church, but there are many fundy churches that aren’t KJV-only. The KJV-O folks separate from THEM!

  17. “I was using hyperbole in an effort to make a strong point….” I’m sorry, but at no point should punching children EVER be used as a hyperbole.

    And, did he really use the “if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off” verse as a response to effeminate hand gestures?!?! (9:45) I’m speechless.

  18. Pastors get caught up in their position. They forget they are being recorded, and their true thoughts come out. Luke 6:45. He was mixing fundy humor with his beliefs in order to get a self-serving response from his congregation.

    1. Yes, Tammy you hit the nail on the head. They are so used to speaking unchallenged and they absolutely LOVE the sound of their own voices, especially when the crows is reacting “positively” there are things that come out of their mouths I don’t even think they realize how completely foolish & evil they are. His apology is bull. He regrets the backlash, not his words.

        1. Well, with the title of “Eating Crow”, that typo was pretty appropriate, eh?

  19. At the core of this issue is a bad translation of MALAKOS in 1 Cor 6.

    The KJV translates it as “EFFEMINATE.” Today that word is more about “Being” than about “doing.” Pre-pubescent boys are effeminate by definition. It is not something you do. It is simply a physiological state. Clearly, God does not expect effeminate boys to take a dose of testosterone or steroids as a pre-condition to be accepted into the Kingdom of Heaven.

    And yet, our churches continue to suspect any late bloomer, or the “delicate” piano player, NOT for anything he does, but simply because of his levels of testosterone. Any young man who does not have testosterone levels high enough to have a beard will probably be banned (quietly) from teaching Sunday School classes.

    By the way, I checked 24 different bible translations and found 15 different renderings of MALAKOS into English. Clearly there is no consensus on how to translate this word. HOWEVER, the vast majority of experts have discarded “effeminate” as a valid translation.

    Bottom line: We do not know how to translate MALAKOS.

    1. Very thoughtful response. Thanks.
      I remember reading Dr. Dobson years ago and he told fathers not to panic when they see their young boys doing some things in a feminine way. They are often influenced by their mothers the most at a young age so it is natural to see things from that point of view for them.
      As a father of two boys my prayer is that they become like Jesus and be the man that God has called them to be in their heart first and foremost.

      1. Thank you, David. This needs to be said again and again and again. Our goal should be to raise children who are Christlike. My son, at 27, has just begun to really own the Christian commitment he made as an adolescent. He’s growing in the Lord and is a wonderful husband, father, and all-around human being. I can’t begin to tell you how pleased I am by that. It is indeed an answer to prayer, and I will try to remember to pray for you and your two boys. 🙂

    2. Pre-pubescent boys are not effeminate. Compare the way boys behave in a classroom against the way girls behave. There is no comparison. Boys fight, boys yell, boys play in the mud, boys play with GI Joes. Yes, some girls do all those things and some boys play with dolls but we’re speaking in generalities.

      1. Did you go through middle school? Through high school? Were you a late bloomer? Any of us who’s voice did not change until well into tenth grade can tell you that being pre-pubescent WAS considered being EFFEMINATE. (Whether true or not.)

        I did get punched, and more.

        I did not deserve it. Neither does any other kid.

    3. Also, MALAKOS means “soft.” It meant that in ancient Greek. It means that in modern Greek. It’s not a difficult word to understand at all.

      Exactly what is being criticized by saying a man is “soft” can be argued. Maybe it means he’s gay. Maybe it means he’s a coward. Maybe it means he’s spoiled.

      But the gist of the word is not hard to understand. “Effeminate” is a legitimate translation.

      1. Effeminate =? Soft.

        So anyone who is soft, through no fault of their own, shall not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven?

        The amount of testosterone that males have are on a continuum from the rugged lumberjack to the delicate individual. Do you care to set the limits? Who goes and who stays?

        The Koine experts I trust the most seem to suggest that MALAKOS referred to a young lad “reserved” for sexual favors. HOWEVER, no bible publisher has gone with that definition.

        Part of the problem is the obvious problem of blaming the victim. No boy who is forced by adult males to engage in sexual favors shall inherit the Kingdom of Heaven?

        NOT MY GOD!

        1. You certainly have the right to your own beliefs about God, but I was talking about the lexical definition of a word.

      2. I don’t agree. That translation is freighted with more cultural assumptions than I’d warrant for a careful translation. Soft can mean more things than effeminate. Others have weighed in with examples, but I’ll offer a thought: Jacob is described as being content to stay at home among the tents, in contrast to Esau. Does this make Jacob malakos? Probably to Esau, yes.

        1. Well, it doesn’t really matter if it’s “fraught with cultural assumptions.” Greek is a language and that language existed and exists in a specific culture. That culture is called “Greek.” You can find it in Greece, Cyprus, and parts of Turkey, Albania, and Bulgaria.

