241 thoughts on “Tales from Fundy U”

  5. It’s a mind-bending organization run by people who know nothing about real religion or high education.

      1. Because you were never taught critical thinking skills?

        (Rimshot…aaannnnnd a cheap shot, too. Two shots in one!)

  6. “The rules are a fruit of a deeper issue…” I could not have said this better. For those in the IBF who claim those who have left the culture are bitter have not watched this video. Thanks for posting this, Darrell.

    1. That was a good point!

      So many people think ex-fundies are just rebellious and didn’t want to follow the rules. But the real problem for many of us was the underlying theology behind the rules: that God thinks we’re pretty pathetic creatures and can’t really tolerate us.

      That IS the view that I was given, and it is not the Gospel. Because of Christ, we ARE accepted, beloved, and cherished.

      It’s also sad when he mentioned how rarely he enjoyed conversations “that relished the love and life and freedom of who God is.” This sort of thing got stifled in that atmosphere.

      1. “It’s also sad when he mentioned how rarely he enjoyed conversations “that relished the love and life and freedom of who God is.” This sort of thing got stifled in that atmosphere.”

        Very true. I experienced this very thing my first year at BJU. Since I was older when starting, I moved to town the remained of my undergrad years there.

        B.R.O.

      2. The root cause of all IBF rules (theologically shallow viewpoints), and as a byproduct – non-existent or weak spiritual conversations was the exact reason I left the movement.

    2. I agree that this is a crucial distinction to make. There’s a lot more to leaving Fundamentalism (and to reforming it) than just easing up on the rules.

      1. I don’t believe that you can reform something that is fundamentally flawed down to its roots. The radical reformation is going outside the roots of the IFB movement back to the simplicity of the New Testament.

        B.R.O.

        1. I was foolish to stick around as long as I did thinking it would change. Unfortunately they only way for them to reform is to completely crash and burn and start over.

          It was just easier to go to another church.

  7. But demerit sounds so much more official than “putting a tic-mark next to your name”.

  8. This video reminds me of my life at BJU. Every semester, white glove inspection. The room had to be cleaned and spotless. I always had this notion of putting a big steaming dog turd in the middle of the floor to great the monitor when he came to inspect.

  10. Many memories came back to me after viewing this video. Too many to talk about here. Although I made life long friends and generally have many positive memories of my time at school, I am ashamed to admit I was part of the process both as a student and staff member. After all these years, I have come to realize that there is a false sense of security in legalism and rule following. Sad, very sad indeed.

  12. I can recommend the movie about East Germany Dale mentions, “The Lives of Others.”

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405094/

    Another good one is “Locked Up Time,” in which a filmmaker retraces her own arrest and imprisonment on political charges.

    http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/119245/Locked-Up-Time/overview

    I’d be interested in other former Fundy U students’ views of how the experience compares to that of living in a police state like the German Democratic Republic.

    1. Lets just say my husband and I both had dreams for years about prison camps and gaurd dogs, and they were always set on the NBBC campus.

    2. When I was watching the video, I couldn’t help but think of some of the recordings I have heard played back during WWII documentaries and even some from the National Holocaust Museum.
      While in no way does Fundy U equal the holocaust, the attitudes of those in charge, especially flunkies with just a little bit of power, (Brown Shirts vs. Hall Leaders)are eerily similar.

      1. Some Holocaust survivors have said that (at least in some of the camps) the cruelest people of all were the “capos”– prisoners who were given a bit of authority over other prisoners.

    3. As one who taught both at Pillsbury and Maranatha, I can identify with the idea of police state. Things were just as bad for faculty, especially if they were single. We were watched constantly, and we had to watch what we said in class because there were always students who liked to tattle on teachers as well. Through my years, I learned how to maintain a poker face and to not react to anything I saw or heard for fear of giving myself away.

      If something bad happened, I learned to keep it to myself. During my fourth year at Pillsbury, I went through deep despair over things that were said about me, and all through that time I had nobody I could trust to even get things out of my system. On the positive side, I learned to be self-sufficient, but on the negative side, I learned that I could trust no one. My fifth year was miserable because I realized that I was there because I outsmarted the authorities, but I knew that I was not really welcome. My first years at Maranatha were better, but I had learned to be a very private person for my survival. I finally could not take things anymore, and I made my plans for escape by going for a second MA at a state university. I then made my move to get out of there and get my doctorate, which I earned seven years later. Even when I was at Oklahoma State, I couldn’t get beyond whispering things for fear that I would be overheard and consistently watching my back.

      I have been at a state university for 21 years now and am so very happy. I’m making very good money, when I am home, I am definitely away from work, and I can do as I please without having to worry about someone reporting on me. I’m highly respected where I work. It is now hard for me to even comprehend how I survived those ten years teaching at fundamentalist schools. I’m free to be a Christian on my own terms. I play organ at a church, and I am able float from one culture to another–that of school and church. There is something very liberating to be able to tell those judgmental pharisaical people to shove it without having to pay a price. I went back to Maranatha once since I left, and it was wonderful to enter the place without wearing a tie, having a necklace on, and acting like I didn’t have a care in the world as to what they said or thought. To tell these people that their ideas are their opinion and that I am not bound by them was such a wonderful experience. I had the wonderful experience of responding to one such individual who told me that he would pray for me to pray for himself because he would need it badly if he didn’t back off.

      1. Awesome story, Bob! Glad you were able to leave and are happy teaching were you are at now.

  13. Jelly Beans…Jelly Beans….If you know what I’m talking about, you were there when Dale with Student Body President.

    3. Love it… I’m hoping Dale will mention this in a post or video sometime during this series – he plans to do more videos along this topic.

  14. He found a lot of eagerness about fundamental Baptist theology – social customs – but not Jesus. What a sad indictment of fundy U.

    “Everybody’s making sure you’re doing the right thing” — true and feeling that constant pressure of being always judged is exhausting.

    1. “’Everybody’s making sure you’re doing the right thing’ — true and feeling that constant pressure of being always judged is exhausting.”

      But, to be fair, once we achieve a certain status at Fundy U, such as a monitor, RA, or whatever they are called now, we can put the shoe on the other foot and judge those less spiritually developed and mature. And that’s a real rush! We’re no longer exhausted because we’re the ones making the judgments and decisions about the spiritual milk drinkers.

