Outreach

Gluttony for Punishment

129 Comments

No wait…that’s me who’s the glutton for punishment. Because I can’t resist posting this bit of news from late last year:

It’s interesting to note that our old friend David Grice is involved in this contest. This has to be quite the soul winning pitch in the African-American communities the South team visits. “Come to our church and help us win a great victory for the Confederacy!”

129 thoughts on “Gluttony for Punishment”

      1. Yes, it does have that effect.

        I live about as far South as possible in the U.S. (not counting Hawaii): the southern tip of Texas. The last battle of the Civil War was fought near here (Lee had already surrendered, so apparently they fought just for fun).

        I’ve said here before what I think about Confederate celebrations and Civil War reenactments. Short version: The war’s been over for 146 years, friends. The ex-slaves aren’t coming back to their masters. Get over it.

  3. I love to visit the south (especially in Feb & March). Am very thankful these idiots aren’t representative of anything but their own racist filth. This is not what it means to follow Yeshua.

      1. Comments were in reaction to the photo. Skimmed the article. Treating institutionalized slavery as being nothing more than a gimmick to increase turnout, and acting like you don’t think there’s anything that might even be the slightest bit of foul (especially when you inclue what I can only describe as a quite pernicious photo w/ literally the confederate flag replacing the Christian one (check the flag pole tops). It just boggles the mind.

  4. They couldn’t have been divided geographically; they only listed one northern state.

    It’s just a contest; I don’t know how offensive a Confederate flag really is. I think they showed poor taste in using North and South sides of the US Civil War… kind of like using an Cowboys & Indians on an Indian reservation.

    1. How offensive is a Confederate battle flag? If you’re African-American, it means that you’re looking at a symbol of your ancestors’ slavery and oppression, the second-class citizenry of your parents or grandparents, and the current symbol of a bunch of racist thugs. If you’re white, for most Americans, it’s still a symbol of racism past and present. Not a welcoming “Come to our church!” invitation, no matter how many tracts you hand out or doors you knock on.

      Oh–I’m from Virginia.

        2. I’m aware that there were some black men in Confederate armed services—some as servants of white officers, some free black men and some in hopes of freedom after the war, some blue-eyed and light-skinned enough to pass as white. There were none, so far as I know, comparable to the Union’s 54th Massachusetts Regiment, black soldiers who fought under the command of white officers. A few black men fighting on the side of their masters doesn’t mean that the Confederate battle flag was not a symbol of oppression for most black people in the South.

    2. Actually there appears to be three Northern churches – two in MI and one in Ohio – and four in the South.

  5. They left out the number of people they offended to the point of never wanting anything to do with Christ.

  8. Almost 30,000 ‘offers’ and barely 1,000 ‘takers’. Someone do the math on that.

  9. Oh good- you made me remember to change my Confederate Christian flag in my tagline for the forums. Now I will just to bless you God-forsaking lawless Yankees.

  10. I have to say the Confederate flag represents to me a group of people fighting against the growing interference and influence of the Industrialist North. Given slavery was wrong, however was it really necessary for the abolitionists to back the Southerners in a corner, giving them no option but to fight?

    Given the atrocities the north perputrated during Reconstruction, the Flag was a rallying point for people to flock too. It represented a time of civility, prosperity, and a time of honor. Unlike the nation we have become.

    If you eliminate the slavery, give me the Old South over the mess we have now anytime.

    1. Chad,

      You can’t separate slavery and the Old South. Slavery made the Old South what it was. The South’s (and the nation’s) prosperity came from cotton, which depended on slavery. Even the honor you mention was tied to slavery (see works by historians Bertram Wyatt-Brown and Kenneth Greenberg, for example).

      1. Mark, he undoubtedly knows this. He’s just being a common troll. The best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them. They fade away from boredom.

        1. Rose, calling me a troll is uncalled for. I do not post often, but I have tried to be fair and kind when I have, given I am coming from a pretty conservative background. I wish I could put into the written word what I can say with ease in a spoken word context. I will just say that I know slavery was wrong, however I will extend Christian grace toward them, seeing as how slavery was considered perfectly legit in the norms of the time. I was mainly trying to say the society was more refined and much less crude and borrish than we have become today.

