A few weeks back I gave some commentary on an article by Jeff Amsbaugh which attempted to answer the question of why the young fundamentalists are leaving.
In counterpoint, Bob Gray has also written a response (which quotes from the article but doesn’t mention it or Amsbaugh by name) and it is a rambling and wild-eyed thing of beauty.
I’ll only post an excerpt here but the gist of this semi-incoherent piece is that
1. The lunatic fringe is really the only part of fundamentalism worth having.
2. The lunatics are not only surviving, they’re thriving.
3. Politics. Amen?
The upshot is that Bob Gray should really not be allowed to write things without an editing staff around to keep him from looking as uneducated as he is unpleasant.
Here’s a sample:
Pharaoh first hardened his own heart. That did not deter God from continuing to use His man in preaching God’s truth to God’s people, and to Pharaoh or his followers. We are free moral agents and God is not going to detour around truth because some are offended by that truth. Neither are God’s men of 2014 supposed to do so.
· People leave because they are not of the ones they are leaving. Human nature.
· I would rather they leave than attempt to commandeer what others lived and died for in fundamentalism in the past.
· To blame the quote “dirty dozen” of sins or standards that are preached, as the reason for an exodus of youth, is as liberal a mind-set as there is and lacks logic.
· Rules and standards do not make rebels they merely expose the rebels.
· The liberals blame guns and not the shooters and the liberal’s desire is to disarm all Americans from that which they despise.
· Liberals always think they are smarter and know what’s best and are not happy to just leave.
· They will not be satisfied until they control the rest of us.
· This small number of new breed of young leaders have a desire to take away all standards thus they must blame certain standards by using such antiquated and ill defined terms like “legalism.”
· Their so-called freedom from standards is a trap set by Satan himself.
· They in turn will define our standards, not theirs, and insulate themselves from such by calling our standards “preferences.”
· They are attempting to separate the youth from the influence of the men of God who built great works for God in the 60’s, 70s, and 80’s
· These men of the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s had more people in their bathrooms than these young men have in their church. Yes, I am using the horrible topic of numbers. The Bible does speak of “for the work’s sake” some will believe.
· These young men are opting out of the quest for Holy Spirit power in search of human spirit power.
· When you use Hollywood methods you will receive Hollywood results. Church is to remind us of Heaven not the world. A called out body of baptized believers is the “ekklesia.” We are peculiar and even called a remnant.
· When liberals attempt to re-write the history of these great spiritual men, that God gave us, we are doing exactly what the liberal intellectuals have done and will do with our historical forefathers.
· When I was in high school in the early 60’s our forefathers were revered and not sneered. Then the rebels of the 60’s became our college professors and leaders of our higher education institutions.
· They began immediately to re-write history and make our forefathers look as undesirable as possible. Thus higher education today is smearing the lives of our countries forefathers in the text books as well as the classroom.
· The liberals believe if they can discredit the great men of the past they can alter the direction of the future. That is why Jack Hyles, Tom Malone, Lester Roloff, Lee Roberson, etc., are conveniently absent from some Bible colleges.
· We are in 2014 seeing the same play just different actors both politically and spiritually.
· When those with standards are tagged as “lunatic fringe” by our youth then it is no different than the Tea Party being tagged “lunatic fringe” by the liberal Democrats.
· By the way, that is where the term “lunatic fringe” was birthed.
· The attack on the U.S. Constitution by political liberals could have been easily predicted, much like the attack on the inspiration of the Holy Scriptures by spiritual liberals of our day. One young leader blames our belief of “inspiration of the Holy Scriptures” as part of the problem.
· To tear down what our spiritual and historical forefathers accomplished with scandalizing Internet statements is silly and juvenile. This is grade school stuff.
· I remember at the SOUTHWIDE-BAPTIST-FELLOWSHIP meeting years ago at Dr. Roberson’s church when a national leader renounced his position on standards and soul winning. The struggle was on!
· Many of his peers and some youth followed suit and they produced a public schism and that was fine with me. Just tell us what you believe and we can all move on.
· It appears that in order to build up this new neo-fundamental group we must dispatch with the old guard and do it quickly.
· That is why we have a cancerous soft peddling of a so-called “NEW ROAD.”
· I would suggest that we not mistake “meekness” for “weakness” and let our old and aged voices be heard once again.
· There are still 7,000 out here who have not bowed their knees to the god of this world.
· You can tell more by those who make comments to these blogs of their approval about this silent rebellion.
· Look at the ones who give favorable comments to such illogical, unscriptural verbal diarrhea on these blogs.
