131 thoughts on “Signs of The Times”

    1. Wow and I’m even in San Diego right now. Normally on Eastern time zone so I am very proud of myself!

  4. There’s passive-aggressive…and there’s just flat out aggressive. :shudder: I’m sure they have a wonderful, vibrant outreach program. 🙄

    1. I had the exact same thought as soon as I saw the picture:
      “Well, nobody can accuse them of being passive-aggressive. They’re just aggressive-aggressive.”

  6. Oh well – just trying to cross one more thing off of my bucket list…I guess now I’ll have to move on to the next item um let’s see that would be going to Ladies Jubilee in pants and carrying my Kindle ESV!

      2. Remember when the security guards at HAC so graceously escorted the UPS woman off the campus because she had the audacity to show up wearing PANTS? She should have asked UPS for a uniform that was a skirt for the times she might have wandered onto the crazy-campus.

        1. My Mom would say that’s a case of “cutting off your nose to spite your face.” If you don’t let UPS deliver your packages, who does it hurt? Hint: not UPS.

          Oh, well, you can always let Federal Express or the U.S. Postal Service do all your deliveries– except that both of those outfits have trouser-wearing female carriers, too. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that a dress is not the safest, most practical, or most modest clothing for the kind of work they do.

        3. Our pastor used to say, “Cutting off your nose to SMITE your face.” He was kindof dumb.

  7. No, no they’re not wonderful people. Voegtlin is a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour …

    Oh, wait, I think that should read Satan.

    Never mind. Same difference.

  8. If that is the Fairhaven I think it is, no, they are horrible people. Led by a monster.

    1. Really!? I thought he was one of the early ones that came out against Jack Hyle’s issues.

      I really don’t know that much about him or Fairhaven.

      1. IMO, the reason for his feelings against Jack Hyles had more to do with jealousy and rivalry, than any sense of justice. Imagine, if you yourself wish to be a demigod, and you wind up not far enough away from the likes of Jack Hyles!

  9. I actually grew up here. My parents still attend here. This anti-Biblical arrogance is very typical. Very very sad to say, because I love my parents and most of the people I was raised with. Btw, CNN didn’t even scratch the surface of what has really gone on.

    1. “CNN didn’t even scratch the surface of what has really gone on.”

      Oh? Care to tell us more?

    2. I am so sorry for the pain you must live with from that horrendous teaching. I watched the CNN video last week and felt physically ill at the evil masquerading as holy piety there.

      If you know any of the young people in CNN’s expose who spoke out about their treatment at Fairhaven, please let them know that I thank them with a full heart. They stand out as shining, courageous heroes to me in my struggle through the aftermath of an upbringing among the filth of Fundamentalism’s lies.

    4. David and I grew up there together, and he is right. The surface hasn’t been scratched. That would take an enormous amount of time.

    1. I haven’t independently confirmed this but this was sent to me as a screen shot of the church’s website shortly after the CNN story:

      It was taken down soon afterward.

      1. If they actually did have it up, they should have left it up. Why hide from what they were all too happy to portray in the CNN video? Besides, the paddle would get much more use than any other gift they could give to a visitor, like a Bible for instance. (sarcasm font)

      2. I like the caption: ‘CNN Promotes Fairhaven Paddle’. Any publicity is good publicity I suppose.

  12. Context? We don’t need no stinkin’ context!

    Psalm 50:16-23
    16But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth?

    17Seeing thou hatest instruction, and casteth my words behind thee.

    18When thou sawest a thief, then thou consentedst with him, and hast been partaker with adulterers.
    19Thou givest thy mouth to evil, and thy tongue frameth deceit.

    20Thou sittest and speakest against thy brother; thou slanderest thine own mother’s son.

    21These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes.

    22Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver.

    23Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God.

    It seems that Psalm 50 is a denunciation of religious hypocrites. They are trying to make it sound like God is going to tear random passerbys in pieces. The truth is, they are more likely to be the target themselves.

    1. As someone here said, never read a Bible verse. Instead, read the whole chapter (or the whole Psalm), if not the whole book of the Bible.

      It’s interesting that they cite a passage about people who speak piously while they do evil, apparently with no sense of irony at all.