      1. I wasn’t one of them. I WAS pleased that I was an APC then PC because I didn’t want to be seen as “not spiritual”, but I did NOT enjoy confrontation in any way and I didn’t turn people in. I think people thought of me as both naive and straight-laced so if there was rule-breaking, they hid it from me so I didn’t have to deal with that.

        1. PW: I was a PC by my 2nd semester sophomore year, and was a PC thereafter until graduation. Somehow it insulated me from such close scrutiny. I worked at the Information Desk from soph year on. I also was the untitled substitute university host (circa 1979-1980). When the U Host wasn’t available, they called on me. On one occasion, I took a guest artist series violinist (Ruggiero Ricci) and his wife out to eat on behalf of BJU, and I remember the great satisfaction that I took in replenishing her wine glass during the meal. Then, I was her “date” to her husband’s concert.

          Strange memories.But back at campus I was a PC. I also used to take a university car off campus (from the Information Desk) to get pizza when I wanted to. But damn I was spiritual.

        2. I know when I was a GA, it was nice to go off campus alone with my undergrad boyfriend (because I was older, I was considered sufficient to be our chaperone).

          It’s funny how little, normal things seem like privileges when they’re things once denied you or denied to others.

        3. PW, my wife & I had the same loophole arrangement, her being a GA and me an undergrad. We weren’t allowed to “fraternize” on campus, so we had special dispensation to go off in her GA marked car whenever we wanted for as long as we wanted, no questions asked, no permission needed.

          So why doesn’t everyone do this? We had to prove in special audience with the Dean of Men that we had already been dating for a certain amount of time before my wife’s graduation and subsequent GA position–not a very common situation or I’m sure special rules would be enacted.

          Unfortunately for others, the reverse predicament (male GA & female undergrad) does not work. They have practically zero chance at contact anywhere. As we all know the Good Book says, it’s just different with a female chaperoning herself. (I just forget the reference at this moment.)

          Good times! 🙂 Furman, Paris Mtn., etc.

        4. Paris Mt. – don’t get me started! I got called in to talk to the Acad principal (my GA position was teaching at BJA). Didn’t know why until he told me that someone had seen my fiance hugging me on Paris Mt. I said that we had and he went on about needing to be a good example. I personally thought it was ridiculous that two committed Christians over 21 years of age were considered sinning if they even held hands in public, but my POV didn’t matter, of course (and I didn’t share it).

          We ended up getting “socialed” for a couple weeks, but then again, we couldn’t be seen together on most places on campus so it wasn’t a huge difference. Still though, I was humiliated because I was a “good girl.” (Just a good girl getting thoroughly sick of being treated like a child.)

        5. They let you be your own chaperone?
          That surprises me.
          But then, I know that Fundy U is the wrong place to look for consistency or reasonableness.

        6. Probably because, in order to be approved to be a GA, we would already have been scrutinized for four years of undergrad! And, remember, it WAS only the female GAs not the guys.

  15. I recognized the hesitance he felt describing the root of the problems of the IFB. I have spent so long feeling similarly unsure why it seems so – not just petty – but evil, to me.

    2. Dear Doctor: This is an excellent video. Thanks for posting it.

      Darrell: The evolution from fundamentalism to evangelicalism is a topic worthy of discussion sometime. I’d be interested to hear from others who took this path. Was (or is) evangelicalism all they thought it would be? Or did they become disillusioned and leave both behind?

      1. I’ve taken that path. I was brought up as an ultra-Fundy homeschooler and went to PCC (it was supposed to be HAC, but things changed a little when I was in high school). I eventually abandoned all my preconceived notions and then started to rediscover God from ground zero. I’ve ended up as a very happy evangelical Christian with socially liberal leanings.

        1. I think his point was that a lot of modern fundamentalism is following the same path of cultural nroms as theology that fundamentalism took. The only disagreement I might have is that it is seems to be just the SBC and their satellites.

        2. It isn’t just the SBC but that’s the path that most former IFBers take when they leave the movement. At least that’s the path that the theology crowd that you or I would know take. And the SBC, particularly the Louisville and Lynchburg groups, intentionally seek out and befriend like-minded groups.

          In years past, there were plenty of abuse stories that come out of Calvary Chapels (RIP Chuck Smith) and movements completely unconnected to the SBC.

        3. Elijah, I do think that fundys often leave and go to the broader evangelicalism (of whatever stripe). Some of them become disillusioned after a time, and may move on to the charismatic movement.

          At some point, these people may come to see that most churches begin with the best of intentions. The pastor’s desire for self-perpetuation eventually takes over, and they begin to manipulate and control people to get the most work and money from them.

          In short, people are spiritually abused in the entire spectrum of churches, indeed of religions.

      3. I have avoided Evangelicalism like the plague. In my mind, it is little more than Fundy Lite — or was. With the attachment to conservative politics, it is rapidly converging on Fundy regular, with some parts moving even further.

        The more to the right they go, the more wrong they are.

        I have come to the Episcopalian Church. At this point, thank God, I am in a fairly liberal congregation. If it were a conservative congregation, I don’t know if I could stand it.

        And at this stage, I am dealing seriously with faith issues. A lot of damage and a lot of evil has been done in the name of Christ and Faith. It tears at my insides, as it were. Listening to the hate and abuse that come from people who claim to know God makes my stomach hurt.

        At times, hanging onto faith in the midst of all the public bad examples of it can be hard.

        I haven’t lost faith. But I often wonder. The Scripture promises that those who trust Christ are made new creations, that the Holy Spirit indwells the hearts, that the Lord works to make the person in to make them righteous and produce the fruit of the Spirit in their lives.

        So what happened? Why is the fruit of the Spirit so lacking in fundamentalism and Modern Fundamentalism? Why the meanness toward those who are not “them?” Either something is wrong with their salvation (can it be “broken”?) or something is wrong with their theology.

        So I am having quite a time rethinking theology. I want to see something that actually produces results.

        1. That’s a wise and sad observation: that so many who claim to be Christians do NOT have their lives being transformed by the Holy Spirit and are NOT displaying the fruit of the Spirit when the Bible says they will be.

          I keep thinking of Jesus’ words in Mt. 7:13-14: “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

          It frightens me that many people may be deceived and think they are true believers when, according to Jesus’ own words, they may not be.

