Preachers, Standards

Whining About “Wine”

192 Comments

It’s been a while since we saw anything from David Grice so here we go…

The combination of false statements and circular reasoning is just astounding.

“We know that Jesus made fresh grape juice because that’s what we use in the Lord’s Supper and we use it in the Lord’s supper because…that’s what Jesus made?” QED.

192 thoughts on “Whining About “Wine””

        1. Kidding… yours in on special order. I’m still working on Don’s. The plans he drew up were 8 pages complete with robotic technology and some sort of whoopie cushion thing that he claims to have a patent for.

          This is going to take a while.

  3. I am curious if the opening on that reminded anybody else of a Saturday Night live skit?

  4. I enjoy watching the show “Lie to Me” and the premise of the show (reading people’s facial expressions to determine if they are being truthful)is based on real science. I am by no means a professional at reading faces, but I do enjoy studying it and am becoming pretty good at it. The expressions on his face throughout this video clip suggest to me that either he KNOWS he is lying OR that he does not even fully believe what he is saying.

  5. Oh, hell…

    “This is a King James moment…”… Great so we’re all going to don on old English attire and burn witches out back.

    I love how he just makes up his own interpretation based on what he “thinks”. Blasphemous?…. Really?

    And, we went from talking about wine to defending the KJV in 1.5 seconds!… As if that stack of them to the left wasn’t enough. πŸ™„

    1. What must the Lord think of that stack of KJV’s over there? Perhaps that this bozo and others of his ilk are committing idolatry over a translation? πŸ™„

      1. The bookshelf on the right is sagging. Must be some HEAVY theology in those books. Oh and I got distracted from what he was saying… blah blah blah.

  6. I wonder if he would like a nice Cheddar or Kraft American Singles to accompany his rant. I wouldn’t even suggest any foreign cheeses like brie or Stilton.

    1. I don’t think his whine rises above the quality of Velveeta or maybe aerosol cheese.

        1. I’m not sure I want to see this guy drunk. I just have this feeling that he’d come on to every guy in the room… and I pity the guys.

  8. “It is a common thing for people to go to weddings and drink or even, most of the time, get drunk, I guess…”

    NO. A vast majority of people who drink do not get “drunk.”

    I object strenuously to describe negatively the role of Jesus as bartender. Bartenders as well as barbers serve as counselors and do much good.

    The LOrd is my bartender.

    1. The LORD is my bartender; I shall not thirst.

      I’m sure it’s in there somewhere. πŸ˜‰ FWIW, though, you’re right – just because you go to a wedding and have some wine doesn’t mean you’re automatically drunk. And I love the “I guess,” like he’s never really been to one of “those kinds” of weddings (which is believable) nor does he know anyone who’s been to “those kinds” of weddings (little less believable) nor has he ever heard of a wedding with alcohol that didn’t turn into a drunken orgy (kinda hard to believe). But then as insulated as these people are maybe it’s not so hard to believe after all…

  9. Did he really just say that the King James Bible protects Jesus’ reputation? Without the King James who would know what to think about Jesus? Ridiculous!

  10. David Grice makes me chuckle and sometimes roll my eyes… and sometimes both.

    He just seems to think he’s got it all understood, and he’s just descended from his ivory palace to enlighten us all.

    And, in reality, he’s just doing the same crap the rest of them do. They read a verse (KJV only, of course)… use Scofield’s or Strong’s reference to cross-reference, find a verse that they’ve decided backs up previous verse, think about how it suits what they are prejudice to believe based on what they’ve been taught by their pastor, college professor, etc. and then make it all fit and proclaim it as “God’s Message”.

    The mind is shut to any other ways of thinking or means of study outside the bubble of Fundyland, so they beat the same fundy dogma over and over, but give them new approaches.

    1. YES! What I always found confusing was how they proclaimed that their version was fully inspired and then the first thing they EVER did was say, “Now what this word REALLY means is…” Like when God re-inspired it He couldn’t have said what He really meant! If he REALLY meant to say “Grape juice” or “Unfermented wine” He really could have changed it when he had his good man King Jimmy print it up.

  11. “The Bible has nothing but negative things to say about alcoholic wine…”

    Really? How about that it “gladden[s] the heart of man” in Psalms and “use a little wine for the sake of your stomach” in 1 Timothy? How are we supposed to believe these people’s obsession with a particular version of the Bible when they don’t know what it says in any version??

