If we are all sinners then why is my list of sins so much worse than your own?
If God own the cattle on a thousand hills then why do you constantly beg for my money to build His buildings?
If Jesus is so kind and gracious, then why do those who claim to follow him better than anyone else seem so petty and cruel?
If works do not save us then how do they then sanctify us?
If you had 507 people saved last year, where are they now?
If if our neighbor doesn’t have enough clothing or food and we do nothing but speak platitudes to them is that enough?
If fundamentalism is changing the world then why is the world so spectacularly unchanged?
If you love God and God loves the whole world then why can’t anybody see His love in you?
Good morning.
If the Holy Spirit is in charge of saving souls, then why do you keep trying to get in the way with all your yelling?
If God can do anything, why does God need YOU?
What is this Grace you speak of but can’t seem to show?
Good questions – the one about grace especially touches a nerve!
Not just universal, but tough questions
I was sitting here, looking at the thing that said, “no comments” thinking, Wow, I am 1st! Then JoeR wrote “Good morning.” Oh well. . .2nd.
I’ve always been curious how those in Fundyland are so obsessed with what they own. They know more about every single product than Consumer Report. Is this an isolated phenomenon or is this everywhere?
Just laughed out lound when I saw your name. One of the best ever.
Ok. Please explain to the uninitiated.
Bibb Graves was a judge in the state of Alabama. He was also on the board of trustees of Bob Jones University. Bob Jones University had a dormitory named after him. Due to his business association with the Alabama Ku Klux klan, the doomiversity which has always prided itself on it’s positions of “Standing Without Apology” bowed to social pressure and changed the name of the dormitory. Despite the fact that Bob Jones Sr. had ties to the Klan as well but they can’t very well change the name of the university.
Much like the Church, BJU is not remorseful for decisions of the past, instead they pretend that if they don’t draw attention to them…then they don’t exist. History is history. And good or bad, it’s best to learn from it.
Only MOgs. They want to be the source of all knowledge and are never wrong.
I think it’s two things:
1. They’re obsessed with money, for whatever reason
2. They’re obsessed with “being good stewards,” which in and of itself isn’t a bad thing. But for many, it’s taken them back to #1, and even further to being judgmental of what other people buy or spend money on. My family is very much this way, and I’m still working on not automatically judging people for the way they choose to spend their money (and not assuming they’re judging me).
Well my sentence structure in that comment sure leaves a lot to be desired – I really should re-read stuff before posting.
I didn’t realize that was a fundy thing… Kindof just thought it was everyone in my life. But now that I think about it, it IS only the fundys who have been judgey about how we spend our money. Always equating it to how many missionaries you could feed for a year for the price of whatever you choose to purchase. Or reminding you that you don’t “Need” something that nice when something less nice will do just as well. And the whole “good stewards” thing has been so misused and tortured I can’t even get started here because I would end up writing a BOOK before I had said all I want to say on the subject.
I instinctively feel the need to justify it when talking to anyone about a new purchase. “It was on sale!” or “I got a great deal – I only paid X amount!” Argh.
It is funny that you mention this. I got called out from the pulpit on Sunday for my old purse that the pastor hadn’t seen before. He was mad that I was wasting my (meager) Christian school teacher’s salary when I should be “investing in the students God has given me”. Only in fundyworld.
Well, if they’d pay you a decent wage, maybe you could afford to “invest in your students” (but one could argue that you are doing so just by teaching)
“And not assuming they’re judging me.” This is something I really struggle with!
I think a lot of it might be human nature, since being obsessed with having more and more stuff is something I see inside and outside the church (very much a weakness of mine as well). Like anything, though, if you convince yourself that it is godly instead of sinful, it gets worst instead of better.
I’ve personally never heard anyone try to excuse it by claiming that its good stewardship, but I’m not surprised…
Questions 5 & 7 are so pertinent! Every year our church in Michigan had so many “saved” but the city remained unchanged. You’d think with all the people who supposedly received Christ the city would’ve become more godly but it didn’t. Where are they all? When I was “soul winning” I hated that question. Someone said to tell them, “The way we’re doing it is better than the way you’re not doing it.” Well now I’m one of those “not doing it” since it never made any difference anyway. People said a prayer but what did it do if it didn’t change lives? 2 Corinthians 5:17 is still in the Bible, a person is to become a new creature in Christ, not remain the same!
JoeR, your question is perfect as well. How many times did I sit through some long winded sermon, and actually hear from the Holy Spirit about 10 or 15 minutes through and want to go to the altar then, but that MOG just stood up there and hollered another 45 minutes til the mood changed and I became disgusted? And why do they holler so much about money? Is the Holy Spirit capable of speaking to you about how much to give or not? Why does the MOG have to get in the way so much? 🙁 👿 😥 😡 😳 ❓
You nailed it — they wrap themselves in so many, many excuses for the lack of truly changes lives.
On another level, it is frightening to think of those that were never converted, but who came to church, got baptised (and thus joined the church), and learned to mimic the actions without actually having the Holy Spirit indwelling them. As time passes, and they get seniority, they move into positions of importance, but bring a darkened soul and mind to spiritual decisions.
These are the great questions. I know a church that has someone “saved” every service (midweek, too), yet they have grown at a suprisingly slower rate. Growing up in the fundamentalist movement, I always wondered why these preachers who speak so highly of the Grace of Christ, are so belligerent toward sinners. We are supposed to rebuke sin, but to do so in love, knowing that we are sinners, too.
One of the reason that these churches have a lot of people “saved” is that the same people get saved over and over again. Teenagers who are part of these churches naturally get saved many times when they doubt their salvation.
This is true, especially with the children. My old church in Michigan’s main competition for bus kids was an assembly of God church. The kids didn’t care which bus they rode, since they got treats from either church. So it was normal for them to doubt their salvation, and get “saved” over and over again. I think some of them liked the attention they got when they went to the front and had a worker deal with them.
If politics are temporal, not eternal, why do you spend so much time harping on it?
If God is in control why do you act as if He isn’t, you are?
Hey Doctor X, can I read your dissertation?
wats u disertasion???/?
‘Scuse me, that should be “Whats a dessert station?” (Is that like an oasis?)
If God is so concerned with the condition of my heart, why are you so concerned with my clothing?
Why do you sell salvation while you boldly sing about amazing grace?
Why do you sell salvation or sing amazing grace. If neither has anything to do with your salvation? That (salvation thing) already having been pre-determined, w/out any input whatsoever from you.
Greg, My salvation has everything to do with grace. It has nothing to do with any work of mine.
That is what makes Christianity so amazing. That Christ would save wretched sinners who are his enemies and are incapable of saving themselves is an incredible truth.
Salvation is amazing! The “Gospel” is the power of God unto Salvation (to whom?) to all that believe. And that truly covers “all” 1 John 2:1,2 “Jesus Christ, the Righteous One, He is the atoning sarifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.”
I’m so delighted that our God is no respecter of persons, if He will save me, He will save anyone!!! For whosoever will!!
Why do you pray for God to save your loved ones when your theology teaches that God doesn’t intervene in their salvation?
So true. I’ve wondered this in different ways since growing up (literally and figuratively) and leaving fundyland.
Why do you pray for God to save your loved ones when your theology teaches that God doesn’t pay any attention to your prayers and saves only those He wants to.
When some Christians come to terms with the sovereignty of God their prayers tend to evolve from constant requests to worship.
I don’t know what Bible you’re reading. God hears our prayers and they are used as a means of fulfilling His predetermined will. Either He is Lord or you are Greg…I assume you’d rather be lord? So did Adam.
Ditch that robot faith, and wade on out into grace, what a complete waste of my Saviour’s blood to come to planet Earth and save a bunch of robots. You really need to study that bible for yourself alittle bit Mr Baptist man.