          In this area called “Greece” they use this same word in question as an insult against men. It means “soft” or “coward” or “wanker” or “homosexual.” You may ask a Greek speaking friend if you doubt me. You may look up the word in a bonafide Greek lexicon… Greek of any time period will suffice, Classical/Attic, Koine, Medieval, Modern… it means approximately the same thing.

        2. MALAKOS becomes a problem because of the assumptions we try to put into Scripture.

          IF we want to believe that it is inspired, IF we want to believe it is somehow the Word of God, then we have to “make” the translation be “right.”

          “Effeminate” taken as “soft,” as a physical condition cannot possibly be accepted as a valid interpretation since it would mean that God has decided not to like some of his creatures simply because of the way they look.

          While I think I would agree with Elijah Craig about the technical issues in Greek, the fact of the matter is that the pastor in question is using this passage NOT to attack actual homosexual behavior, actual “wanking” behavior, but simply the fact that their boys may do something PERCEIVED AS EFFEMINATE. (regardless of actual intent or thoughts by the boys.)

  20. Ok, I’ve posted this before and it seems nobody knows the answer so I’ll post it here: Does anybody know if Sean Harris is related to Larry and Joy Harris who came to Australia as IFB missionaries?

    1. Hi Tiariali. I don’t know if this Sean is any relation, but I do know the Larry Harris family. The IFB church/college I grew up in supported this missionary family and I met them personally. How close are they to where you are? I can’t speak for what they believe/practice or how IFBX they are or aren’t… but knowing where they’ve come from and many of the “financial supporters”, I’d say they are IFB and then some.

  21. That wasn’t an apology, that was a “retraction.” There is an enormous difference. And as someone else said farther up the thread, he “apologized” then went straight into preaching. BARF!

  22. In the original video, he’s making a valid point about raising boys to become men, but he veers off into the territory that so many fundamentalists do: the confusing straw man of meaninglessness. What fundamental Baptist is dressing up his 4-year-old boy to look like a girl and posting it on YouTube? Maybe it happened once? Is it even worth bringing up and taking up a whole evening to “preach” about?

    1. “valid point about raising boys to become men”

      I disagree. According to this guy’s version of “MEN,” boys would not be accepted if they played dress up, if they wanted to join the school play instead of playing Football, if they preferred to play the violin rather than participate in the wrestling school team.

      Forget the fact the the highest paid chefs are male. Boys are not supposed to linger in the kitchen.

      Can boys grow up to be teachers, bookkeepers, nurses or cooks? Painters or musicians? Actors?

      Not according to this pastor.

      Can women be truck drivers, loggers, steel workers, doctors, presidents or gasp, preachers?

      Not according to this pastor.

      I love a poster at our local community college recruiting women to play Rugby: “Tackle like a girl.”

      Do you have daughters? Do you really want to teach her that for boys the sky is the limit, but girls have to settle for less?

      NOT MY GOD!

      1. Amen, Ricardo.
        Or, as we say in Spanish (como habla Dios en el cielo): amen.

      2. I don’t know any female loggers or steel workers. Or female carpenters, electricians, brick masons. I’ve heard of one woman who worked on a drilling rig. The local fire department has about 50 full time firemen and none are female.

        I’ve done all those things or had close family who does. Many professions absolutely are effectively off-limits to women. It has nothing to do with intelligence or demeanor and everything to do with upper body strength.

        So yeah, there are certain realities that women need to accept because they really cannot be changed. There are realities that men need to accept because it comes with being a man.

        However, if you list the Fruits of the Spirit, they are what our culture tells us is feminine. But in truth, virtues are neither masculine or feminine. They may work out differently in practice between men and women, but in essence they are the same thing.

        We consider it a virtue to not be controlling of another person. Maybe for a man this means not to use his physical size to intimidate his wife. Maybe for a woman this means not to connive or withhold sex or whatever. But the underlying principle is the same: don’t use your comparative strengths to take unfair advantage of another human being.

        2. Yeah, Tammy?

          How many female lumberjacks do you know? How many lumberjacks do you know?

          How many female steel workers do you know? How many steel workers do you know?

          Have you ever worked as a construction worker? Have you ever worked on a drilling rig? Have you ever cut timber?

          How many times have you operated a chainsaw in your life? How many times have you welded metal? What amount of weight do you think you could lift above your head? How many feet of 2″ copper wire do you think you could pull through a conduit?

        3. Seems a woman could do most of those jobs IF she strengthened herself to do them which would involve weight lifting and such. There are women in many professions that used to be considered male only. A woman would probably make a great mechanic for instance, but usually won’t go into that kind of work because it involves getting our hands dirty and greasy and I for one would hate that. But there are plenty of women in police work and doctors and lawyers.

        4. @ Elijah Craig

          Regarding how much weight a female can lift over her head: as a high school cheer leader, I regularly lifted a fellow team mate over my head BY MYSELF as part of our cheer routine. She weighed between 125-130 lbs. And I was not doing any weight lifting regimen prior or during this time period.

