And to prevent people from getting drunk, they prohibit drinking altogether instead of teaching people to drink responsibly.
well, there is a good use of guns for kids, but not so much for their sex organs, so I think its fine to ignore it.
So, when I was thirteen, my father was touring the largest IFB youth camp on the Texas Oklahoma border with an important pastor and soon-to-be head of what under no circumstances should be called a denomination or para-church organization.
At one point, I asked a simple question: why is it that girls always swim in the morning and boys in the afternoon? Why not girls in the afternoon, or switching off?
The pastor replied that the boys might get excited, leave “something” in the water, and a girl might get pregnant.
I laughed, thinking it was a joke.
It was not a joke. The pastor of the largest IFB church in Oklahoma believed this.
Ignorance truly is bliss.
Yes, yes, yes!!!! Thank you. The thing is that by not teaching people safe sex all you do is make it that much more dangerous should they fail. I know people who mess up once and get pregnant others get diseases. Not to mention that keeping them ignorant can make for some painful on the spot learning…and that goes all the way from premarital sex to marital sex. For the fundy you should never have sex ed. It is sad that some people get married without basic facts about their body and how sex actually works.
There was talk when I was at the BOB that a couple got married and didn’t know what to do. They went back to visit and a faculty couple explained it to them. Seriously, I used to do youth work. What kids need is the truth. Sex is beautiful, but can be deadly. Sex will change you and your relationships forever. Don’t have sex with someone you don’t want to have kids with. Oral sex is still sex. Safe sex is better than unprotected sex. Of course, they need lots of guidance to go with this information. Kids respect any adult that tells them the truth.
“Why educate when you can simply say no” seems to be a fundamentalist mantra. I think they do it so that when someone gets pregnant, they get to stand them before the church and hurl verbal stones at them. Premarital sex is MUCH worse than pride, right? 😉
Ditto to Philip.
@Dan Keller: Good points, and I’ve heard those stories, too, in a variety of detailed–and hilarious–forms.
So fascinating that some people have such a hang-up on talking about sex with kids. It’s no big deal, unless you yourself have a lot of hang-ups about it. If you’re honest with kids, they typically take it very well. Of course, you have to know what you are talking about, too.
/Also heard the wet bathing suit theory before. Priceless!
Nice. We don’t give presents at Christmas because it may cause our kids to believe in Santa Claus. Just kidding, we spoil the kids at Christmas.
Fundyism sets up marriages for failure right from the start.
All these young girls ever hear is SEX IS BAD! SEX IS BAD!
So then they get married, don’t know much about it…and are then supposed to compete with internet porn, sexy women at the office, or the current pop star/sex symbol of the moment.
This is a HUGE problem in fundamentalism.
I know guys shouldn’t be tempted by these things, but we are. Having a Godly wife who knows how to please a man between the sheets is absolutely vital for his sexual integrity throughout his marriage.
Thank God he gave me a woman who this doesn’t apply to…but I just don’t know how those guys who married “Miss Soul winner” can face today’s temptations and come out above reproach. They are truly better men than I of they can pull that off.
Couple of comments:
1) I think it would be fascinating to do a case study on how this sort of information was transmitted between parents and their children across different cultures and time periods.
2) Because this subject (in the United States anyway) is surrounded with either 1) alot of mystique or 2) outright perversion with a powerful capitalist appartus driving it, it makes it difficult to arrive at a healthy, balanced, and frank discussion about it – particularly with children.
While it is difficult, it is not impossible.
I am father of three children and we have had this discussion with the oldest already. But my wife and I took a slightly different approach. Instead of having the BIG discussion with her, we discussed sex in the context of other life choices we are faced with. Yes, the misuse of sex can destroy a person….but… so can a soul-killing career (no matter how many ecomonic goodies it provides) or the misuse of credit and overspending.
Discussing topics with a my oldest such as…What do you think a good marriage looks like? What should you look for in a potential date and husband? What is a budget? How do you understand your life’s vocation and calling….can really make the subject of sex much less awkward and cumbersome with children.
Anyway, I hope I added meaningfully to the discussion.
well, there is a good use of guns for kids, but not so much for their sex organs, so I think its fine to ignore it.
You’re kidding, right? :-O You’ve got to be kidding me. . . . I don’t even know how to respond to this in as delicate a fashion as possible, but there’s a reason even little kids have those parts they have. It’s not all sexual.
Heavens to Murgatroyd! This is a very slippery slope dontcha’ know?
Once you start talking about it you gotta do it! Ex-it stage left, even.
No such thing in fundy land as personal responsibility… no-sir-ree-bob. Sin is the most powerful force in the universe! Much more powerful than that namby pamby little god who sits around his heaven worrying about all his followers who keep “falling” into sin and have to be rescued by some spiritual supersaint. Yeah buddy, if you get out from under good hard King James Bible preaching, sin’ll just get all over you! And then you ain’t no longer right with gawd. Sin is an external thing to be avoided at all costs, even the appearance of something you think might be possibly be mistaken for anthing that looks like it could remotely be even distantly related to what might be looked upon at sinful… AVOID it! Jesus will love your more better if you do.
btw “leave something in the water?” I guess the girls get baptized first then hungh?