The waste of blood is on all those millions of people Jesus failed to save in your theology.
I don’t have to deny God’s sovereignty to affirm man’s free will. I can hold to both.
Will God hear and answer my prayer to save my precious 3-yr old daughter if she is not one of the pre-selects?
Yes, He’ll hear and answer…yes or no according to His will. His election is in the secret counsel of God and it’s not for us to wonder who is and who isn’t elect. To hate the fact that God has first choice in this matter only proves your rebellious and unwilling heart to let God be totally sovereign over everything. If left to yourself, you’d reject Him and go to hell. If you’re saved Greg, I’ll rejoice in your election even though you won’t.
But, just the fact that you’re praying for her salvation is enough for me to think He will save her since He has put it on your heart to pray for her, teach her, and lead her to the saving knowledge of Christ.
If a sinner rejects Christ, it will not be God’s fault for not choosing him..it will be his/her fault for hating God and He just gives them what they already want.
That was a hypothetical 3 yr old daughter. I led my precious daughter to the Lord when she was about 5, she’s now, she’s now 26. “He who goes out weeping, carrying seed to sow, will return wih songs of joy, carrying sheaves with him.”
I may be in real trouble Mr Baptist man, because in my many years of studying the scriptures, I have never come across any kind of Jesus like what you’re talking about. Are you trying to tell me that Jesus talks about how intricately he weaves me in my mother’s womb, and sends me down here to Earth to die in a devil’s Hell, I don’t really think I want anything to do with a God like that, but I don’t have to worry about that, because some pitiful man (John Calvin) ate too much stromboli one night when he wasn’t out killing christians and dreamed all of this dead-end bull up, it pains me that you harm God’s salvation message the way you do, but if you have called on Jesus to save you, He will even if your silly man-made theology is all screwed up.
Greg, when you guys can’t win a theological discussion, you always resort to ad hominem attacks, slander and name calling. John Calvin didn’t kill Christians and he was French so he didn’t eat stromboli. Aside from your silly antics, I’ll answer your question.
Yes the God that made every person in the womb also has a destiny for them..
Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
The gospel I preach is whosoever will may come. I don’t try to figure out who “wills” that’s God’s job.
I thank God for your 3 year old daughter’s salvation so many years ago. It proved my point.
Mr Baptist Man – There is no theological battle to win. There is no Bible to support any part of the man-made theology known as calvinism, none. Not only can you not “win” you can’t even get to the battle. Why would anyone preach this stuff. What’s the message. “Ladies and gentlemen we are gathered here today….well I’m not sure why we’re gathered here….nothing that I can say, and no scripture I can give will do anything for any of you…you see along time ago God decided whether you were going to heaven or Hell….I’d like to say we could pray for ya, but that won’t do no good. Lady in the front row waving her hand…..but pastor I’ve been praying for my alcoholic husband for years to get saved, are you telling me that’s just been a waste of time…..uh…uh..er…Yes mam, just a waste of time….well, why have I been coming here all these years, …..I don’t know….really if you get down to it…..why have any of us ever come? ….no thanks Mr Baptist Man.
Touche’ on the ad hominem attack!
No scripture? I’ve been using lots of it..go check the other thread we were on…I got lots of scripture to back up what the Bible says about His sovereign choice in salvation.
Your ad hominem attacks are proof that you don’t have anything left that is rational or Biblical to support your view.
Mr Baptist Man – I gave you the ad hominem attack, dude, but it still doesn’t change Calvin’s murderous ways. Misunderstood, improperly exegeted scripture is just that. Just like your John 6 supports my theology not yours.
Don’t know what to tell ya, but just keep studying and remember to take those reformed lenses off when you do, what most of us do, and I’m not immune, is to read “into” the passages what we “want” it to say, rather than let the passages speak for themselves. There most certainly are many things in and about the scriptures that I do not know, but one thing is for certain, there is not even one piece of that TULIP contained in the scripture. Whenever I get around reformed folks I see massive amts of pride all around, but that makes sense, because it is a man-dominated/oriented theology, no grace around for miles.
I submit God wouldn’t even have provided us with a Bible, the Holy Spirit most certainly wouldn’t have wasted His One and Only Son, if calvinim were true. There would have been no need. No one has to die so that robots get to go to heaven, that’s a puny God’s parlour trick. He certainly wouldn’t have wasted precious resources for that.
Greg: Mr Baptist Man – I gave you the ad hominem attack, dude, but it still doesn’t change Calvin’s murderous ways.
More slander and ad hominem. *sigh*
Greg: Misunderstood, improperly exegeted scripture is just that. Just like your John 6 supports my theology not yours.
Did you forget John 8? I mentioned that in the other thread. I challenge you to demonstrate bad exegesis.
Greg:…rather than let the passages speak for themselves.
Only certain passages. The one’s I’ve mentioned that clearly say God chose, God grants repentance, God decrees all that will happen, etc..also speak for themselves too.
Greg: There most certainly are many things in and about the scriptures that I do not know, but one thing is for certain, there is not even one piece of that TULIP contained in the scripture. Whenever I get around reformed folks I see massive amts of pride all around, but that makes sense, because it is a man-dominated/oriented theology, no grace around for miles.
Let’s just go with “T” total depravity. Are you going to deny that every part of man is totally infected with sin?
Romans 3:10-19 doesn’t leave the natural man with one good thing. So, to say that none of the TULIP belief is supported by any scripture is just plain inaccurate, ignorant or dishonest.
I’m a proud and selfish man…yes, I have to repent of it every day by God’s grace. I’m glad you can see that so clearly. You must be a much more humble man than I am.
Greg: I submit God wouldn’t even have provided us with a Bible, the Holy Spirit most certainly wouldn’t have wasted His One and Only Son, if calvinim were true. There would have been no need. No one has to die so that robots get to go to heaven, that’s a puny God’s parlour trick. He certainly wouldn’t have wasted precious resources for that.
More ad hominem. You clearly don’t understand Calvinism because according to Calvinism, God HAD no other way of saving people but by sending His Son to purchase their redemption. Your robot “stray man” is the oldest in the book. No Calvinist believes that elect believers are robots. That is your bias. Calvinists believe that the elect are spiritually awakened from the dead.
Total Depravity – Yes men are wicked, unrighteous, bad, but guess what? I surprised even myself today, the word “depraved” or “depravity” are not in the KJV at all, not one time. I know this man-made theology of calvinism has been around along time, I would have thought for sure the followers of this man’s theology would have been reflected in this venerable old translation but no. However it does make sense because man-pleasers run all around telling us what “depraved” means and here it’s not even in the book that most folks in the U.S. grew up on (full disclosure, I use the NIV, however I certainly recognize the impact that the KJV has had on our nation) Despite man’s wickedness, God draws every last one of us to himself, “If I am lifted up I will draw all men unto me” Then it is up to the man to decide to accept or reject, God doesn’t force anyone to accept Him. God wouldn’t have wasted His Son’s life for such an unecessary plan, why can’t you see that? What is the purpose of making robots, send them to Earth and then at a later time come and collect them? Where is any victory in that? They had no choice but to accept, so if no choice is available, there is no need to waste any precious resources. You don’t need a bible at all. I’m sitting here reading my bible every day, in your man-system my bible reading doesn’t amt to anything, but of course Jesus thinks much differently than Calvinites – Jesus said “You diligently study the scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.” John 5:39 So deal with Jesus hear Mr Baptist Man. (refusing is something we “do.” Is he lying, is Jesus out of God’s will. The scriptures are what tell me about Jesus, that allows me to know Him and come to Him. Let’s look back at some more bible, my rantings mean nothing! v-37 “And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,” v-38 “nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.” May I shout? BELIEVE!!!!!! That is something that we “do” God doesn’t force you to believe, wicked man must do that after we are drawn. A challenge to you Mr Baptist Man, pls show me one scripture where God forces someone to believe.