          In college, I went to the gym and was able to completely max out the weight on the leg press machine and still easily do reps. IIRC, that was around 500 lbs.

          I have used a chainsaw. I hate the fact that it’s loud, but yeah, I get a thrill from the power. 😀 It’s one reason why I prefer power tools (mixer, blender, food processor, etc) in my kitchen. Tell me you’ve hand-whipped a meringue & I’ll be impressed.

          Just because women’s muscles aren’t generally bulky doesn’t mean women aren’t or can’t be strong. Our gender does not prevent us from logging, welding, sawing, digging ditches, laying wire, crime fighting, or being generally heroic AND looking good doing it.

        5. I cant believe I am reading this. I served with women in the army. Women, overall have better success on the firing range than men. My mom was a college professor, but she worked as a butcher in a meat packing plant before she started to college. I was a building materials sales person and I know women that are home builders, framers, roofers, carpenters, and painters. My cousin owns a plumbing business and ironically his wife digs ditches and runs duct work.o Prescribed gender roles are rediculous. Elijah Craig needs to pull his head out of his fred flintstone fundy inbred cousin marrying @$$.

        6. He’s a lumberjack and he’s okay,
          He sleeps all night and he works all day.

          I cut down trees, I skip and jump
          I like to press wild flow’rs
          I put on women’s clothing
          And hang around in bars

      3. I had to search for plays with nearly all female casts at the Christian school I taught at because most high school boys were terrified to be in drama at all. One boy went out for football just for the appearance of it so he could be in plays without all the accusations of being not manly enough. It was pitiful. Most of my really talented male actors transferred out eventually.

        This stereotyping is absurd and damaging on so many levels.

        1. +10. My second son loves drama, has studied dance for 7 years (just got back from competeing in the Worlds!), is a sensitive piano player, and likes to paint and write. In the company of men like this clown, he would have suffered endless insult and denigration. 👿

        2. Always thought it was funny that the male dancers, cheerleaders, actors, etc. were considered effeminate. THEY ARE CONSTANTLY AROUND SOME OF THE MOST IN SHAPE BEAUTIFUL WOMEN OUT THERE. If that’s gay, effeminate,or whatever, then I’m Mickey Mouse.

        3. My high school had a female kicker on the JV football squad. She was always kind of a tomboy. No way could she have been a lineman or a running back but kickers (aren’t supposed) to get hit.

          And, she could kick decently. Not as good as the guy on the varsity squad, but pretty good. Incidentally, the guy on the varsity squad was also a gymnast. He probably would have been made fun of for it but he was the kicker on the football team. And he was stout.

        4. @DerBrater

          My son is a piano player too and I get the blessing of teaching him. He also loves computers.

          He’s my quiet one with a very giving heart.

          I wouldn’t let this MoG near my son.

        5. I am reminded of a story I read once. (I wish I knew where, so I didn’t sound like a Fundy mog making up a good illustration point.)

          A guy’s dad was unsure about his son going to college on a cheerleading scholarship. The boy’s comment was something about using his gymnastic skills and getting to hold pretty girls to pay for school.

          Not a bad gig.

      4. What kind of surprises me about this discussion is what’s being implied. It seems to me the implication is that anything men are, as a group, naturally more gifted at (such as upper body strength activities or spacial thinking) is intrinsically more important or better than the areas woman, as a group, are naturally more gifted in (such as multi-tasking or superior peripheral vision). Therefore to suggest that men might, as a group, make superior football players compared to woman is somehow sexist because it implies a woman can’t do a “superior” or “more important” task. Conversely, to suggest that a man “shouldn’t” be a gymnast is somehow insulting, because it implies the man himself is of less intrisic worth because he’s doing a “woman’s job.”

        This ATTITUDE is what I find sexist and unbibilical, not the suggestion that one gender might be superior at something than another. Only a fool can fail to realize that men and woman are made differently and have different strengths and weaknesses.

        Not one of us has any intrinsic value outside of being image bearers. And since we’ve marred the image of God by sin and cease to glorify Him as our primary goal and concern in life, we’ve all become “worthless” (Rom 3:12) unless we’re renewed by the Holy Spirit to faith in Christ.

        All of us find meaning and value in being faithful in the place we’ve been put, glorifying God with the talents He’s given–many or few, irregardless of how the world values them–and being faithful to the mandates He’s given to us all: for example, to rule over and steward the earth.

