A kiss is just a kiss…except when it’s between two unmarried fundy adults and then it’s apparently some form of quasi-fornication. Indeed, it is a badge of pride among some fundamentalists that the first time they locked lips with their loved one was on the day of their nuptials. On the positive side, at least watching the love birds bumping teeth and locking braces does provide some degree of entertainment for the wedding guests.
Fundyland eschews all those movies that tell us that a couple’s first kiss tells them everything they need to know about their future. By the time a fundy gets the scoop on their partner’s smooching prowess and oral hygiene they’re already married to them for forever. We can only hope they chose wisely. And perhaps are carrying a breath mint.
Why this prohibition on a romantic gesture that has been memorialized in songs, written about in poems, and enacted on the stage and screen for generations? One can only assume that it’s due to the fact that no fundy male can be expected to have one shred of self-control. Well, that and the fact that denying even basic human contact creates a hyper-sexualized environment which creates fantastic opportunities for emotional and physical manipulation.
For extra fun on this topic, grab your local fundamentalist — in a chaste, non-sensual way of course — and ask him for an exegesis of II Corinthians 13:12. Then (after you explain what “exegesis” is) watch him sputter.
Good Morning!
I hate when I travel because I never get a shot at being the “uppermost comment” 😆
Excuses! Excuses! 😈
And this morning my flight home has been delayed 3 hours. I love the airport 👿
Close!
I’ve always been a bit bothered by “YOU may kiss the Bride’ as if the Bride were some passive robot standing there. Why isn’t it ‘You may kiss your husband’? or ‘Have it at kids’. 😆 Why is the man the one addressed? No, not a crazed feminista here…just always wondered.
Anyway…my husband and I thought it was silly and omitted it altogether.
I think this is holding the bride in great esteem. She is the one held up, and at that moment the groom is ‘allowed’ to kiss her. It’s kind of like approaching a queen, and having to wait for the right instructions to approach her.
That said I certainly don’t think it’s necessarily the first kiss. It’s just the first public kiss as a married couple; expressing their love in front of those witnessing.
It is unfortunately a ‘badge of honor’ for fundies. It shouldn’t be because they are putting individual pride where it shouldn’t belong. Can you imagine the only reason to not kiss before the wedding is to brag that you didn’t kiss until the wedding? How lame is that? This is where fundies make up ‘pharasitical’ rules to feel above everyone else.
It’s always been ironic to me that you’re taught that sex and physical intimacy aren’t the only thing you should look for in a relationship. However, it’s the one singular focus in trying to keep dating relationships ‘right’ with God.
Hope George lets this show up in the right place. Its supposed to be in response to Jimmy.
That answer doesn’t really satisfy me. Why isn’t it her being allowed to kiss the “King’. Its like she’s all that and he’s nothing.
Weddings used to be all about the guy. The bride and everyone else waited for HIM to show up take her to his home. None of this walking down the aisle its all about her and he’s stuck on the side bit. Oh well..I didn’t have a traditional wedding so I shouldn’t complain about it. 😛
You’re right. I guess if fundies think that the marriage is all about the guy being the ‘King of the Castle,” maybe they’re allowing atleast the wedding to be about the woman…ha ha. 😀
It has nothing to do with holding the bride in great respect. This is another throwback to the days when marriages were likely to be formal contracts between two well-off families. Part of the marriage contract was that the bride would present the groom’s family with offspring, but of course she had to be sure of actually being married before the children were conceived. So, the day of the wedding comes and dad walks the daughter down the aisle, then hands her over to the groom like the property that she is in this transaction. The marriage ceremony takes place. Then the groom is allowed to lift her veil and plant a big one on her. It’s a symbol of what is to come later that night, or whenever the groom’s father gives the word. In our time, of course, it is much more romantic, but the baggage with that particular tradition isn’t pretty.
When my wife or I preside over a wedding, we say, “You may greet one another with a holy kiss.” That way, it’s all equal.
I don’t know if you’ve ever noticed, elfdream, but there is no “you may kiss the bride” in a Catholic wedding. If there is any kissing, it is at the sign of peace and not announced. (Our photog missed it!). There is also no “who gives this woman” nonsense and no “I pronounce you…”.
This is supposed to be a reply to amyrose (just looking out for George) 🙂
I haven’t been to a Catholic wedding yet but I have heard that what you say is true. 🙂
I’m amused because if anyone got married at the War Memorial Chapel at BJU (which was beautiful, btw), they were NOT allowed to kiss in the chapel. I’m snickering now because BJU’s rules were copying the Catholics!
Are you serious? I had no idea they’re not allowed to kiss in there. I am just baffled by the fact anyone wants to get married in there. It’s so dark and old and depressing. Not to mention in the middle of Bob Jones campus. *shudder*
They lifted that rule during my last year (’02).
@Shelly, no way! We were always told that it would “disgrace” the memory of the war dead if a wedding couple kissed. So do they now not care about dishonoring veterans or did they realize that their rule was dumb? (I’m glad they changed it!)
PW, I had heard the same thing at BJU. No kissing in the WMC, even after a wedding, because it was seen as disrespectful in a place to remember those who died in war. A few years later I was taking a tour of Annapolis and we went past the chapel where a lot of cadets gets married right after they graduate. I asked the tour guide about that rule and she had no idea what I was talking about. They kiss there all the time.
HHHHHEEEEEEEELLLL-FRICKEN-YEAH, Elfdream!
My immediate thought at seeing the title was “My First Kiss” by 3OH!3……
don’t forget … featuring Ke$ha
That makes for a great music video:
“My first kiss went a li’l like this:”
(cut to a very somber chapel)
“You may now kiss the bride…”
And then it’s not mmm and twist mmm and twist. It’s the Hot Rod kiss……. if you know what I’m saying…..
I feel it’s wrong because to me it’s equating sex and kissing. Gotta wait for both till marriage. I mean I can totally understand. They have the same result! Babies! Well and we know how fundies are about doing something you enjoy. So no kissing for you! You must suffer!
I personally plan to hold off talking to my wife before we’re married, too. I want my marriage to be special. And meeting each other in person? It’s going to have to wait til the wedding.
Look at how well that worked out for Jacob and Leah! Yes, think of all the surprises in store for you. The wonder of each day… What will I find out about her this day. I mean, if you think about it, as long as she can cook and clean and knows her place and isn’t rebellious, how can that go wrong?