  13. How incredible that they’d put up a verse like this on their church and expect visitors to want to come! Whatever happened to something positive like John 3:16? 😮

    1. The threat of being torn to pieces is just to get visitors in the door.
      Then they’ll stay in the hope of getting a souvenir paddle. 😐

    2. I suppose it’s fair warning that they’re not from the happy-clappy branch of fundydom.

      2. They could be from the happy-slappy-whappy-slappy branch…some people are into that. 😆

        2. Keep the “happy” out of it. People who are whappy-slappy probably aren’t very happy.

  16. To be fair, I’m not sure if the Fairhaven in the above picture is the notorious Fairhaven from CNN’s broadcast.

    1. It is the same church. I went there from ages 4 to age 13. They are abusive, and completely twist the Bible… They do hurt children…. I’ve got 3 years of therapy under my belt to prove it! 😉

      1. Sara, I don’t deny what happened at Fairhaven. I just have my doubts that the picture in the post is the Fairhaven in Chesterton, IN where Roger Voegtlin is pastor.

        1. Stan –

          The church discussed on the CNN show is the same as Roger Voegtlin’s church. They did actually put the picture of GT holding the paddle on their website for a few days. The sign – yes, once again, Fairhaven in Chesterton, IN. I know all of this for a fact because, I was on the CNN interview. I protested at the church last Sunday evening and saw the sign myself.

          Hope that helps clear things up! 🙂

          Catherine

        2. I just realized you’re THAT Catherine.
          Thanks for weighing in here. Blessings to you and your brother.

        1. Thank you! I’m lots better and lovin’ the free life of GRACE! I think we all have our scars from the fundies… 🙁

        2. Yes, but the good thing about scars is that, the more years away from the injury, the more the scars fade away. It DOES get better! 😀

      3. Sara’s picture identification is good enough for me. She went there for 9 years, so I trust her to know the building when she sees it.

      2. Side Note: There is a group that is protesting Fairhven and during their protest they saw the sign and took a picture of it. They posted it on faceboook and we’ve all had a good chuckle over it!

        During the protests Fairhaven has turned on it’s sprinkler system and made sure their bells were ringing loudly. However, in Christian love they did offer everyone cookies and KOOL-AID. 😯
        Thankfully, no one took them up on the offer!

        1. Turning on sprinklers is an old stunt to pester protesters. But wouldn’t ringing bells just draw more attention to the protest?

    1. George switched my words around. “at the church” goes after “somebody”. 😉

  19. That’s right up there with the sign on the church down the road: If God can bless American, He can judge America.

    1. I like the one at the local Church of the Nazarene. It went something like, “WE BELIEVE THAT EVERYTHING GOD MADE IS GOOD, BUT WE ARE HAVING TROUBLE EXPLAINING MOSQUITOES.”

      Whoever maintains their sign bought multiple sets of letters and actually practices good spelling and punctuation.

    1. So that entire single-spaced page of densely-packed verbiage comes down to “No. We’re not.” ???

      1. They appear to have cut and pasted an article about accreditation from somewhere else. But yes, it apparently boils down to “No, we’re not accredited.”

        1. Faire Wyfe just read their screed, and observed that she felt sorry for anyone taking the Elementary/Secondary Education courses that tried to get a job at a (gasp) Public School… Something about being handed a whole list of courses that the unfortunates would have to take from an *Accredited* Institution…

        2. Let me sum up:

          No, we’re not accredited. No, we have no intention of getting accredited. College accreditation is of the devil. It is a slippery slope down which we will not slide. Accreditation proves nothing. It’s just a piece of paper. You don’t need to transfer to another college because we’ve got all you’ll ever need to teach at our Christian church for below poverty level salaries. Wait – can you organize a fellowship dinner?

  21. My name is Justin Cox and I am a full time itinerant preacher.

    I am an old fashined, fundamental, King James Bible embracing, Independent Baptist.

    I am also deeply disgusted at the fact that most of what is pointed out on this site about the faults of us “fundies” is 100% right.

    From extreme lack of content and proper use of context in preaching, story telling, rants and rambles, hero worship, gimmics, silly pushing of personal preference, deadness in church “worship”, lack of reverence in the pulpit and arrogance to moral sin, double standards, shallow thinking and the list goes on and on.

    But what disturbs and crushes my heart more and more with nearly each and every post and comment i read, is that “we” are all lumped together. A lot of the “stuff fundies like” are things i detest. My heart burns for so many who have obviously gone to the exact opposite extreme of those they were doubtless hurt and or pushed over the irritation edge by. I wish the people who represent the core of this site could see and go to some of the churches God has allowed me to see and be a part of. Sure, there are high standards, hard yet SCRIPTURAL preaching, a few overused cliche’s and one liners here and there, and people with problems like us all, but God is real and He is exalted.