        I have a guy who comes to work on my air conditioner once a year. He’s skilled, and he makes a decent living from applying his talents to learn that skill. I have another guy who repaired my leg after an accident. He’s skilled, and he makes a decent living from applying his talents to learn that skill. Their jobs have nothing to do with their worth, and I have equal respect for them. But I sure wouldn’t want them switching places: I’d be permanently hot and disabled. This isn’t a perfect analogy, but I think a lot of gender strife comes from a failure to accept that a person is not valuable to God based on what they produce. God says He has no need of any man, therefore there cannot be any more valuable job in His eyes. We work in His name, not because He needs us, but because He deigns to allow us the priviledge to be part of His kingdom. And as for the Church, we’re told that we all need each other, that God has “arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose;” that the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you.” We spend our time wrangling over who is allowed to be a pastor, as if we were all fundies who think pastors are more valuable and more important than everyone else, when Paul says “On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensible.” My Pastor derives his honor from faithfully standing in the place where God has put him. I am in submission to my Pastor, for the Lord’s sake; not because he’s more valuable or important than me. I derive my honor from serving faithfully in the place where the Lord has put me. Just because the pastorate is closed to me as a profession has absolutely no bearing on my worth or importance either as compared to the pastor or to anyone else. And we’re both just trying to follow Christ, who is honored because he voluntarily took up His work and place and was faithful to it: including forever lowering Himself as the Creator Who took on the weakness and humility of created flesh.

        “Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.” II Tim 2:20-21

  23. This tirade should be regarded as just that — a tirade. Harris has found an issue (one of many, I would suspect) to hang his fundie hat on. What’s more, it’s obvious he’s preaching to the choir. It’s not hard to notice the “hay-mens” from the congregation.

    1. I believe fundamentalism (and their respective Fundy U’s) will see a sharp decline in attendance/enrollment because of social media outlets. This is a perfect example: prior to the internet, probably no one would have heard this guy preach this way outside of those in the actually service; however, this hit local news stations (WRAL in Raleigh) because these idiots just *HAD* to video the service. Like WP said, they’re preaching to the choir – well, not really anymore. Now they’re preaching to everyone because *anyone* can have a cellphone taking in this stuff and putting on the internet for everyone to see.

      1. I agree with your main point, but before the Internet age there were many churches broadcasting their services and/or sermons on radio and TV.

        1. True, but to be able to replay the material over and over again at any point is what helps this stuff spread like wildfire. And it should spread like wildfire. I wish more fundies were less blind and more open to believing their MOGs aren’t as pristine as they are led to believe.

        2. BG,
          the enormous differences between Internet-carried channels of information and older mass media outlets are illustrated by the exponential rates of propagation of the new media. Because each recipient can republish (or pass pointers) with little effort, knowledge of things like this guy’s sermons spreads at an incredible rate. This was first (AFAIK) demonstrated by the propagation of Email viruses in the wild, dubbed by Steve Northcutt os SANS as the “dancing baby phenomenon.” Commercial media from the broadcast and dead tree era didn’t have the ability to make consumers into republishers. Game over, “preacher.”

    2. I am willing to bet that the people saying “Amen” are certain that their children are not gay because they go to the right church with “standards” and “strong preaching.”

      I am willing to bet that quite a few of those parents have no idea what their children are not ever going to tell them until they are safely away, at which point they will cut their parents completely out of their lives.

  24. Have they gone from “pray the gay away” to “beat the gay out of em”?

    Listening to the audio, there was nothing to me that implied that this guy was anything other than serious.

    The evangelical church, as a whole, is in serious need of a reformation in this country.

    1. “Have they gone from “pray the gay away” to “beat the gay out of em”?”

      Well the first method didn’t work so the fundies just go find another Bible verse they can twist to justify their second method. Although the Bible verse is optional.

  25. Growing up I was taught an apology was not an apology until you said “I’m sorry, I was wrong, will you please forgive me?”. The opposite of an apology is what this man says in his retraction. In summary: “I’m sorry you’re such an idiot for wrongly taking out of context and MISUNDERSTANDING my clear verbal supprt of punching and cracking and squashing effeminate or butch children. I don’t forgive you and will preach for another 45 minutes proving how you’re intellectually incapable of understanding me”. Which is what every fundy apology I have EVER heard (albeit rare) ends up being.

    Nice try, Harris. Go back to “time out” until you’re really ready to apologize.

      1. BG – in the fundy tradition I prefer to be called “Doctor”. None of this liberal, left-wing limp wristed “Dr.” stuff. No sir. I earned this honoary degree. :mrgreen:

    3. This sounds exactly like nearly every fundy apology I ever heard. 👿

  26. I totally agree with his position but not necessarily his methodology. Often those who have come out of FundyLand want to “throw the baby out with the bath water”.
    Though the Fundy has added to the Law to the degree of being crippled buy guilt and fear. Let’s not run the other way and be just as guilty. There’s a not-so-fine line between enlightenment and rebellion.

    1. Bibb,

      What activities would you squash in a boy? What things should a girl never be caught doing? I’m not talking about anything sexual here.

      These are cultural mores disguised in religious clothing.

    2. So what “baby” of homophobia ought to be saved and nourished?

      I’m sorry if this sounds rude, but what part of “God is love” don’t you understand?