    5. If the Bible never has anything good to say about alcohol, then should we remove Isaiah 25:6? “6And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.” (KJV) lees in the old English (KJV era) is defined as sediment left behind from wine making and it would seem as if this wine is not only on the sediment, but is well refined. Refined in the old English means cultivated or distilled. Therefore it would seem that Isaiah 25:6 is talking about alcoholic wine. . . That we will be drinking in Heaven. . . That is made by God. Sounds blasphemous.

  13. Acts 2:13-15: Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

    David do you eeven bother to read your bible in context? If “new” wine is non-alcoholic then why was it assumed that the disciples of Jesus were drunk on the day of Pentecost? A King James moment indeed!

    This is why the IFB is an Acts 4:13a Cult.

    1. “David do you eeven bother to read your bible in context?”

      Geez, Don, you ask so much of the guy. πŸ˜‰

        1. … only by the most liberal stretch of the imagination.
          I don’t know the man personally but of the videos I have seen of his teaching I see tons of tripe, and IFB legalism and Doctrine of Fundie Standards.

          In the above video there is the Doctrine of Prohibition showing the spirit of Billy Sunday is alive and well in the Baptist Distinctives even today.

          It takes a lie in order to make the Bible say what the Baptist Prohibitionists say it says. If their personal conviction is teatotalism… fine! So be it. But to declare that scripture says something it does not, is lies at best and heretical additions to scripture at worst.

    2. I thought “new wine” was just wine of this year’s vintage, not the unfermented juice. It’s light, fizzy, not very alcoholic, and still fermenting—producing gasses which expand in its container–which is why it will burst old wineskins.

    3. I’ve heard some that say that these men were sarcastically mocking the disciples by saying something like “They’ve gotten drunk on Welch’s.”

    1. Amen, Don. For years, I thought these fundy so-called leaders were perhaps just stupid. I now believe they are liars, that they know they are lying, that they have little to no fear of misleading and abusing God’s own dear flock, and that they have no love or, or fear of, God. Also, at a quick glance before I played the video, I thought this was a younger Jim Vineyard, which made me ill. πŸ‘Ώ

      1. Ah, Seen Enough, they do resemble each other now that you mention it. Jim Vineyard was one of the WORST parts of my fundy college days. Thank you for reminding me.

        1. Sorry! That oaf, when he did Church Ed, back when we girls still had to take a semester of it… His racist jokes, his mockery of his family, his general boorishness… Than You, Jesus, for deliverance!

        3. Seen enough, what years were you there? I was there from the second year at the “monastary” until after JV left. He was thoroughly AWFUL! I think that might be where Jack Schaap got his, “Ain’t no stinkin’ woman gonna tell ME what to do…” He was there then too.

        4. Two stints so help me, from 1976 to 1980. Then again, from 1984 to 1986. I am nearly certain you and I were BC bus riders together, if I am right I knew both you and your husband, and I even remember your sister.

        5. I don’t know how to send you a private message, but I would really like to know who you are. How do you think we could do that without putting e-mail addresses, etc here in public?

        7. Sims, I just got up, saw this, and looked up who I THINK you are, on Facebook, and there you are! (I hope!) I am sending you a FB friend request, so do not be alarmed! πŸ˜‰ if I am wrong, this poor person will think I am a stalker!

        9. Not only that, pastor’s wife, but I cannot type until I down half a pot of Kroger Breakfast Blend. 😳

        10. The way you typed it (pastoeswife) kindof makes me think of a combination of pasta and potatoes. Makes me a little hungry for gnocci.

    2. Good for you Don for calling this guy out. For years I have watched abusive “pastors” exaggerate, mislead, and otherwise lie to their congregations over just about anything and everything if it meant backing up their end point. God is not a liar. God is truth. These men make a mockery of God and if you call them on it they claim that you are bitter, or divisional, etc. They will take a break from their hate-fueled fundyism just long enough to throw verses at you about loving your brother (them) right before they continue spewing their bile at everyone else. Jesus said teachers should be judged (Matt 7). His brother said they should be judged twice as hard (James), John told the church to judge the teachers (1,2,3 John), and Paul said they should cut their nuts off (Gal) It’s time we start following these commands and boot out these false teachers. I know that sounds a bit fundy itself, but the flock has been abused enough.