    I am an Independent fundamental Baptist not because of association or guilt, but because of my stand and beliefs. My heart is full as i type and i dont know how to articulate all thats in my heart. I have as much confidence in the (mainstrem) IFB movement as i do in a bowel movement buti am not a part of the “movement”. I am a church member and an IFB by conviction. My Bible B is much bigger than by baptist B.

    My hearts desire is for God to be glorified, souls to be saved, Gods people to be helped and Gods men to be encouraged.

    Please, please do not make the mistake of lumping us all into the same category. Doubtless there are probably many things i would disagree with many of you on, but i disagree with my own sin every day. Please pray for me as i pray for ya’ll.

    1. Sir,

      I want you to know that I do not consider all independent baptists to be the same. I left a church that was borderline cultish and covering up the prolonged sexual abuse of children by one of the ministry staff. I left there angry at the independent baptist movement. God lead me to another independent baptist church where the grace of God was very real. The pastor is a kind, humble man with a heart to serve. Unfortunately, I had to move for work reasons but I keep in my mind that all independent baptists are not the same. There are some good ones out there.

      1. Sorry Justin, but I cry foul. I’ve seen too much, and I’m too cynical.

        You’re probably a nice guy. Looking at your website, you have a beautiful family, and I’d even believe genuine smiles. I think you really believe what you said up there. And for that, I thank you.

        But if you think the main problems the wounded staggering sheep here are bleating about are “…extreme lack of content and proper use of context in preaching, story telling, rants and rambles, hero worship, gimmics, silly pushing of personal preference, deadness in church “worship”, lack of reverence in the pulpit and arrogance to moral sin, double standards, shallow thinking…” then you have no idea the wretched pit of heresy and hurtfulness you speak from. What drove me from fundamentalism was not the low-hanging fruit you mention. It was the rampant abuse. It was the child-beating. It was the failure of men to stand up for the poor, vulnerable, and weak. Women told to stay in abusive relationships and “just submit”. Children told they were being rebellious while ignoring the grievous harm their parents were doing to them. The lives I have seen ruined by Fundamentalism are legion – and mine was nearly one of them.

        But if you want to talk about one of the relatively minor things, fine. If you think the King James is even a *good* translation, you rely on tradition rather than truth. When I finally found a more accurate translation (NASB, if you must know) I couldn’t put the Bible down; I drank it in; I reveled in it. I understood God’s precious Word for the first time. I’m no dummy, I have a terminal degree, and I can’t understand much of the KJV enough to apply it to my life.

        If you think that “Independent Fundamental Baptist” just means that you believe the Bible to be true, you are sadly mistaken. There is an entire subculture of control that goes along with that label. May God show it to you.

        I tried to listen to your latest sermon on your website. I got about 8 minutes in, and I couldn’t handle the yelling any more. It’s too painful. Why do you yell at God’s sheep?

        But in the meantime, I ask that you not beat that sweet boy of yours, that you call the police FIRST when a woman confides in you that she is being beat by her husband or molested by her father, and that you be kind to your neighbor – even the gay and Muslim ones.

        And if you do that, you’ll find yourself pushed out of IFB-dom by those very people you defend. It happened to me. May God allow it to happen to you too.

        Brother Justin, you *are* one of them. I say this in love. Because until you understand that, there is no hope for you to break free from this menace called Fundamentalism. Where you walk, I once did.

        And if you are as earnest and honest as you say you are, then I have faith God will lead you out, just as He did me. And He is so good.

        2. Very well put Clara, I could not have said this better. The words you spoke are so true and wise. That preacher may be sincere, but he is sincerely wrong. You are so right, if he is as earnest and honest as he claims, he will examine his beliefs and conducts within the church (IFB cult) he will be led out of it. That is exactly what happened to me. I am free and feel more alive than ever because I found freedom from religious abuse and intolorance. A year ago that church sign quoting that verse would have troubled me. Today I laugh at it and know how ignorant they are.

      2. Good morning!

        During the past month I was interviewed by CNN, 3 newspapers and 2 radio shows. I grew up in Fairhaven, Roger Voegtlin is my adopated dad.

        In everyone one of my interviews I made it VERY VERY clear that I have nothing against churches, regardless what denomination. I think churches are a wonderful place where people can go to worship God with their family and friends. A pastor of a church is to lead and guide the members. The problem with FH is, they don’t have a pastor, they have a preacher. A man who thinks he is God.

        I have also stated very clearly that I am not against discipline. I believe that it is an obligation and a right God gave each and every parent.

        What breaks my heart about Fairhaven is the abuse – abuse in many forms.

        I do not lump all IFB churches in the same category as Fairhaven and Voegtlin. There are wondeful and amazing IFB churches out there.