According to that logic should a male be allowed to baptize a female that is not his wife ? Unless you have one of those baptistries where the pastor stands outside the pool and reaches in to dunk ’em…
You begin teaching a child about sex from birth. It’s not something you just spring on them at 13. It’s all along. It’s how you treat them and their parts. It’s how you talk about privacy. It’s how you respect their personal boundaries. It’s how you teach them to respect those parts too. It’s how you explain how babies are born. It’s the words you choose to refer to those parts. It’s how you cover up. It’s how you explain how a mommy feeds her baby.
All of that. Granted, I’m early in this process, but kids — even infants — know that their parts are interesting. They need to know that they are theirs. That’s like their first lesson.
Love, love, love this picture.
Camille,
“Teaching them from early on…boundaries….respect….”
Beautiful! I love what you said. You’re right. It is actually a tapestry from infanthood.
Where were you when my youngest was born 14 year ago? : )
@don–I really could see some fundy church, somewhere, using a dunk tank for baptisms. Of course, the river mural would be painted on the back wall.
Wouldn’t teaching “safe sex” imply the use of birth control anyway? And since all birth control is of the devil, playing God, etc., etc, safe sex must be of the devil too.
Having a Godly wife who knows how to please a man between the sheets is absolutely vital for his sexual integrity throughout his marriage.
Hm, where to start here.
First of all, it’s a man’s responsibility if he falls to temptation. A man could have the mousiest “Miss Soulwinner” in the world, or he could have the sexiest, most sexually fulfilling wife in the world. If he sins, he can’t blame it on his wife – in either case.
Second, the whole “pleasing between the sheets” cuts both ways. How many husbands think that once he’s satisfied, that’s it? To too many Fundy men, wives doesn’t need or deserve the same satisfaction. It’s all about them and their needs.
Sex doesn’t begin in the bedroom. It begins a lot earlier than that, with the little gestures of love and respect that should go on all day. And it’s a two-way street.
Getting off my soapbox now…
I concur at the end of the day it is the mans responsibility.
But they are “one flesh”
2 have become 1.
So anything he can do to meet her emotional needs should be his priority and anything she can do to meet his physical needs should be sought by her as well.
All that being said. I believe only God can fully satisfy. He is the only one that can truly fill all needs.
But being a guy who struggles with lust, having a wife who knows my situation and works as a team with me to help me in that area has been a gift from God. So I stand by my statement. But we can agree to disagree.
I get my belief on this subject from 1 Corinthians 7:5
“So then they get married, don’t know much about it…and are then supposed to compete with internet porn, sexy women at the office, or the current pop star/sex symbol of the moment.”
Maybe you’re just making a point about not being cold toward marital sex, but don’t take this into the “it’s the woman’s fault” zone. Seriously. How many internet porn stars, sexy women at the office, or current pop star/sex symbols have earned themselves faithful, loving husbands?
“Having a Godly wife who knows how to please a man between the sheets is absolutely vital for his sexual integrity throughout his marriage.”
Someone once said “Show me the most beautiful woman in the world, and I’ll show you a man who is tired of having sex with her.” Love and faithfulness are not about what kind of merchandise the wife has to offer.
This is what I love about writing this blog (no, seriously). No matter where we start off we soon end up in some other and also interesting place in the discussion. One can never predict where that will be!
@Pita – don’t take this into the “it’s the woman’s fault†zone
I cuts both ways.
I could make the same argument on the other side as well.
All the boys hear is chauvinistic advice in regards to how to treat a lady as well.
So they get married…have NO clue…and the woman finds someone in the office who listens, understands, and empathizes.
I am not quite sure how anything I said is questionable. It’s just common sense and unless I am interpreting scripture poorly, it appears to be the Biblical approach as well.
Perhaps my examples leave something to be desired, but I do stand by the idea that 2 are now 1.
Therefore they must work together as a team to fight whatever temptations may arise.
I remember hearing about a fundy college (less conservative than some) who had a team that went around talking about sex/abstinence, etc. . to teens/youth groups. At one IFB church, they barely got on stage. As soon as the word “sex” was used, the youth pastor asked them to leave. He said he had no idea that “that word” would come up. . .
As someone who was extremely sheltered about the sex issue growing up, I wish Fundy churches would at least find the courage to teach parents how to teach their children about sex. I mean, they can make a Bible study out of Song of Solomon if they need to, and just keep it basic. They should at least teach young men and women how to treat each other in the bedroom (like how the man needs to be gentle and patient with his young bride, since I’ve heard so many stories of men expecting too much too soon…). Also, it would help VERY much if they let up on that stupid “6 inch” rule and let young couples that are in a relationship feel ok with hugging and even *gasp* kissing a little now and then, as long as both are committed to the relationship.