      1. Well said, pastor mike! You have described every fundy pastor I have ever known, and I use the term “pastor” loosely.

    3. All IFB pastors say the same lies. Thanks for saying it straight, Don.

  16. Can I ask an OT question?… I’m going to anyway.

    It’s 9:55 AM Sunday morning according to my computer… why aren’t you present-commenting heathens in Sunday School?

    (nevermind about me :wink:)

        1. It was clicking so I think it’s the battery. One of the kids could’ve left a light on or a door unlatched.

      2. Or is the battery dead because you forgot to turn the lights off after you got back from the bar last night? J/K

    4. Now that I understand the concept of liberty in Christ , I no longer answer those questions, she replies pompously. πŸ˜‰

        2. No, really, Used to be, I found myself suspicious of that bacon, also. Can believers eat pork?? πŸ˜‰

    8. I told an old timer from our church a few days ago that I don’t go to Sunday school because I don’t like to get up early and he so typically replied, “you should get up for the Lord” with the usual self-righteousness of a good fundy. It made me nauseous, someone help me with a ready reply next time someone tells me I “should just do something for the Lord” usually meaning “toe the line” (that was for you Don}. πŸ™‚

  17. I plan on breaking this command tonight. . . .

    I am going to a “Farmers Dinner” where we will partake of numerous local ales and wines.

    1. In all seriousness, though… I think he’s forgetting that people in the 1600s read English differently than we do nowadays. So if the KJV says something like “they have well drunk” at the wedding, as this guy mentioned in the video, it doesn’t necessarily mean what he said it means. More than likely, it means they have merely drunk a lot of wine (as the so-called Bible “perversions” said).

  20. As I sipped my grape juice in church this morning, I was struck by the fact that what we use to represent Christ’s blood is irrelevant. It’s Christ’s blood that we are supposed to be thinking about. Whether I’m having grape juice or my neighbor is sipping wine, we are both remembering Christ’s blood. Ergo, this is something that should be promoting unity within the body of Christ, rather than separation.

  21. Talking about what to do with your tithe if you can’t make it to Jerusalem…

    And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, (Deuteronomy 14:26 KJV)

    So if I’m providentially hindered, can I buy me some liquid devil???

    1. Correction: not Jerusalem…the tabernacle
      I got so excited that I didn’t think before posting. Old fundy habits die hard πŸ™‚

    2. Yes, God commanded the Hebrews to take a tithe and buy liquor with it. For all the religious liars who try to take alcohol out of the Bible, God is careful to throw “strong drink” in there – which is better translated beer (literally, the word refers to barley beer). I do hope Grice and his ilk realize that in their piety they are accusing God of sin. Pretty damning stuff.

    3. Wow-that makes me want to accidentally-on-purpose providentially hindered from making it to the tabernacle!

  22. I recently convinced my family to leave our old fundy church (im almost 15 and it was physically sickening me) do to it’s hypocrisy and legalism, and we are currently searching for a church. We are visiting a great church now which is still IB, but without the stupid music (their worship style is CCM)and dress requirements. My only hang up on it is that they are hard core kjv only. What do y’all think? (sorry that that is kind of an ambiguous question)

    1. Keep looking. If you are making the move, make it worthwhile. KJV onlyism is still the mark of a kind of narrowmindedness and ignorance that you could do without.

    2. KJVO is a reason to instantly reject a church. It is a huge biblical error.

      It is perfectly okay for someone to prefer to use the King James, but it is sin for them to consider all other versions “perversions” and to refuse to associate with any church that is not KJVO. Attributing the word of God to Satan is wicked, and this belief places a church outside of Christian orthodoxy.

      1. Disagree.

        if they are Ruckman then yes, but many churches stick with the the KJV an dare KJV “Only” for tother reasosn, such as uniformity, beauty, conservative view of textual criticism etc.

        Thats a rather harsh view to jusge a church on one issue. If so, the standard would apply to all other issues and no church–fundy or not–is perfect.

        1. You may disagree, but it’s not harsh at all. Any church that rejects any modern translations of the better greek texts is not a good church.

        2. Why is believing what Ruckman says a sin, but being KJVO isn’t? I don’t think either of them are sins, I just don’t care for them. The sin is the pride that follows those beliefs.