If you haven’t already, won’t you believe on Him today, that is what the gospel is all about!
Trinity isn’t in the Bible either, so why bring up such a dumb retort?
So God draws all men…ok, and when he does, this is what happens:
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44 KJV)
Nobody CAN (has the ability) to come, except God draws…ok, and those who He draws are raised in the last day. You say that ALL men means every last one of us….fine…plug that in with this verse and you are forced to conclude that your definition of ALL are raised in the last day…you are a universalist. All who are drawn are raised in the last day and are saved.
If ALL means “all kinds without distinction” in John 12:32, then there is perfect agreement with John 6:44. All kinds of men that Jesus has drawn were drawn first by the Father in perfect agreement w/ each other and Jesus raises them. Your interpretation leads to universalism.
Furthermore, Where is the victory you ask? I turn the question on you…where is the victory of sending Jesus to die for millions and billions of people who will reject him and go to hell? What a waste! What a failure your god is. He cannot even entice men to himself. He has beg and plead like a rejected desperate lover for the affections of men.
My God has chosen, purchased and redeemed all His people whom He has foreknown for the glory of His grace upon them who were hopeless. The others whom He does not choose to save will glorify Him in their damnation. Nobody in heaven can claim anything of them selves for being there. Nobody in hell can blame anyone but themselves for being there.
I have a hint for you Mr Baptist Man, get one of those bibles that has the words in paragraph form, then you won’t be as likely to proof-text, as you have done to John 6, I have to guard against it myself, context, context, context. Pls look on down from your favorite verse so you can get some, what is it class? Context! v-47 “I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.” v-51 “If anyone is “forced” to eat of this bread, he will live forever……………….no,no, no, oh Help him to grasp Grace Lord!!!!”If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever.” No one is making these folks eat this bread, God did not select him to eat and him to go to Hell, there is nothing remotely like that in the Holy Scriptures!! Again, not only is calvinism not in the bible, it can’t even get to the battle!
I wouldn’t want to be around you when God talks to you about your penultimate paragraph!! Whew He entices/calls all men Monsters force people to do things, Our Precious and Holy God calls them and then allows them to accept or reject. I would much rather have folks in Heaven with me that actully “wnat to be there.”
He chooses to save “for whosoever will” calvinism has blinded your understanding, that is what happens when people rely on men to get their theology……pitiful……How very proud you are, but friend you will see!!!
Mr Baptist Man – A question for you. I know you believe in perserverence of the saints, but in your brand of calvinism, do you “know” that you are saved, or do you merely “hope” you are saved, and will only find out later if you made it?
There you go again on your false premise. I don’t believe God forces anyone. You keep re-defining the terms to fit your own bias.
Mr Baptist Man – Susie comes to you and wants to be saved, can she call on Jesus and be saved?
I’ll answer for you. You don’t know if she can, because you are not sure if she is one of the pre-selects or not, that Sir is a pitiful, dead-end faith!
Now are all my “premise” bases covered that time. Monster Gods tell people to come unto me, and when they do, the monster checks the list and says sorry your name’s not on here.
I serve a Living and Powerful God, whose message will not be contaminated and weakened by simple men’s beliefs.
Greg: Mr Baptist Man – Susie comes to you and wants to be saved, can she call on Jesus and be saved?
Yes she can. If she believes.
Greg: I’ll answer for you. You don’t know if she can, because you are not sure if she is one of the pre-selects or not, that Sir is a pitiful, dead-end faith!
That’s not my business to know if she is elect. If she believes, she is elect. Her coming to the light proves that what has happened in her heart was wrought in God (John 3:21)
Greg: Now are all my “premise” bases covered that time. Monster Gods tell people to come unto me, and when they do, the monster checks the list and says sorry your name’s not on here.
That’s a lie and a misrepresentation..you are a dishonest man. That’s not what any Calvinist believes.
Greg: I serve a Living and Powerful God, whose message will not be contaminated and weakened by simple men’s beliefs.
You serve yourself since you want your free will to be supreme over God’s will. You are the weak and simple man with weak beliefs.
I don’t like either of our tones, I’ll try to do better. Don’t remember Don and I getting so animated.
Susie’s coming to the light proves that after she was drawn by the Holy Spirit, she responded in faith, and did what? “believed” She did not have to, (no such thing as irrestible grace, men reject God’s plan every single day, to their detriment I might add) God in eons past did not say that on Nov 12, I’m making Susie trust in me, no, Did our God “know” that Susie was going to accept Him on Nov 12, yep! Therein is the mystery, that’s what makes God God, but let me tell you that you will never show me where God makes any man accept him, He knows who will but does not force it, and certainly didn’t pre-select them. That’s right I can’t explain that, neither did Calvin, and neither friend can you, that would make you just like God now, wouldn’t it! I appreciate God allowing free will, I want to be with folks in heaven that chose God, not folks that “had” to come.
Does the bible compel people to come to God? Absolutely!! Calvin says that someone could, but may be turned away depending on God’s decision eons ago. If this is not the case, then we agree.
Mr Baptist Man: “You serve yourself since you want your free will to be supreme over God’s will. You are the weak and sinful man with weak beliefs.”
That’s a lie and a misrepresentation…..you Mr Baptist Man are a dishonest man and may I add very misguided man. That is not what I believe, no true bible believer believes that, unless they have followed some sinful men to define their beliefs for them.
I am committed to God’s free will being the final judge and jury.
You are committed to human free will being the final judge and jury.
So, how are you not serving self in this? You are an irrational, illogical, emotional fool who doesn’t even try to understand your opponents argument. You just want want to malign them. I have not denied man’s responsibility to believe, rather I’ve tried to reconcile both man’s belief and God’s election as taught in the Bible without compromising either one . Your idea of free will is pagan and not taught in Scripture. Our will is infected by sin and it takes a work of grace to turn our hearts to God. You call this a monsterous forcing of a person. This is blasphemy against God’s grace.
Mr Baptist Man – I have had my words twisted oftentimes on SFL but you are getting dangerously close to being the worst of these offenders. It’s difficult I know, to have your man-made theology come under fire from the precious pages of the precious book, but rather than make up tales about the messenger, maybe you should have another look at these very non-christian, non-bible supported views of your man-made theology.
You said of me that “I am committed to human free will being the final judge and jury.” That sir is a lie from the pits of Hell.
Our will most certainly is infected by sin and most definitely needs a work of grace to turn our hearts to God. That is precisely what the Holy Spirit does, and how dare you to suggest that I believe otherwise!! Have you read any of my posts? (love the debate but won’t tolerate being lied on) Where we disagree, is when that “drawing” takes place, we must respond positively to that drawing, in order to be saved, one may also “reject” this drawing, which calvinism says is impossible because of “irrestible grace, which is yet another lie of calvinism. “The Holy Spirit says, today if you hear His voice do not harden your hearts” Yes calvinists all over the world you can harden your hearts!! This is bible and if it’s getting hot in here open up a window, there is more bible to come! What you and your fellow misguided calvinites are doing is “nullifying the word of God with your tradition that you have handed down”
Wont’ you please today ditch your monstrous, man-made, word of God denying, false theology and hear the wonderful, life-giving words of the Saviour, a “real” Saviour, not a Saviour that shows up unnecessarily to “save” people who were already saved 12 million years ago, let us hear from the “real” Saviour “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!” (apparently Jesus didn’t keep up with calvinism, else He wouldn’t have bothered with the “longing”)
There’s not a piece of your dead-end TULIP alive, it’s a dead, man-made mess, that dishonors the living God, throw that dead thing out in the trash.