I know from personal experience that I’m VERY glad my husband and I were affectionate toward each other during our “courting” days, in spite of all the “rules” against it. We learned how to express our love to each other with a little more than words, and we still saved sex for after the wedding. Oh, and we also *gasp* TALKED to each other about sex before the wedding! I wouldn’t change anything, since we were both adults and it was up to us to keep the wedding night special by not going TOO far beforehand.
When I teach my children about the subject (I’ll leave it to my husband to talk to the boys, I’ll talk to the girls), I want to teach them how special and awesome sex is when you save it for your spouse. It means so much more than just getting temporary physical enjoyment while you’re doing it.
ah this brings back the lack of sex ed I had growing up which forced me into a lot of unnecessary self discovery. It is the naive parent that does not educate their kid about it… your kids will find out, do you want them to learn from you or the internet?
But like the rest of fundamentalism it is full of irrational contradictions.
@ mike w:
“So anything he can do to meet her emotional needs should be his priority and anything she can do to meet his physical needs should be sought by her as well.”
Let’s not forget the other way around; the wife’s physical needs should be met by her husband and the husband’s emotional needs should be met by his wife. Otherwise she’s just a shag-doll who never gets to feel physical satisfaction and is left out in the cold sexually, and he never gets the emotional support from someone he’s pledged his life to and possibly seeks comfort elsewhere.
Men and women both have sexual AND emotional needs. Let’s not make this “Men = sex” and “Women = feelings” here. It’s a disservice to both.
@Darrell: Sorry. It’s hard to resist sometimes. Thanks for hosting!
@mike w: I’m just saying we can’t use our personal dissatisfaction as an excuse to sin. I pointed out the straying husband because that’s who you were pointing out. Yes, it applies to both sides. I think people who have grown up in certain areas of fundyland never really learn how to love. The god they’ve been taught loves conditionally, so how can they as humans do any better?
I owe my education to the Encyclopedia Brittanica coupled with the dictionary for words I didn’t understand. If fundies knew what was available in their own houses even before the internet, they would have thrown those filthy books away!
@Darrell LOL. I do find amusing where some of the comment threads go.
“He said he had no idea that “that word†would come up. . .”
LOL – our former youth pastor was frank when he talked to the teens. He said, in so many words, to the boys, “Keep it in your pants.”
@Beth no joking… the last fundy church I attended had a “dry pastor” baptistry. He, the dunker, stood on the outside and the dunkee sat down on a seat and was dipped under from a setting position. Not saying it was wrong, not making any judgment call on it what-so-ever, I was re-Baptized in that one when the Lord saved me at 38 yrs old.
Just sayin’, given the logic of the swimming schedule above, females must be baptized first and the male pastor must use one of these “dry pastor” pools or run the risk of a paternity suit. 🙂
When I confronted my mom after not finding out what “homosexual” meant until I went to college, her reply was: “You had friends, you watched TV, you weren’t sheltered. I just figured you’d figure it out. I had no idea you didn’t know!” Thanks, Mom. 😕 At least when I got married she handed me a good book. 😛
@Adam
“I am father of three children and we have had this discussion with the oldest already. But my wife and I took a slightly different approach. Instead of having the BIG discussion with her, we discussed sex in the context of other life choices we are faced with. Yes, the misuse of sex can destroy a person….but… so can a soul-killing career (no matter how many ecomonic goodies it provides) or the misuse of credit and overspending.
Discussing topics with a my oldest such as…What do you think a good marriage looks like? What should you look for in a potential date and husband? What is a budget? How do you understand your life’s vocation and calling….can really make the subject of sex much less awkward and cumbersome with children. ”
Wow! I wish my parents had given me that advice. About sex and the soul-sucking career!
@Kat
I agree. My wife and I were affectionate and open before we got married. Like you, we saved sex for after marriage. Again like you, we do not regret it.
@Kim
I too learned a lot from the encyclopedias. I have often wished that my parents had at least handed me a book about sex and told me to go read it. Since they did not educate me about sex I educated myself. Needless to say, some of that information was not good. I think it would have been better to have some of those things explained to me. To this day, my parents behave as if sex does not exist. They only refer to it in oblique euphemisms when absolutely necessary. Sometimes I think the stork may have really been the one to bring me.
I would have liked for someone to explain why my body was changing and why I was having the feelings and desires I was. For substitute, I got a non-stop string of fundy preachers screaming from the pulpit about how wicked I was for having normal human feelings. I think I survived it but that seems like a recipe for mental trauma.
I think this is why so many former fundy kids go off the rails completely when they leave church. They have never learned to set any boundaries of their own so when they reject the church they essentially have no boundaries.