    3. KJV-Onlyism is nothing less than Idolatry.

      If, the written word, such as the King James English Translation, is referred to as the “living word” then you also have Blasphemy. The Living Word is Jesus Christ the Son of God. The King James translation is just that, an English translation of Scripture.

      It’s done all the time and the sheeple accept such blasphemy and idolarty as righteous truth.

      1. With the degree of scholarship and the availability of core Biblical language resources that there is today, there is absolutely NO reason for a church to still reject modern Bible scholarship and versions.

        If they stick to the KJV because of its “superiority,” get out of that church! The KJV has many translation errors that have been fixed in modern versions.

        If they stick to the KJV as to not offend the folks that still use it, get out of that church! They want to please the crazy.

        Some churches use the KJV for copyright issues or plain familiarity, though.

  23. The new versions have it right. After everyone had drunk to the point of intoxication and the wine had run out, Jesus made more wine. Apparently Jesus would have made a very poor fundy. John the Baptist I think would potentially have made a better fundy. Maybe they should just follow him. They already have the Baptist part down.

    I don’t think John’s point is not whether or not one should drink wine. Of course people drank wine. To abstain was the exception and to drink it was the rule. IMO, John’s point is theological as the coming of the kingdom was associated with an abundance of wine: “wine on the lees”, strong wine. Lots of wine meant good crops and freedom from ravishing armies. Lots of wine equals prosperity and peace equals the presence of God’s reign. For fundys, lots of wine equals the presence of the devil. So ignorant.

    As someone noted above, wine makes one’s heart merry according to scripture. Don’t know about you, but Welches never really did that for me. A few glasses of the real thing however makes me a believer in that text.

    1. Grice is also failing to realize that fermentation was one of the few ways of preserving the grape juice.

      They didn’t have any refrigerators or ice houses in turn-of-the-era Palestine.

      They also had poorer quality water supplies. The alcohol was more likely safe to drink than many water supplies.

      Third, alcoholic drinks have high caloric content, which would be vital to survival in the normal feast -and-famine cycle of food supplies in the ancient world.

      But, you know, Jesus cared more about whether you drank than whether you survived.

      1. Forget preserving grape juice, you can’t even make unfermented grape juice without machinery (Just ask the good prohibitionist Tom Welch) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bramwell_Welch

        Why does “New Wine” burst old skins? Fermentation! There was no such thing as non-alcoholic grape juice until the late 1800’s. I’m sure some fundy may argue that if you press a grape right off the vine, it would be non-alcoholic. But, you would have to drink it immediately before it spoiled or fermented, and you could only drink it at the end of summer when grapes are harvested, leaving you without this Jewish staple for 10-11 months a year. By the way, when was the Last Supper? Spring you say? I guess it would have been impossible for them to have grape juice that wasn’t alcohol.

      2. That’s what I’ve always thought about the “MUST TAKE WINE OUT OF THE BIBLE” types. Of course that’s what they drank back then, what else were they going to drink, polluted water? Even when they did drink water, often a small amount of wine was mixed in, a practice that really only stopped in… what, the 1700s? At the very least, sailors quite commonly did that to stretch out their fresh water supplies.

        (of course, as a lot of people have pointed out, their wine wasn’t as strong as the stuff we have today, because they generally didn’t give it as long to ferment, seeing as they regularly drank the stuff! On the other hand, it was definitely still alcoholic.)

    2. I thought your point about John the Baptist was interesting, because the Pharisees refused both John AND Christ. Jesus said in Mt. 11, “To what can I compare this generation? It is like children playing a game in the public square. They complain to their friends, β€˜We played wedding songs, and you didn’t dance, so we played funeral songs, and you didn’t mourn.’ For John didn’t spend his time eating and drinking, and you say, β€˜He’s possessed by a demon.’ The Son of Man, on the other hand, feasts and drinks, and you say, β€˜He’s a glutton and a drunkard, and a friend of tax collectors and other sinners!’ . . . O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike.”

      1. Exactly. A good fundy would be a poor target for accusations of being a drinker like Jesus, but would fit right in with being an abstainer like John the Baptist. It does fall apart some with gluttony though judging by Brice.

        My point really is that John was an ascetic where Jesus was not. Most fundys have an ascetic bent (again, except in thie case of gluttony judging by Brice. Too bad for him the KJV kept that word. I won’t expect a KJV moment on that topic though).