  18. Pensacola had demerit “panels”?! We didn’t get that luxury at OBC. Once you got ’em, you got ’em. No questions asked. Everything else sounds very similar. I’m now doing REAL college and it’s so much more awesome!

  19. His understanding that the deeper issue is what their theology is saying about God is an amazing point. When I reflect on my theology, that is the question I have started to ask….what does my doctrine or theology say about God?

    And then the creating such a hostile environment with rewarding those who rat on others…its completely abusive. How very sad.

  20. @ 2:00 Hair touching your ears? there’s sin in your heart..
    if I wasn’t balding, I would grow my hair long now

  21. I believe I heard him say you have 6 sermons a week @ PCC. At least the years 93-97, we had 7 spread over 6 days. 2 on Sunday, Chapel services M,T,R,F, and Wed night service. All mandatory for students with very few exceptions. One of the benefits of getting an off campus job was you could “legally” miss Wed church.

    I got away with missing a lot more than Wed services, especially by my senior year when I had spent 3 years perfecting loopholes and manipulating attendance cards. I very early in my career figured out that the barcode on attendance cards only contained my student ID and not the actual event, so you could turn them in at any event (even if wrong color, just toss it in upside down so the usher wouldn’t notice).

    1. 92-96 survivor here… Don’t forget the insane barrage of services during Bible Conference in the spring. That mind-numbing amount of sermons per day – I can’t even remember exactly how many. 2 morning, one afternoon, 2 evening maybe?? And they had the audacity to liken it to a spring break “time of rest and refreshing!!” I was on the ushers, and you barely had time to shove your food in your mouth and jet back to the DHA for the next round of seating.

      At least one or two occasions, a brave few of us DARED to challenge the system on a Sunday night or Wed. night by hiding in closets or under beds in our room and avoiding the room check once church started. Then we crawled out and sat around in the floors, avoiding the windows and never daring to turn on a light, but feeling quite proud of ourselves for missing a required church service. How pathetic that seems now, lol.

      2. BTW, I forget what year it was (prob 96 or 97) they started having a small band play somewhere around the Commons/Mess hall as you walked form the dorms to the DHA during Bible Conference.

        I tossed about $3 in pocket change in their direction to great laughter. I actually thought before hand “odds of getting demerits and is it worth it”, and decided it was very worth it. No demerits somehow.

      3. Maybe the female hall leaders @ BJU were more devious or something. They opened the closets as part of room check for mandatory activities. I knew a couple of girls -excuse me, women- who were caught that way.

        One managed to get out of demerits because she’d dressed for Artist Series (so as not to draw attention) & claimed she was just playing a practical joke on the HL.

        The other one was in her pj’s, so there was no way out. 👿

      4. Bible Conference, ack!!! FIVE SERVICES A DAY. I was more exhausted than if we had just skipped “spring break” and stuck to our regular class schedule. And they always gave us so much homework, so you were basically going to service, doing homework, eat quick, service, homework, etc. I think we had missions conference and prophecy conference on alternating years, but honestly I can’t remember. I went in the mid-2000s.

  22. Why do I feel like beginning my first comments on this website with,”Hi, I’m ‘Ben’ and I’m a fundamentalist?”

    In the early 80’s, as a serviceman stationed overseas, God opened my heart and mind and I understood the gospel and believed on Jesus Christ. To my deep regret, however; when I came back to the states I visited, and ended up joining an IFB church. Actually, this wasn’t really your ordinary fundy church, but more like a fundy church on steroids.

    I enrolled in the fire science program at a nearby junior college, which, to be honest, was a good match for someone with my interests and natural aptitudes. Of course the pastor had known firemen, and he essentially described them as being the vilest bunch of hell-bound degenerates and sexual perverts he’d ever met. There was also a fair amount of preaching of the “Devil State”/”Satan U” kind. I didn’t finish the semester. I did, however, manage to get a Red Cross life saving certificate which I couldn’t use because naturally the church was against mixed bathing.

    In any case, shortly thereafter, I was having some personal problems and naively I went to the pastor to to ask him if he thought getting some kind of Christian counseling would be a good idea. He responded that I should instead go to Roloff Enterprises. To make a rather long story short, I took his advice and ended up completing (minus one day) what would the folks down there would probably have considered a six month “program.” Later, after working manual labor among other things, I decided to further my education by attending Hyles-Anderson College.

    With regards to the idea of my attending HAC, my dad was horrified and appalled and an uncle tried to talk me out of it. Unfortunately because neither of them were born again Christians, I wrote off their advice as “the counsel of the ungodly.” To be honest, the road to Hyles was paved with good intentions. The pastor was sincere in his advice, but the end results were the same as if his motive had been undiluted malevolence.

    Sorry for writing such a long post.

    1. Dear Ben Padraic:

      God’s good world is full of the grace and glory of the Lord. Breathe deeply and rejoice in the freedom that is ours in Jesus Christ.

      So glad that you are here. Welcome to Stuff Fundies Like.

      Blessings!

      Christian Socialist

    2. Hi, Ben, and welcome.
      Most of us here have made some decisions we wish we hadn’t at one time or another.

        1. George is an evil gremlin who lives in Darrell’s server. He makes typos and grammatical errors between hitting the “submit” button and the post showing up

          (Rumor has it he bears a strong resemblance to regular poster Lord Don.
          I know I’ve never seen them both at the same time.)

        3. The hover text is a little box that shows up when you move your mouse over the picture. Usually there’s an extra little tidbit of info or an amusing sentence there.

        4. I’m blaming my slow computer for this one. It only showed me Ben’s question; I started answering about George, then saw Uncle Wilver’s answer. I commented about the hovertext and only THEN did my computer deign to show me Uncle Wilver’s SECOND comment.

          Is George now witholding comments only to grudgingly dole them out later?

    3. I made the mistake of going to my pastor for depression/anxiety counseling. I wrote a letter to him expressing how messed up it was that when I requested he “refer” me to a “Christian counselor” with a degree, he stated, “I don’t know any and if I did, I wouldn’t tell you about any of them.” I’ve yet to send the letter. Needless to say, I’m still living with depression/anxiety a whole 6 years later and have seen several counselors – some forthcoming as Christian, and some that are Christians but don’t feel the need to boast about it. Don’t get me wrong, I’m fine. I just become very angry for letting that man dictate that early portion of my life.