Straw-manning.
*giggles at nate’s comment* priceless!
Does anyone else think this is the next step to returning to arranged marriages?
Yeah, and the best way to control men’s desire for women is to control women. /s
One wonders what gay fundies are required not to do.
No . . . wait . . . “gay fundies” — that’s an oxymoron, isn’t it?
I believe you mean “honest gay fundies”, or possibly “open gay fundies”.
My holier-than-thou cousin almost choked on her hamburger when I suggested that the “one in ten” or even “one-in-twenty” statistic could actually mean one in ten of OUR friends, one-in-ten of our family, one in ten of OUR church…
Hmm, that male, single Sunday School teacher seems a bit too “delicate” for our taste. Maybe we should find him a proper bride…
I had an intern once that stated emphatically that there were no gays in the Baptist church. At all, period. I suggested that if that were true, there wouldn’t be a music director between here and Biloxi, and his head pretty much exploded. I then gentled down a bit and said, “Honey, just add ‘that I know of’ to your sentence, and you’ll be more accurate.”
Darrell comes through again! Thanks for brightening my morning yet another time. 😀
As far as 2 Corinthians 13:12, if you per chance happen to get a fundy with a bit more sense than usual, he will point out that the “holy kiss” was between members of the same gender (I would have said he or she, but we know that all fundy ladies would defer such deep theological questions to their husbands). Depending on how deep your mind is in the gutter, your rebuttal to said fundy’s response may take a number of forms… 😈
Meh. We weren’t fundies and chose to do this. We both had plenty of experience with other people, so it wasn’t like searching for the Lost Ark.
“Searching For The Lost Ark” has just become my favorite new euphemism.
I think you might be able to find it on the Appalachian Trail (if you’re from South Carolina.)
I live in SC, but I have never hiked the Appalachian Trail. . .in any sense of the phrase.
Beowulf,
I think you are thinking of the ‘lost Mark’.
I was making an obscure political joke, not referring to the original poster! 😳 😳 😳
Next to the white piano.
My all time favorite innuendo will always be “hiking the appalachian trail as code for spending a 2 week sex romp with my mistress in Argentina! 🙂
😆
“Well, that and the fact that denying even basic human contact creates a hyper-sexualized environment which creates fantastic opportunities for emotional and physical manipulation.”
Really interesting. After being in all stripes of fundamentalism in all sorts of locations (schools, churches, universities, camps) for most of my life, I’ve always wondered why there was so much sexual dysfunction. Dysfunction, yes. Anyone could see why the emotional atmosphere/teaching/counseling was creating all kinds of dysfunction, but I’ve always wondered why was so much of the dysfunction was so sexual in nature. Your quote gives me a little bit of insight and also how that hyper-sexualized environment can then be used for emotional and physical manipulation. Something to ponder.
One of the rules I despised at BJU was that you could not speak to a person of the opposite sex in the library – EVER. Not to ask a classmate the assignment, not to whisper “hi”, nothing. You also couldn’t sit at the same table with someone of the opposite sex. So here were these big tables that seated 8-12 people (I forget), but if a guy was seated at one end, I wasn’t allowed to sit at the other. I thought the rule was ridiculous and, although I wouldn’t have been able to put it into words at the time, hyper-sexualized the atmosphere. It’s as if we’re so filled with sexual tension that we can’t even sit near one another in the library lest we suddenly begin groping one another. To me (and I was super sheltered and hadn’t ever had a boyfriend and didn’t actually even go on a first date until I got to BJU) it was uber creepy.
That’s revolting. 👿 Seriously, it’s like they expect students to sneak off to the library to make-out or something.
Do they still have that rule?
Oh no, that rule isn’t there anymore. The things my now-hubby and I got away with in there….
It was to prevent dating. You’re supposed to study in the library, not study, hence no speaking. Also, dating was supposed to end at 7PM on most week nights, so that was another reason for it.
PCC had the same rule when I was there. Although, we could talk with any of the “employees” and since I was friends with most of them, I spent a good deal of time talking with the girls in the library.
I hear they’ve lightened up on this rule somewhat. The one exception was if you were on a debate team and in the periodicals section. I know. I was one of those student non-enforcer worker bees. Maybe that’s why I got fired from Periodicals…because I wouldn’t play the bad cop.
BJU would love me then. I use hugs like hello pretty much. As for dating i’m amazed they allow it at all. I’d have thought they would have a copy of Joshua Harris’s book I kissed dating goodbye in every dorm.
Too much ocular fornication going on in that photo!
An Ode to the Fundie Male waiting on Marriage:
Unchained Melody
~ The Righteous Brothers
Oh, my love
my darling
I’ve hungered for your touch
a long lonely time
and time goes by so slowly
and time can do so much
are you still mine?
I need your love
I need your love
Godspeed your love to me
Lonely rivers flow to the sea,
to the sea
to the open arms of the sea
lonely rivers sigh ‘wait for me, wait for me’
I’ll be coming home wait for me
Oh, my love
my darling
I’ve hungered for your touch
a long lonely time
and time goes by so slowly
and time can do so much
are you still mine?
I need your love
I need your love
Godspeed your love to me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-idDbIfGvw&feature=player_embedded
Man i love that song
Awesome tune; I love Heart’s version.
Love U2s rendition
A kiss is just a kiss…
I’ll gently disagree with this premise. I’m not going to get into details except to state that
I kiss my mom and wife differently.
This is one of those concepts that has many levels of implementation that needs adjectives to accurately communicate the noun.
…Unless your Brother-cousin is playing dueling banjos on the front porch. 😯
Thank you, Don. I’m cackling like an idiot and all my coworkers are looking at me like I’m crazy. 😆
After laughing my head off, I had to stop to figure out how the family tree would have to be set up to produce a “brother-cousin.” Thanks for that mental image, Don! 😳
It’s not as bad as brother-nephew. 😛
I think it was just a reference to the lyrics of “As Time Goes By” which is played in Casablanca. Just for ze record!
As far as passionate love is concerned, few fundy preachers will touch Song of Solomon.
Yes, I talked to a BJU girl one time at church. I asked if I could take a look at her Bible. She had it all marked, and noted. Except Song of Solomon. I don’t think those pages had even been opened.
Ezekiel is more graphic
Some in my my family are appalled at the idea of preaching through the Song of Solomon in general assembly.
“The children don’t need to hear all that”
And that’s why there is so much sexual repression and frustration within fundamentalism.