· Look at their Face book pics and look at the wives in their skinny jeans along with their listing of their favorite Hollywood movies. That is the elephant in the room that NO ONE wants to talk about.
· A mixed multitude will never get the job done.
· Maybe we should just simply declare where each of us stand on separation and then collate from there. The problem is the youth know where the aged stand because the aged make it clear. Yet the liberal youth tip toe around the subject matter with their books and never do declare specific positions.
If these young bucks are going to bring the fight on in an attempt to do away with OUR forefathers’ legacy and OUR standards, then the fight is on.
· I really do not care what they do or don’t’ do within their realm of their convictions, but do not subtly attack Jack Hyles, Lee Roberson, Tom Malone, John R. Rice and Lester Roloff in an attempt to invade our churches with this non-sense. These mentors of ours were some of the greatest men of God our nation has ever known. PERIOD!
· Dr. Lee Roberson did not give a hoot if another man had his night services at 6 or 7. He was concerned about the “TREND” and where it was headed for those who were influenced by him. The proof is in the “puddin'” and from what I see he was right as to the destination of such changes
· The aged see the big picture better than the youth do. Staying in to correct wrongs did not work for the SBC and it will not work any where else. LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!
“· Look at their Face book pics and look at the wives in their skinny jeans along with their listing of their favorite Hollywood movies. That is the elephant in the room that NO ONE wants to talk about.”
Seriously? No! I think the elephant in the fundamentalists’ room is the abuse that’s been swept under the rug and ignored and the hypocrisy and double standards and favoritism.
There’s so much misplaced concern here. Really? He’s upset about skinny jeans and music?
But here’s God’s concern from Ezekiel 34:
” What sorrow awaits you shepherds who feed yourselves instead of your flocks. . . You have not taken care of the weak. You have not tended the sick or bound up the injured. You have not gone looking for those who have wandered away and are lost. Instead, you have ruled them with harshness and cruelty. . . you fat sheep pushed and butted and crowded my sick and hungry flock until you scattered them to distant lands. So I will rescue my flock, and they will no longer be abused. ”
THIS is what should draw his ire, not skinny jeans.
“Movies”, George, not music!
Actually, I bet they mean both. ^_^
Well…. Gray means that those who criticize him and other, uh, “lunatic fringe” fundamentalists often turn out to have various degrees of sin in their lives — from porn and/or adultery, to divorce (*gasp!), to drinking alcohol (*double gasp*).
Their #1 technique in dealing with criticism is to attach the critic, in an attempt to distract from the real issue: is the criticism true?
Gray is a master at this – when he is criticized, he demands to know if you have been soul-winning and tithing. And if you have been soul-winning, he demands to know your success rate. Then he goes on the attack.
Frankly, this has been the one thing that has stopped my mouth; I don’t always have the funds to tithe, so my record there isn’t perfect, and I have a deep dislike (probably from childhood) of cold-calling on people. I do my best to support the church financially – I don’t think I life an extravagant life, but the money sometimes isn’t there. I have shared the gospel, but not in the “quick, say this prayer” in-your-face door-to-door “soul-winning” – but quiet one-on-one conversation when the opportunity arises.
But this is not enough for the likes of Gray; if you’re not living up to his expectations, he doesn’t have to heed your criticism.
And he’s also upset about the KJV not being used exclusively. These men don’t listen to God, they listen only to themselves. IT is a good ol’ boys club, 100%. They cause so much harm and then instead of looking at themselves, they blame the sheep and the younger generations. It’s never their fault for anything. They are supreme.
· The liberals believe if they can discredit the great men of the past they can alter the direction of the future. That is why Jack Hyles, Tom Malone, Lester Roloff, Lee Roberson, etc., are conveniently absent from some Bible colleges.”
Wow. Always “the liberals.”
Do these people need liberals to discredit them? “Accusations of improper sexual behavior, financial and emotional abuse are highlights to Hyle’s legacy.” (Yes, a wikipedia quote, but accurate). Not to mention Hyle’s son’s shenanigans in his daddy’s church, which his daddy did nothing to stop. Can anyone say “Eli’s judgment”? I knew you could.
Lester Roloff? Oh, the stories the girls who finally escaped from the “homes” have told! The abuse, the beatings, the humiliations, use of handcuffs to lock girls to drain pipes, the refusal to submit to proper state authority … Roloff was as much of a rebel in his own way as any person he took in. He was simply the rebel *in charge* and he was going to have his way or else.