        So, rest assured, “Apatheticr whatever”, you will NEVER hear me stand up against churches. The ONLY church you will hear me stand up against is Fairhaven! 🙂

        1. Hello Catherine!

          I am so sorry for what happened to you. I wish you had a better childhood and a more loving family. Thank you for speaking out and being so strong. You inspired many people to start talking about this, and that is beautiful!

    2. I also know humbly, godly people who are IFB. I too am heartbroken when I see people turn away from God completely.

      Sometimes I have to overlook things people say on this site about pastors, because I know they’re not talking about my husband. It’s sort of like in the OT when the prophets would say, “Israel has departed from following the Lord.” Now probably there were SOME who still worshipped God, but in general the population had turned from God. So this site deals with general tendancies and specific examples we know to prove our opinion, even though most of us know exceptions to the rule. There comes a time when hidden sin and foolishness must be pointed out. I pray that repentance will come to the house of God and that believers will humble themselves and learn to follow not only outward holiness but inward transformation and love toward God and others.

      1. “Sometimes I have to overlook things people say on this site about pastors, because I know they’re not talking about my husband.”

        Your husband would not have allowed you to participate on this forum if everyone here was talking about your husband. There is never a need for an IFBer to take anything personally unless the statements are true about you, him or her.

        1. Where do you get the idea an adult woman needs her husband’s permission to post something on an Internet site?

        2. Think Monipenny means, ‘if it were about you, you wouldn’t be allowed to read it, because that’s what fundies are like.’

        3. Big Gary, I assume that you are familiar with the power control ruling dominant men within the IFB that SEPERATE his flock especially his family from bias contratictory sources of information that degrades his charactor. That is what I am talking about. I am all too familiar with this IFB tactic. IFB preacher wives (not that I have ever been one) must walk on thin ice and toe the line for her husbands reputation and the reputation of the church.

        4. I am not directing this at ‘Pastors wife’ for she evidently is free to search the web and contribute to forums like this without fear of her husbands disapproval. That is why most contents of this site is not about preachers like her husband, for he apparently is normal compared to the majority of IFB cult leaders. I know personaly of 2 IFB preachers that do not appear to fit the mold of the cult mentality, they are teachers rather than preachers. Yet, I know plenty more IFB preachers that should be locked up away from civilization.

        5. Yeah, I knew what you meant!

          I was attempting to tell the evangelist that he shouldn’t let our comments about fundamentalists upset him just because there are exceptions to our depictions. The exceptions do not destroy the validity of our criticism.

    3. The Independent Baptist Church that I was first in is not like the ones we look at here. Neither was the second one. But I also see that the narrowness and putting tradition over God’s intent and Scripture. I encourage the good, but there is too much baggage for me to go back.

    4. Some of us have not gotten away from fundamentalism altogether. My husband and I have recently left our church as we could no longer stomach the pastor’s worship of jack hyles and other unbiblical doctrines he held. However we knew we still believed in a lot of the things fundamentalists believe in, such as the King James Bible. Some here read other versions and that’s fine, but for us we will retain our belief in the KJB. There are other IFB doctrines we are slowly moving away from, but I think we’ll always believe the KJB is the word of God.

      We’ve been attending another church for the past several weeks that holds to the standards we still believe. We had a long meeting with the pastor and his wife last night and they are on the same page we are on most issues. We feel comfortable there. I’m amazed that God has led us to another church so quickly. I thought we’d have to shop around for a while. I think we’ll be joining very soon. This church does not have the cultic aspects of our former church.

      God bless you brother in your ministry. 🙂

    5. My parents were missionaries from an IFB church. On deputation, my family visited hundreds of IFB churches in the midwest. I can’t point to one of those churches that didn’t have a pastor with 100% of the power. I remember so many pastors fully willing to gossip with my father and judge (when the microphones were off) other missionaries that they were dropping because they weren’t “local church”. Or talk badly about preacher so and so because he wasn’t down with whatever fad doctrine was going around at the time. Every IFB church I’ve attended (4) has covered up a sexual scandal. It is a cult. It is set up as a cult. It’s a sinking ship. Also, you’re a man. There is no way that you could understand the hidden terror that goes on behind closed doors in these churches. You’re at the top of the food chain in Fundystan, you’re almost untouchable compared to the women and children in this hierarchy. You must consider that there is a lot of stuff that goes on that you will never know about. You visit these churches as an evangelist, you’ll never detect the oppression,and fear we were all taught to mask. But there are thousands of people coming forward that are saying how fooled everyone on the outside was about their churches. How everyone says “that other church is crazy”, but it was happening in their own church. You think wonderful IFB churches are plentiful. I think you live in a naive world. What a waste of “grief” and emotion on your part. All because you don’t want to be lumped in with people who look, act and profess to believe exactly like you.