Please don’t lie or misquote me again, I know it’s hard for you.
Greg said: Where we disagree, is when that “drawing” takes place, we must respond positively to that drawing, in order to be saved, one may also “reject” this drawing, which calvinism says is impossible because of “irrestible grace, which is yet another lie of calvinism.
This quote is exactly what I’m talking about. Your free will is supreme and the positive or negative decision is based on you and you alone which makes your will supreme to God’s. He has to wait and choose you based on your choice. So, I’m not lying or misrepresenting. You are committed to your choice being the judge and jury of what to do with God’s drawing.
If left to yourself in your slavery to sin, you would always choose according to your nature and you would reject Christ. The only reason you chose Christ is because Christ awakened you from the dead and then you were able to choose correctly because He aawakened your spiritually dead eyes so that you would want to chose him of your own will. In your natural state, you would never choose Christ and to say that you would is to give your sinful state too much credit.
Mr Baptist Man – My words mean nothing, so I will provide some select verses from Hebrews.
“Today if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts” 3:7
“See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.” 3:12
“So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.” 3:19
“For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. Now we who have believed enter that rest,”…..
May the Lord add His blessing to His words.
Why were you a narrow-minded, obsessive, manipulative, difficult person who became born again, and are now a born-again narrow-minded, obsessive, manipulative, difficult person who is incessantly talking about having been born again?
Haha..win.
I prefer not to put words into God’s mouth Mr Baptist Man, God speaks clearly for himself.
I have come to terms with God’s sovereignity. A sovereign God came to planet Earth to seek and to save that which was lost, that’s His sovereign plan. All one has to do is “call” on Him and He will save anyone. Salvation is a gift, it can’t be forced on anyone. How folks came to “equate” sovererign with God picking this one for heaven and that one for hell is beyond me, but certainly men were involved,because it ain’t w/in a country mile of scripture.
It’s beyond you because you don’t believe verses like these:
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
John 6:65 5 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you,
I will give you an E for effort Mr Baptist Man, and definitely appreciate you using scripture. The key verse that you use, that completely validates my theology, and will help you in understanding many of these type of verses (not all) is John 6:65 look back to v-63 “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. Yet thre are some of you who do not BELIEVE.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not BELIEVE and who would betray him. He went on to say……nothing whatsoever here to suggest “God-willed” any of these folks to believe or not believe, but Jesus “knew” who would and who would not believe. Because God “knows” does in no way “negate” man’s will to accept or reject. If you know your bible at all, you know very well man rejects God’s will all the time, if you disagree with that, stand-by for a truckload of verses. John 15:16 Sure God chose the diciples, the stories of each of their selections are included in the gospels, God can and does choose us to do many things. Paul to preach to the Gentiles, David to be King, Nehemiah to build the wall, That’s way different than forcing folks to get saved, btw all those just mentioned could have rejected God’s plan, friend there ain’t nothing special about having robots follow a track. God is waaaaay bigger than that.
Sure He knew who did not believe…how did He know? Well, Jesus could read everyone’s mind. That kinda helps. But Jesus being God knew because God has declared the end from the beginning…every little detail:
Isaiah 46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
BTW, no Calvinist teaches that God’s sovereignty negates man’s decision to choose. He has total freedom to choose whatever he wants. As George Whitefield said, “He has a free will….to choose hell.” apart from God’s choice to make him willing to believe the gospel, he would chose sin, death and hell every time because that’s his nature and that’s what he wants.
You apparently have already forgotten why Jesus came to plantet Earth. “To seek and to save that which was lost” ALL of us. Does He know who will “accept” Him, yes, explain that, I can’t. But I did take him up on His offer. Do you actually believe that God would extend an offer to “come unto me all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” and then renege on His offer, man that calvinist God really doesn’t say what He means very often. Think for one second, why would God bother with a redemption plan if the “redeemed” are forced to repent, just simply on its face this man-made theology makes no sense at all. Why preach? Everyone that’s gonna get saved is going to whether you preach or not. Why Pray? God’s gonna only let His plan through no matter what you pray, but Lord I want my child to accept you, sorry bud not on the list, Why testify/witness? None of this effort makes one bit of difference. I think you need to confess your sin of listening to men and open that precious book and let that wonderful Spirit of the Lord wash over you with truth and clean you up from that man-made mess.
Greg said: “You apparently have already forgotten why Jesus came to plantet Earth. “To seek and to save that which was lost” ALL of us.”
Are you adding to that verse Greg? If they are His Sheep, He goes after them.
John 10:26-27 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
Why do they not believe Greg? Jesus answers “because you are not of my sheep”. That means the cause of their unbelief is that they are not part of Jesus’ sheep whom He has come to seek and save. You have it backward. You think Jesus said: “You are not of my sheep because you don’t believe.” Now either Jesus got confused or you just don’t believe ALL of His Words.
Greg: “Does He know who will “accept” Him, yes, explain that, I can’t. But I did take him up on His offer.”
I can explain it…because He’s God and He knows everything because He has ordained all that will be.
You took him up on the offer…good for you. Do you want a ribbon or something to pin on yourself for being so smart? Were you more holy than the others who rejected the offer? Were you less dead in sins than others? Was your sin less wicked than others so that you were more sensitive to spiritual things? You have a lot to boast about for taking up that offer, Greg.
Sorry, you need to repent of glorying in your choice and stop boasting…God chose you whether or not you like to believe it:
1 Corinthians 1:28-29 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Greg: “Do you actually believe that God would extend an offer to “come unto me all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” and then renege on His offer?”
No, those who are weary and heavy laden will come to Christ for rest. Those who are not weary of their sins or heavy laden with guilt will not come because they love darkness rather than light.
Greg: “Think for one second, why would God bother with a redemption plan if the “redeemed” are forced to repent.”
Nobody’s forced to repent, they’re granted the gift of repentance. Stop erecting straw men. Sinners repent as God gives them the ability to:
Acts 11:18…and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
2 Timothy 2:25..instructing those that oppose themselves; if God perhaps will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.
Greg: “just simply on its face this man-made theology makes no sense at all. Why preach? Everyone that’s gonna get saved is going to whether you preach or not. Why Pray? God’s gonna only let His plan through no matter what you pray, but Lord I want my child to accept you, sorry bud not on the list, Why testify/witness? None of this effort makes one bit of difference.”
Why preach, pray, witness? Because it’s commanded first of all.
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Because success is guaranteed, secondly…
Acts 18:9-10 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace: 10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
Not a single soul was saved in Corinth yet, but because God had had his elect in that city, Paul could go boldy knowing that God had many people in that city that would be saved.
Any other questions?
Mr Baptist Man – I’ll tell you what is “fear” I sense fear coming off of you!
Oh my such a mixed-up fella and such little time!
John 10 beginning with v-22 Jesus is dealing with the Jews during the time of the Feast of Dedication. Really and truly Mr Baptist Man, could it be any more clear!!V-24 How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly. v-25 “I did tell you, but you do not believe” Mr Baptist Man, they did not believe!!!BELIEVE/this is what is necessary to be one of His, they didn’t believe! They could have, no one made them “not” believe. Jesus did tell them (Jews) plainly but they did not believe. (so far I could defend calvinism better than you) then and only then does Jesus go on to talk about “My Sheep”
You are not really going to try to torture Acts 11:18 to support ol Johnny’s theology, sorry, I just can’t help it, a story about shooting fish in a barrell comes to mind. Mr Baptist Man, a transitional time here when salvation was coming to the Gentiles they recognized this and were happy, or at least some were, ahh, ok God’s allowing gentiles to be saved too, Great!