      Unlike what fundamentalists tell you, whatever decisions you’ve made in the past doesn’t have to dictate your future. Your life didn’t hinge on whether you should or shouldn’t have gotten a ‘Christian education’ or whatever. Just look forward, and know your experiences have taught you invaluable lessons.

      1. Megan,

        It’s great to hear that you’re doing well.

        You and I both found out the hard way that there is a fair sized chunk of fundamentalism that regards psychiatrists, psychologists, and even professional Christian counselors with suspicion, and regards their work as, at best, unscriptural.

        Have a blessed day!

    4. Ben: Did you follow through with your firefighting? BTW I’ve spent a career working in public service, 25 years in law enforcement, the last 6 also overseeing fire administration, and I have only the deepest of respect and admiration for cops and firefighters. Both are capable of lifting a glass, which I appreciate along with them. As for being “hell bound” I’d say that anyone who has been an attack or wildland firefighter has already done their time in hell.

      1. A friend of mine is a police officer and I share your respect.

        Unfortunately, the answer to your question is no. Quite a while back now I applied for a position as a public safety officer for a village. Passed the written test, the physical test and was interviewed, but didn’t get hired. That’s the closest I ever got. What it boils down to is that by the time I came to myself, a lot of the opportunities that we get when we’re younger were no longer available.

        With (fairly indirect)regards to your second post, my father used to like to quote an English statesman (I think) who said, “Always forgive your enemies. But only after they’ve been hanged.”

    5. Ben, I loved being a volunteer firefighter. However I let my MoG talk me into quitting (he didn’t like me making runs on Sundays)… As soon as I work off all this weight I’ve gained I’m going to go back.

      I loved firefighting and was fairly depressed when I quit to serve the MoG.

      1. Best of success to you with getting back to work as a volunteer firefighter. Unfortunately, I’m too old to get hired by a regular fire department, but maybe it’s not to late to become a volunteer.

        Hey, is that John Candy as the Mog, half man, half dog? he was his own best friend, wasn’t he?

        3. Ben, most of the fire departments in the US are volunteer. Some are combination (volunteer and paid); the larger cities tend to have all paid firefighters. Please consider volunteering. You may not want to be an attack firefighter (going inside burning structures) but please remember that we always need engineers to operate the apparatus. The engineers don’t have to go through the Self-Contained Breathing Apparatus (SCBA) fit testing. This is an OSHA requirement for those wearing SCBA. Engineers are an integral part of our fight against “the enemy” which is fire. Engineers can operate even if they are outside the normal parameters of youth that are normal for attack firefighters.

          I’ve been steamed all day about your former pastor speaking ill about firefighters. I hope that he never has a house fire. But if he does, will he call his IFB brethren over to fight the fire, or will he called those who devote themselves to training to fight fires? Sorry if this seems to have touched a nerve with me. I’m pretty protective of the cops and firefighters who work, and who have worked, for me. They’re my personal heroes.

          Fighting fire, and fighting criminals, are real. After decades it seems to me sometimes that these are the only real fights. The religious fights seem like jealous spats between different sects that want us to open our wallets to them. Sorry to sound harsh, but after these decades, I feel like most of these preachers are just a bunch of bastards.

        4. Yes, that is Barf, the Mog! I was never elevated to the level of Mog though. I only made it up the ladder to music director.

    6. Thanks for posting, Bob. I love cherishing the thought that despite any past choices I have made, God still has amazing plans for me. Welcome to SFL. Glad you could join us.

      J. Knox

    7. I consider these Fundy pastors dream killers. So many young people with great potential are discouraged from pursuing their natural talents, instead to be pigeonholed into whatever the mannogawd considers “God’s perfect will” for their lives.

  23. Even as a Town Student, I was supposed to attend the extra events (Artist Series, Vespers, services, etc) at Unusual U. During the second of the three years I was there, I made the work schedule at the company that employed me. I mysteriously had to work during most events I didn’t want to attend. It was kind of nice.

    There, if your name showed up on the Discipline Committee list, you were expected to show up and answer about the demerits you should receive. At the end of the first semester of my last year, a buddy of mine and I went out to lunch and to some pawn shops and tool stores. We decided to blow off the mandatory service that afternoon, since we could afford the demerits. My first daughter showed up that week, and because of finals, there was only one chance to see the committee. I skipped that, too, to take my wife and newborn home from the hospital. I should have had 25 demerits for the service, and 10 for missing “DC”. I stopped by the deans office to check the damage. I was told that since I had such a good record, it was assumed I had missed both inadvertently. The gave me 10 and 5 instead of 25 and 10.

    I can’t say the system was without problems, but it worked improperly in my favor. I also decided honesty was not necessarily the best policy at that point in time.

      1. I thought so, also. When I went to the deans office, I fully planned to try to get out of the missed DC demerits. But who was I to tell them they may have made a mistake about the others?

        I can’t remember what any other “D’s” were for, but I must have acquired a few. I never received what we called the “goody-two-shoes” letter reserved for the most obedient of the sheep.

        1. UW, I don’t think I’ve ever asked you: which years did you attend Unusual U?

        3. Just missed you. ’90-’94. Though Sweet Mama was in Acad ’87 and then in the U ’88-’94.

          Lucky townie. I tried every scheme in and out of the book to get Town status. I even responded to an ad of a quadriplegic who was looking for live-in househelp and help finding a house so he could be a student. All was looking good until someone looked at my age and nixed the whole thing. (Feeling a little guilty now for blatantly using the guy. I did care for him in the dorm though.)

    2. Dear Uncle: The artist series, for me, were the only redemptive feature of the world’s most unusable university. I developed a love for classical music and the opera, and still regularly attend these events in my city.

      1. The only one I remember actually scheduling myself to work all the performances was “Rigoletto”. I don’t dislike opera, but I don’t like them all, either. Aida was definitely a good nap night.
        Most Artist Series were excellent, and I have even gone back for a few. I also enjoyed most of the Vespers.

        1. I may have scheduled me to work extra during Bible Conference. That sounds like something I might have done, anyway.

  24. Dear SFL Reader:

    What our friend describes has no redemptive purpose. Having hijacked the language of faith, they thereafter exist for their own sake. Such schools are an end to themselves. They provide jobs for some, which in turn produce ‘preachers’ and ‘churches’ which likewise exist for themselves. Like the ‘churches’ that support them, such schools contribute very little at all to God’s kingdom.