      1. Nicely said, MKXcomm.

        It’s hard to see the wheel of power when you’re the one on the top of it. But for anyone else on the sides or bottom, it’s painfully obvious. I’ve been in 4 IFB churches at various times. I was abused in all of them. I can’t even walk into a church building, no matter what the denomination, without having panic attacks now. Men in suits make me want to vomit even if I know they’re just business men and not IFB. I know that there are IFB people out there who aren’t bad, but those are the ones that will either be forced to morph into the IFB or be forced to leave because no one can stay there for long without one or the other happening.

    6. When I lump fundies together as I often do, I do mean the real lunkheads. I do know good ones exist. I personally feel you’d be better off in a (IMO) better denominational or non-denominational setting, but you make those choices yourself, and the ones that stay & do well are very honorable. The sane ones sure look like a dying breed most of the time.

      1. Oh my gosh, RobM. That visceral reaction akin to a panic attack at the sight of one resembling one’s torturer is no stranger to me; I am so sorry! My abuse was in the Catholic Church, and for a long, long time I couldn’t even see an actor in a Roman collar on TV without chills of fear sweeping over me. At one community meeting I attended an entire row of priests (maybe not even Catholic, but with the garb) sat down behind me and I felt faint. Fortunately, time and Paxil have done their respective jobs, and I have recovered.

      2. Selene, I erroneously replied to RobM below in an attempt to reply to your comment. I blame bifocals and a long day. Hugs if you want them!

    7. Justin,

      I hope you stick around a while. I sincerely do. I have no doubt that genuinely believe what you believe and that you are convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that what you are doing is right. Good. A man with character who isn’t afraid of his convictions is a good thing. However, a man who isn’t afraid of his convictions yet is unwilling to listen to council of older, more seasoned brothers and sisters in Christ isn’t a good thing. I don’t know whether you are unwilling or not, but we may just find out. I’m older and I’m about to give you some advice as a brother in Christ.

      First off, I recognize that not all IFB churches are the same. I also know that there are good people in many IFB churches. After all I still have family in them and they genuinely believe they are doing the right thing and they are good people. With that said, the odds of me stepping foot in a church with the word “Baptist” over it’s door ever again in my life is probably non-existent. Yet, I still hold to many of the Baptist distinctions, though I have also let many of the others go. (If you want more information concerning this I am more than willing to dialogue.)
      Secondly, and this is the main reason why I’m responding to you. I listened to almost half of your sermon, The Man of Might 2 Samuel 23, and I will like to give you some advice that I hope you will listen to carefully. God has given you the ability to speak. Most people cannot get up and articulate themselves clearly in front of a crowd, but you did. With that said however, you need to quit yelling. Just knock it off. That is not preaching and I don’t care what you’ve heard your whole life or what someone has ever told you, it is not preaching. The only reason I made it past 5 minutes of your message is because I wanted to hear if you ever got to any real content. Had I been in attendance when you started this message, I would have walked out within 5 minutes. Teach people Justin, don’t yell at them, or scream to emphasize a point. Actually go and study some historical Baptist preachers (pre-1900’s) and see how they preached and what their communication style was. Jonathan Edwards simply read his sermons in an almost monotone voice, yet he is considered to be the greatest American preacher. Why? Because of his content, not his delivery. That brings me to my second issue with your sermon. You say you want to bring revival and I believe you. However, it will never happen the way you are doing it. Never. Why do I make such a bold statement? Easy, I listened to the first 30 minutes or so of your message and then skipped to the end to hear you close and never heard during that time the key to revival. The key to revival is Jesus Christ. To quote Spurgeon, “A sermon without Christ as its beginning, middle and end is a mistake in conception and a crime in execution.” Justin, your sermon is the same as almost every other message being preached in IFB pulpits by pastors and traveling evangelists. It’s the sermon that has many different titles with texts taken poorly out of the Bible, yet every sermon could have the same title, “Try Harder.” If you boil your message down to a few phrases it would be this; “try harder, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, suck it up so that you can be called a mighty man.” That’s the problem. We can’t. Neither you nor I can do that, nor can anyone else. I can purpose on a Sunday to do better, to live for Christ, to give Him my best, and to “be a mighty man”, but by Monday morning I’ve already failed and I’m already ready to give in because I cannot do it. That’s why I need Christ. That’s why you should be preaching Christ. And yes, you can preach about Christ from the OT. Start by going here http://thegospelcoalition.org/conferences/2011/#media and listen to Keller, Begg, Chandler, and Carson. You can listen to them all, but at least listen to those four. Yeah, I know, they’re not Baptist. It’s ok. They have a lot of great things to say and they actually talk to their audience and teach them.
      As others have said in other comments, I hope you stick around. You will find that we aren’t bad people. You’ll also find that the majority of us just want to love Christ and we have found that the best way to do that was for us to leave fundamentalism far behind. Some others are still in fundamentalism, but they too have the same goal which is loving Jesus.