2 Timothy 2:25 That’s my verse, why would a calvinist even go here, this again proves my point, this is what you as a pastor are supposed to be doing. Instruct, preach, cry, appeal to folks that God will grant them repentance that leads them to a knowledge of the truth, they would come to their senses and jump in with God. This is good ol Gospel preaching, not sure why you went here.
I just thought of two guys that I have debated on SFL that are 500 times more knowledgeable than you on calvinism, they must just be gritting their teeth wanting to get in on this. Friend seriously you aren’t doing well thus far on defending your man-made theology, those other two fellas actually make me think alittle….let me go back up and see what else you got…..
Acts 18:9-10 I don’t think this is even talking about salvation at all, he merely stayed on for another 18 months and taught the believers, so much for that.
Mark 16:15 You have really gotten me in a good mood Mr Baptist Man, I have smiled and chuckled all the way through handling these softballs. Sir really Mark 16:15 is for men like me, not for calvinists! “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever BELIEVES (you mean some won’t Lord?) and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” Wow! That’ll preach! Could it be Lord that after some are drawn, and we know that all are drawn, even Mr Baptist Man can no longer deny that, but even then some won’t believe? That’s right, but wait believing or not believeing is on me, right? That’s right, well some ol boy talking bout a Calvin fella, says wasn’t nothing you could do, belief didn’t matter at all, you was forced to get saved or forced to go to hell, but if this here is true, I want to be saved, and I accept Jesus into my heart right now!!! Yea, now that there is goooood stuff!
Why do some believe and others don’t? I don’t know! I do know that God draws every single person on this Earth. Jesus said “if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me” He compares it to “serpent on the pole in the desert” Look and Live, look and live!! Man I got to think if I was laying in the sand with a poisionous snake bite, I would have at least given it a shot, and had a look, yet many did not and died in that hot desert. Don’t miss it, Jesus thinks it’s very important, because He compares that with His own crucifiction. Just as everyone in that desert had an opportunity to Look and Live, Jesus says “I will draw ALL men unto me” not some, a few, the chosen, that’s calvinism boys, you want the “real” thing the “real” Jesus come to me “I draw all men” now wait, not all will be saved, Yes correct, Jesus says nothing about all of them will be saved, He mereley says He draws all, all have a chance, I love all, I died for all, all sins of all people have been forgiven, but you don’t possess a gift until you take possession of that gift, God says salvation is a gift.
This last paragraph is supposed to be up top, but the message is true whether its at the top or the bottom, and I don’t know how to change it.
You know what’s frustrating about talking to you? You argue on the false premise that I disagree that people have to believe. I don’t disagree with anything you just stated from scripture. Nobody coerced them to not believe. God uses real means by which to accomplish His will: preaching, people, the serpent on the pole, etc… No problem.
The only difference is that you don’t know how people make those decisions. I can answer that with the doctrine of depravity and election. I can explain human nature and why people choose the way they do. You admit, you don’t know. Your belief is incomplete and incohesive. Mine’s not…and I don’t have to turn to ad hominem to bulster my arguments.
People believing and accepting after having been drawn by the Holy Spirit is nothing close to people believing that have been forced to believe.
I submit that if I’m forced to do something then there is no grace evident at all. I’d like to give an example from Hitler’s Germany right here, but that breaks some kind of rule.
Greg: Mr Baptist Man – No drawing is necessary for men to be saved according to you, that’s your theology.
I have said exactly the opposite of that! God has to draw people, because that’s the only way they would come to Him!
Greg: why are you saying that men’s salvation was determined eons ago,
Because the Bible says so: Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world…
Revelation 17:8 …and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.
Greg: Is it Mr Baptist Man? Say you are one of the pre-selects (btw, are you?) your salvation was settled long ago, no drawing, no blood, no bible-reading, no preaching, no good works, no hail calv….Mary’s, none of that matters, there is no need for any of that, why? Because it was pre-selection of you by God quadzillions of years ago.
Well you will say this was His plan. Stupid plan! And can’t be found in the bible, which is what I need to sustain my theology, but calvinists don’t need the bible at all, why? Because everything is pre-determined. You don’t need God’s word, why would you, you are a pre-select…..or not.
That last paragraph is utter stupid folly coming from you as you continue to use ad hominem attacks, straw men and misrepresentations
Mr Baptist Man – Did God pre-select you millions of years ago? I’m assuming the answer is yes. Then the following must be true.
1) No drawing of the Holy Spirit is necessary (see above)
2) No church necessary (see above)
3) No bible necessary (see above)
4) No preaching necessary (see above)
5) No Saviour necessary (see above)
This very foolish belief of calvinism has been taken to its very foolish conclusion. None of the above things are necessary, if the man-made theology of calvinism is true.
1)No drawing of the Holy Spirit is necessary, what for? I’m already programmed, pre-selected, hard-wired for salvation. I can’t “not” accept.
2)Church. What for? It’s all been set in stone, what am I gonna learn? How to get saved? Been there done that dude!! a million years ago.
3) Bible? What are ya gonna do with that, it won’t help anyone to heaven that’s for sure, guess you could rub it in on the unfortunate non-selects, but that would be mean, so what!
4)Saviour? No one needs a Saviour under this man-made theology, what a waste. A Saviour is necessary to save folks from Hell, in your man-dominated, prideful system that was already accomplished, prior to the Saviour’s appearance on Earth.
You answer like a fool. Proverbs 18:2 A fool has no delight in understanding, But in expressing his own heart.
I’ve already said so many times, that we don’t believe nor teach those stupid things you suggest. We believe that church, preaching, Savior, Bible, drawing etc..is all necessary because those are God’s chosen means by which to accomplish His will.
Mr Baptist Man – Yes those things “are” necessary and are God’s chosen means to accomplish His will. You have finally put nearly a whole sentence together that says something truthful, but none of that is necessary for calvinism, why because calvinism says that everyone’s destiny was set in stone long before Jesus even got here the first time, so you either need to believe calvinism or believe the bible. Why would Jesus need to die if I was already saved…….unnecessary, just like I have already stated. What I have done is take this ignorant theology to its only logical conclusion.
Your preaching does no one any good, when you stand before your congregation, those parishioners fates are already sealed. Do you like golf? Stay out on the golf course Sundays because your preaching is accomplishing nothing.
Your logical conclusion is hyper Calvinism, and it’s not what Biblical Calvinists have ever believed. It’s a distortion and denial of what real Calvinism teaches.
Yours is the same logic as letting sin abound because grace does much more abound.
I like you, Greg. You’re a good reminder of why I left ifb and their assanine thinking. It’s been awhile since I’ve heard someone twist the scripture to make their point. You’ve done a standup job of that today. Bravo, mate. Bravo.
Yea I wish you were kidding too, please demonstrate even one place where I twisted scripture.
I stand for a Gospel message contained in the scriptures that is for whosever will. “For God so loved the world that He gave His One and Only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned but whoever does not believe stands condenmed already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.” John 3-16-18
I just wished folks would be honest and evaluate what it is that Jesus is saying, instead of listening to some man tell them what it means!
WIWS – Do you want your sins forgiven,and to spend an eternity in heaven with Jesus? If you don’t want to be condemned please do what Jesus says to do….BELIEVE!!!!!!
WIWS to Mr Baptist Man, Oh Sir I want to go to heaven what must I do to be assured of that …………………………………………………………………………………………….sorry my son there is nothing for you to do, God deteremined your eternal destiny long ago……Smiles, slaps WIWS on the back….Good Luck though!
No thanks…………as Jesus weeps……….