My best friend said that the parents should wait until the day before a couple gets married to explain things, unless the kids have questions before. She said it was basically like “telling them how it’s done but then saying ‘don’t do it.'” She didn’t like my response that that was both dangerous and stupid to shelter someone THAT much. I’d rather be educated and have good character and wisdom about how to handle the information in a way that would be pleasing to God than to treat the subject as a dirty little secret.
As a father of three wonderful (and not sexually active) teenagers, I’ve found that nothing takes the mystique out of temptations like a father willing to discuss them frankly anytime they asked. Whenever they wanted the definition of a new ‘dirty word’, I would tell them point-blank what it was, and why the Bible said it was wrong (if it was, or in what context).
I think we make a lot of temptations more enticing than they should be by our unwillingness to address them. Of course sex sells itself, but age-appropriate openness wins most every time!
I learned a lot from the dictionary and reading magazine covers in grocery stores, plus a little common sense. I basically learned how sex works scientifically, but not the details (like what happens when a guy/girl gets turned on, or how it goes from kissing to the bedroom).
What I learned when I got married is that kissing doesn’t necessarily lead to sex, or we’d be doing it all of the time. Yes, it can lead to it, but only when we choose to let it. Fundies tend to make it sound like you’ll end up in the bedroom 100% of the time.
My parents never, ever discussed the “s” word, but the night before my wedding, my dad pulled me aside, and advised me that whenever physically possible, I should “say yes” to my husband. Meaning, of course, to have sex whenever he asked. That might seem a little over the top, but I know for a fact that my dad was unhappy about my mom’s frigidity, and I thought I’d take his advice. In 11 years, the times that I have opted out are very few. You know what? I’ve enjoyed it every time! There’s something to be said about the fact that if you keep your man sexually satisfied, he’ll keep you emotionally satisfied. Hey, we like sex! It’s supposed to be that way. =)
And that’s another little fact they don’t want you to know!
When my little sister was in junior high my dad didn’t want to let her babysit a baby boy because “she’ll find out boys are made different from girls”. Of course, she already knew a LOT by then because she was the youngest and we were all curious about the taboo subject. Also, my mom had a lot more common sense and she wasn’t brought up IFB. She gently explained to Dad that my sister had already known for a long time. 🙂
Then there was the time when the ER nurse asked the same baby sister (in front of our father) if she was taking any medications. Susie said “OrthoTricyclen” and the ER nurse repeated, “Birth Control Pills”. My dad flipped out – apparently he had managed not to understand that the “hormones” she had been taking for two years to correct menstrual problems were the same thing as birth control. 🙂
He also thought the story in “The Hiding Place” about not telling your daughters about sex until the night before the wedding was great marriage advice. Fortunately, my mom talked him out of that. Unfortunately, her version of sex ed was still WAY less than satisfactory.
I have to agree with Toodles that far too many people think that as long as the wife is being given some emotional support all her needs are met. This is wrong – we need physical fulfillment, too.
Toodles and Pita
I agree with both of your comments.
Good insight.
In some cases, the lack of sex education can also result in children/teens being sexually abused, because they don’t know what is going on.
This does happen. It occurred to a close friend of mine who grew up in fundamentalism. She was abused by a “friend” on her BIRTHDAY, no less. I am one of only two people who know. She cannot tell her own mother that she was sexually abused because of her mother’s failure to educate her.
My parents have *never* had the sex talk with me. I’m grateful for the (clinical) sex ed I got in school. Were it not for the fact that I went to public schools grades 4-12 (when I was in 3rd grade my parents realized I wasn’t getting a very good education in the IFB school), I’m not sure I would have even learned about my period until it happened! I was so sheltered as a kid that I remember being shocked and a little mystified when I accidentally saw my baby brother having his diaper changed (I wasn’t supposed to look). Heck, it still weirds me out if I’m working in the nursery and have to check a diaper. (And yes, I’m somewhat relishing the fact that my brother reads here and may well see this comment and be embarrassed lol).
@Tiquatoo: Well said!
@mike w: *Ahem* Men are NOT the only ones with physical needs. The idea that women have emotional, but not sexual, needs, is a complete myth. Women also struggle with lust – yes, I’m talking about the physical here! Women *are* turned visually! Why the heck do you think that stores like Abercrombie put half-naked men on their bags and advertisements?
@Don: So we sprinklers and pourers really do have it right, then. 😛
Make that: Women *are* turned on visually!
Amanda, you’re right about women being turned on visually! I love seeing my husband in a pair of jeans without a shirt (and he’s not even one of those tan, buff guys on the Abercrombie posters… those look fake to me!). He’s totally white and other girls probably would think I’m crazy… but I’m attracted to him like crazy! He doesn’t get why I find him so attractive…. and I don’t get why he finds me so attractive, but that’s what makes it fun. 😀
@Amanda. Gee thanks. Now I feel COMPLETELY awkward. Haha
@Nathan: Wow, I never thought I’d see the day when you were embarrassed by something! Sweet! 🙂
haha I didn’t know you two were related until just now….