      Every blessing.

  22. I appreciate your willingness to dialogue…but do you not realize the inconsistencies in your own post??

    “silly pushing of personal preference”…. hmm, like the King James Bible version??

    or your “old fashined” (sic) values??

  23. If you see those as “inconsistencies” thats your business. I know where I stand and precisely why I stand there. Do you know where you do or do not stand and why? God has preserved His word as He promised to and within it urges us to “ask for the old paths”. “Old fashioned” is to me quite different than your average “fundie” traditionalist. Please pray for me. I will probably never post on here again. I crave a fresh touch from God and true power to preach His precious word. Please, please pray for us!

    God Bless,

    Evangelist Justin Cox
    Jeremiah 22:29

    1. Well, I sincerely wish you the best. I hope you recognize more and more of the silliness in the IFB movement (including the KJV onlyism). But we’re all a work in progress…

    2. Justin, a lot of fundies claim they are not of the crazy cultic variety…as a matter of fact, my former cultic fundy pastor preached that very message back in 2004 on a Wednesday night (wouldn’t want the Sunday visitors to hear there are crazy ones out there).

      The IFB’s who claim to me sane and biblical need to stand up, renounce the ones who are cultic BY NAME, name their offenses, and separate from them.

      Stop recommending their colleges.

      Stop attending their conferences.

      Stop attending their camps.

      Stop buying their materials.

      Warn others about them.

      Rick Warren and Joel Osteen might be more convenient targets to preach against, but the terror in their own IFB camp is the one that needs to be targeted.

    3. I like you, Justin Cox. I do, however, think God preserved His word BY giving us the newer English versions once the language had changed enough to make the KJV difficult to understand. Preach on, Brother! 🙂

    4. Justin, you may not like how I would pray for you…

      My goodness, what a fundy post!

      “If you see those as ‘inconsistencies’ thats your business” If they ARE inconsistencies, I would think that very much your business, Justin.

      “I know where I stand and precisely why I stand there” Really? Hey, everybody! Justin’s cornered the market on truth! We don’t need to ask him questions – he already knows the answers and how he got there. Good news, Justin, an application just opened up to be the fourth member of the Trinity. You should sign up.

      “Do you know where you do or do not stand and why?” Good move – cite your own certainty in all things and then toss out a gambit to make a certain kind of person back down. What kind of person? Oh, just the humble one who can admit that he might maybe sometimes possibly be wrong…

      “within it he urges us to ‘ask for the old paths'” And what are these old paths, Justin? Was God telling the writers of holy scripture to ask for a Bible version which would be written 2000 years in their future?

      “I will probably never post on here again” Yup, he’s a drive-by.

      Yeah, I know. Some of you guys have tried to be civil about it. But here’s the skinny – Justin’s no different from the others, so call him out for it.

    1. wow. looking forward to what others have to say about that…um… I guess I will call it a sermon.

    2. After listening to portions of that, I would like to ask Mr. Cox…..why do you feel the need to YELL at people for over an hour? Read up on people’s attention span. Average adult is 20 minutes. After that, people will day-dream. Not to mention the yelling. Why would someone want to subject themselves to an hour of being yelled at?

      1. It’s a form of religious BDSM. I’m bad, so bad, please yell at me and make be better…. berate me and brow beat me. Mental flagellation so that one can have some sort of “experience” to give them the religious fix they need.

        Without the “experience” then why go to church? It validates all the hassle it takes to get up and get to church each Sunday. Running late, the ill mood when you arrive in the parking lot are all washed away by the experiential emotionalism that they get from the religious scourging they set through. By Wednesday they need another “fix” to get them to the next religious task… and the beat (down) goes on. 🙄

        2. Actually there is… “Grace” Wonderful, marvelous, undeserved, freely given Grace.
          Grace breaks the bonds of sin, especially religious sin. Grace liberates the prisoner from their self designed maximum security prison. Grace frees one from the religious emotional slavery to the IFB BDSM masters. Grace is our divine royal pardon!