    3. If you think about it, the response from the wedding party people is pretty on line with what some bartenders do these days. Give out the really good stuff the first couple rounds and then shift to well drinks! πŸ™‚ I would imagine people doing that way back in the day to save money too!

  24. See, now you got me watching these “King James Moment” videos! Good grief, and I thought the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society mishandled the translation question! πŸ˜•

  25. I remember asking my Baptist Pastor wife grandma about Jesus turning the water into wine, and being told it was like grape juice. They called it wine, but it really wasn’t. Imagine my surprise when I figures out it really was wine! I got a good laugh out of it.

    Just a little bit of church history, Welchs Grape Juice was invented by Dr. Welch, who was Methodist. He saw people who were turning their life around, then come to church, take communion, and fall off the wagon.

    It was originally called Welchs Unfirmented Communion Wine.

      2. Supernova is correct. Fall off the wagon just means for an alcoholic who has gotten sober to have relapsed & started drinking.

  26. Because my father was an alcoholic and my mother was a fundy, there was a lot of ambiguity on this subject for me growing up. I heard all the sermons and saw first hand how an abuse of alcohol could damage a person and all those who loved him. However I have to agree with the commenters here and admit that the the fundamentalists are not in agreement with the Scriptures on this subject. And since it looks as if nobody has yet gone there yet on this thread, just as an abuse of alcohol is warned against in the Bible, so is gluttony. David Grice and others can feel really good about themselves that they don’t ever drink alcohol, but it is much more difficult to draw the line when it comes to pleasure-eating.

    1. I’m grateful for this site for posts just like this one. It took me a VERY long time to forget things like this – things like David Grice and other fundamentalists have said about alcohol. The stigma about it, the hatred fundamentalists show towards people who simply have a glass a wine.

      I heard the whole “wine wasn’t really wine back then” speech over and over again.

      When I applied to BJU for graduate school (I was a late in the game with the whole salvation deal), I had to fill out on the application if I had ever had alcohol, and when the last time I had it was. At the time I filled out the application, the answer was truthful. In between submitting the application and then hearing back that I was accepted, I had a glass of wine at dinner ONE TIME. I felt SO GUILTY about it that I called my admissions counselor and SOBBED on the phone and told him about the glass of wine.

      This is the absurdity that I experienced in fundamentalism. This is what fundamentalism does to people – makes them absolutely crazy.

      1. Yep, I still deal with the mental scars from fundyland, and overcoming them will probably take the rest of my life.

        Welcome to SFL!

      2. I was in a similar position: Had an invitation from a teacher I adored in the English Department to come back as a G.A after being out (and overseas) for two years. Requested the application, and when I saw that question realized I couldn’t go back. I’d only had a single glass of wine and would’ve felt compelled to answer honestly. But the very fact that they thought it was their business to ask me – an adult – that question (and not sufficient for me to abide by their standards while employed by them) made me so irate that I began to realize I was no longer a fundy.

        1. My admissions counselor said he would need to report it (to whom, I don’t know at this point) and then a decision would be made as to whether I would need to be “counseled” when I began attending BJU.

          To his credit though, my admissions counselor didn’t seem very judgmental about it.

          I used to be one of those people that thought at said, “Well, they have to draw the line somewhere.” Really? One of my friends (former BJU-er) said that not too long ago and I cringed. What an incredibly uncomfortable way (and un-Biblical way) to live life, drawing all these lines “somewhere”.

  27. I loved how he condemned the newer translations for their interpretation of the text, without explaining what the KJV means by “WELL drunk.” He only explained what “drunk” meant. Unfortunately it’s that annoying little word “well” that messes up his tidy explanation. To say “well drunk” in 1611 English would mean “they drunk a lot.” =P

  28. my ex-IFB told me that he believes that we can drink wine but he can’t say it over the pulpit because “the people” would go too far with it!!! Sooooooo, he will lie about it over the pulpit and say the exact oppostie 😈

    1. I’m a pastor of a Church with several life-long teetotal members – and I’m fine with that, it’s their choice. But I have said in public that we cannot force that on others. Yet I know another minister who has to leave the country if he wants a drink, because his deacons would disapprove wildly (says he, sipping a glass of wine)

  29. And he lumps the NWT in with the other “perversions” A cult sponsored “translation” that intentionally left out and changed words to align with Jehovah’s witness doctrine?