Bad logic since guns are intended to be used recreationally.
Comments are closed.
A silly blog dedicated to Independent Fundamental Baptists, their standards, their beliefs, and their craziness.
In the fundy world ignorance truly is bliss.
And to prevent people from getting drunk, they prohibit drinking altogether instead of teaching people to drink responsibly.
well, there is a good use of guns for kids, but not so much for their sex organs, so I think its fine to ignore it.
So, when I was thirteen, my father was touring the largest IFB youth camp on the Texas Oklahoma border with an important pastor and soon-to-be head of what under no circumstances should be called a denomination or para-church organization.
At one point, I asked a simple question: why is it that girls always swim in the morning and boys in the afternoon? Why not girls in the afternoon, or switching off?
The pastor replied that the boys might get excited, leave “something” in the water, and a girl might get pregnant.
I laughed, thinking it was a joke.
It was not a joke. The pastor of the largest IFB church in Oklahoma believed this.
Ignorance truly is bliss.
Yes, yes, yes!!!! Thank you. The thing is that by not teaching people safe sex all you do is make it that much more dangerous should they fail. I know people who mess up once and get pregnant others get diseases. Not to mention that keeping them ignorant can make for some painful on the spot learning…and that goes all the way from premarital sex to marital sex. For the fundy you should never have sex ed. It is sad that some people get married without basic facts about their body and how sex actually works.
There was talk when I was at the BOB that a couple got married and didn’t know what to do. They went back to visit and a faculty couple explained it to them. Seriously, I used to do youth work. What kids need is the truth. Sex is beautiful, but can be deadly. Sex will change you and your relationships forever. Don’t have sex with someone you don’t want to have kids with. Oral sex is still sex. Safe sex is better than unprotected sex. Of course, they need lots of guidance to go with this information. Kids respect any adult that tells them the truth.
“Why educate when you can simply say no” seems to be a fundamentalist mantra. I think they do it so that when someone gets pregnant, they get to stand them before the church and hurl verbal stones at them. Premarital sex is MUCH worse than pride, right? 😉
Ditto to Philip.
@Dan Keller: Good points, and I’ve heard those stories, too, in a variety of detailed–and hilarious–forms.
So fascinating that some people have such a hang-up on talking about sex with kids. It’s no big deal, unless you yourself have a lot of hang-ups about it. If you’re honest with kids, they typically take it very well. Of course, you have to know what you are talking about, too.
/Also heard the wet bathing suit theory before. Priceless!
Nice. We don’t give presents at Christmas because it may cause our kids to believe in Santa Claus. Just kidding, we spoil the kids at Christmas.
Fundyism sets up marriages for failure right from the start.
All these young girls ever hear is SEX IS BAD! SEX IS BAD!
So then they get married, don’t know much about it…and are then supposed to compete with internet porn, sexy women at the office, or the current pop star/sex symbol of the moment.
This is a HUGE problem in fundamentalism.
I know guys shouldn’t be tempted by these things, but we are. Having a Godly wife who knows how to please a man between the sheets is absolutely vital for his sexual integrity throughout his marriage.
Thank God he gave me a woman who this doesn’t apply to…but I just don’t know how those guys who married “Miss Soul winner” can face today’s temptations and come out above reproach. They are truly better men than I of they can pull that off.
Couple of comments:
1) I think it would be fascinating to do a case study on how this sort of information was transmitted between parents and their children across different cultures and time periods.
2) Because this subject (in the United States anyway) is surrounded with either 1) alot of mystique or 2) outright perversion with a powerful capitalist appartus driving it, it makes it difficult to arrive at a healthy, balanced, and frank discussion about it – particularly with children.
While it is difficult, it is not impossible.
I am father of three children and we have had this discussion with the oldest already. But my wife and I took a slightly different approach. Instead of having the BIG discussion with her, we discussed sex in the context of other life choices we are faced with. Yes, the misuse of sex can destroy a person….but… so can a soul-killing career (no matter how many ecomonic goodies it provides) or the misuse of credit and overspending.
Discussing topics with a my oldest such as…What do you think a good marriage looks like? What should you look for in a potential date and husband? What is a budget? How do you understand your life’s vocation and calling….can really make the subject of sex much less awkward and cumbersome with children.
Anyway, I hope I added meaningfully to the discussion.
You’re kidding, right? :-O You’ve got to be kidding me. . . . I don’t even know how to respond to this in as delicate a fashion as possible, but there’s a reason even little kids have those parts they have. It’s not all sexual.
Heavens to Murgatroyd! This is a very slippery slope dontcha’ know?
Once you start talking about it you gotta do it! Ex-it stage left, even.