      2. I don’t think Bibb and I understand the part of “God is love” that allows for the concoction of a word such as “homophobia”. Sorry, Bibb is right. We don’t have to be rude or obnoxious in our condemnation of sin (as we’ve all been partakers of our own), but “homophobia” is as valid a word as “theftophobia” or “covetousness-phobia.” There are some clearly Christian beliefs, and the condemnation of homosexuality is one of them.

        1. Show me where, preferably with reference to the original text in the original language.

        2. So you think it’s godly to break someone’s wrist because, based on cultural stereotypes, their behavior indicates that they might possibly want to covet at sometime in the future?

        3. Why is it no other sin seems to rise to the level of this one. If you are gay, it seems that you should be ostracized and denied the same rights and freedoms as others. Can anyone name another sin, that is legal in the eyes of the law, that gets someone the same treatment as this one.

        4. That’sWhatItSays, I suppose there is no point in debating with you whether or not homosexuality is a sin, so I’ll just say this:
          Homosexuality is not caused by boys wearing dresses or having “limp wrists,” or by girls wearing trousers or playing sports. Abusing children for that kind of thing is not going to change their sexual orientation.

        5. I’ll agree with Big Gary…

          I was raised in a somewhat redneck blue collar environment where the default response to homosexuality is to physically attack. You know what?

          IT DOESN’T WORK.

          And if you study male homosexuality at all, outside of genetic influence, an absent or abusive father is the #1 environmental factor. So beating your son for not being “man” enough isn’t really the right way to go at all.

          Even if he’s “saved” from being gay he’s probably going to grow up to be a jackass who goes about proving his masculinity by screwing as many women as he can, bullying smaller men, etc…

          It is not the right answer.

        6. I should add that other problems (not homosexuality) are caused by physical abuse of children, such as “cracking the wrist” of a 4-year-old, or “giving him a good punch.”

        7. I am wondering if the term “Homophobia” has been redefined – as ANY action/opinion/comment that even implies critisism of homosexuals and the Gay Lifestyle, (WHATever form that may take) or is NOT 100% Gay-Affirming.

        8. Maybe what’s needed is for more preachers to promote beating up those, including preachers, who engage in theftophilia and covetophilia, among other things.

    3. You agree with him? Do you understand that behavior does not in any way predict sexuality? I was a straight-up tom boy as a child and even through my teen years. I played cowboys, I played cops-n-robbers, I played with toy cars and largely eschewed dolls. As a teen, I wanted nothing to do with babies, and I spent hours helping my dad around the house or with the cars.

      And I’m straight.

      Thank goodness my parents didn’t have some stupid, hare-brained idea to beat or harass me just because I would rather climb trees then have tea parties. *rolls eyes*

      1. @persnickety, excellent point. My daughters, both in their 20’s, helped me work on the cars since yhey were small. One helped rebuild a truck engine. The both fired my firearms, climbed numerous trees (once we had to use the truck to spread branches when the older one got wedged), helped me build a 1200 foot garage, and they both helped with home maintenance. My son did those things, as well as music lessons like the girls.

        They (the girls)are very ladylike, but can “handle a wrench” if needed. The boy is an 18 year old football player and part time construction worker/home repairer. All straight. This guy is an idiot for thinking the way he does.

        And they gay people and family members we know have never tried to “turn” any of us, either. (as a side note)

    4. I’m a father with 3 children. There is a constant attack from this world on young boys and girls to justify any sin. This has nothing to do with me being unable to accept what God’s love is. It’s our job as parents not to shelter our children but to teach and correct. Children do not have a mature mind because they are not yet fully developed.
      The only arguments I’m hearing to my statement are one stating that I need to excuse and condone what God clearly says to be sin.

      1. So, you’re missing the ones that say, “Effeminate or butch behavior in a child are not a predictor of homosexuality in adults”? Or maybe the ones that say, “Beating effeminate/butch-acting children in order to ‘nip gayness in the bud’ is not effective”?

        Maybe you’d better go back and read a few of the arguments, then, because I don’t see that any of the ones I just mentioned condone sin of any sort.

  27. This guy is nauseating and per his “sermon” and “retraction” I pronounce him utterly full of shit!! As far as his robotic method of talking, he sounds exactly like one of the pastors at my former fundy church who is no longer there, utterly cocky and like a politition choosing his words carefully just like most liars when caught while trying to seem sincere. Of course during the “sermon” he was yelling like a condescending tyrant. I’m so glad I am out. How he can get up and deny that he said what he said and meant what he meant when it is all there for the world to hear is beyond gall. 🙄 🙄 🙄

  28. Sorry, I’m not buying the “I was using hyperbole” thing. Hyperbole is OBVIOUS exaggeration. Jesus wasn’t screaming in anger when he said, “If your right hand offends you, cut it off.” Jesus obviously didn’t mean it literally. When Sean Harris screamed those things it didn’t sound like obvious exaggeration to me. It sounded like he meant that we should beat the gay out our boys and stress the importance of being attractive to our girls. The first part of his written retraction had a “well, if I have to say this…” tone about it.