I have no problem with whosoever will…and anyone wo comes to Christ, He will not cast out. All true, and that is what we present to men. He doesn’t refuse anyone who wants Him. You fall short in your theology becuz you don’t understand human nature, the will, or how Gods election in Scripture corresponds. Bottom line is – you have no idea how wicked sinners could want A Holy God. You must cheapen salvation to nothing but a get out of hell free card, or make sin not so bad that man can still desire a holy God in his sinfulness.
Mr Baptist Man – Is desperation starting to creep in on ya? What part of “If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me” don’t you understand? According to your belief system there would be no need to “draw” anyone, rememeber calvinism 101 God predetermined 458,092,887 years ago who was going to Hell or Heaven, the “drawing” of the Holy Spirit plays no role whatever in your man-made system. You don’t get to pick and choose which parts of the bible to believe or not.
That makes no sense. I just explained it Mr. Inconsistent Universalist.
Mr Baptist Man – No drawing is necessary for men to be saved according to you, that’s your theology. If not, why are you saying that men’s salvation was determined eons ago, if that is so. Is it Mr Baptist Man? Say you are one of the pre-selects (btw, are you?) your salvation was settled long ago, no drawing, no blood, no bible-reading, no preaching, no good works, no hail calv….Mary’s, none of that matters, there is no need for any of that, why? Because it was pre-selection of you by God quadzillions of years ago.
Well you will say this was His plan. Stupid plan! And can’t be found in the bible, which is what I need to sustain my theology, but calvinists don’t need the bible at all, why? Because everything is pre-determined. You don’t need God’s word, why would you, you are a pre-select…..or not.
Greg: Mr Baptist Man – No drawing is necessary for men to be saved according to you, that’s your theology.
I have said exactly the opposite of that! God has to draw people, because that’s the only way they would come to Him!
Greg: why are you saying that men’s salvation was determined eons ago,
Because the Bible says so: Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world…
Revelation 17:8 …and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.
Greg: Is it Mr Baptist Man? Say you are one of the pre-selects (btw, are you?) your salvation was settled long ago, no drawing, no blood, no bible-reading, no preaching, no good works, no hail calv….Mary’s, none of that matters, there is no need for any of that, why? Because it was pre-selection of you by God quadzillions of years ago.
Well you will say this was His plan. Stupid plan! And can’t be found in the bible, which is what I need to sustain my theology, but calvinists don’t need the bible at all, why? Because everything is pre-determined. You don’t need God’s word, why would you, you are a pre-select…..or not.
That last paragraph is utter stupid folly coming from you as you continue to use ad hominem attacks, straw men and misrepresentations
The biggest change in my understanding of God and His choosing of His people came about when I viewed the Bible as a constant ONE-themed book laying out the mission of God and not a man centered book all about me and how I can choose Him. It’s not about choosing verses to support my theory better than you can choose verses to support yours. Every cult leader has verses he uses to justify his error. I suggest a sort of “starting over” in your study of His word, reading through the Bible without any preconceived ideas as you would a novel, from beginning to end. The story unfolds and with prayer and open mindedness and illumination from the Spirit I firmly believe that the truth will be evident. The doctrine of election is found more than any other Christian doctrine we hold dear. I think it’s important enough for you to look at it again. I understand the fear of letting go of that control we love so much….you really can’t make me believe Armenianism is anything but that. I submit that if you think you have anything at all to do with your salvation , you are trusting in you…not God for salvation.
WIWK – I’ve been around along time on SFL, first time I’ve seen you here. It’s obvious that you have never followed my posts, because you would know that I follow no man-made theology. Armenianism is closer to my belief than calvinism, but I dont stand for that belief system either. With armemianism it looks as though someone at least glanced at a bible, not so with calvinism, no one that I ever knew of studied the bible and came to the beliefs of calvinsim, it has to be taught. One can’t look at John 3:16 and believe in calvinism, you must be taught “how” to think about it. Well it says “whosoever” Mr Baptist Man, yes but “whosoever” doesn’t “really” mean “whosover.”
Your last statement has me worried. Yes there is something you must do. You must call upon the name of the Lord to be saved. “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” No calling, no salvation.
Didn’t you know it’s not the church’s responsibility to change this wicked world? We’re just supposed to yell at it until Jesus comes and takes us away.
These questions right here have bugged me for so many years and eventually led me to where I am today.
If God loves men and women equally as his children, why are women always viewed as the wicked, seductive trouble-makers?
+100 😥
@formerHACgirl: Maybe because if women told the truth about some of the IFB pastors, they’d be kicked out of the pastorate, so the people must be conditioned not to believe “women”.
If you take the Bible literally (as you claim you do) why do you conveniently ignore Matthew 25:35-46 and Matthew 22:37-40?
Here’s a hint – the fact these verses are in red does not mean they are optional.
There is a corresponding question to ask. Why do you not only ignore these verses but actively condemn those who take them to heart and try to follow them?
Another hint for you. Luke 17: 26-29 are also in red.
Luke 17:26-29:
26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
And this has to do with what?
I’ll take Sodomy for a 1000 Scorpio:
Luke 17:26-29:
And this has to do with what?
What is: greg’s obsession?
I’ll take Sodomy for 1500 Scorpio
OH, we have an Audio Daily double:
What does this song have to do with the current thread?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIs5StN8J-0&ob=av2e
What is: Absolutely nothing, that is The Jack and Jenny theme song? 😉
Just as you don’t know what my reference refers to, I have no idea what your reference refers to, re-read and still don’t know.
Standing by for enlightenment!
“If if our neighbor doesn’t have enough clothing or food and we do nothing but speak platitudes to them is that enough?”
I’d say James 2 clearly indicates that’s not enough.
Ah, but as I very recently heard taught, it’s only your Christian brother to whom that applies – not the rest of humanity.
To be a disciple of Jesus, do you love (John 13:35) or hate (Luke 14:26) each other?
“If you had 507 people saved last year, where are they now?”
Supposedly, John Wesley (1703-1791) once received a letter from a woman who said, “Mr. Wesley, I couldn’t be happier. I was saved at one of your meetings last night.” Wesley wrote back, saying, “That is wonderful. What did you do today?”
If you have pity for homeless and hungry why do you give them bibles and tracts but no food
If you have never read the Qur’an, the Bhagavad Gita, the Bardo Thodol, or any other “holy” book, and the fact that you know relatively nothing about them, how can you be so sure that you are right?
Their reason for that is the illustration they give about money. If someone works in a bank and they need to know counterfeit money from real money they don’t study counterfeit money, they study real money and how it looks and feels so when they are given counterfeit money they will know it doesn’t feel right.
In the same way the fundy will not read or even look at other “holy” books, they just study the Bible. But it behooves us to study into other faiths so we know what they believe. The fundy pastor is always so scared of this though, they think if their members study other things they’ll leave the church (and take their tithe with them) and join some other religion. They sure don’t have much confidence in their members having any intelligence do they? 😕
Or any confidence in the power of the Bible to speak truth.
I would have no problem if MoG actually studied the Bible. But most of time all we hear is two or three verses read during the service, then the preacher may or may not use them in their weekly rant against whatever.
What a silly argument. You’d be better at detecting counterfeit money if you studied both real money and fake money.
They don’t present it for argument’s sake – they present it as fact.
In a nutshell, the churches are filled with well meaning people, ignorant of their faith and any other faith in the world, but they certain the Bible they hold in their hands is the truth, the inerrant, infallible, inspired truth.
Iron Chariots,
That is true, there are a lot of fools in churches who don’t understand what they believe, but they think they believe it to be true.