          I truely hope that make my muddied ideas a little less muddy. God bless you. I hope we can get along now. :mrgreen:

        3. “Slavery was considered perfectly legit in the norms of the time.” But Christians are not to be part of this world system, but to have their minds transformed by the Gospel. And the Bible tells me to treat people as I would want to be treated. And even the best slave owners (if they existed outside of stories) wouldn’t wish to BE a slave.

          Christians are to speak out against injustice. Christians should be willing to suffer personal loss, including economic loss, in order to follow Christ’s commands.

          I think society only appeared more refined and less crude than today because people didn’t publically write about or admit what was going on. Yes, there may have been a beautiful, cultured facade of civility, refinement, and honor for the privileged classes, but until all people enjoy freedom, that civility was a fraud.

        4. Pastor’s Wife,

          Yep. Look at the diary of prominent southern scion William Byrd II, which is filled with accounts of him “rogering” women.

    2. I agree to a point. If the CSA battle flag were only emblematic of a land of knights and… (now all of a sudden I can’t remember the opening crawl from “Gone With the Wind”) then you would be absolutely correct.
      The 20th century, not the 19th, is what ruined the battle flag as a symbol of anything good. Southern whites used the flag as a symbol of Jim Crow, segregation, and white supremacy. The KKK displayed it as they lynched and intimidated anyone who defied the status quo. None of these “Southern pride” people said anything about it. They were satisfied with the status quo, too.

        3. I could point out that your question is redundant. You might as well ask, “Who does a United States Representative represent?”

          Instead, I’ll give you what you’re asking for. The armed forces of the CSA proudly stood for Simon Legree, lynch mobs, slave beatings, and people who enjoy saying “n–ger” everywhere.

    3. You really wanna stick with “was it really necessary for the abolitionists to back the Southerners in a corner, giving them no option but to fight?”?

      I think you might already know the emphatic answer is YES, it was necessary and over a hundred years late. Slavery was morally abhorrent, and a corporate sin both by the South and the North (mostly of turning a blind eye).

      1. Rob, I agree with you! I sometimes hear people say that the Civil War was actually about state’s rights. That sounds great, until you ask, the right to do what? The south wasn’t fighting for the right to produce artifical tobacco, or use purple paint on their houses. The only “right” they were fighting for was the right to keep slavery as an institution.

        And by 1860, slavery was *not* accepted everywhere else. England abolished it in 1830.

        1. Heck, serfdom was abolished in Russia in 1861, two years before the Emancipation Proclamation.

        2. The USA was one of the last countries in Europe and the Americas to abolish slavery. The only one I can think of that kept slavery longer was Brazil (which finally completely abolished it in 1888).

        3. And they say the US is the leader of the free world. Maybe in military spending and at capitalism, but haven’t been a moral leader in a long long time, if ever. Hard to think of a moral issue we were the first to rectify, or even address.

        5. A better Q would be “how much better could the world be if Christians weren’t worshiping America”.

    4. ah yes… those were the good old days… most people didn’t live past 40… jeez we have really spiraled downward over the past 150 years haven’t we?

  11. Whenever I see the Confederate flag on someone’s pickup (it’s almost always a pickup!) or backpack or in someone’s front yard I always think “uneducated redneck hillbilly”. If someone had come to my door with a Confederate flag in their hands I’d have slammed the door in their face.

  12. This stuff makes me physical nauseated.

    As an outsider looking in, the idea of the two sides of a civil war perpetuating the division over a century later is mind blowingly stupid. It’s only worse when it is done by Christians and in the name of Christ.

    1. I get the impression that many people who display the thing see the Confederate flag as a symbol of a time when everybody who looked like them would have been rich, well dressed, respected, and waited on hand and foot without having to do much actual work.

      The reality . . . not so much.