  29. He has no remorse or care for what he said, and what he said was a load of horse hockey. I just cannot understand why people would sit under the teaching of such a graceless, ignorant man.

    1. First of all, you have an awesome name. Secondly, to answer your question as to why people sit under such teaching; fear and/or guilt. It’s a powerful tool of control.

  30. Cripes, nobody knows how to make an apology any more.

    This is not an apology:
    I’m sorry you were offended by what I said, even though what I said was true and I meant it, and your being offended shows that you are too dumb to understand what I said.

    This is an apology:
    I’m sorry I said what I said. I was in error, and I no longer believe what I said. Please forgive me.

    This is not a retraction:
    I didn’t say what I was recorded on video saying, and if you think I said that, your taking my words out of context and twisting them.

    This is a retraction:
    What I said in that sermon was completely wrong. Now that I’ve had my medication adjusted, I hope you’ll give me another chance to engage in dialog.

  31. when I was a little girl, I constantly role-played as male figures. I went for 4 months straight wearing the same cowboy outfit EVERY DAY (hat, boots, jean shorts (knee length of course), and bandana. And I called myself a cowboy, not a cowgirl. Now I’m married and perfectly normal . . .but I’m fairly sure that if my parents had reacted in the way that this imbecile suggests, I would have carried some serious issues into adulthood. I think a large percentage of what Freud said was hokey, but children DO pass through several stages on their way to “normal” heterosexuality. This has been confirmed by simple observation and research.
    Oops, I forgot-Freud was a puppet of Satan. In fact, I was always taught that “Darwin, Marx and Freud” ruined the 20th century all by themselves. This teaching was frequently accompanied by particularly unflattering, grainy portraits of said individuals displayed on a powerpoint slideshow, along with a few quotes twisted out of context. In church (usually the evening services, where the pastor felt more “liberty to preach” because no one but the most thoroughly brainwashed were in attendance. You can’t make this stuff up!

    1. Yes and I, as a little boy, used to where a wig and pretend to be a girl I was friends with along with different cartoon characters. My father didn’t beat this out of me. They shrugged it off as a kid playing. Amazingly, once I hit about 12, I suddenly thought girls were the greatest thing ever, and my life has been a mess ever since! I didn’t need any help.

    1. ^^^^^^
      This. Your comment, PS, actually gave me a little bit of a breakthrough today as how to treat and acceptance of the LGBT community is often in my thoughts. Thank you.

    2. I, too, tend to think that that’s about all there is to it.

      Are the gay man and the lesbian my neighbors? Yes.
      Am I commanded to love my neighbors? Yes.
      That about covers it.

    3. You know, the biggest reason for homelessness among teenagers is being perceived as gay.

      Their loving Christian families did the Christian thing and kicked them out of the house when they came out, OR when their families decided (correctly or incorrectly) to declare them gay.

    4. My Fundy baggage caused me a lot of grief until I finally figured this out. I really had a lot of trouble reconciling an actual like of the gay people I had met and worked with with what “God said”. Then I realized from true study what He actually said.

  33. I think he’s sorry about the consequences of his hate-filled speech. I think he honestly believes he isn’t advocating “abuse,” because in the fundy mind, abuse is when an individual loses control and strikes out in anger. If, say, a dad calmly explains to his son, “We don’t wear dresses.” and little Johnny wants to put on a princess dress anyway, the dad may calmly strike little Johnny in the name of “Christian discipline.”

  34. This guy was not sorry. Did you hear the conviction in his voice as he said “Give him a good punch” and the crowd laughs. Oh, yeah, that’s real funny. Punching your son is the best way to develop Godly character and the fruit of the Spirit.

  35. I was amazed that he brought up gospel of Jesus a couple times… especially when he talked about it being the only thing that has the power to change and transform people. They like to say they believe that, they just don’t preach it or live it very often…

  36. Darell,
    This was an excellent post to follow up from the email from “None of your business”. For None and people like him, still fundies & especially for people who are realizing fundyland isn’t quite “right”, this is why this blog is a safe haven. Because I’m guessing most, if not all, of us here have directly felt the affect of the men at the head of the fundy helms of the churches we attended & were deeply hurt. Pastors preach shoot-their-mouth-off-NO-biblical-base sermons such as these & then rails about us being “disgruntled” after we’ve been chewed up & spit out and are done with fundamentalism.
    Jesus said the words we speak have the power to heal & the power to destroy… and consistently in fundamentalist churches, destruction is preached. This is why I return to this blog time & again, because I can share how fundymentalism affected my life & I can laugh at things I formerly was NEVER allowed to question.
    Fundies may brush this off as “he was only kidding”, but I assure you, to the kids being bullied, punched and mocked- they DO NOT find this funny, humorous or laugh-worthy. My little brother was brutally bullied, mocked & called “fag” constantly because he was quiet, sensitive, compassionate & caring and chose to pursue the piano instead of play on the basketball team. He did eventually join the team in hopes to alleviate the bullying, but rather than being helped or encouraged, he was again bullied and called “fag” because he wasn’t coordinated enough. He ran away when he was 15 & I’ve seen him only a few times in the last 10 years. He is now the most emotionally closed-off, dark & hurt person I believe I’ve ever known. A shadow of the loving boy he was before fundamentalism.
    So, lest you think these kinds of “sermons” are harmless… I assure you, they are not. The wreckage is always evident & the pastors try to cover it up/not take responsibility by saying people are “disgruntled” or kids were “rebellious” or a “bad seed”. I take comfort in the fact that someday, all the lives they were held accountable for will be recounted & there will be no pulpit, fake doctorate or “anointed leadership position” to hide behind.