    Pious Gasbag – someone needs to show him some verses about gluttony.

    1. That jumped right out at me! I reading through the comments to see if anyone else noticed it. How dishonest!

    2. OK, now that pisses me off. Don’t link believers who aren’t all King Jimmy with actual cults. Interestingly enough Mormons don’t believe in drinking either.

    4. Guilt by association. Makes the NIV and NRSV look worse just by being in the same list.

    1. I’m gonna go the next branch up and say he doesn’t know his English very well. Or how wine is made.

      1. That, too.

        I am always amused when people get so hung up on an english word/phrase and beat it to death without ever looking at the greek/ hebrew.

  32. The Lords Supper passages always use “fruit of the vine” and not “wine”, plus “wine” refers to any juice of any kind and certainly isn’t considered intoxicating unless it has been through the fermentation process.

    John macArthur has wrote extensively and intelligently about this.

    1. You got that backwards. Wine is considered intoxicating unless fermentation, the natural and inevitable process, is prevented. How did they do that? Show me a verse where wine isn’t considered intoxicating? Why all the warnings against something that is not intoxicating? This is a matter of trying to make the Bible conform to one’s own standard. Just call it what it is, but don’t implicate God in it. Like it or not, Jesus made wine for drunk people at a weddiing celebration according to John’s gospel. Personally, I would have had a cup.

    2. Well, whenever a subject comes up about Biblical teaching that’s controversial (especially a fundy teaching) or if its something that doesn’t sound right, I like to find out the Hebrew or Greek text and find out when it means and its grammar application.

      I found an interesting site that breaks down the word “wine” in both the old and new testament. You’re right, it does mention fruit of the vine for the Lord’s supper, but the Hebrew and Greek words used that was later translated into wine did refer to fermented wine.

      And, I quote from http://www.gci.org/series/alcohol/bible:

      “The Hebrew word translated wine in Genesis 14:18 is yayin. This word is used over 130 times in the Hebrew Bible to mean fermented wine, not grape juice.”

      And…

      “John the Baptist did not drink wine (oinos in the Greek) or any other form of alcohol because it was prophesied that he wouldn’t (Luke 1:15). However, Jesus Christ did drink oinos (wine) (Matthew 11:19; Luke 7:34).”

      And…

      “Another proof that oinos is fermented wine is the fact that the apostle Paul said, β€œBe not drunk with wine [oinos]” (Eph. 5:18).”

      So, take from that what you will, but if the Bible meant unfermented juice, using the SAME translated word that it used in other Scripture, then why does it warn about getting drunk. I mean, you can get sick to your stomach if you drink too much grape juice, but you won’t get drunk… unless you’re Barney Fife.

      3. I love it when an ex-fundy does her research. It proves deliverance from the blind loyalty mindset. You go, girl! πŸ˜›

    3. It’s always amusing to have parrots around to repeat the same old clearly false information. It’s a nice touch to call it intelligent.

    4. John MacArthur has written extensively on many things. The intelligently label I take issue with. His exegesis is internally inconsistent (though it is consistent with his teachings, go figure). The man finds hills to die on where there is only flat earth as far as the eye can see.

  33. KJV Deuteronomy 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

    God wants the Israelites to buy wine or strong drink and to consume it before him in worship.

    1. Yep! Never heard a fundy preach on that text. Maybe “strong drink” is really de-alchoholized beer? Maybe that was under the law but now that we have liberty in Christ strong drink is forbidden? I am sure they shut the text up somehow, seeing how the Bible is their final authority in all matters of faith and practice. Snicker. Yeah right.

      1. Actually, the word “strong drink” (Shekar) is used in an Akkadian text to refer to making barley beer (something closer to liquor, but not distilled).

        1. Yep again. That is why many new translations actually translate the word beer. As someone who likes beer, it warms my heart.

  35. My thing on the whole alcohol thing is…

    In private life, I personally don’t drink (and not just because I’m technically still too young to do so legally… at least in the US… :wink:), and if asked, I’d advise against drinking, or at least drinking heavily. Alcoholism is a serious thing, after all. No one sets out to become an alcoholic (or at least most people don’t!), it happens without you realizing or wanting it to happen. And even if someone isn’t an alcoholic, getting drunk can lead to a lot of bad stuff. At the same time, the Bible never says drinking is, in and of itself, evil, only to avoid drunkenness. So as long as it’s in moderation, I don’t really care if other people drink, even if I personally choose not to.