  13. IFB is a mostly a White institution and often dominated by southerners. The continual love of the Confederacy is proof of that.
    The Southern Baptist Convention believes it may have to close half of its churches by 2030. I am sure many IFB churches will close down in the next few decades as America’s demographics change and young white people become less religious. Also the SBC and IFB unwillingness to incorporate the music and worship styles of other cultures does not help either.

    1. I suppose it’s possible that the Confederate battle flag is being used as a dog whistle (unconsciously, I hope)—a signal to like-minded folks that their racist attitudes are shared there, as well as an overt symbol keeping others out. If that’s true, it’s even more despicable. If it’s not true, it’s still horribly tone deaf and will offend far more people than it attracts.

  14. It’s “alumnus,” not “alumni!”

    I think it’s appropriate in something so blatantly ignorant as this, but still, it drives me crazy!

      1. Oh, I just realized you’re referring to the photo caption “Pastor Mark Gilbert– 2002 Alumni.”
        You’re right, it should be “Alumnus.”

        1. Maybe it should be “allumni”, because two IFB Confederacy-lovers in every one is Schizophrenic….

  15. I know the invention of the wheel was a major milestone in our development as humans, but I fail to see why we would place wheels by the pulpit.

    1. It’s a symbol of Buddhism.
      The cannon pointed at the “Northern” side seems inappropriate, but then … so does their whole gimmick.

  16. I’m a Northern boy, but I lived in a Southern border state for 4 years.

    I understand the use of the Confederate flag in Civil War re-enactments, just like I understand the need to use German Nazi symbols in WWII re-enactments.

    Just as I find the use of German Nazi symbols offensive outside of re-enactments, I view the use of the Confederate flag outside of re-enactments as offensive.

    2. Germans (unless they are Skinheads or NeoNazis) do NOT re-enact World War II. It’s both a national embarrassment to them and a historic catastrophe for the German people.
      The same thing is true of the Civil War for the South– a national embarrassment and the memory of a catastrophe. Unless people are either two dense to realize this, or are White Supremacists, I don’t see why they would want to re-enact that calamity. It’s like re-enacting the Black Plague: Quite possible, but why would you want to?

        1. I suppose the obvious answer would be for the purposes of a motion picture. Live-action re-enactments, however, (to the best of my knowledge) seem to be somewhat of an American novelty.

        2. Don’t ask me how I know this but live-action reenactments are quite widespread in other countries. I know there is a massive buildup on the anniversary of the Battle of Waterloo in Belgium. Reenactors come from all over Europe and the world. You can go to gladiator school in Rome and be trained to become a reenactor. The English are fairly fond of reenacting battles as well.
          http://www.knightsofmiddleengland.com/

      3. I think distance explains why people reenact the American Civil War, but not WWII German campaigns.

        Some reenactors see what they do as not only an interesting challenge (getting the details right in this modern age is surprisingly hard work), but also a way to show spectators what the war was actually like by stripping away the romanticization and showing the dirt and so forth.

        2. That’s true, but the same thing would be true of re-enacting the Black Plague or the Nanking Massacre or the Irish Famine or any number of other historic events.

        4. Krakatoa would be pretty hard to re-enact, unless you had a big stack of hydrogen bombs. Then wouldn’t be so hard, but even more inadvisable.

        5. I find Civil War re-enactments fascinating and cool. I don’t find churches treating the confederate flag as an OK symbol, or treating the war between the states as a morally neutral event, to obnoxious intrusion of the federal government to be acceptable. Those are not defensible positions.

        6. @Apathetic or whatever: Yes. SCA members (although beyond the pale as far as many strict reenactors are concerned!) have been able to correct some minor errors in the teaching of history because we actually wear the armor, prepare the food, etc. One documented example, although I don’t have the citation handy: A history professor said that pictures of knights taking off their own mail shirts in the Bayeux Tapestry were symbolic because it was impossible to take a mail shirt off by oneself. So a student who happened to know an SCA member who had a handmade mail shirt had him come in to demonstrate that actually it is possible.