Aren’t children in children’s church during the general assembly?
not any of them over the age of 10.
My wife grew up in fundayland and was indoctrinated with the lie that the godly female does not want to, like to or even really need to have sex unless the purpose of it is to “give him children”. And even then, she cannot enjoy it. If she does enjoy it, she is a whore. After 11 1/2 years of marriage, my wife still sometimes feels guilty for enjoying it or even initiating it. Their ungodly view of sex is more about control than anything else and I am convinced has caused much harm and unnecessary tension in marriages.
This may be the number one reason I’m glad I got out as a teenager. It makes my skin crawl that there are so many women who are uncomfortable with their sexuality to this extent. I’m disgusted that there are women who don’t find out for years that sex is supposed to be pleasurable (all the time). Seeing newly married women shrink away from a husband’s touch is sickening. This shouldn’t be happening in the current century.
. . . the control issue . . . Cha-ching!
Power is the only issue. Everything else is a means to get it or protect it.
@Green Eggs and Ham. Once again, yes, you are right right right.
I never encountered that type of teaching in fundyland, just the idea that you should never say “no” when your husband wants to have sex.
I remember that. There was even a verse they used, but thankfully, I can’t remember what it was.
This is why you have such a high divorce rate in Christianity. This is also why you have abuse situations like the Tina Anderson case.
This is one rule that I’m very happy I didn’t follow. Not that people didn’t try that rule at my church/school, but it really just didn’t work at all.
That’s retarded. You can’t blame the sexual abuse of children or the divorce rate on the fact that some people choose not to kiss until they get married. I would be willing to bet that there is absolutely no correlation between the two. This is what pisses me off about anti-fundys. They make these blanket statements about fundamentalists and think that it is perfectly fine for them to do so.
Since it’s possible you didn’t understand what Mark meant, let me draw your attention to this:
[blockquote]One can only assume that it’s due to the fact that no fundy male can be expected to have one shred of self-control. Well, that and the fact that denying even basic human contact creates a hyper-sexualized environment which creates fantastic opportunities for emotional and physical manipulation.[/blockquote]
So, Mark’s not actually saying that not kissing before a wedding creates an atmosphere where abuse takes place, but that having such a low view of men as to think they have no self-control and also weirdly hyper-sexualizing everything does that.
That is one explanation, but Mark’s statement did not seem to have any correlation to the quote that you gave. Anyone who read his statement would immediately assume that he was drawing a line from not kissing until marriage and child molestation and divorce.
False. Only you so far, and you had to go backwards to do it.
Jonathan, you have to take Mark’s comment in the context of this entire conversation, not make it stand on its own.
Quit proof-texting.
I agree with the Naomi and Michelle. What Mark said reiterated what has already been said multiple times in this thread, which I’m sure you read considering this was the first comment you replied to. He didn’t need to write a paragraph saying the same thing others have already said. That’s a waste of time and effort. Don’t let bitterness toward anti-fundies consume you. 😉
I had my first kiss at 18! I wanted to kiss this other guy sooner but he went to S.M. Davis’ church (home of courtship and betrothal) and I think he was too scared 🙂 Anyway, when my dad found out I kissed a guy, he started acting like I was some whore and started lining guys up for an arranged marriage because he thought my interest in boys would start a baby-making firestorm 😀
The way I grew up, just making friends with a guy made you a whore. Kissing was equated to losing your virginity.
My mom used to scare us into believing that a guy could actually tell if we were virgins when we got married so we’d better wait until we got married until we had sex!!
Don’t the Emotional Purity crowd believe that you give a little piece of your heart away woth every kiss so that when you get married or you are ready to get married they believe that you arrive at the Wedding altar with everyone you have ever kissed in tow and you will all be going on the honeymoon together as well. That your spouse can never get all of your heart if you have been giving it away one kiss at a time, to people other than your beloved? 🙄
That’s what I was taught.
An assumption here is that you only have so much love to give, and if you should be generous with it; you are being impure.
Soul ties….that’s what we were taught. If you disconnect them but have a memory of a ‘former’ you never really disconnected.
Yep, that’s what I was taught too. S. M. Davis was a favorite in our house.
I know the feeling. I cringe inside every time I go home to visit my family. There is an entire shelf of his books/videos right next to the dining room table.
Straight out of Bill Gothard’s Notebook
Yep… sounds familiar. (Grew up on S. M. Davis teaching.) And they teach it like it’s gospel truth. 🙄
And thanks to that teaching, I’ve only just very recently (at age 19) been becoming comfortable with just talking with guys and being casual friends with them. I used to be terrified of them and view every one as a potential instead of just as people and friends. I mean, you know, if you talk to a guy, it must mean you are pursuing him as a potential mate, right? 😛 Thanks, Dr. Davis. 😕
Haha! Sharon M. Davis! His teachings still warp my family. My parents still have no contact with me because of his teachings that the Prodigal son’s father didn’t go after him or communicate with him. He waited for him to come back…(even though I’m married and 30) In my mom’s words, my husband “stole” me because they didn’t give their almighty blessing… ❓
My Grandpa was a fundy preacher and my pastor for a little while. When he heard this no kissing until you are married crap he thought it was funny. He told us when we were old enough to date “I wouldn’t marry anyone who isn’t a good kisser”. He would ask have you kissed him yet? What are you waitoing for? hahahahaha my Grabdpa is great even if he is still a fundy.
My husband was one of those “Wait till we are married to kiss” guys. It made the wedding night an absolute nightmare for me. For a woman to be expected to go from 0 to EVERYTHING in one night after a rather busy day (getting married) was just unrealistic. It could have been so much better. All the planning went into the wedding, but absolutely no thought to making the honeymoom exceptional. We had some very difficult years that I attribute to that very thing. When my daughter was getting married I gave her VERY different advice than what I had been given.
shivers of horror.
I am so sorry.
With the fundy view of sex, I’m pretty sure most couples don’t have a very accurate view of sexual consent. Makes me feel nauseous, but I’m guessing some “consummations” more resemble partner rape. If you’re not totally comfortable with going all the way right then, and excited about doing it, no one (especially not your spouse!!) should pressure you into sex in any way. Just sick. Your first experience with having sex with someone should be positive. Fun, silly, awkward, great–but positive, with both people fully consenting to all of it and trusting that if they don’t want to do something, that will be respected.