    1. EliACas,
      My gosh, your comment had me in tears for quite a few minutes. The same thing happened to my brother, and while I have my own pain over not having much of a relationship with him, I feel even more deeply for him when I contemplate how he must have felt when he was young. I wish I had something profound or helpful to say, but I don’t — I can only tell you that you, your family, and your brother will be in my thoughts or prayers.

      To everyone else on here who recommended the book “The Subtle Power Of Spiritual Abuse,” I’m happy to say that the library called today and it’s ready for me to pick up. I’m looking forward to it and am grateful that so many of you have shared what helped you.

      1. Paisley, thank you so much for your kind words & the recommendation of that book! I couldn’t find it in our counties libraries but will try others.
        I am so sorry for your brother & what you experienced seeing it then and experience now from the trauma. I will definitely be praying for you two as well & sO appreciate your prayers for my family! My parents, older brother and 2 little sisters are still in fundyland. So, they need your prayers and I couldn’t be more grateful! When I Googled the book title I came across this website which I found immensely insightful & healing. The writers of this website are UPC survivors- another fundamentalist cult.

        http://www.spiritualabuse.org/articles.html

        1. Thank you for the recommendation, and I hope that you can locate the book. You have found a friend, and I’m grateful for your prayers, as well.

  37. Just a note. This guy talks like a fundie, but the church is by no means in the fundie circles. In fact, I still remember when my fundie church broke fellowship with Berean b/c of CCM, Bible versions, blah, blah.

  38. As previously stated, that apology was a bunch of crap. It sounded like he was irritated and angry to have to write and read a retraction for what he said. He was clearly playing to the crowd in his sermon, saying things that would get an amen. How far have we come when the thought of beating your child because he isn’t acting as manly as you think he should act earns the preacher a big “Hay-men!”? That, to me, is just sad.
    It seems May 4 is a banner day for birthdays, since it is my birthday today as well. 😀

  39. Okay, everyone, the virtual candles are on the virtual cake and all together on three… one, two, three: HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU, HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU, HAPPY BIRTHDAY DEAR TIKATU, INFUNDYREHAB, AND FORMERHACGIRL, HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!!! 😀 😀 😀 and many more… God bless you and enjoy your day.

    1. Me! Virtual cake would be guilt-free (and we’ve all already had our share of guilt, haymen?)!

      1. Now that is something I can “Hay-men”! And the white hanky is waving, just so you know. 😀

    1. They removed the part of the “sermon” posted here, no doubt maybe there will be some sort of “copyright infringement” issue here soon also…

  42. Until I listened to the items here, I have never heard about this situation.

    In the original clip, I didn’t understand him to be advocating child abuse. I took the “squash like a cockroach” to be expressive of “don’t let your boy continue to be effeminate” or your girl to be masculine (butch). I took the reference to punching to be the kind of boxing that I’ve seen fathers do with their sons in old TV and movies and in real life.

    Growing up as a puny, more sensitive child, I’m thankful my father was not of the type to box with us. I’m repulsed by fathers who think only a boy who fights with his fists is “manly”. I’ve heard Christian fathers say to me that they are secretly proud when their sons get in trouble for fighting at school: “At least I know he’s not a sissy”. I thought such at attitude was pretty bad; I’ve wanted to say “So, you’re OK with him being a bully and/or sadist?”

    Anyway… in the posted original clip, he did not say to “beat the gay out” of children. I heard no advocate of child abuse… closest to it was the “cracking the wrist” comment, which was ill-advised, but common. When I was a kid, if I started biting my nails or sucking my thumb, my dad would slap my wrist (for the biting nails) or pull on my arm to yank the thumb out of my mouth. I didn’t see the “crack the wrist” as much different than it, but in this paranoid day & time, I could see how it could be taken another way.

    I gather that the LGBT community had a field day, and I’ve no doubt that what he said was exaggerated and distorted with the retelling, so he was forced to issue the “retraction”. I listened to the whole thing.

    I don’t know if he was sincere or not; I prefer to assume that the “retraction” was sincere… I did detest what has become standard these days “if I offended anyone” – for crying out loud, if you didn’t offend anyone, why are you apologizing?!?!?