But if they believe something to be true, even if they don’t understand why, and it is true, it doesn’t make it untrue. I believe that the sky is blue…don’t ask me to understand the scientific reasons why…I don’t know, but the sky is blue and my ignorance of why doesn’t make the sky green.
Here is one I would like to ask: You refer to Judaism frequently in your sermons. Why don’t you read Jewish author or two so you don’t spread quite so much misinformation about their religion ❓
If Baptist theology is so superior why do we have so many sexual deviants abusing their authority to gratify their desires in our churches? Baptist and Catholics, both seem to have the same lack of power in controlling their clergies’ sexual impulses. Things that make me go, “hmmm”.
This!
I agree, but notice with the catholic pervs, they are mostly “homosexual” (just boys being abused) whereas the Baptist pervs go after mostly girls. I would agree to use the same ammo to dispatch both kinds of pervs.
Choosing to sexually abuse children is not a sexual orientation like wanting to have consensual sex with adults. Don’t confuse the two.
Both boys and girls have been abused in both Catholic and fundy churches. Horrible no matter where it happens.
Well Naomi tell us why nearly all of the priest/pervs went for boys (don’t think I’ve heard of one abused girl) and the fundies went for mostly girls (I have heard of a couple of boys)
You know what I’m saying is true.
Actually, greg, I know that you’re wrong. I’d encourage you to go read Ms.blog, part of Ms. Magazine. Today’s article is about some Roman Catholic clergy’s abuse of girls and women.
ok I can’t always be wrong about everything. Does anyone here remember a few years ago, dozens of cases of abuse of boys were uncovered, the abuse being foisted on these youngsters by pedophilic, homosexual catholic priests? Ok recalling that time, to my knowledge I don’t remember one case where “any” little girls were involved, am I right or wrong?
I think they have bought into the mentality that as long as I am faithful its all good. Never mind if I am effective. The “hundreds” may be saved each year, but the fundy church is dying out and they think that screaming and law abiding and plastic joy are what God really wants from them. As they say to us, “Where is the fruit?” 😥
One of my favorites right now, which is read either every mass or at least during communion once per month, beginning with “For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you”
How is it that if none of the other denominations are discerning when it comes to eating and drinking the body of Christ, we don’t see wholesale sickness and death in their ranks. (1Cor11:30)
Reposted on my facebook… Good stuff.
Ok, just because I know the inevitable troll will be along soon, I’ll just go ahead and steal their thunder. How dare you all question the motives of the MOG? You all know he has special insight into the word of God. How dare you foster the spirit of rebellion and disobedience. And now queue the sound that Charlie Brown’s mother made.
greg has aleady been here correcting us on theology and homosexuals.
He still has gay on the brain? Should really look into thinking about other things from time to time.
He only does that because he wants the attention. If he didn’t have a schtick, he would just be another member of the group. Quite honestly, the whole argumentative thing is just worn out.
I beg to differ, not when the President of the United States came out on May 9, 2012 in support of “homosexual marriage” This being the “precise” reason why 5 cities were destroyed at the southern end of the Dead Sea.
I’m just getting warmed up!
“I’m just getting warmed up”.
No joke. It’s a act I’d be pretty embarrassed to have done, but no doubt you’ll keep touting yourself as the lone virtuous soul being oppressed by all the sinners.
“Sometimes God’s children should be seen and not heard.” -Petra
+10 😆
why ask why?
😛
If you believe that only the substitutionary atonement of Christ can save, why do you keep trying to beat sin out of your children?
There were no professional Christians recorded in the first 150 years of the church. Many writings, such as the Didache, stated that if any travelling preacher asked for money, that proved he was a false prophet. The early Christians were not perfect, but they were certainly a “community”. They had to be, persecutions were common. Based on my reading of scripture, tithing, salaried clergy, and giving to the “church” instead of “ministering to the saints” are three clear errors.
Preachers yell because they think that the open-air preachers of yore yelled a lot, so we should duplicate that in our enclosed tight-knit structures. Being yelled at from ten feet away was one of the strangest things I ever experienced in my new life as a Christian.
I’m a pastor with a salary, sorry to disappoint you.
But there is good reason to have a salaried pastor if it’s possible:
1 Corinthians 9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
but not a “Lone” pastor
And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they had believed. Acts 14:23
This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. Titus 1:5-6
Amen Don!
We believe in plurality! Mutual accountability, submission and authority.
Gods way of reducing leadership hoarding.
I applaude your biblical approach to the way a church ministry should be done!
um, george? applaud…. sans the “e”…
come’on Don, you know I took the Dan Quayle cource in advanced spelling… potatoe duh!
😛
Actually, Reforming, if you read the entire chapter of I Corinthians 9, “they which preach the gospel” refers to evangelists or missionaries, not individuals who stay in the same city their entire lives. I know pastors today are salaried; just about every one of them is. This is why the doctrine of tithing is preached, to support the salaries and ministerial vision of the clergy while the pew-warmers exercise little to no spiritual gifts.
Acts 20:33-35 shows that Paul’s original vision for elders in the church was not to be supported by the labors of others, but was, in fact, even to be able to contribute to the support of others!
Hey I would agree with all that…
I don’t demand tithes either..I preach New Testament grace giving. What a person believes God will have him give, he determines to give it and do so cheerfully as an act of worship, not obligation.
Oh ya, I forgot to mention this one:
1 Timothy 5:17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.
The word honor has monetary meaning attached to it if you study it out.
I would refer you to the ideas of Jon Zens and Frank Viola. No offense to you in your office of overseer, Reforming Baptist. Plurality is certainly something to be commended.
I just got a book by Viola called “Finding Organic Church”…I’ll be checking it out.
*If we are all sinners then why is my list of sins so much worse than your own?*
Who says yours are or were worse?
1Ti 1:15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
*If God own the cattle on a thousand hills then why do you constantly beg for my money to build His buildings?*
They build too many lavish buildings in Christiandom, I’d like to see that money used in a more godly fashion then to build another 100 million dollar megachurch.
*If Jesus is so kind and gracious, then why do those who claim to follow him better than anyone else seem so petty and cruel? *
I’ve talked about this myself and ASKED the same question.
http://galatiansfour.blogspot.com/2010/05/mean-christians.html
Many SAY they follow Jesus when they do not, or they follow the spirit of the antichrist.
*If works do not save us then how do they then sanctify us?*
The Holy Spirit sanctifies us.
*If you had 507 people saved last year, where are they now?*
I didn’t witness to that high a number [well IRL]. It’s a problem when the focus is on the numbers like that. That means a person is more busy bringing glory to themselves.
*If if our neighbor doesn’t have enough clothing or food and we do nothing but speak platitudes to them is that enough?*
No it is not. It means you are failing in duty as a Christian, to just say nice words and let the person starve. It makes a person a hypocrite. Obviously someone like that is not listening to a conviction by God but to their own selfishness.
*If fundamentalism is changing the world then why is the world so spectacularly unchanged?*
The majority of fundamentalist churches are falling away with the rest of them and being infiltrated by the deceivers, politicos and Dominionist movement as a whole. Too many people are being sadly deceived, and led down false paths.
http://galatiansfour.blogspot.com/2010/12/falsehoods-and-falling-away-in.html
This world is supposed to get WORSE not better too. Let the Dominionists dream of their political Utopia and 7 kingdom mandates.
*If you love God and God loves the whole world then why can’t anybody see His love in you*
I hope they can but I am only human, I hope they can have their own relationship with God and know Him.
Great replies! Many will agree with you here. Unfortunately, there are some people on this site are not looking for truth, they’re looking for an opportunity to vent their anger and feel good that there are others who are just as angry as they are. Fundyism is an easy target for which to discredit Christianity.