Sims–this is has always been my objection to this idea, that it is unrealistic for a woman in particular to have sex with someone that she is not already physically comfortable with. I can’t imagine. A friend of mine’s new sister-in-law was very committed to the emotional purity thing and nothing but hand holding until marriage, and recently confided to my friend that sex was terrifying to her.
It just doesn’t work the way they say it will. 🙁
“sex was terrifying to her”
Exactly. You know what that means? Not only does “terrifying” make it sound like she wasn’t really fully consenting (feeling/knowing that you can’t say no is not consent), she probably wasn’t aroused enough for it to not be pretty painful, too.
in marriage is too important to just leave it up to chance. I remember being taught that if you were sexually attracted to someone it was just lust and you shouldn’t be with that person. Whenever we knew of a couple who was “breaking the rules” (in whatever form, hand-holding, kissing, “petting”) we knew they could never last. Interestingly, my best friend was one of those “rule breakers” and she has been deliriously married to the same guy for 36 years now. Hmmm… And by the way, Is the term “Petting” and “Heavy Petting” a fundy term? Or is it commonly used? I find it annoying.
Hey! Did I get censored? The first word of that post was supposed to be S-e-x.
Probably the spam-trap ate it.
That goes along with the fundy idea that if you have sex before you’re married, you don’t really love each other. When my now hubby and I were in marriage counseling, it was pretty obvious we had sex since I was pregnant, but the pastor told us he didn’t believe we should get married because we had sex before marriage which meant we didn’t love each other. My dad (who is an uber-fundy) stepped in and vetoed the pastor on that one. Unfortunately, we didn’t see the blatant red flag and allowed him to marry us – he totally ruined our wedding.
I was taught that even holding hands was unacceptable. The “6-inch rule” was strictly enforced at my church and school. Because they said ANY form of physical contact of any kind would lead to you having having a baby out of wedlock and ruining the rest of your life. Then they would use the verses that say “It is good for a man not to touch a woman” and “to him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin” as well…
I have a really funny story from when I was in high school. Where I went to church (and school) was about 25 miles from where I lived so between AM church and PM church on Sundays I would walk to the park with my *boyfriend* and we would hang out there (with some other friends from the youth group) until choir practice. I was on the swings (In a white floor-length dress, very modest) and he came over and pushed me a couple times. When we walked back to the church as soon as we got to the parking lot, my friends were all laughing their heads off. His hands must have been dirty because I had two very distinct hand prints on my butt cheeks. (VERY embarassing to say the least)
Blatant misunderstanding of what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 7. I’m not saying pre-marital sex is perfectly fine, or that me getting pregnant before marriage wasn’t an issue, but the “no touching a woman” is definitely not what Paul is saying in that verse.
Sims–that is EXACTLY what I think too! I’m not a guy, so I can’t speak for them, but I’m guessing it doesn’t take much to go from 0 to 60…women…are a WHOLE different story! My children will be receiving SO much different “advice” than I ever was.
I can’t imagine being expected to go from never having kissed (and some never holding hands) all the way to sex in the course of one day. That’s got to be a shock. I’m glad my husband and I held hands and kissed before our wedding (even if we did get turned in for hugging on Paris Mt. by someone apparantly hiding in the bushes).
Fortunately, most of our husbands aren’t monsters. 🙂 I’ve talked with a number of people who grew up like me (kissing was a no-no and hand holding before marriage really isn’t approved either)and almost no one who is willing to talk about it actually had sex on her wedding night – at some point on the honeymoon, but not the first night.
It’s very helpful to at least be able to talk about it with your intended so you have some idea what each other is expecting.
I think it would have been good for us to spend at least SOME time talking about it ahead of time at LEAST. But we were both very shy to say anything that might be … bad (?)
It is a very warped system, and I agree with whoever it was farther up who said it contributes to the deviant behavior. When it is all suppressed, and even the normal, healthy expressions of affection are twisted to produce guilt, it is a MESS for people who might already struggle with sinful desires in that area.
One of my friends described it as “learning to drive on the autobahn.”
I personally know of young fundy couples who have gone weeks and even months before consummating their marriages. I’m sure the strict no-touching or kissing rules were hugely responsible.
We knew a young fundy couple who had an air mattress for him to sleep on in their living room for over three months. The marriage was an arranged courtship and they met only four months before the wedding and were never even alone together until their wedding night. He was 20 and she was a few weeks out of high school.
I cannot understand why anyone thinks that is a good idea or a solid foundation for a marriage.
OTOH, at least he was not imposing himself upon her as was his “right.” My take is that they probably have a fair chance, modulo the fundy-ness. But real friendship, getting to know each other ahead of time, etc., are certainly better approaches.
You know, I’m just throwing this out there…
On any given night in bars and restaraunts across this great land there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of couples who quickly move on to sex within two hours of SPEAKING to each other for the first time.
Now, for a very sheltered Fundy girl, it might be really scary, and I don’t mean to minimize that at all. But there’s more at work there than just the no-kissing rule. It’s more systemic than that.
I agree. It was FAR more than the “No Kissing” rule (which seemed like maybe more a strong suggestion by the time I was out of high school) It was the entire lifetime of hearing from the pulpit, in the classrooms and from my parents how people get in the back of cars and “Behave like animals” and shaming people who were “Too weak” to resist those carnal urges… Gives a very *dirty* aroma to something that ought to have been beautiful and fun. It took many many years to get over that.
@ Elijah Craig
I understand what you’re saying, but normal women are taught that sexual desires are natural and a good thing and sex is awesome. Not to mention drinking also plays a part. It’s easy (for some people) in these situations to have sex with a stranger when your sex drive is healthy and strong. Sex is not a mystery.
Fundy women however, are taught that sexual drives are a sin and of course, sex before marriage is even worse. Sex is rarely if ever talked about. Then they’re taught their bodies are something to be hidden and be ashamed of. How then can you expect a woman who has suppressed natural desire, been ashamed of her body, and is completely uneducated about sex, to be expected to “give it up” on her wedding night?
She can’t; and that’s the goal.
Fundamentalism, like Christianity through most of it’s history, has a pathological fear of female bodies.
Some men are appalled, uncomfortable, fearful of the effect that women have on men. Consequently, they blame women.
There is an ancient heresy in the church that the spirit is good and the body is evil.
Many Christian men (bishops, pastors) through the centuries have convinced themselves that men are spiritual and that women are carnal.