    Others rightfully noted that the ‘rules’ are a symptom of a deeper issue. While he does not make the connection explicit, I think that he names that deeper issue at the close in his remarks about ‘spiritual abuse.’

    The oft cited claim schools make about inculcating discipline as the path to maturity are thoroughly cynical. Fundamentalist churches and schools do not want maturity in their membership and student bodies; mature people would refuse to be manipulated. They would stand up and state dispassionately the case in ways that would not allow such churches or schools to hind behind the facade of religiosity.

    I repeat a comment I made several days ago, fundamentalism as a whole is untouched by the gospel and needs to be converted to Jesus Christ.

    Christian Socialist

    1. Christian Socialist:

      “Like the ‘churches’ that support them, such schools contribute very little at all to God’s kingdom.”

      I believe you are correct here in a big way.

      The BJU-cloned IFB church that I just recently left is a classic example of a CEO and ministry (concerning which he said to me, “this is my ministry.”) cloned in the likeness of its alma mater. It is a cold, sterile place designed to be a “show window” of excellence.

      There is very little life, however. I also believe there is an answer to this madness.

      B.R.O.

  25. I grew up in that exact same environment (the fundy Christian school that is) until I graduated. I remember sitting through all those recruiters who came. We had the regular PCC, BJ, Maranatha, even West Coast… though no one ever went there I knew. Each time it was really the same. I mean once the speaker gave a message on something about being better for Christ in our daily walk (with little to say about his school), but the rest of them all seemed to give messages on being in the “Will of God .” This was just one of the things that made my girlfriend and I realize how crazy all these people were and the tactics they used to create attendance.

    By they way, once you finally get out the world seems so much brighter, people you meet everyday (in the “world” I mean) are so much nicer, you can be nicer to them, and whenever you see someone you used to know from IFB (after the pity) there is a sense of relief and happiness. That is what I have found at least. Just wanted to encourage you and let you know there is good things on the other side.

  26. Dear Darrell:

    Here’s a thought! Consider framing occasional posts around ‘definitions’ encountered in fundamentalism.

    Example:

    Spiritual Growth:

    The art and practice of being obsequious to those above you, and contemptuous of those below you.

    Christian Socialist

    1. Christian Socialist,

      Man, did you nail that definition! Also, thanks for the words of encouragement in one of your earlier posts.

  27. “The pursuit of excellence”

    Try to define this one. I’m still trying to put my finger on it.

    My former fundy CEO often spoke of excellence. This reminds me of a cemetary; Perfectly aligned stones, well-maintained lawns, and beautiful infra-structure. Excellence with no life.

    1. “Fundy CEO” is spot on. It is such a business. My Former Fundy CEO even demanded proper CEO level pay.

  28. I’m from a chrsitian home, and (fortunately) had a secular primary, seconday and tertiary education.

    From my experience, the situation described in the video just seems bonkers.

  29. I grew spiritually while I was at PCC (86-92), but it was not a result of much of anything the college did other than having some good preachers in occasionally. I like to say ‘God uses PCC in spite of itself’. I agree that there is an underlying wrong view of God and the school’s responsibility in ‘protecting’ students.
    I met my wife there (21 years and three boys later) and have many good, funny, and ridiculous memories. There are some bad memories as well but I save most of them as ‘you won’t believe this’ stories. I won’t recommend it for my kids but I won’t prohibit them either, but they would go informed and prepared. Leaning toward Liberty for my boys.

  30. Then there were the super-spiritual folk who would turn themselves in. And get demerits. And be very proud of it…sigh…

    2. That could turn into a fun game.
      Who can get demerits for the most ridiculous offense?

      “Dean, I’ve been having impure thoughts … about drinking unapproved soft drinks …”

      “I wore the wrong kind of pajamas to bed last night …”

      “I accidentally stepped on the Ladies’ sidewalk, even though I’m a man …”

      1. “I forgot to punch the “Office Max” button on the off-campus computer….and I went to Office Max.”

        “I took 2 sunday night hot pocket meals instead of 1”

        “I cooked ramen in my bathroom instead of the floor ice room”

      2. “I forgot to put condoms on my eyeballs in the Palms grille (with an “e”)….the girl I’m courting MUST be pregnant”

        “I decided to go to Fine Arts multiple nights, just so I can sit in the dark with my boyfriend”

        2. @biggary. I know it sounds insane, but they used to tease about having too much “eye sex” in the Palm Grille and Commons room…the Social Hall too. You could get “socialed” (not allowed to talk to the anyone of the opposite sex for 2 weeks) for inappropriate eye contact. Seriously.

      3. It’s easy to laugh at, but I actually knew someone who turned himself in for having a bad attitude!

  31. Okay, I’ve been lurking for a while, but this touches a nerve. How are your children being treated? When we took ours out of the church school, they were bullied by their peers on Sundays and Wednesdays. Unfortunately, Christian school kids sit through sermons (directed at parents) on how it’s God’s will that they be there, and it turns them into little Pharisees. For example, one of the six-graders I was still teaching in Sunday School said I was a “traitor to the church”.

    The final straw was our thirteen-year-old son, tearfully begging to be allowed to stay home one Sunday night. That opened my husband’s eyes, for he was afraid to step away after 13 years. He admitted fearing we wouldn’t have any friends. I reminded him that most of ours had joined the church after we did, new members we had befriended.

    “That can happen again,” I said. And it did! Yes, there were separation pains, but the fresh air on the other side was so worth it. We found a gentler fellowship (with NO school), and our children became leaders in their youth group. It was great to see them so happy. Our only sadness was that we had waited so long.

    I understand all your angst. God forbid I lay any more upon you. But have you asked your children how they’re being treated? You’ve been there for 11 years, so that’s all they know. Most children born into abusive situations just assume that’s how life is, and cope as best as they can. I HOPE they’re not being mistreated, but do please ask, if you haven’t already.