Oh, Roloff had some wonderful sermons. He also had a mean spirit when crossed. He set a pattern for “Christian homes” for “troubled” kids that specialized in abusing kids into submission who wouldn’t submit to abuse from their parents.
I have no knowledge of scandals around the others (Lee Roberson, Tom Malone). But half of his heroes of fundamentalism had horrible testimonies outside of fundamentalism, for valid reasons.
There is no need to defame Fundamentalists, as they tend to do the job to themselves.
I believe that Lee Roberson and Tom Malone were decent men; I know of no scandal among them. I don’t know much about Tom Malone, but Lee Roberson has been criticized for an over-emphasis on “soul-winning” and missions giving – he did not bother to ground the people in the Scripture; they had no idea why he believed what he believed. Thus, after he was gone, the church and school he founded rapidly moved from his standards.
I think Tom Malone’s church & school suffered a similar problem, but I don’t know as much about it.
If Gray wants to have the next generation continue to “carry the torch” as he sees it, he’s going to need to drop the nasty, because-I-said-so attitude and show (attempt to show) how his positions are Biblical. It is the Holy Spirit of God who transforms people through the Word of God, not loud shouting of a tyrant.
Yes, I never heard of any scandals involving Lee Roberson. The biggest problem there was that he created a personality cult that centered on him. Once he retired/was pushed out (depends on who you ask), the school and church began to struggle to keep up numbers. During my time in the schools (both the academy and university) numbers were rapidly dwindling. To counteract that, they cracked down on rules in order to court Southwide pastors so they would send their kids to the university. Obviously, they later turned in the opposite direction.
I just want to answer the argument that Person X is too old to be discussed on a blog, that perhaps Person X is too old to have a position of authority over others, such as a role of pastor would entail. All people in such positions should be held accountable for their actions.
Bless his little pea picking heart….as my friend from Tennessee would say.
What turns off millenials and even some of the generation before them is exactly what Gray has done here. He has so fused together his politics and his faith that being a Christian looks like a particular brand of USAmerican political party. Gray, like most fundamentalists, make non-essentials the litmus test of spirituality and faith. There are many who are wanting us to return to simple orthodoxy and orthopraxy–which no political party embodies and fundamentalism is not even looking like.
“To blame the quote “dirty dozen” of sins or standards that are preached, as the reason for an exodus of youth, is as liberal a mind-set as there is and lacks logic.. . . You can tell more by those who make comments to these blogs of their approval about this silent rebellion.”
I have somewhat to add. I have always been admiring of strings of prepositional phrases and I now wax eloquent under this inspiration:
.It’s telling more by reading this articles that the commentators of these blogs of approval (or it could be of disapproval, give or take a few) is confused about this silent rebellioness.
.You can tell it mostly, of easy trying, by the numerous of times the commentator makes little enough sense by observating that all the problems are someone else’s like, quote, “liberals and skinny jeans.”
.If you are not understanding of me as I explained the unlogical and non-sense of it, LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT! or some such, as it is more and more appearing, and don’t let me see you round here again.
I take offense to this. Who has been subtly attacking Jack Hyles, Lee Roberson, Tom Malone, John R. Rice and Lester Roloff?
I thought it was fairly straight forward.
This is a sample??! My brain exploded after the third point. It’s completely incoherent. How many sermons did I sit through that were this incoherent and I smiled and nodded? ugh.
A better question:
How sermons did we all sit through like this, and then went forward to the altar after?
*shudders and twitches*
Understandest thou what thou readest? Of what is it the which you have difficulty comprehension ? In the words in and of themselves, according to the Webster’s 1828 Authorized Dictionary, a little child maybe will understand. LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT! and the horse on which you rode in upon.
He does a bunch of goofy stuff that I disagree with or think is ineffective to say the least, but his major issue as far as I am concerned is the attitude that he is infallible. Even the pope only claims infallibility on some subjects some of the time, but the way he responds to criticism or just differences with other ministries, he assumes infallibility for himself all the time on every subject.
Clinical narcissism, in other words.
Or, as I summarized his article, “I’m always right and you’re always wrong because liberals.”
Dear Stuff Fundies Like Reader …
Ignorance in service to stupidity, misinformation magnified by illogic — why would people of ANY generation connect to this?
Christian Socialist
Because God told them so?
Oh, my daughter-in-law was FBing with my youngest son, chiding him for “putting science ahead of the Word of God” (as in six-day creationism). No matter the evidence involved, or the reasonableness of not treating the Bible as a science textbook. No, she must make claims about science that were not true (because her pastor told her what to believe anyway) and will not be convinced by truth.