Again women are feared thus need to be controlled.
Rather, it is all projection. These men are afraid of their own bodies.
Unfortunately, women pay the larger price for this fear.
@Green Eggs and Ham. What you said was perhaps the most succinct, accurate, and truthful words ever spoken about the view of women in a wide-spread portion of the IFB. That was terrific!
@Presbygirl
Thank you.
It also means that if the man of god can’t keep it in his pants; she is much less likely to be able to say no.
True to form…Darrell nails it. LOL!
How about the couple who show up to church the next morning, so they can be good people and show God how good they are. I think it’s to show their punched “v” card.
I married a pastor’s daughter; my fil took the position of “no kissing until you’re married, please.” My lack of honor…well, anyway.
Fast forward 15 years; last weekend, my family and my inlaws visited a local rose garden. I smiled and put my hand on the fil’s shoulder and said, “Dad, just so you know – I kissed her over there on that bench before we were married.” He cracked up and said that he was glad that I did. All’s well that ends well. 🙂
I didn’t wait until marriage for my first kiss. I was sixteen, he was my “boyfriend”…and it was disgusting. Facial wash from ear to ear…
There’s no way on earth I’d want to marry that…and no way on earth I would have wanted to wait until marriage to find out that I didn’t like that type of kissing (if you could call that kissing, it was more like a saliva facial).
Thank God my husband was a great kisser, we had a lot of practice before marriage too. 😉
My wife and I both went to the same fundyU, but didn’t meet until after we left. We talked on the phone for a few months and then she came to visit. I saw her walking through the airport and didn’t know what to do, so I kissed her. It was all downhill from there 🙂
This made me smile :).
That is a cool story. Wish I’d thought of that… Question about physical touch to Dr. Gray at Trinity one time. His response: “would you ever buy a car before test driving it?” That got a good chuckle from the preacher boys. So I took that to heart…I have a pretty sweet revvving car right now…
“I saw her walking through the airport and didn’t know what to do, so I kissed her.”
That should be in a song somehow 😛
This is one rule that I am so thankful my wife and I broke. I can’t imagine how awkward or wedding would have been.
Kissing was reserved for student/faculty relationships only.
^Win!
My ex-husband’s fundy grandfather was a freak about this. We were apparently “sitting too close to one another on the couch”, and this was after we were engaged. He was obsessed with any hint of affection between my then-fiance and me, to the point of creepiness. Fast forward to when he started sliding into dementia, and he regaled everyone with the names and details of all the women he had been with, both before and after his marriage.
I’m convinced that what fundies obsess on in other people are directly influenced by the skeletons in their own closets.
Does the same thing apply to ant-fundys as well? There seems to be an awful lot of obsession about child molestation and extra-marital affairs on this website.
Jonathan, I really don’t think animals have souls, and I’m a little surprised to hear that you do. Furthermore, I don’t believe that ants have organized religion that would in any way resemble fundamentalists. That is such a weird comment. I’m really having a hard time understanding what you meant by it.
I believe Jonathan meant “anti-fundys”. But he feigns surprise at the focus on child-molestation. There’s no focus on molestation. But there’s also no fear of reprisal for pointing out the abuse by many in fundystan.
Thanks, MKXcomm. I don’t believe we’ve met, so nice to meet you! My sense of humor can be subtly sarcastic and dry, and without a history of interaction, it’s probably pretty hard to pick up on through the keyboard. 😉
LOL my bad 🙂 I’m surprised at myself! I normally am really good at picking up on sarcasm!!
Ants are Baptists … “Go to the ant you sluggard” [Shoes :hearts: the word sluggard]
Wait, you all don’t believe that every animal population has their own Deity who sent His “son” to die for the sins of that population? You’ve never heard of the Pelican Jesus? Such a shame.
HAHA Jonathan, that made me laugh. Excellent.
ROFL!!!! Killing myself laughing over your comment, Naomi!!! I think we must have similar humour… =D
Jonathan,
Nice to see you again. I would suggest that you go and tally up the times that molestation, etc. are mentioned on this site and compare it to the number of times that sucn things AREN’T mentioned, but you won’t do that. It’s easier to deflect from the actions of the pervs in your particular camp by dropping little dingleberries of wisdom, isn’t it?
+1 for dingleberries
Again, someone automatically assumes that I am a fundamentalist because I refuse to believe that all fundys are child molesters who cheat on their wives. Yes, I do have some fundamentalists leaning, but only in the sense that I ascribe to the fundamentals of the faith. If that makes me a fundy, so be it.
Jonathan,
If I’ve mistakenly slapped you with the fundy brush, then my apologies.
Anyway, here’s another exercise for you to ignore: please demonstrate how the premise that “all fundies are child molesters who cheat on their wives” is espoused by this site.
I’m convinced that what fundies obsess on in other people are directly influenced by the skeletons in their own closets.
That’s called “projection”, and yeah, Authoritarians of any type do it a LOT.
Probably because they tend to be really bad at imagining anyone thinking in a different way than they do.
I never kissed my wife before we were married.
Of course, she wasn’t my wife UNTIL we were married either…
😎
Ah-ha! The loophole! 🙂
+1 … well played
The fact that no physical touch and kissing is overemphasized creates a definite tension and awkwardness in couples. Especially when many of them are trying so hard to “be pure” and all they can think about is touching each other. It also creates such huge guilt in them if they do “break their commitment” and kiss.
I agree with many of you that it also creates unnecessary pressure on the wedding day. (It is also very awkward for those in the audience at the wedding watching that first kiss). Ewww!
I can proudly say that I succumbed to the temptation and kissed my husband before our wedding. Gasp! 😉
You TOTALLY stole my screen name! LOL I first read this and thought “wait, did I reply already?” and then read your comment about your husband and realized it definitely wasn’t my comment since I’m not married.
Sorry to steal your scren name!!! I will have to switch mine up. 😕
It’s ok. I stole it from Francesca Batistelli’s song 😀
“It also creates such huge guilt in them if they do “break their commitment” and kiss.”
This is totally me. I burst into tears when we finally broke down and enjoyed some (hella awesome, tho!!) kissing with each other (right before we got engaged.) I felt wrecked. He felt horrible because he “failed to lead”. It was a mess. 🙁
We still wrestle with it sometimes still, but honestly, I really think kissing before marriage has been good for both of us “responsible eldest children of fundy preachers”. 😉
My family still thinks we are saving our first kiss for the altar. After proposing, I got a beautiful kiss on a bridge and a friend took a picture, thankful it was at an angle because I forgot to hide it from my parents and when my dad saw it he went “are they kissing? ARE THEY KISSING???!?” And my mom was like “of course not, they’re just hugging. They wouldn’t kiss like that before marriage.”