    3. I listened to some of the preaching and certainly there was a lot of truth there. But it doesn’t need to be communicated by yelling. One of the reasons (among many) I left the IFB was because I couldn’t stand the evangelists anymore. Week-long sessions of yelling memorized speeches finally got to me. I call it Mountain Dew preaching. It will stir you up for awhile but it doesn’t last because there’s very little substance. Plus powerful preaching is often equated with yelling, but yelling often detracts from the message. “Powerful” preaching has the power of the Holy Spirit behind it, not the power of man. It took awhile for me to get used expository sermons without the screaming, but now I feel like I’m getting a well-balanced meal rather than a quick jolt from a soft drink.

      I still don’t know what someone means when they say they’re “old fashioned” of they follow the “old paths.”

      Justin – no need to come here, say what you have to say, and leave. You can stick around and dialogue. We’re not bad people. Many of us here were in fundamentalism a very long time and saw the errors and inconsistencies in the movement. Yes, some have left Christianity, but many of us are still orthodox believers.

      I for one wouldn’t lump all IFB together, but generally speaking it is a man-centered movement and it does seem to me that the crazies are becoming more influential while the more saner ones remain quiet. Over the last couple of years this site has pointed out a lot of the weirdness and foibles in IFBdom in a fun way. But there’s other groups (especially on Facebook) that are a lot more harsher (and act like fundies themselves). But maybe it wouldn’t have come to this if there were “mighty men” (as in your sermon) who stood up against the Hyles’, Jones’, Roloffs, Grays, Sundays, Schaaps, Ruckmans, Voegtlins, etc., who cared about justice, who cared about children, who believed in Christian liberty, who didn’t care what the Sword of the Lord said, who went against tradition if it was unbiblical, who cared more about doing what is right rather than making a name for themselves.

      1. Did you happen to hear the part where the pastor was raised up like a king and it was said that his leadership should be followed no matter how you feel about??

        1. Yes, I finally did listen to most of the sermon and caught that part.

          What I did find astonishing, and Eric mentions this above, is that there is very little or no mention of Christ in that hour long yell-fest. He says something like do all in YOUR power to be that mighty man.

  25. Now if that verse doesn’t give me warm fuzzes and make me want to follow Jesus MORE, I dunno what will!?! :mrgreen: (Note sarcasm.)

  26. @Justin Cox –

    I hope you stick around. I didn’t listen to any of your sermons but I appreciate the tone of your post. 99% of the people that disagree with the general tone of this site are condescending and arrogant. You seem like a genuine guy with a good heart to me. I read a lot of posts that said you yell a lot in your preaching. I grew up in an Independent Baptist, KJV-only, no pants on women, etc church. I’ve probably heard 7,000 sermons in my life and I always wondered why there was so much yelling. When God spoke from the burning bush it was in a “small voice.” I don’t know of anywhere in the NT where Jesus yells. And yet, so many IFB pastors seem to relish yelling. It almost seems to be a competition. Some pastors I’ve heard would make Ray Lewis’ (Baltimore Ravens) pre-game screaming appear to be on sedatives. I’m not criticizing you, just letting you know it’s a curiosity to me. I wish you well and God’s blessing on you, and all of us. Let Jesus Christ be magnified above all things.

  27. When I first saw the pic of the church it made me think that’s where people go to see jousting, while asking a wench to refill their pewter mug with more wine.

  28. I’m so glad there wasn’t an asl interpreter for the deaf within range of your “preaching,” Justin. At Hyles-Anderson College one time, Jackoff Hyles threw a chair from the platform and it nearly hit the ‘terp. I wasn’t in the deaf section, but was sitting across from it and even I heard the screams coming from there. I feel this way, as a deaf/hoh person: If that chair hit me, the terp or anyone else, that is immediate grounds for an arrest. You can make your point without throwing things and injuring people, not to mention the nonstop yelling. Just STFU and make your point NICELY. Rant and rave, foam at the mouth, pound the pulpit and make yourself look foolish isn’t the way to win friends and influence people. I have a Service Dog with me when I attend church and, rest assured, your petting her at the end of the service, after throwing a chair and injuring her won’t get you any awards other than a lawsuit for injuring a Service Animal. Don’t think it won’t stick? In some states, it’s a felony to injure or interfere with a Service Dog team. It’ll get you a nice set of silver cuff links and a nice cell with some nice guys looking for a ‘wife for the night’, Brother.