No such thing in fundy land as personal responsibility… no-sir-ree-bob. Sin is the most powerful force in the universe! Much more powerful than that namby pamby little god who sits around his heaven worrying about all his followers who keep “falling” into sin and have to be rescued by some spiritual supersaint. Yeah buddy, if you get out from under good hard King James Bible preaching, sin’ll just get all over you! And then you ain’t no longer right with gawd. Sin is an external thing to be avoided at all costs, even the appearance of something you think might be possibly be mistaken for anthing that looks like it could remotely be even distantly related to what might be looked upon at sinful… AVOID it! Jesus will love your more better if you do.
btw “leave something in the water?” I guess the girls get baptized first then hungh?
According to that logic should a male be allowed to baptize a female that is not his wife ? Unless you have one of those baptistries where the pastor stands outside the pool and reaches in to dunk ’em…
You begin teaching a child about sex from birth. It’s not something you just spring on them at 13. It’s all along. It’s how you treat them and their parts. It’s how you talk about privacy. It’s how you respect their personal boundaries. It’s how you teach them to respect those parts too. It’s how you explain how babies are born. It’s the words you choose to refer to those parts. It’s how you cover up. It’s how you explain how a mommy feeds her baby.
All of that. Granted, I’m early in this process, but kids — even infants — know that their parts are interesting. They need to know that they are theirs. That’s like their first lesson.
Love, love, love this picture.
Camille,
“Teaching them from early on…boundaries….respect….”
Beautiful! I love what you said. You’re right. It is actually a tapestry from infanthood.
Where were you when my youngest was born 14 year ago? : )
@don–I really could see some fundy church, somewhere, using a dunk tank for baptisms. Of course, the river mural would be painted on the back wall.
Wouldn’t teaching “safe sex” imply the use of birth control anyway? And since all birth control is of the devil, playing God, etc., etc, safe sex must be of the devil too.
Hm, where to start here.
First of all, it’s a man’s responsibility if he falls to temptation. A man could have the mousiest “Miss Soulwinner” in the world, or he could have the sexiest, most sexually fulfilling wife in the world. If he sins, he can’t blame it on his wife – in either case.
Second, the whole “pleasing between the sheets” cuts both ways. How many husbands think that once he’s satisfied, that’s it? To too many Fundy men, wives doesn’t need or deserve the same satisfaction. It’s all about them and their needs.
Sex doesn’t begin in the bedroom. It begins a lot earlier than that, with the little gestures of love and respect that should go on all day. And it’s a two-way street.
Getting off my soapbox now…
I concur at the end of the day it is the mans responsibility.
But they are “one flesh”
2 have become 1.
So anything he can do to meet her emotional needs should be his priority and anything she can do to meet his physical needs should be sought by her as well.
All that being said. I believe only God can fully satisfy. He is the only one that can truly fill all needs.
But being a guy who struggles with lust, having a wife who knows my situation and works as a team with me to help me in that area has been a gift from God. So I stand by my statement. But we can agree to disagree.
I get my belief on this subject from 1 Corinthians 7:5
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%207&version=ESV
@Mike W:
Maybe you’re just making a point about not being cold toward marital sex, but don’t take this into the “it’s the woman’s fault” zone. Seriously. How many internet porn stars, sexy women at the office, or current pop star/sex symbols have earned themselves faithful, loving husbands?
Someone once said “Show me the most beautiful woman in the world, and I’ll show you a man who is tired of having sex with her.” Love and faithfulness are not about what kind of merchandise the wife has to offer.
This is what I love about writing this blog (no, seriously). No matter where we start off we soon end up in some other and also interesting place in the discussion. One can never predict where that will be!
@Pita – don’t take this into the “it’s the woman’s fault†zone
I cuts both ways.
I could make the same argument on the other side as well.
All the boys hear is chauvinistic advice in regards to how to treat a lady as well.
So they get married…have NO clue…and the woman finds someone in the office who listens, understands, and empathizes.
I am not quite sure how anything I said is questionable. It’s just common sense and unless I am interpreting scripture poorly, it appears to be the Biblical approach as well.
Perhaps my examples leave something to be desired, but I do stand by the idea that 2 are now 1.
Therefore they must work together as a team to fight whatever temptations may arise.
I remember hearing about a fundy college (less conservative than some) who had a team that went around talking about sex/abstinence, etc. . to teens/youth groups. At one IFB church, they barely got on stage. As soon as the word “sex” was used, the youth pastor asked them to leave. He said he had no idea that “that word” would come up. . .
As someone who was extremely sheltered about the sex issue growing up, I wish Fundy churches would at least find the courage to teach parents how to teach their children about sex. I mean, they can make a Bible study out of Song of Solomon if they need to, and just keep it basic. They should at least teach young men and women how to treat each other in the bedroom (like how the man needs to be gentle and patient with his young bride, since I’ve heard so many stories of men expecting too much too soon…). Also, it would help VERY much if they let up on that stupid “6 inch” rule and let young couples that are in a relationship feel ok with hugging and even *gasp* kissing a little now and then, as long as both are committed to the relationship.