    If they are, sweetheart, you have to rescue them. Put your foot down and tell your husband he’ll have to go alone. I’m sure he’s a wonderful man, but children’s scars go deep and sometimes never heal. I’ll be praying for you, and I’m sure others are as well. I’ll say a quick one right now about your upset stomach too! 🙂

  32. So a school’s purpose is to create an environment where learning is nurtured and maximized. By creating an atmosphere where betrayal is applauded, even rewarded, they have done the exact opposite.
    They would say their goal is to nurture Christian leaders and yet by creating rule worshiping atmosphere, they are risking the very faith they proclaim.
    They have failed at the very core of their mission. And unfortunately their pride stands in the way of any change.

    And his observation that the theology and practice of hte school is saying something horrendous about the God they are preaching and worshiping is so profound. I wonder what our faith would look like if we ask that question about all of our doctrines, theologies and practices.

    1. “yet by creating rule worshiping atmosphere, they are risking the very faith they proclaim.”
      Very good observation. Personally, I think the atmosphere at these places is the antithesis of the gospel of freedom that Paul preached. In fact, I remember several teachers going out of their way to tell students what “freedom in Christ” really meant – usually something like “freedom to obey the rules!” Their willingness to engage in the most shallow doublespeak was a huge red flag to me, even as it made me laugh.

      1. “freedom in Christ” really meant – usually something like “freedom to obey the rules!”

        How 1984-like!

        We heard the same crap on the west coast. Grace to enable you to Three to Thrive! Grace to give to our building program!

        As if they actually knew anything about grace.

  33. I recently learned that the words “spiritual growth” & “be in the Word daily” (or similar to that effect) are triggers for me as a result of the spiritual abuse that happened at Fundy U. 🙁

    1. For Fundies, “spiritual growth” apparently means “being ever more obedient to the rules.”

      That’s not what it means in the rest of the world.

    2. I hear you, Kreine. I am very triggered by the word “biblical,” as in, “Is that even biblical?” or “What’s the biblical thing to do?”

      Just typing that makes my heart race. I was controlled and abused for many years by that term!

    3. Dear Kreine, Michelle M and Big Gary:

      I think that several ‘Biblical’ texts speak to the phenomena under discussion:

      Let not him who eats regard with contempt him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats, for God has accepted him … One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind … for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit [Ro 14:3, 5, 17].

      I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ [Ga 1:6-7].

      No one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day [dress codes, music preferences, etc.] … Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement … inflated without cause by his fleshly mind … These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence [Co 2:16, 18, 23].

      … for the Law made nothing perfect, and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God [He 7:19].

      It is abundantly clear that no amount of sacrifice or effort or external regulations can perfect our conscience to serve God, and that the clean conscience we need is secured for us through the blood of Christ. Moreover, it is precisely from ‘nekros ergon’ [dead works] that the conscience must be cleansed to serve God. While the
      heretical connection of internal conscience and external rule keeping stands, we cannot serve God [He 9:8-14].

      In ethics, theology and public witness, Fundamentalism is a failure. The fundamentalist system of ethics is irreconcilable with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Lacking a theology of Christ’s mediatorial dominion through which grace is present everywhere in the world, Fundamentalism can only disallow us to be in the world however much we are not of the world. A virulent Gnostic tendency infects Fundamentalism at numerous points. Fundamentalism stands to be confronted with the fact of its departure from Biblical faith.

      Christian Socialist

  34. I was at this same Fundy U while Dale was there. He really paints an accurate portrait of how things were there at that time. It was literally….prison. I had awful floor leaders….

  35. Being a married town student, as well as a little older and less impressionable, I really don’t have any good war stories from Unusual U. I followed the rules (mostly) I knew weren’t my own while a student there, things like not going to movies, and it was really no big deal. It did seem kind of silly that I could go to Phar-Mor and rent three movies for $1.49 (or $.79 each for one or two) over the weekend, but could not go to the theater to watch one.
    But then, consistency and legalism have never been synonymous.

    1. Video tapes (and fundy hypocrisy regarding them) were the first steps for my husband and I in rejecting BJU-type fundamentalism. (We were fundy-lite for many years — we called ourselves “balanced” and truly tried to be — before making the final break.)

      We too followed the rules in college, but we thought it was sheer foolishness to call theaters sinful while regarding video stores as acceptable.

    2. I started my way out of fundamentalism because of the music legalism. I would listen to Chuck Swindoll on BBN (here in NC – don’t know if anyone else has access to it). I checked out his church’s website one day and realized they played “CCM” (BTW, if you call it “CCM” to anyone who listens to it regularly, they generally don’t know what you’re talking about). WHAT!? I had no idea. I’d been listening to a heretic!

      I realize how silly all that is now. It wasn’t long after that I quit fundamentalism.

      1. Music was one of the LAST things for me! It’s only been within the last few years that I’ve totally changed my beliefs about music. (And I am so happy that God led me to the realization that “God-honoring music” isn’t necessarily what the fundies say it is.)

        1. Music is a tough area, for some reason. My hang up was that for a long time, I compartmentalized my music. I had rationalized the different types I like, and in my mind what was right or wrong, as well as where it was acceptable. Not everything I liked was “right”, so I invented reasons why I could listen and not be sinning. I still have baggage and flashbacks, but at least I’ve (mostly) lost foolish guilt and quit judging other people by my personal taste.

          Back in the 70’s at Fundy High we were told pretty much that all rock music and country music were evil. Period. Yet the pastor/school administrator listened to an easy-listening station in his office. Most of the songs were orchestrated popular music, and we would hear him whistling rock songs he heard on his station. If it was always evil, then how did adding violins and dropping the words make it okay? Anyone who did not know he listened to that station would assume he was whistling the actual song. So much for “testimony”.

          I even heard Frank Garlock’s The Big Beat A Rock Blast a couple of times during my High School years. Oh, the evils of that worldly music!

      2. I was a fundie music director listening to CCM, then a block away from church pressing my “fundie” button on the radio to reset all the stations to local fundie approved stations (WSOF, WGAB, and ESPN Radio (sport are ok as long as you can’t see the beer commercials)).

  36. WOW! I’m glad I’m out of that mess. I took the family to “Satans Bookstore” (our local library) last night. I ran across the book “I Fired God”. It’s written by an IFB survivor who was subjected to major abuse. I only made it through chapter 3, but makes me so glad that we were able to escape.