          But, see, we know we are doing a “good parts” recreation of our chosen period.

  17. I grew up in the Deep South in a family with several members of the Sons of Confederate Veterans.

    Call me a scalawag or a carpetbagger if you must but I believe the best side won.

    That said, I know from experience that neither side is particularly open to changing their minds so it is unlikely that this argument will ever be settled. It is much more likely to eventually fade away.

    I would encourage both sides to read literature from the opposing point of view. Try to understand their way of seeing the world. If nothing else, it will help you understand your own views better.

  18. Personally, I find any kind of “contest” related to church attendance, soul winning, tract passing, etc. offensive.

    As for the Confederate flag, I’ve seen enough of them around that I don’t view them automatically as a symbol of racism. That being said, I probably wouldn’t attend a church that had a Confederate flag on display in the sanctuary. I even have a problem with the US flag in the sanctuary. If we want to reach the world, why do we tend to mix our worship with national patriotism in the US? ❓

    1. I agree. Nothing wrong with our national flag, but it doesn’t belong in church. Nationalism is another false idol.

  19. I said it before and I’ll say it again:
    “Ignorance is curable… Stupid goes clean to the bone.”

    This just proves stupidity. And borders on blasphemy. This is presenting “another gospel.” This is a man centered, numbers driven mockery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This does not present Jesus Christ as he is revealed in Scripture but a christ that they have imagined. God help us that this is promoted as the Gospel! Not one sentence in that article glorifies Christ. It only glorifies men and programs. Small wonder the world wants nothing to do with the god they promote.

    How long Lord? How long?

    1. I completely agree, Don. It is all about man, man, man. And how are those “guests” going to feel when they find out they were not invited out of love, but because they were part of a contest?

      2. You can’t fix stupid, not even with duct tape. But it can muffle the sound.

    3. Yes Don, it needs to be said: The people promulgating these things are not of us (I John 2). They have departed the faith, and are reprobate. Those who follow their teachings need to come back to the Church, to the faith.

      Harsh? Sure. But these people have gone much further than even the so-called “Liberals” they love to despise. Not only have they have departed from (core) orthodoxy altogether, but they have also expunged love and compassion.

      They are not of the faith. We should not treat them as if they are.

      1. Well said, Don and Singular.

        I know my husband and our church would be despised by people like this because we use CCM, but THEY’RE the ones exalting men not Christ and pushing “pray a prayer”, numbers-oriented soul-winning. And you’re so right about love and compassion being unimportant to them: I’ve actually heard messages warning us against being “too” loving! (Of course, if they mean “don’t compromise”, say that, but don’t preach against love!)

        It’s so strange to step outside the bunker and see everything in a whole new way.

    4. Don, thanks for always eloquently saying what I am thinking. All I could conjure up in my astonished state is “unflippin believable!”

    5. Well said, Don. This is a religion of their own invention, not the Gospel Jesus proclaimed.

  22. Flippin’ ‘eck (as I learned to say in England) and someone argued that black people weren’t unwelcome in fundie churches. This is either monumental insensitivity, crushing ignorance or deliberate racism. None of which are particularly creditable in a Christian Church.

  23. If the Union wanted to free the slaves and not destroy the econmomy of the southern part of their own country, then why was a plan not set in motion to suppliment the effect of freeing the slaves. I have heard several economists state this would have been less expensive than 4 years of war, not to mention 600,000 american lives. I went to high school our nick name was the rebels. All of my black teamates loved being a rebel. When the school stoped flying the battle flag and letting the band play dixie all of them stood up aganist the school board in protest, as did other black players from other years.

    1. I never said or believed that the Civil War was the best way to end slavery, or even a good way. Nonetheless, it’s still true that, by and large, what the Southern states fought for was defending the institution of slavery and the subjugation of black people. Don’t take my word for it; read their own secession declarations, and what the Southern newspapers were writing at the time.
      I’ve also learned recently that in my state, Texas, when a plebiscite on secession was held (only white males voted, of course) the vote broke down pretty closely according to who owned slaves and grew cotton and who didn’t. The counties with a lot of slave owners voted to join the Confederacy; the counties with few slave owners voted to stay in the Union. Black slaves were about a third of our state’s population at the time, but, of course, they didn’t get to vote.