I know from personal experience that I’m VERY glad my husband and I were affectionate toward each other during our “courting” days, in spite of all the “rules” against it. We learned how to express our love to each other with a little more than words, and we still saved sex for after the wedding. Oh, and we also *gasp* TALKED to each other about sex before the wedding! I wouldn’t change anything, since we were both adults and it was up to us to keep the wedding night special by not going TOO far beforehand.
When I teach my children about the subject (I’ll leave it to my husband to talk to the boys, I’ll talk to the girls), I want to teach them how special and awesome sex is when you save it for your spouse. It means so much more than just getting temporary physical enjoyment while you’re doing it.
ah this brings back the lack of sex ed I had growing up which forced me into a lot of unnecessary self discovery. It is the naive parent that does not educate their kid about it… your kids will find out, do you want them to learn from you or the internet?
But like the rest of fundamentalism it is full of irrational contradictions.
@ mike w:
“So anything he can do to meet her emotional needs should be his priority and anything she can do to meet his physical needs should be sought by her as well.”
Let’s not forget the other way around; the wife’s physical needs should be met by her husband and the husband’s emotional needs should be met by his wife. Otherwise she’s just a shag-doll who never gets to feel physical satisfaction and is left out in the cold sexually, and he never gets the emotional support from someone he’s pledged his life to and possibly seeks comfort elsewhere.
Men and women both have sexual AND emotional needs. Let’s not make this “Men = sex” and “Women = feelings” here. It’s a disservice to both.
@Darrell: Sorry. It’s hard to resist sometimes. Thanks for hosting!
@mike w: I’m just saying we can’t use our personal dissatisfaction as an excuse to sin. I pointed out the straying husband because that’s who you were pointing out. Yes, it applies to both sides. I think people who have grown up in certain areas of fundyland never really learn how to love. The god they’ve been taught loves conditionally, so how can they as humans do any better?
I owe my education to the Encyclopedia Brittanica coupled with the dictionary for words I didn’t understand. If fundies knew what was available in their own houses even before the internet, they would have thrown those filthy books away!
@Darrell LOL. I do find amusing where some of the comment threads go.
“He said he had no idea that “that word†would come up. . .”
LOL – our former youth pastor was frank when he talked to the teens. He said, in so many words, to the boys, “Keep it in your pants.”
@Beth no joking… the last fundy church I attended had a “dry pastor” baptistry. He, the dunker, stood on the outside and the dunkee sat down on a seat and was dipped under from a setting position. Not saying it was wrong, not making any judgment call on it what-so-ever, I was re-Baptized in that one when the Lord saved me at 38 yrs old.
Just sayin’, given the logic of the swimming schedule above, females must be baptized first and the male pastor must use one of these “dry pastor” pools or run the risk of a paternity suit. 🙂
When I confronted my mom after not finding out what “homosexual” meant until I went to college, her reply was: “You had friends, you watched TV, you weren’t sheltered. I just figured you’d figure it out. I had no idea you didn’t know!” Thanks, Mom. 😕 At least when I got married she handed me a good book. 😛
@Adam
“I am father of three children and we have had this discussion with the oldest already. But my wife and I took a slightly different approach. Instead of having the BIG discussion with her, we discussed sex in the context of other life choices we are faced with. Yes, the misuse of sex can destroy a person….but… so can a soul-killing career (no matter how many ecomonic goodies it provides) or the misuse of credit and overspending.
Discussing topics with a my oldest such as…What do you think a good marriage looks like? What should you look for in a potential date and husband? What is a budget? How do you understand your life’s vocation and calling….can really make the subject of sex much less awkward and cumbersome with children. ”
Wow! I wish my parents had given me that advice. About sex and the soul-sucking career!
@Kat
I agree. My wife and I were affectionate and open before we got married. Like you, we saved sex for after marriage. Again like you, we do not regret it.
@Kim
I too learned a lot from the encyclopedias. I have often wished that my parents had at least handed me a book about sex and told me to go read it. Since they did not educate me about sex I educated myself. Needless to say, some of that information was not good. I think it would have been better to have some of those things explained to me. To this day, my parents behave as if sex does not exist. They only refer to it in oblique euphemisms when absolutely necessary. Sometimes I think the stork may have really been the one to bring me.
I would have liked for someone to explain why my body was changing and why I was having the feelings and desires I was. For substitute, I got a non-stop string of fundy preachers screaming from the pulpit about how wicked I was for having normal human feelings. I think I survived it but that seems like a recipe for mental trauma.
I think this is why so many former fundy kids go off the rails completely when they leave church. They have never learned to set any boundaries of their own so when they reject the church they essentially have no boundaries.
My best friend said that the parents should wait until the day before a couple gets married to explain things, unless the kids have questions before. She said it was basically like “telling them how it’s done but then saying ‘don’t do it.'” She didn’t like my response that that was both dangerous and stupid to shelter someone THAT much. I’d rather be educated and have good character and wisdom about how to handle the information in a way that would be pleasing to God than to treat the subject as a dirty little secret.