    I did NOT think it was equivalent to Jesus’ statement about cutting off one’s foot or hand. The congregation was laughing at the ‘dig a ditch’, so they didn’t think he was entirely serious. In his statement, he seemed to directly contradict some of the things he said in the clip from the message.

    I was surprised to hear him quoting from a non-KJV Bible, so he apparently isn’t as fundy as some others.

    1. “….he did not say to “beat the gay out” of children. I heard no advocate of child abuse… closest to it was the “cracking the wrist” comment..”

      GR – I listened again. Right after the crack the wrist comment, at the 1:00 minute mark he says “give a good punch”. I put forward that punching a 4 year ago (a good punch no less) is child abuse.

      1. I thought the “good punch” was more along the lines of “boxing” that dads used to do with their young kids… it came right after he was talking about a four-year-old, but my impression was that he had passed on and was talking about boys in general.

        It’s hard to tell, and COULD be taken as advocating punching a four-year-old, which is certainly wrong.

    2. He mentioned punching a four-year-old child! That’s not just cracking a wrist. That’s child abuse.

      As to masculine/feminine behavior, those are cultural/societal distinctions and have nothing to do with innate sexuality.

      But I’ll agree with you on the “If I offended anyone” apologies. They strike me as insincere. You obviously offended someone. So either apologize or don’t.

      1. See above; it could be taken that way… I thought he was talking about the mock- or psuedo-boxing that I see so many fathers carry on with their kids.

        1. “Give him a good punch” to me, means, give him a good punch. He wasn’t smiling when he said it. He was yelling. I believe he meant exactly what he said.

        2. Guilt ridden, you just sound fucking retarded and want to defend the indefensible.

        3. There is no way anybody ever yells angrily while talking about games parents play with their children. There is no way this sermon could honestly be taken to mean that.

          But a fundy will only ever hear what a fundy wants to hear.

    3. I’m with you guilt ridden. I think the whole thing was an unfortunate use of words but not intentionally offensive. What people tend to often forget is that communication is based significantly on the audience. This preacher knows his church and how they will understand and respond to him. In his retraction his word choice, tone, and speed change significantly when he transitions between talking to the the internet and talking to his people. Granted, he shouldn’t have stated things in that way, but I don’t think he’s the devil. Words tend to have certain connotations in specific groups of people. We outsiders need to remember that we’re hearing his words through our filters, not his intended audiences filters.

  43. Really?? There is NO NEED to exagerate what this idiot said, squash, punch, crack, and the way he said it? Wow, you really got to have some denial going on to believe what you hear isn’t what you hear in both the “sermon” and the “retraction”. 🙁

  44. Part of me would like to say “Let’s wait and see if his behavior changes. Maybe he was sincere. Maybe he realizes what he said actually was wrong.” The other part of me says “I believe this guy about as much as I believe I’ll actually be a size 0 in 2 weeks (I’m a 6 now), and the world is flat, and that a donkey actually will win the Kentucky Derby.”

  45. What I found utterly ridiculous was Harris’ silly, stereotyped view of boys and girls. Like they should each fit into exactly one personality type each or risk being labeled homosexual. Its the stupidest thing in the world, and yes very homophobic (that’s not a word I throw around like so many other people do).

    Want to encourage your son to be a proper, godly man? Make sure that he has real godly men to follow as examples, not stupid, testosterone-driven stereotypes. Want to encourage your daughter to be a proper, godly woman? Make sure that she has real godly women to follow as examples as well, not useless, weak, showy stereotypes. And realize that all children will have different personalities. Boys that tend to be quieter and more sensitive are not “acting like girls” and girls that tend to be more loud and outgoing (and maybe DON’T like to dress up) are not “acting like boys.”

    1. +1
      For the record, a proper, Godly man is one who faithfully fulfills his vocation as a believer, a civic man, a husband, and a father (should the Lord bless). Not the angle at which he holds his hand.

  46. At about the 4 minute mark he begins to claim that he’s a victim. By the way, apologizing by saying, “I’m sorry if I offended you” isn’t an apology. “I’m sorry you were right to be offended” is an apology.

    By the way, how can a 4 year old act gay? Do they have a sex drive toward the same sex? Perhaps he’s just talking about stereotypes he doesn’t like.

  47. A classmate of mine commented that this dude was his 1st Sergeant back when he was at Ft. Bragg. His words, and I quote, were “this is a strange and scary world.” 🙄

  48. What I have a problem with, is that I hear preachers go on and on about the bad influences of violent movies, rap music, etc. have on young people. They demand censorship. Yet, heaven forbid any one censor the violent speech that comes from their pulpits, books (on “child discipline”) and what not! 🙄

  49. By now, somebody surely has a betting pool on when Pastor Sean Harris is going to be outed as gay himself.

    Personally, I’m not prepared to bet on a particular date, but I do suspect it’s more a question of “when” than of “if.”

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