    But when it comes to the Lord’s Supper… well, I fail to see how the fermentation or lack thereof is really a significant matter. I think we can safely say that wine was chosen for a reason; the Lord wouldn’t have used it if He didn’t really mean it. But what’s more important, that the drink is alcoholic or that it’s the fruit of the vine? I think it’s pretty clear the important part there is the fruit of the vine part, a symbol closely associated with the Lord in other parts of the Bible. The alcoholic/fermented part of it is never mentioned, however. So honestly, I don’t think it matters whether it’s fermented or not. I think you could make a strong argument that wine is closer to the original supper than grape juice, and therefore I understand perfectly the decision to use wine. At the same time, I’m not sure that it’s *wrong*, exactly, to NOT use wine. If you want to use grape juice, I guess it’s OK.

    (as a side note, this whole thing sort of came into my mind this morning as I took a sip of wine [and, you’ll notice, did not immediately fall into sin and debauchery the instant that tiny sip of an alcoholic drink entered my throat], so this is a nice synchronicity!)

    1. Swell, first medicinal wine from a teaspoon then beer from a bottle… oh ya go trouble Annie, real Ma-steria!

    2. I don’t drink either, I’m a dreadful lightweight and get really depressed after just a large glassful, but I don’t think you should dismiss the spiritual significance of the alcohol. When one has a glass of wine, it has a warming, cheering, physical affect. You can feel it in your abdomen and head, suffusing the body. I feel it far too easily so I don’t drink or I’m drunk before I know where I am, but other people, with a normal tolerance for alcohol confirm that, in moderation, alcohol has a benign and pleasurable affect. I don’t think it’s going to far to say that the sensation in a physical representation of the indwelling Spirit.

  37. What was Jesus doing at this kind of wedding anyway? He wasn’t following “be ye separated” very well!

  38. I’ve interacted with Joseph, the webmaster for Texas Lighthouse, a few times. I’m screamingpigeon1. He won’t post any negative posts, and can be very contentious. But, I guess he probably gets a lot of people like us who’ll bombard the video with comments that make dear brother Grice look like the fool he is.

  39. I’m glad some of you brought up the gluttony factor. Look at how he’s slouched in his chair. He seems to sink so far into it that he’s nearly laying down in it.

    It amazes me how these IFB pastors can be so gung ho over drinking and other standards but never mention gluttony or overweight. I’ll bet as soon as he finished saying all this he had a fried chicken dinner. All Baptist pastors love fried chicken you know. πŸ˜†

    1. Yes indeed. “They are full of new wine” does rather torpedo his argument, doesn’t it? The fact of the matter is that until very recently water was often not safe to drink, and alcoholic beverages were quite acceptable. The Bible condemns getting drunk, now if a man is such a lightweight that he gets lit up on a single glass of wine, so be it, but “because thou art virtuous, shall there be no more cakes and ale?” (Shakespeare) I trow not!

  41. I commented on the youtube channel. We’ll see if they appprove the comment. ;)I didn’t say anything mean… just that it was some of the worst exegesis I’ve ever seen.

  42. This is so typical of IFB pastors. They focus on the English text instead of learning something about the original languags. The Greek in John 2:10 is very clear. The root word is μΡθύω. It means to to drink wine or beer (distilled alcoholic beverages were not known in the ancient world), usually with emphasis upon drinking relatively large quantities. (Reference Greek-English lexicon by Louw and Nida). When will some pastors realize that we don’t have to be afraid of the Bible.

    1. “When will some pastors realize that we don’t have to be afraid of the Bible.”

      This, exactly. I am so tired of pastors who refuse to come under the authority and teaching of God’s word. Someone above mentioned John MacArthur and his perversion of the text. Well, JMac, Grice, or whoever is frightened by the Bible, please stop perverting it! Just come to terms with what it actually says. This is the part where I would branch off into speech-act theory and spiritual manipulation, but that’s a little heavy for Labor Day…

  43. Good Lord, this guy is stupid. New wine is alcoholic. I had some in Vienna once. Knocked me on my butt. What a dweeb.