As a father of three wonderful (and not sexually active) teenagers, I’ve found that nothing takes the mystique out of temptations like a father willing to discuss them frankly anytime they asked. Whenever they wanted the definition of a new ‘dirty word’, I would tell them point-blank what it was, and why the Bible said it was wrong (if it was, or in what context).
I think we make a lot of temptations more enticing than they should be by our unwillingness to address them. Of course sex sells itself, but age-appropriate openness wins most every time!
I learned a lot from the dictionary and reading magazine covers in grocery stores, plus a little common sense. I basically learned how sex works scientifically, but not the details (like what happens when a guy/girl gets turned on, or how it goes from kissing to the bedroom).
What I learned when I got married is that kissing doesn’t necessarily lead to sex, or we’d be doing it all of the time. Yes, it can lead to it, but only when we choose to let it. Fundies tend to make it sound like you’ll end up in the bedroom 100% of the time.
My parents never, ever discussed the “s” word, but the night before my wedding, my dad pulled me aside, and advised me that whenever physically possible, I should “say yes” to my husband. Meaning, of course, to have sex whenever he asked. That might seem a little over the top, but I know for a fact that my dad was unhappy about my mom’s frigidity, and I thought I’d take his advice. In 11 years, the times that I have opted out are very few. You know what? I’ve enjoyed it every time! There’s something to be said about the fact that if you keep your man sexually satisfied, he’ll keep you emotionally satisfied. Hey, we like sex! It’s supposed to be that way. =)
And that’s another little fact they don’t want you to know!
When my little sister was in junior high my dad didn’t want to let her babysit a baby boy because “she’ll find out boys are made different from girls”. Of course, she already knew a LOT by then because she was the youngest and we were all curious about the taboo subject. Also, my mom had a lot more common sense and she wasn’t brought up IFB. She gently explained to Dad that my sister had already known for a long time. 🙂
Then there was the time when the ER nurse asked the same baby sister (in front of our father) if she was taking any medications. Susie said “OrthoTricyclen” and the ER nurse repeated, “Birth Control Pills”. My dad flipped out – apparently he had managed not to understand that the “hormones” she had been taking for two years to correct menstrual problems were the same thing as birth control. 🙂
He also thought the story in “The Hiding Place” about not telling your daughters about sex until the night before the wedding was great marriage advice. Fortunately, my mom talked him out of that. Unfortunately, her version of sex ed was still WAY less than satisfactory.
I have to agree with Toodles that far too many people think that as long as the wife is being given some emotional support all her needs are met. This is wrong – we need physical fulfillment, too.
Toodles and Pita
I agree with both of your comments.
Good insight.
In some cases, the lack of sex education can also result in children/teens being sexually abused, because they don’t know what is going on.
This does happen. It occurred to a close friend of mine who grew up in fundamentalism. She was abused by a “friend” on her BIRTHDAY, no less. I am one of only two people who know. She cannot tell her own mother that she was sexually abused because of her mother’s failure to educate her.
My parents have *never* had the sex talk with me. I’m grateful for the (clinical) sex ed I got in school. Were it not for the fact that I went to public schools grades 4-12 (when I was in 3rd grade my parents realized I wasn’t getting a very good education in the IFB school), I’m not sure I would have even learned about my period until it happened! I was so sheltered as a kid that I remember being shocked and a little mystified when I accidentally saw my baby brother having his diaper changed (I wasn’t supposed to look). Heck, it still weirds me out if I’m working in the nursery and have to check a diaper. (And yes, I’m somewhat relishing the fact that my brother reads here and may well see this comment and be embarrassed lol).
@Tiquatoo: Well said!
@mike w: *Ahem* Men are NOT the only ones with physical needs. The idea that women have emotional, but not sexual, needs, is a complete myth. Women also struggle with lust – yes, I’m talking about the physical here! Women *are* turned visually! Why the heck do you think that stores like Abercrombie put half-naked men on their bags and advertisements?
@Don: So we sprinklers and pourers really do have it right, then. 😛
Make that: Women *are* turned on visually!
Amanda, you’re right about women being turned on visually! I love seeing my husband in a pair of jeans without a shirt (and he’s not even one of those tan, buff guys on the Abercrombie posters… those look fake to me!). He’s totally white and other girls probably would think I’m crazy… but I’m attracted to him like crazy! He doesn’t get why I find him so attractive…. and I don’t get why he finds me so attractive, but that’s what makes it fun. 😀
@Amanda. Gee thanks. Now I feel COMPLETELY awkward. Haha
@Nathan: Wow, I never thought I’d see the day when you were embarrassed by something! Sweet! 🙂
haha I didn’t know you two were related until just now….
Bad logic since guns are intended to be used recreationally.