:D!
I am *soooo* happy we didn’t follow this rule. I’m going to go kiss my hubby right now. 😛
Then there’s the “no kissing on the LIPS” stipulation with massive making out while following that rule, or the people who reportedly move the wedding earlier in the day so the can have sex earlier. I want tell the engaged couples I know who are gigglingly “confiding” to everyone how much they can’t wait for sex to just go ahead – it’s not the only reason to get married (for one thing) and if it’s all they’re thinking about anyway, they’re really not all the pure as they are bragging about.
I knew a couple, whom I really did respect and enjoy being around, but they hadn’t kissed until their wedding (and they dated for 7 years….) and after they were married, they were DISGUSTING to be around; they couldn’t keep their hands off each other EVER, even years after they were married. Not to say that this was caused by the fact they had zero contact before marriage, but it is something I have noticed in couples who adhere to those rules.
I have seen this so, so many times…it’s saddening. I’ve even see the best man at weddings like this become completely disgusted and want nothing to do with the couple after their marriage…
My dad had the same policy, and I remember thinking in horror of spending the night in a hotel w/my chosen husband whom I would have kissed for the first time only hours before. Of course, I also had nightmares of an arranged marriage to a HAC “preacher boy.” I began dating my husband 3 years after graduation from PCC, and had plenty of kissing practice before I met him. 😯 It’s rather fun!
Good post, Darrell. It made me laugh!
kissing = oral sex
So that’s what Bill Clinton meant.
haw haw!!
I have a horrible confession. It wasn’t until I was eighteen that I found out (at a youth group retreat) that oral sex was NOT french kissing. I had been taught that oral sex was the male sex organ going into the woman’s mouth (another sex organ, if I recall correctly.) I just assumed they were talking about the sex organ = tongue.
Fortunately for my soon-to-be husband (in six months) and myself, I have learned the difference and engage in french kissing on a regular basis.
That story is so choice. It literally made me laugh out loud. 😀
I went to a large-ish fundy high school in Anderson, SC where the 10th grade Bible teacher taught that every year. He never could figure out why no one took him that seriously (besides the fact that he dressed like PeeWee Herman).
I don’t really understand the mentality of preaching “this [sexual act] is evi!” without ever informing the audience of what [sexual act] is. Are we supposed to know it already? Does one night a special fairy visit you in the night and explain it to you? Or is it assumed that the audience knows all the carnal (but none of the “holy”) things the preacher does?
I’ve always thought we should reverse the order. FIRST, have the honeymoon. With that behind you you will be less tense and more able to enjoy the reception. Once the reception is over, people will be in a better mood to pay attention to the ceremony.
My Father in Law, a minister, was always reminding anyone who would listen that there is nothing “holy” about the ceremony. It is not as if a holy dove will come down from Heaven. Instead it is simply two persons making promises to each other, in the presence of their loved ones.
I had friends (Fundies, sortof) who got married secretly before their wedding. They wanted it how they wanted it and the fundie wedding was more for their parents. They were my heroes.
The last two weddings I’ve been to have included at least one (former) fundy on stage getting married. In both cases there was a polite and orderly ceremony first, followed by a calm reception, followed by an hour wait to give the fundies in attendance enough time to get well away, followed by an hours-long after-party that would make any fundy worth his salt storm away in a huff. 😀
HAHA that’s what I’m doing 😛 Nothing dirty or “bad,” but definitely not fundy-approved.
Your father-in-law must be a modernist,as the Christian view of the wedding vow is that it is a sacred vow given before God, appointed witnesses, and the fellowship of the church, under church authority. Marriage is recognized as a sacrament in Christianity (OK, ordinance for you fundies among us), a sacred appointment that is a means of grace, dispensed through church authority.
Where are you getting your definition? With all the “church authority” language, sounds like a fundy definition. To call it the “Christian” interpretation is kind of broad when the definition is so narrow, no?
A fundy definition? Just read the doctrinal definitions of marriage from any book of church doctrine for any major Christian denomination. It will agree pretty much with what I wrote. And I realize that there are secular definitions for marriage. But since Ricardo was speaking about *a minister*, I was simply observing that the minister seems to not be in the Christian tradition. But no, there is nothing Fundamentalist about viewing marriage as a sacrament. That came way, way before Billy Sunday was even a glint in his great great great great grandfather’s eye.
Well stated. I have not been to many non-fundy weddings, but I think the Royal Wedding was a perfect example. The Anglican service was beautiful–so full of, yes, tradition, which was so biblically-based. Watching it, I did indeed feel I was witnessing something holy.
@Bassenco: Yes, My father in Law was an Episcopal Priest.
“Sacred vow given before God” Oh that’s right, the only possible place where God can be found is under the roof of a church.
If you research the history regarding wedding ceremonies, you will find “church” weddings are actually a pretty recent development.
When exactly one is married? When we mutually promise each other, or when we declare it in front of witnesses, or when the Holy man gives his blessing or is it when we kiss after the ceremony?
Or when the marriage is “consumated” in bed?
Once again, we are reducing Religion to a series of ceremonies and magical incantations which have nothing to do with Faith.
According to Christian doctrine, the vow of marriage is what marries people, and the vow in consummated by sex. But the vow is sacred, and marriage *is* a sacrament, a part of the function of the Church.
You can ask all the questions you like, and there are countless answers because there are countless points of view. But Christian marriage is defined as a sacred vow that is the first part of a sacred union, that is sanctified by the authority of the Church. Otherwise, every hooker and her john are married, and for that matter, horses are married to each other, as well as dogs, chickens, and fish.
As CS Lewis noted, there are all kinds of possible answers, Ricardo, until you find the correct answer. And then there’s just one.
Marriage is way more than sex. That’s because people are way more than just animals. And, as far as what Christians believe, Christianity is way more than just cultural tradition. It’s the embodiment of Christ on earth.
@BASSENCO: I hear what you are saying, and actually agree with you. BUT, not because of perceived “Christian Doctrines” ™
Religious marriage ceremonies were instituted by the empire-based religion, several hundred years after Christ. Not because of a religious need but because of a civil/government need.