  45. The fact of the matter is that outside of grape harvest season, non-fermented grape juice is impossible to obtain – which is why many Strict Baptist Churches in the UK serve proper wine in the Lord’s Supper to members who never drink it at any other time. Like my grandmother’s home-made apple juice, home-made grape juice rapidly becomes wine.

    The trouble with the modern teetotal movement’s claims about wine in Bible times is that it is based on a false assumption, namely that alcohol is always drunk with the intention of getting drunk, and that it is therefore evil. Not so, my mother regularly has a glass of wine with a meal, but would never think of getting drunk. Now, KJV-Only fellow, are you insinuating that my mother is a drunk? Because if you are, I may ask you to step outside…

    Kidding aside, how silly! The modern versions never even insinuate that the guests then proceeded to get riotously drunk, it is only dirty fundy minds that think that.

    2. “…dirty fundy minds…”

      That really is the heart of the matter. (To mix my metaphors.)

  46. It’s pretty simple. Unless you are utterly illogical, ignorant or at the least doing textual gymnastics you can’t say the Bible forbids the consumption of alcohol. The Bible does have strong prohibitions against the consumption of anything in excess or outside the Biblical boundaries whether it is sex, money, alcohol or food.

    @anonymous. I would strongly urge you to look for a church that doesn’t have an issue with KJV-onlyism. I believe elevating any text as the authority attempts to limit God and is actually a form of idolatry. That attitude will permeate other areas of ministry even if their music is contemporary and their dress is casual. I have experienced this on two occasions. I would recommend looking for a distinctively Gospel-centered church. I would recommend visiting acts29network.org for a list of Gospel-centered churches in various areas of the US.

  47. Behold the power of tradition! I would venture that the chap has never even asked when non-alcoholic grape juice was first used in Communion (19th century), and is merely repeating someone else’s argument without bothering to examine it. But then, to do so is viewed as dangerous for a Fundamentalist – and with good reason, for (to correct Newman), to study history deeply is to cease to be a fundy, and vertainly to cease to be King James Only (I speak from experience). And given that one King James translator, Miles Smith, is recorded to have walked out of a boring sermon (on a week-day, of course) to go down the pub, I suspect the KJV translators would have disagreed with the statements about wine.

    For the record, I am sure that an hour down the pub with Miles Smith would have been an hour of stimulating conversation – he was regarded as sympathetic to the Puritans.

  48. So was the miracle that Jesus turned the water into non-alcoholic wine or is the real miracle that all of the wine drunk before His miracle was not fermented. Because that would really be a miracle seeing as how the wedding took place just prior to the Passover which was almost a half a year after the grape harvest. So you couldn’t have found non-alcoholic wine anywhere at that time of year.

    1. Do you think that the fellow has bothered to do that sort of research? Of course not! He’s repeating what someone else told him.

    2. Wow. That’s honestly the most irrefutable argument that I’ve heard that this was wine and not grape juice. No quibbling about the translator’s bias either way. Just one simple fact clarifies the whole issue.

      And it speaks to my ignorance as a modern-day convenience-oriented American I wouldn’t have even realized that there was no bottled pasteurized grape juice down at the bazaar. In firkin-sized jars. For your wedding convenience.

      It’s jaw-droppingly simple and elegant.

  49. The key concept regarding this is liberty. I don’t care if super fundy X or John MacArthur or John Piper or Sam Gipp or whoever says “Drinking alcohol is a sin”. If anyone is going to come up with a list of do’s and don’ts, they are trying to steal away the liberty we have in Christ. There is only one do – rest in Jesus and let His spirit control our thoughts and ways. And in doing so, sin has no dominion over us. Is drinking wine a sin? Who cares. That’s trying to live under law. Is it beneficial for you? Make up your own mind. Is God against it? Make up your own mind. You have the liberty to do it or not do it. All things are permissable, not all things are profitable.

    Yes, I am being purposely vague as to whether I think it is a sin or not. To be honest, I don’t think about it at all. Thinking about “is this a sin” or “is that a sin” is law based mentality. Grace enables me to live the Christ life. My gracewalk currently consists of no alcohol, not because I think it is a sin, and it’s not some rule I made up for myself, but simply because I don’t want it. Someone else might. Enjoy it in moderation if you do πŸ™‚

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