    1. Is that Jocelyn Zichterman’s book? She experienced some horrific things; it’s obvious she’s pretty damaged by it. 🙁

      1. It is – I just googled with hopes of finding a new source to read. Then I saw the author and said, “Oh.”

        I might read it anyway. I think BASSENCO reviewed it; is it in the forums?

      2. It is, reading the first two chapters about her past were horrifying. Myself I became a fundie at 11 years old, fortuantly I bypassed a lot of what she went through. However I did see this stuff happening and several “hey minions, look, a deer” from the MoG when something like this started to come out in the open.

        The Internet is killing the fundie movement right now. Back then all we had to report this stuff was the local news, and the Mogs were really good at making the kids reporting the issue look like nut-balls and they were the savior of the day trying to help. Scumbags…

    2. I also recommend “Crazy for God” by Franky Schaeffer, the son of the late great you know who.

    3. Chuck Swindoll’s Grace Awakening is a great book for a former (or soon to be former) Fundy.

      1. That book is wonderful! Reading it helped me make the final step to leave the IFB and embrace Christ’s freedom. I especially enjoyed Swindoll’s comments about “no people” and their “no faces.”

  37. If lovesredwoods joins the forum, you two can send PMs without any personal info being divulged.

  38. After 4 years of church, Bible conferences, and chapels at PCC, I now:

    * am determined to stay home from Sunday night and Wednesday services as much as possible unless I decide to go for myself. It took years for me to get over feeling guilty for skipping church for the Super Bowl or other personal reasons.

    * am determined to never wear a tie again unless forced to for a wedding or funeral.

    I think I sat through enough sermons at PCC to last a couple of lifetimes!

    1. It should be fun to get dressed up for a special occasion. It sucks that empty and overbearing rules and regulations ruins the fun of normal things.

    2. “I think I sat through enough sermons at PCC to last a couple of lifetimes!”

      Amen brother–I’ve pretty much heard every and any variant of a message a fundy preacher would teach, while at that asylum.

  39. When I attended my fundyU, I was called into the deans office 4 times. It became a joke to see how insignificant an action could get you landed in the dean’s office. Mine were:

    1- building a fort out of mattresses in the basement of one of the dorms (students had been watching movies in the forts we created).
    2- wearing a fluorescent pink suit to the required “fine arts ” event.
    3- wearing all black the following Friday to mourn the lack of life on campus.
    4- a roommate typing in “worlds largest breasts” into a search engine on my computer. He tried to disguise it by typing in sever “worlds largest” entries but they are clever ones up there in the deans office, there’s no getting around it

    I’d love to hear so,e other ridiculous deans office meetings from the folks here

    1. Dr Ken,I wasn’t there to see you in your splendiferous pink suit, but I think that was awesome and I applaud you for it.

    2. Since you’ve already paid the price, tell us:
      Who does have the world’s largest breasts?

    3. WHAT YEAR?!?! I remember one man wearing a neon pink suit to a couple different fine arts while I was there! 😆 😀

    4. You got in trouble for wearing a fluorescent pink suit? I can’t imagine doing so broke any rules. So why were you in trouble? Because you found a way around their rules, using their rules against them, and thus mocking the rules? They didn’t have a sense of humor?

      I imagine that they couldn’t allow a young man to do something silly like this because they are The Authority, loving control and demanding respect, utterly unable to ever laugh at themselves.

        1. This ought to be good. What’s the school’s theory about why yellow shoes are wrong?

        2. It was something vague, like being “too noticeable” or too “garish” or something like that. No set rule, just one of those arbitrarily wrong things to do.

        3. If they were bright yellow they called attention to her feet and wimmin’s feet need to be fully covered, or at least ignored, at all times. If a man notices her feet, he’ll notice her ankles. If he notices her ankles, he’ll realize she has legs. It only leads a man into more realizations and more lust the higher up his eye goes. Controlling a man’s lust starts with controlling a woman’s footwear.

    5. As a teacher in a non-denom Christian school, We occasionally have students do something silly to poke fun at rules. One boy especially enjoys tying his tie (yes…every Friday…sigh), so that it only hangs to the middle of his chest (I realize this is no pink suit…). personally, I choose to ignore. I mean, so what? There’s no rule about tie length.

      To my employers’ credit, the school has come a long way since I began working there. So many silly fundy rules have been dropped, including earring size & number rules, nail polish rules, etc. They finally stopped checking the kids’ FB pages, deciding that it wasn’t the school’s business – it was the parents’.

      Gives me hope.

    6. What if you made a typo while typing:
      – World’s largest chicken breasts
      – World’s largest beats
      – World’s largest brats
      – World’s largest …

      I mean, there are any number of explanations here.

      Hahahahaha!

      1. Now you’ve got me wondering where the world’s largest brats are (I ate some brats at Oktoberfest last night).

        1. Google found me a story about a 152-foot-long, 80-pound bratwurst (but apparently only as big around as a regular brat).

          http://www.digtriad.com/news/watercooler/article/297438/176/WI-Grocer-Grills-Worlds-Largest-Bratwurst

          … and Madison, Wisconsin apparently hosts a “World’s Largest Brat Fest,” but it seems it’s the Fest that’s the world’s largest, not the brats.

          http://food-fun.wisconsinfood.com/edible_antics/2008/05/summer-starts-i.html

          However, I won’t be satisfied until I get a ride in this:

          http://images.hemmings.com/wp-content/uploads//2011/07/wienermobile_1000.jpg

          … Although I might settle for a ride in this:

          http://hotdoggerblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/ssl22553.jpg

          (I know those last two aren’t technically bratwurst, but they’re in the right family.)

        3. How *dare* you lump brats in with those wiener abominations? Despite being ground meats & seasonings forced into casings, they are *nothing alike*! Sure, there may be *some* brats that look & taste like hot dogs (& I practice biblical separation from them), but it’s unfair to lump all bratwurst into the same family as hot dogs because of the appearance of a few. 😡

        4. I’m just shocked that Amercans eat brats! Naughty kids can be annoying, I know, but that’s no reason to resort to cannibalism.

          Won’t somebody please think of the children!!!!!

          😛

    7. BTW, I seriously LOL’d about the pink suit. Amazing. I bet they were thinking, “man, we’ve got to mend the rule book now with Rule # 1,476,981.

    8. I may have mentioned this before, but I was once called into the Dean of Women’s office for walking down the sidewalk alone when there were two girls walking together about 20 or so feet in front of me.