      1. Big Gary, go read it yourself. You can start here if you need a link http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html#Mississippi

        For SC the straw that broke the camel’s back was the illegal actions taken by Abraham Lincoln. Georgia says slavery was ending but they Union wouldn’t stop pushing and Ga would be thoroughly destroyed economically at the expense of a federal govt that favored Northern commerce. Mississippi was a whole lot more up front about slavery but ultimately they seceded after Union forces entered Southern states. People that claim “oh it was about slavery plain and simple” are just being willfully ignorant. Precious few white people would’ve fought and died for black people at that time in history. Slavery was in fact the initial source of all the agitation but that had been ongoing for over 20 years. The ultimate causes of secession and war were much more complicated and political. I’m never a fan of war. It happened and it’s over but I just get so tired of reading the same old tired unthinking a-historical garbage by a bunch of modernists who think themselves pious because they can condemn a bunch of redneck slave owners.

        1. Having said all that.. the church mentioned in the article is apparently a bunch of crazed fundies who clearly have no business running any church.. not even a fundy one.

        2. In the declarations you linked to, all the seceding states mentioned protection of slavery as their main or first reason (though not the only reason, it’s true) for seceding from the Union.
          I don’t see how that’s any different from what I said.

        3. Actually they didn’t. They mentioned slavery as the background to the hostile relationship with the Union and then they listed the events that caused secession- none of which were slavery. It was a very complex situation. Thankfully it’s over.

        4. Don123 – “I just get so tired of reading the same old tired thinking a-historical garbage by a bunch of modernists who think themselves pious because they can condemn a bunch of redneck slave owners.”

          You better be glad you waited til late evening to have posted or they would have had you for supper. I read the PC foolishnes til I couldn’t take anymore and posted my usual sarcastic stuff.

          Your quote above is the best on the whole thread and truly does sum up what passes for “quasi” history in our day, yet another history “re-write”

        6. Donb123,

          “For SC the straw that broke the camel’s back was the illegal actions taken by Abraham Lincoln.”

          Wrong. AL was only president-elect and hadn’t done anything except be elected.

          “Georgia says slavery was ending but they Union wouldn’t stop pushing and Ga would be thoroughly destroyed economically at the expense of a federal govt that favored Northern commerce.”

          Whatever GA said, slavery was not ending. The 1850s were the most profitable decade for southern staple crops, including cotton.

          “Mississippi was a whole lot more up front about slavery but ultimately they seceded after Union forces entered Southern states.”

          Wrong. MS seceded prior to Ft. Sumter.

          “Precious few white people would’ve fought and died for black people at that time in history.”

          That’s not the question. The question is whether southern elites were willing to leave the Union to protect a profitable labor source and its products.

          “Slavery was in fact the initial source of all the agitation but that had been ongoing for over 20 years.”

          Actually, for a lot longer than 20 years.

          “The ultimate causes of secession and war were much more complicated and political. I’m never a fan of war.”

          True. There were multiple sources of agitation prior to secession, but they all trace back to slavery’s place in the U.S.

          “they can condemn a bunch of redneck slave owners.”

          With a young, male field hand costing about the same as a fully equipped SUV, slave owners were hardly rednecks in the modern sense of lower-class southern whites.

      2. I get the impression that the vast majority of contributors to this blog are white. I have heard very little from people who would identify themselves as “Black” or “African-American”. That is probably understandable given that most contributors have come out of a system which has historically White. But I would like to bear a Black/African-American perspective now and then.

        1. Hmm…. Maybe that came across as a bit clumsy and I might have been making assumptions. I was told “Never Assume – it can make an ass out of u and me”. I grew up in Northern Ireland (still live there) in a society that made many assumption about a great many issues, especially about what it meant to be a Christian (definitely *not* Catholic, only holding to one political viewpoint, not doing this, not doing that…blah blah blah…) and it can be very difficult to get out of that mindset. In the meantime I’ll stop trying to dig myself out of a hole.