Marriage ceremonies are really simply public announcements of what has already happened between two persons. (Under God.)
Meanwhile, doctrines and regulations about marriage have been changing constantly, adjusting to cultural sensibilities, including minimum age of girl, some semblance of voluntary consent, membership requirements, and much, much more. Giving any of this the label of “Sacred” is simply a power trip by those in power.
The prevalence of “shotgun weddings” in Fundy churches are an insult to the label of “Sacred” or “Sacrament.”
Ricardo, where do you get this garbage? Christian marriage, from its description in Scripture, is to be a union in Christ based on love. It’s way more than sex, and it is founded on a man and woman making a vow that the church sanctifies as just and approved by God.
My husband and I met when I was on PCC faculty and he was a GA. Of course, there was a rule about “no public displays of affection” so we interpreted “public” to mean PCC people only. Plenty of making out on Pensacola Beach, at Navarre Park, and even a few kisses at stoplights with a quick scan of the nearby cars for PCC stickers first.
OK, I spent my teenage years with a Dave-Hyles-following-nincompoop-relative, with whom I had to share a room for several months. Gosh it was not fun. She bought into the no-pants stuff and all the other nonsense. She even played Dave Hyles sermons when ever I walked in. I hesitated on a lot of that garbage, and some of it, I never bought into. But for all her preaching and yelling and berating of me (and others)when we disagreed about “dating standards” or any other point of Hyles mania, it was absolutely without fail that she would go off on a mission team or to Youth Conference, or some such venture, and then a day or two after she got home I would be treated to her waking me up in the middle of the night screaming (literally) and crying that she had made out with Jim or Bob or John (the name of some guy she had met there) all week long. I hated being the storage unit for her frenzied confessions, and I hated her fanatical drive in her waking life to be a Hyles clone. One of the other Hyles-Hineys in the youth group went out there and had sex with different married guys, as I later found out. So my POV is that a lot of these fanatical no-kiss, no-touch chicks are whores living in Wacko Land. Not all of them, of course. I knew several other girls who went out to Hyles-Anderson, and they did not carry on like that. But the really hyper ones were bizarre and, yes, sexually wild—utterly, wildly promiscuous, and then they compensated with the iron maiden rules.
Christian Colleges I think have a partial responsibility for some of the sexual problems among young fundies.
In my experience when boy meets girl on college campus, unless they are saints their human desires kick in and either they will break whatever rules they can to make out/whatever when no one is looking. Or the couple will get married ASAP so that they are “allowed” to by physical with each other. only once they are married do they realize they really never really loved each other and just got married because they wanted to have sex “legally.”
I know a couple right now who got married in the middle of their schooling and the guy just told his wife he doesn’t really love her and has been sleeping around for a while now.
I just think what if they were allowed a little more freedom to make out and find out they weren’t a match…but NOOO we had to rush into things because we can’t be physical until we are joined in matrimony.
seen that exact scenario so many times, I think you are right on with that. So sad that its made out to be such a big deal.
You don’t find out you “aren’t a match” by making out with someone. That’s looking at it from an incredibly self-centered perspective. Very few of the comments I read on here mention love at all. And I don’t mean “in love” love. I mean selfless love.
Two people can be a perfect “match” (stupid phrasing, imho) if they just learn to show love to each other 😉
The resistance to sin in this case is based on externals. When the externals change; the resistance ends because internal resistance was never developed.
Yes… in a more stable and mature form it’s called Reaction Formation or something.
Wow! I just looked it up. That’s it exactly. Thank you. But the article failed to say how creepy it is when you actually see it played out in front of you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_formation
Heck yeah! Iron Maiden rules! \m/(^_^)\m/ Up the irons!… oh wait.. you meant something else…..
I became a die-hard Maiden fan after reading anti-CCM articles that used Number of the Beast as a prime example of devil music. In my sheltered upbringing, I’d never heard of them before. But once I listened to them, it was a match made in heaven…
Praise God for Iron Maiden!
Holy smoke! My age of innocence was shattered at 2AM when I stumbled across Iron Maiden and entered their brave new world, brighter than a thousand suns. I walked out of the shadows, crossed the new frontier; a man on the edge. No more lies, now, I’m on a quest for fire – run to the hills!
And of course there’s typically no sex ed that goes along with it, so they’re at a far higher risk for unintended pregnancies and getting/spreading STDs, but of course you can’t get tested for them or you’re a horrible slut.
It’s a compounding, toxic state.
I remember what first/wedding kiss that was particularly painful to watch. The bride had fended off this unattractive but perfectly fundy guy for years because she wasn’t in love with him or attracted to him. She ended up giving in because everyone convinced her it was “the Lord’s will.” Their first kiss was so awkward and clumsy as to be, as I said, painful to witness.
I have to say, they’ve been married for quite a while now, have a few kids, and from all appearances seem to be happy.
The hyper-fundies I know eschew ANY touching, not just kissing, before marriage. Even when “save the date” wedding announcements or the invitations are sent out, the photographs depict them walking along side-by-side or gazing lovingly at each other…from a safe distance apart, with NO touching. 🙄
Thanks, George. I meant “one,” not “what.” 🙄
I think that I have said this before here, but it bears repeating. My mother and step-father did not kiss until their wedding. My mother has since said that she knew in that exact second that there was absolutely no chemistry, and that there never would be. She said that the chemistry was so bad that had they just kissed before the wedding, she would have lovingly and kindly backed out of the marriage.
And I should say that although they have stuck together for decades now, their mariage has been anything but a love-match. He has cheated, a lot. And she has ballooned to over 500 lbs. I think that for both of them, it has been a reaction to knowing that they had committed forever to a peson whose touch repulsed them.
Can you imagine how horrible it would be to know that had you kissed just five minutes earlier you could have avoided a catastrophic marriage? Can you imagine standing there at the front of the church thinking, “Oh God, this is the only person I am allowed to have sex with for the rest of my life, and it will never be anything better than tolerable.”
And with all sincerity they say this is 1000 times better than premarital sex. /facepalm
Doesn’t sound like they actually loved each other much at all.
You know about the picture for today’s post, that’s not Casablanca (the “here’s looking at you, kid” movie). I think that picture is from “The Big Sleep”, (the “Get up angel, you look like a Pekingese” movie).
Oh great, now I gotta go watch that great movie just to make sure.