  29. Why can’t I get any food from their food pantry. It’s my understanding that only members and their families receive food collected from the neighborhoods.

    1. I just did some surface research and if you need food- both the United Methodist and the Lutheran Churches in Chesterton give out food. It looks like the Methodists do a soup kitchen…but they could do more too. The Lutheran church participates in the Angel Food program. Hope this helps!

      1. Angel Food Project has recently gone out of business.

        http://www.hattiesburgamerican.com/article/20110922/NEWS01/109220325/Angel-Food-program-closes

        While the headline attributed their demise to the economy, I found these paragraphs interesting:

        “The ministry ran into trouble in 2009 when the FBI searched its offices and questions were raised about Angel Food’s finances. Board members and former employers also filed a lawsuit accusing the leadership of using the nonprofit as a moneymaking venture.”

        “The lawsuit was settled in 2009 with an exchange of money and promises to make changes to protect the charity’s finances. Angel Food spokesman Steve Savage said no charges were ever filed in the FBI investigation.”

        “The Wingos and one of their sons were on staff at Angel Food. According to tax records, Joe Wingo’s reported salary in 2009 was more than $694,000.”

        I wonder how much $$$ Wingo’s wife and son were taking in. Was it no longer worth it for him to operate under these new terms? I used to like this “ministry” until I found out about their executive salaries.

        1. Oh that is just awful! It makes me sick when people in “ministry” use “ministry” to make money for themselves! Epic Fail Joe Wingo! ❗

          I live in Michigan and our church uses the Food Bank of Eastern Michigan. It’s a government run food program. The church pays $600 and gets $14 worth of food for every dollar spent. I wonder if there is something like that in Indiana-near Chesterton. At least with this program there are checks and balances between the church and the government.

      2. I guess what is upsetting to me is that church will collect food from my neighborhood and it is given to their church families only. Unless you attend that church, you have to go elsewhere for assistance.

        1. This is characteristic of many IFB churches. They believe charity starts – and apparently stays – at home. That’s one thing that brought my husband out of fundamentalism – hearing a fellow pastor say, when asked what obligation the church had to the community, “None at all.” Their giving and helping was all focused on church members as if the church is some kind of exclusive country club only without a golf course.

  30. Justin, you made a reference to following “old paths”. Have you ever traced back these old traditions to see how far back they go? Are the old paths you follow ordained by Jesus and his apostles in the early church or are they man-made traditions created hundreds of years later? I myself am learning that organized church, IFB included, doesn’t equal the life Jesus intended us to live. The NT church met in homes, ate together regularly and pooled their money to feed the poor. Contrast that to today’s church, IFB included, where we meet in buildings often built by going into debt, we see each other only at church where we wear our best clothes and our righteous masks, and where we are coerced into giving our money to help pay down the buildong mortgage instead of helping the down-trodden like we should. Which old paths are you following?

    1. yeah, and the “Old Paths” that are proof texted are even older than the NT.
      http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/jeremiah-6-16.html

      But the IFB sees the “Old Paths” as being the Prohibition era to about 1968 or the Vietnam era. Just about anything pre-hippie era is considered “OP”. It’s a desire to go back to when America was just like “Leave it to Beaver” and “The Andy Griffith Show.” You remember those days, when everything was “Black and White?”

      What are the “Old Paths?” I doubt the OP Cheerleaders can tell you. It’s a mystic Shangri-la that IFB’ers get all misty eyed about. It is the holy Grail of IFB emotional, and experiential existence. If they find the OP then fundies believe there’s going to be a national Revival breakout and return America to being a Christian nation once again.
      The American Taliban is “asking for the Old Paths” and expecting a National Revival meeting that will change the world…
      Either that or the rapture…. 🙄

      1. Another brilliant example of lifting a verse out of context to make it “support” your opinion. And about the “old paths” being from the OT, maybe that’s why they are so excited about getting people to follow all their “laws” rather than walking in Christ’s freedom?

  31. The rapture is NOT scriptural. I have a huge beaf against the teachings of this lying nonsense. This fanciful hoopla of a tale is to keep people living in fear, among other shystie teachings, ie., the world is going to end, palease, I am so over all that now after my extensive research on end time study of the bible and other studies. I will keep most of my opinions to myself because there are those who have their beliefs and I don’t want to discourage anyone. Bottom line, if your beliefs bring you peace and encouragment, great, enjoy it. If certain beliefs cause you crippeling fears, face that fear and research for yourself to find the truth, you will be pleasantly surprised. I did and now I have no fears. There is nothing to fear within religion except those stumbeling blocks created by man.

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