  24. I think that’s a weird, really weird, title for the article. Why not “Churches Battle It Out Over Soulwinning” or “Civil War Theme Encourages Church Members to Evangelize” or “South Beats North in Exciting Contest”. But “The South Will Rise Again”? Odd.

  26. All the people that were in the south and fought for the south hated God and black folks, on the other hand, all folks that lived in the north were God-fearing lovers of all races, especially blacks. You can clearly see the residual effect of that still, with more God-fearing folks up north, and more heathens in the south.

    The above paragraph is just about as stupid as many of the comments that came before it. Anyone that tries to judge history and men must take into account the culture and time from which the “judgees” came from.

    To act as though someone that flies a confederate battle flag and is proud of their southern heritage, with all of its foibles, loves and promotes slavery is ludicrous.

    I neither have nor display any flags at my home or on my vehicle, I don’t re-enact (have family members that do, and they love it) I support them in their hobby, and those that are proud of their southern heritage, just as I support black folks to be proud of their heritage, and the wearing of FUBU clothing (for us by us)

    The issue is more than slavery, and the sooner you recognize that, the clearer your understanding over the issue of the confederate flag may become, but then again maybe not.

    There are wonderful christian people that love their country and are proud of their southern heritage and fly the confederate flag, and don’t have one drop of prejudice in their bloodstream, and would never want to offend any of their black friends and neighbors.

        1. Someone please make a Charlie Sheen joke… right….. here. Ok I did. #winning

  27. Never mind the whole North/South/Confederacy thing at issue here; that’s bad enough. Why do fundie churches hold competitions with one another to see which church can win the most souls?? Gimme a break. I can’t think of anything that presents a worse caricature of what the Gospel is supposed to be about.

  28. Here is Georgia’s Declaration of Succession:

    http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html

    Here’s the very first two sentences

    “The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery.”

    Here is Misssissipi’s:

    http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html#Mississippi

    “n the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

    Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery– the greatest material interest of the world.”

    So please, let’s stop this silly talk about and the ludicrous and uneducated idea that there were complicated causes. There was one cause.

    1. … As I was saying …

      I’m not happy that some of my ancestors fought in a war to preserve slavery. It wasn’t a worthy cause, and the fact that they did so without even owning any slaves themselves (that I know of) makes them seem like chumps. But denying that that’s what happened won’t make it go away, or convert it into a glorious past.

    2. That some are willfully ignorant of the fact that the war was over defending the institution of slavery to the point of attempting to secede from the union is undeniable no matter how much you want to not believe it.

    3. Dan you’re quoting but mere pieces of the document and ignoring the rest. That’s fundy logic for ya.

      1. I read the whole documents. I saw where they said they don’t want the Federal government to abolish slavery (in the context of a reason for seceding), but I didn’t see where they said they were not seceding over slavery, or that slavery wasn’t their reason for going to war. Where are those parts, donb123?

  30. I got all involved with the Jon Stewart fans and their political correctness and history rewrite, that I forgot to say anything about the post itself. For the record, appears to be another bone-headed fundy promotion.

    1. you sure did, didnt you?! what a HOOT! well we were all waiting with baited breath to see what you were going to officially put “on the record” about this one… now we can let out a sigh of relief and go back to our mindless, politically correct lives.

  31. Yeah, what Don said about the whole man centeredness coming through loud and clear. The Confederacy flag and all the Civil War stuff is just a distraction among their obviously poor taste. What they mean to be a fun competition ends up showing how little they really care about the people around them and how much they care about impressing men.

    The part that sticks out the most to me is not the crazy talk of who beats who. It’s the numbers of this done and that done that shows their heart. They are working for the praise of men. They have their reward in full for their efforts.