Venting our anger? Yes, perhaps. In a safe place among others who have been wounded by the very institution and people who promised security and love. When you realize the emperor not only has no clothes, but he’s stolen yours while you served him, you may feel the need for healing. This blog provides that, and it’s a testament to Christianity that anyone here has maintained even a shred of belief after the abuses some have suffered. Indeed, the great majority here still openly praise God and proclaim the Grace they have received, DESPITE the IFB.
Have a little truth, yourself.
Stony,
Been there done that in Fundyland…been angry too…sinned a lot with my mouth and my spirit in the process.
I love it when you ask a tough question, and they begin their reply with “that’s a very good question!”, which is code for “I don’t have the foggiest idea!”
Or even better, they follow it up with, “But an even better question is, ‘Is blah-de-blah-blah unity not dissent blah giving Satan control blah blah etc., etc., etc.?'”
Another universal question: Why did I subscribe to email updates on this post? 😕
I never subscribe to them anymore. I did it once. Maybe if all the comments were substantial and thoughful I would.
Why do some fundies bash Calvinism?
It goes back to the Sovereignty issue. Doctrines of Grace declare the Sovereignty of God over all his creation and the Fundies will have no one rule over them and their free will. The freedom to choose puts one on par with God. You know, the echo from Eden… “Choose” to eat and you shall be as gods.
The Doctrines of Grace trample on man’s godhood and that is not acceptable at all.
It also would kill all the numbers of false converts that “get saved” since Calvinism teaches that God must make someone born again. The Fundy hates Calvinism because they believe in decisional regeneration. You can born yourself again by repeating the sinners prayer. Thats how they get 507 baptisms that disappear.
Fundies disagree with Calvinism because it is viewed as too imbalanced, which it is. Fundamentalists are too decisional-centered in their thinking as well. Neither system is accurate. There is a meeting of the minds involved with God’s salvation. Seeing as God’s foreknowledge implies predestination, Calvinists speak of the elect according to God’s will. Well, God has clearly revealed that He elects according to a willingness to believe (the unwillingness to believe does not have to do with inability, i.e. “depravity”, but with humility, i.e. “pride”).
Election is a great mystery that all fundamentalists and (some) Calvinists distort.
Please explain what you mean by “imbalanced”.
Here’s where I did not like reformed theology, as I was actually exposed to it prior to fundamentalism. They taught that regeneration takes place before a man believes the gospel. That is to say, man is so completely depraved in the fall that he can’t even bring himself to believe the truth when it is right in front of his eyes. God MUST regenerate the individual predestined to salvation in order for him to believe. I disagree with that notion, thus I hold the Calvinist definition of depravity to be imbalanced. I believe that men do not believe because of pride, not because of inability.
Yet scripture is very specific when it come to man’s ability to conprehend the things of God in his natural, unregenerate condition.
1 Corinthians 2
10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.
Romans 3, Psalm 14, Psalm 53. It is not merely a matter of man’s volition but his inability to know God or the things of God outside of God’s work of Grace in his heart.
I don’t see the spiritual things Paul is referring to in his epistles as anything other than what Christians are to abide in after receiving the Holy Spirit. Once you receive the Holy Spirit, you are a new creature, old things pass away, and the natural man cannot know of this new birth or the things that accompany it. We both agree on this.
It is a never-ending argument, with points being made on both sides. I don’t disparage reformed theologians, because saying God is sovereign certainly seems like a good position to take. God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, got Jonah where he needed to be, and miraculously stopped Paul on the road to Damascus, all of which are perfectly understandable in preaching the sovereignty of God.
Yet, Jesus marveled at men’s unbelief. Paul and John have verses that state that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. Luke 13…”O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!”
Thus, I don’t think God is sovereign in the conversion of the soul because it seems from scripture that this is the one area of the universe in which He allows for the battle to take place.
I hate using the Old Testament to make a point, but I’ve always loved this verse: “For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.” Isaiah 66:2.
I stick to my view that belief in the gospel has to do with volition rather than inability while agreeing with Calvinists that man did not choose to accept Jesus Christ as his saviour. Man must “choose” to humble himself, and God will reveal Himself to that man. Repentence towards God (us) and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ (God).
I just wish that I could find “one” calvinist on planet Earth that knew anything about Grace.
The big guy in the sky “forcing” folks to do his bidding, and forcing them to be saved has nothing to do with grace, and everything to do with an intelligent man many years ago doing some dreaming.
Question for the day. Why would men and women leave a man-dominated faith? (fundyism) ….and turn to another man-dominated faith?….calvism
I call folks to wade out into grace, may all men be liars and God be true. Jesus means what He says and says what He means “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved” That’s grace, that’s God’s plan……………..or you can hunker down in the corner and pull leaves off of 4-leaf clovers and “wish” that you could be saved.
“Choose you this day whom you will serve” ……sounds like a choice to me…….but I’m not that smart, oh but I know a wonderful Saviour!!
Greg, you are a liar because you continue to misrepresent your opponents view in order to slander them. Just because you think “draw” means “force”, and “elect” means “robot” and “sovereign” means “monster”; doesn’t mean that we believe that or explain it that way. Those are your conclusions because you are a rebel who refuses to believe what the Bible says about election. The only way you can oppose it is pit the Bible against itself by denying the texts that clearly teach it.
What you’re doing is what the typical fundy does that this sight mocks – he uses intimidation tactics to silence or embarrass his opponent, he slanders and misrepresents those he disagrees with to exonerate himself.
Mr Baptist Man – I won’t stoop your level and call you a liar, but you are misguided for sure. You cannot support calvinism from the bible. When the bible says clearly “Choose you this day whom you will serve” That is as valid now as it was when it was written, and it entails a choice, so get over yourself and your pride, confess your sin of pride and bow at that precious Saviour’s feet.
“This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.” 1 Timothy 2:3
Mr Preacher Man I know we have been into it, and I know I have been nastier than necessary, forgive me, I do get excited over my Savior and His plan of Redemption for mankind, but let me say along with the scripture I too simply want all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.
I will stand by my posts and even now declare the absolute sovereignty of God over all his creation. I declare that God is not dependent on the will or the choices of man. God does not react to the actions or will of his creation. God declares and it is so. Who are we to dictate terms to God?
Who is equal to God so that they can say that they decided to choose him? The very fact of our sin negates our ability to choose God or the things of God. Unless God does a sovereign work of grace in one’s heart and life they cannot choose God. That is the real problem with the sovereignty of God, it shows one that they are not in control, they do not rule their own destiny. They will not have this man, Jesus Christ, rule over them. They attempt to limit God by making him subject to the choices of the individual.
Is God not the Potter and we the clay? Is God not the author and finisher of our salvation? Who can counsel God? Is he not the LORD?
We pick around here, have some fun and laughs and sometimes are snarky to a fault… but I am convinced beyond all doubt that God is Sovereign over all his creation and that God’s will trumps the will of man. It is not a choice or a decision to “accept” Jesus’ offer that condemns or justifies anyone, because we are all sinners, all condemned already until God does a work of grace in our hearts and lives.
If not for Grace I would still be under the weight of condemnation, still an enemy of God. But because of Grace I am a son, in Christ I am an heir. Because of Grace I am Free in Christ! Because of the finished work of Christ I am no longer a slave to sin, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Don’t tell me I don’t know anything about Grace!
Should have been more clear. Doctrines of grace is more of what I was referring to, which is essentially calvinism, of course I completely reject that. Just “Grace” you probably know quite abit about, I agreed with most of your last paragraph.
Mr Preacher Man – Meet Don, You can learn alot from him about calvinism…………..nothing about grace but alot about your man-made system of theology. He’s one of those I talked about earlier, I actually have to read his posts twice before I respond.
Mr Baptist Man….sorry!