I am sure that watching “The Big Sleep” is, like, a million times better than kissing a preacher boy….
Dusty Springfield has some very nice things to say about the Son of a Preacher Man.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dp4339EbVn8
I would never buy a car without test driving it first, and im only keeping it for 5 years. JUST SAYIN 😀
That’s f***ed up. Just sayin. 😯
Mistake in the title–I think it should be “waiting TO kiss” not “waiting THE kiss”. Or am I missing something? (which is likely! :smile:)
More to the point, my cousin and her now-husband supposedly didn’t kiss until they were married, but those who were closer to them knew the truth. They still weren’t exactly making out every time they were alone for ten seconds, but they at least kissed a few times!
Besides, how awkward would that be, that your first kiss is in front of a hundred people?
Yeah, what if you did it wrong; he’s thinking ‘pucker up, baby’ and she’s thinking Eskimo kiss and his braces end up knocking her glasses off.
When I was at BJ somebody told me that the divorce rate for people that met there was over 50%. Not sure if that’s true or not. However, my sister almost divorced her preacher-boy hubby when she got to spend some unsupervised time with him, and soon found out about his porn problem. The super-restrictive rules are dumb and allow people to hide what they really are until it’s too late.
I had a professor at another FundyU actually advise against quick engagements/weddings just to get to the “fun part”. He quoted this BJ statistic and stressed how important it was to spend time away from the school/chaperone setting to really get to know each other.
I have a story about the weird fundy pulpit TMI phenom. I was a kid, 12 or so and a big name fundy evangelist was visiting our little BJU outpost. Anyway, I don;t remember his name but he was small, not fat and had hair like Newt Gingrich’s except dyed shoe polish brown.
Well, this guy was hard preachin on a Sunday night and he was address is teens about The Sex. He was tring to be funny making the distinction of no contact before marriage but BOY HOWDY, go BUCK WILD after by explaining in detail how he makes out with his wife whenever he (!) feels like it. He went on….and on…. It was nauseating.
Your story reminds me of something that happened at our last SBC church in South Carolina. One fateful Wednesday night, the pastor was preaching about the church as the body of Christ. He wasn’t the best speaking in the world, but he was a nice guy. So he’s preaching away, and said “The church is a body, and the body is an orgasm.” And he repeated the word 4 more times during the message. The first time took everyone off-guard, and people were kind of looking at each other. The second time, a spreading giggle started. By the 4th and 5th times, everyone was trying to repress a laugh, and the pastor, confused, never stopped, and never missed a beat. After the service, he and his wife were shaking everyone’s hand on the way out the door, and no one would look him in the eye, but everyone seemed to have enjoyed the service. So, when everyone except his wife, another chief giggler, and I were there, he asked what was so funny. His wife whispered in his ear what he’d said. He looked and me and the giggler-in-chief, and we both nodded. He said “Well, I guess we all know what’s on my mind.” Thanks, pastor…TMI. 😳
At least he was honest about it! 😀
I have known fundies who got married while still in high school because they “couldn’t wait.” I know of only 1 of those unions that currently exists because it happened last year (yep 2010).
My ex-husband and I won this award. Dated four years at IFB college and first kiss was at the altar with Jack Hyles officiating.
I can’t help noticing the “ex” in that sentence.
My hubby and I were talking about this very thing today. It was a rule for me that we weren’t allowed to kiss while dating, but when my very fundy father and mom split up ( weren’t even officially divorced yet), we went out to eat with his girlfriend and him and I had to sit there horrified as I watched him basically make out with someone who wasn’t my mother. It was the 2nd worse dinner of my life.
… and the worst one was … ?
…not something I’m going to talk about here. 🙂
At my good fundy high school, I learned in biology class that sperm can survive for up to three days after leaving a male body. I was also told that sperm can crawl up your leg and get you pregnant.
Not to mention fly through the air, burrow through concrete, and live in molten lava. 😕
How does wearing culottes protect you from these sperm?
What self-respecting sperm donor would be chasing culottes?
I’m quite certain that my knock off Keds and white slouch socks will protect me from any sperm that attempts such a climb.
Once upon a time I was a believer in not kissing until the wedding. Then I moved to only kissing if it was really serious, like engaged. Then I started dating a girl and we kissed after like four weeks. At that point I realized I had been missing out on something amazing. We broke up a few weeks later but the whole thing was a great learning experience and I got in a lot of practice for the next time. 😀
There have been a lot of very varied opinions on here, so I thought I’d offer my own somewhat eclectic one as well.
Let me preface this with the following: “Marriage,” in our culture, has become synonymous with a “wedding.” I tend to be of the opinion, however, that marriage is rather a lifetime commitment of love and respect between a man and woman, which is customarily symbolized in the wedding ceremony, and in legal documents intended for merely the protection of both involved parties. Neither the ceremony nor the documents make it a marriage; it is the commitment that does it.
Therefore, I would submit that I am against both sex and even kissing before you are committed (married) to a person. However, kissing before the wedding night is not, in my book, wrong, if both are committed to loving and honoring the other for their lifetime. Sex, I would submit, while eventually a natural part of the affection progression, is not, in my opinion, a good idea at this point, however, if your union is not legally or ceremonially established, especially if you live long distance from your significant other and/or if it will be a significant amount of time before you can feasibly (for economic or other reasons) make the union official (both of which are the case for myself and my girlfriend).
Sex is a wonderful thing, and kisses are wonderful too, but they are also very special. Frankly, I would not want to see my girlfriend kissing anyone else (in a romantic sense; all cultural differences aside, considering that members of some cultures kiss pretty much everyone).
Perhaps I’m just a product of my pseudo-fundy upbringing, but I tend to be quite jealous (though not in the paranoid or cruel sense; I’m very sentimental and loving lol–I actually enjoy watching chick flicks). I won’t go so far as to say that others have to do what I did, but I had decided even before I began dating the girl I’ve been dating for almost a year and a half now that I would love her, and that I wanted to marry her. Things are easier that way, and I have only grown to love her more as I got to know her, in spite of the difficulty of relationships and finding out things that you don’t like about someone. My opinion is, in the words of Kevin DeYoung, “just do something!” 😎
In short, I’m not a fundy in any sense of the word at all. I’m a bit of a nerdy otaku, and I love all kinds of things fundies cannot stomach; however, relationships are very very special, and as a result, I think they do deserve special care.