And I was there, once. Thank God I escaped.
“Ignorance in service to stupidity, misinformation magnified by illogic.” May I use this? It is perfectly stated.
“· Dr. Lee Roberson did not give a hoot if another man had his night services at 6 or 7. He was concerned about the “TREND” and where it was headed for those who were influenced by him. The proof is in the “puddin’” and from what I see he was right as to the destination of such changes.”
Can someone explain what he is ranting against here? I know I’m out of the fundy loop and have been for a while, but is there some raging controversy about starting time of night services? I am deeply to be concerned concerning the destination of the such changes and the like.
It’s a reference to Amsbaugh’s original article.
In the article he talks about Roberson setting the standard for mid-week service times and everybody else toeing the line just for no good reason at all.
Thanks Darrell–I guess I spaced out during that part of J. A.’s article.
At any rate, it’s obvious that any church leader that cancels the poorly-attended mid-week service is a liberal, a compromiser, and probably has a wife that wears skinny jeans. Because the Bible says that we are to obey those who have the rule over us. And we are not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. So if the MOG schedules a service that conflicts with life, we are to cancel life and be where the Heavenly Blessings fall like rain from the lips of the MOG. Got it!
You hit it on its head. That pretty much describes my former IFB pastor.
And the more inconvenient the scheduling, the greater the blessings– Haymen?!
You know, its an embarrassment to Christianity that you people sit around all day trying to find good, godly men like Dr. Bob Gray of Texas to bash. Seriously, if you just put half the effort you use here into reading your Bibles and praying and walking in holiness, you would turn the world upside down. Your soul winning would be powerful as opposed to non-existent like it is now. I doubt that any of you EVER go soul winning, or even attend the Wednesday night service. And I am sure many of you will mock me as an ignorant sheeple and say that I don’t know how to think. Well, I have two advanced degrees in theology and I know Dr. Gray is a little over the top once in a while, but in general, he is a godly, serious, soul-winner.
FAKE!
Psssssst. Rob. Change your gravatar if you’re going to Poe.
(Yeah, it’s a pretty big giveaway 😛 )
Yeah, and D’uh, as moderator, you can see my email.
Oh, but very good. The two advanced degrees is a nice touch. 🙂
dang. You internet geeks always get me!!!
Every time I try to tell people about my Nigerian Billionaire uncle who died and left me all his money and if you would just send me your bank info, I would transfer it all to you. Every time, I am found out!!!!
Poe? Is that you? If so, great job!
Two advanced degrees in theology will get you a job saying, “Do you want fries with that?” in the real world.
And if you got those degrees from a fundy institution (which it appears you did), all those degrees indicate is the degree of rot your brain can handle without it causing you pain.
Fundamentalists think they are godly. But like Jesus said, many will profess to Him the good works they did in His name, and He will tell them He never knew them. Christianity, the real stuff, has to be better than the rotund kingdom-building boom boxes out there trying to rule or ruin everyone else’s lives.
I used to do the works, attend all the services, and soak up all the drivel. I endured the undeserved abuse.
No more. Not ever.
People do not win souls. God saves them. His work and His power. Not by yelling at them, or knocking on doors. Paul did not tell the people of Athens they were going to hell. He introduced them to the God they wanted to know — a loving and caring God.
So yes, I will feel free to critique those who embody the essence of this unholy fraud foisted on people.
“Sheeple” is plural. The singular form is “sherson”
Yeah, and the glass of Jack Daniels in my gravatar might just be a clue.
Great Poe!
Unfortunately, your gravatar is … wait. It expands when I mouse over it!
And that is what I get for hitting reply from my email!
You didn’t appear to be sitting in a church.
Yeah, it was a moment of weakness.
After his mention of the important of numbers (“success”), I appreciated reading this on fb today: “God isn’t going to say, ‘Well done, good and successful servant,’ but, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.'” – Greg Laurie
” Look at their Face book pics and look at the wives in their skinny jeans along with their listing of their favorite Hollywood movies. That is the elephant in the room that NO ONE wants to talk about.”
What an ass.
“Church is to remind us of Heaven not the world.”
This made me think of the noxious scent of polyester – from the butt-warmed pew fabric and the over-stuffed suits. Never really reminded me of Heaven for some reason.
And “love it or leave it” is not good enough when so many are still being hurt within.
suffering from PTSD after reading this
” Don’t question me , I’m the MOG ”
…When the MOG makes a mistake…” We are human what do you expect ? “