    Here’s a new thought I had from this. Are the fundies perhaps the creators of something innovative? Did they invent something that we all know about and love to this day? Yes, they did. From door knocking and tracts and however else they choose to irritate and annoy the heck out of everyone they unfortunately come in contact with, long before the internet perfected the art, they have invented SPAM!

    Did they ever really pause to think how many of those 16,663 tracts are headed straight for the trash or will harden someone in anger with their methods? Or how about those 5,932 people invited. Are they really people invited or just a number they can file another notch into their fundy gun with? Or what about those 7,288 doors knocked on? Do those people inside those doors know that they are truly loved at any other time in their life other than during the door knocking nonsense season? Since they published the numbers, my conclusion is that they were playing a numbers game. It’s fundy SPAM at its finest.

    I want two boxes at my front door now. One that says “rocks for JWs” and now “rocks for Confederate fundy counters.”

  32. Bigotry in the name of Christ is nauseating. But is is not just a feature of Fundamentalists from the American Deep South. I come from Northern Ireland where Evangelical Protestant Christians do not exactly have a glowing record of Justice or Human Rights. Under the old “Stormont” government, Catholics living in Northern Ireland were discriminated in many different ways, and most Protestants including (especially?) “Born-Again” Christians, were more than happy to defend the Status Quo. Any Christian (which meant you had to be Protestant) who supported the rights of Catholics, or “Fellowshipped with Catholics” was seen as a “Betrayer of The Faith”. This is something I know about – my Father, a well know business man, was openly condemned from the pulpit of a certain Church (not his own), quite a few years ago,in the town for fraternising with the Enemy.

    1. I’m glad your father wasn’t killed for fraternizing with Catholics. Some Protestants in Northern Ireland have been.

      1. Not many Christians Kill or are guilty of Murder, but quite a few are adept in the ancient Christian art of Character Assasination.

  34. The folks that try to defend the Souths actions are simply still standing on the wrong side of history!

    2. I am not trying to defend the South’s actions, I’m just trying to defend historical truth, and very little of that is being displayed in this thread.

      1. It’s just as foolish to say that slavery was the sole reason for the civil war as it is for someone to deny that slavery played no role.

        “What we have here is a failure to communicate” 😎

        1. Agreed. (Can you believe it? :)) While slavery was undoubtedly a big issue of the Civil War, it certainly wasn’t the only one. I’ll probably get some flak for this, but I’m of the opinion that neither side was the good/bad guy. The Union seriously violated the constitution with the blockade, and their army committed unmerited attrocities against the South. All this to say, while I still harbor general dislike for the Confederate Flag, I don’t think it should be banned like the Swastika in Germany. It carries a lot of baggage, yes, but not nearly to that level.

        2. Agreed. (Can you believe it? :)) While slavery was undoubtedly a big issue of the Civil War, it certainly wasn’t the only one. I’ll probably get some flak for this, but I’m of the opinion that neither side was the good/bad guy. The Union seriously violated the constitution with the blockade, and their army committed unmerited attrocities against the South. All this to say, while I still harbor general dislike for the Confederate Flag, I don’t think it should be banned like the Swastika in Germany. It carries a lot of baggage, yes, but not nearly to that level. You can’t erase history, or you’ll repeat it.

  35. My ancestors settled in Western North Carolina soon after the American Revolution. They were not rich planters, and as far as I know, never owned slaves. Two of them fought for the Confederacy because the prevailing feeling among many in the South was that their loyalty to their state was greater than their loyalty to the nation. I am mostly proud of my heritage. Slavery is a black spot on the South’s history to be sure, and that I am not proud of. When we moved to SC, I was given a license plate with the state flag on one side and the Rebel flag on the other. Since I have taught African American kids in the different schools, I have never put it on my vehicle because I don’t want to give offense to anyone.

    The South is not the only region with a checkered past. Just ask the natives who were driven from their land, the immigrants who have been hated through history, and the Japanese who were put in camps during WWII.

    Btw, the largest Rebel flag and burnt cross that I’ve ever seen was on a farm along the interstate in Ohio between Cincinnati and Columbus.

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