      1. What was your supposed infraction? Forsaking the assembling of yourselves together?

  40. I was a student at BJU in the late nineties. Dorm life was the worst. One dorm supervisor in particular was the most hateful bitch there. She knew nothing about love and kindness. If you didn’t walk by her and coo her name (“Hi, Miss Whiiiiiiiite!), she assumed you had a spiritual problem and made your life miserable. Instead of trying to get to know me and asking me how I was doing (I was shy and a little homesick) she would question my APC and PC all the time about me. I was keeping all the rules (at that time 😉 ) but in her eyes I was trouble and had a bad attitude. Because of people like her I did develop a bad attitude by my junior year 🙂

    1. Miss White was my dorm sup for 2 years!

      She had a “get acquainted ‘party'” for the APCs & PCs. One of the bonding exercises was sharing a funny or embarrassing story about yourself – but your story couldn’t embarrass her.

      I failed. :mrgreen:

      1. She should have had a ‘get acquainted’ party with a plastic surgeon to get that lip of hers fixed 😉

        1. That *was* fixed!

          Coincidentally, her younger sis was in my society (Kappa Rho). Good times. *cough, sputter*

        2. I remember her sister. What a pair of sour prudes.
          I looked at the BJU website a few months ago and White is teaching psychology there now. Yikes.

      2. Every school has people like that, but not every school is run by (and for?) people like that.

    2. OK I went to the BJU website to see who is on faculty. I was shocked to see the photos of fossilized remains (or so it appeared) of people on faculty that were teaching there when I graduated in 1980. They looked like flipping ‘Weekend at Bernie’s” models.

      2. It is sad. I know there are some who truly are good, qualified instructors who have given their lives only to have very little in the way of any type of comfortable retirement. Many don’t even own their own homes.
        I wouldn’t say they wasted the career they chose, but they do deserve a little more dignity than to be pawns until death.

      3. I have a relative pushing 90 who still works at BJU. It’s only 1 day/week & she likes feeling useful…but still, it’s the principle of the thing.

  41. Dale; a superbly honest and non-aggressive interview – all credit to the man.
    Having been in fundieland for several years, and now out of it for many more, and being a pastor who has tried, often unsuccessfully, to work alongside colleagues more fundie than myself, I have a growing hunch that I know what underlies the fixation on rules that Dale doesn’t quite get round to exploring: Fundies dare not trust in unmerited grace. The kind of God who offers that is way to dangerous to be let loose on your congregation. Anything might happen; heartfelt questions may get asked, and the answer may come from a woman or a child and not from the pulpit; people who are very different from us may find God attractive, and God might let them get away with a lifestyle that unnerves us whilst He sorts out the things in them that really matter; and worst, people may fall for a relationship with a living God, the Word made flesh, and leave behind a Koranic belief that the Word was, in fact, made paper.
    So, you need a cage to keep God in, rules. And not just enough to make a few bars, but enough to obscure God almost entirely. And when you’ve got enough rules you hold up your Golden Calf and bow down to worship it. (I’ve never heard a sermon on the Golden Serpent from a few chapters earlier that was apparently okay with God though).

  42. I have a funny story about my worst floorleader. I actually had her my junior and senior years. She had my ID# memorized and would take joy in writing me up w/o telling me and I would have to go to DC on Tuesday nights to find out what the demerits were for. Anyway, after my senior year, I got married that summer and had one more semester to go, so I was a married town student. My hubby and I were walking around the local mall, holding hands and smoochin. He went into the bookstore and I walked down to Victoria’s Secret. That crazy floorleader (who had no idea I was married) ambushed me in front of pink lacey bras, grabbed my arm and told me she saw that I was off campus with a man, holding hands, and kissing. She said she was going immediately to the Dean’s office and rat me out. I just smiled, pinched her bitchy fingers OFF of my arm and told her I was going to find that man, and instead of just kiss him, I was going to screw his brains out right there in the mall floor. You have never seen such a look of horror on a person’s face…….justice. True story.

  43. Darrell–
    Are there key words that do not allow a post to be posted? I have an attempt I have made 5 times, and it never shows up, although I have gotten a message that it has already been posted.

    While it isn’t anything earth shattering, it is annoying.

    1. Uncle, you’re probably trying to post about big breasts and they got caught in the filter?

    2. Same here – had a story to share but have been unable to get it to post… Maybe we are banned. 🙂

      1. well, this stuff is posting, so maybe it’s just our “cool story, bro” stuff that is banned, lol. Mine was about hiding in the rooms at PCC to skip church. Sinners!!

        1. Drifting, have you tried your story again? I seem to be able to post anything but my silly anecdote. It doesn’t post no matter what I try.

    4. Did you try and post a link to a website? Sometimes if you have one embedded it will not post.

      1. Nope. Only words. I’ve never had a link not post, or had this problem before. I haven’t tried anything new. I guess George doesn’t like the story I tried to tell. As best as I can recall, he wasn’t one of the parties involved.

    5. Instead of the cut and paste I had been trying, I retyped the whole thing. I’m starting to wonder where 10 similar copies of the same lame anecdote have wound up. It sure isn’t here.

      1. I kept getting the same message, so then I changed a couple of words. It acted like it posted successfully, but still never showed up. Weirdness.

  44. Somehow, and the older I get the more I realize just how close I came to being forced to go, I managed not to attend “Bible College.” Thank God that HSLDA had just started Patrick Henry College around that time and my father, who was at his most political since GB43 just got elected, decided it was okay for me to go there. It was sort of run like a Bible College but instead of whacky “moral” rules (we just had the basic don’t drink or fornicate on campus kind of stuff — pretty much were allowed to do whatever we wanted otherwise), it was just a lot of whacky politically-motivated rules (basically being anything other than a tea party evangelical Christian put you on the black list).

    BUT, even though PHC failed in its bid for accreditation, the fact that it was still in candidacy status when I went there allowed me to transfer to the University of Dallas to finish with an accredited degree. (PHC ultimately didn’t get SACS but it did get TRACS.)

    So, in the end, I avoided the scandal that is “Bible College.” But waaaaaaay too many kids I grew up with threw their lives away at PCC, WCBC, and others.

  45. Alas, I can’t join the forum. I’m taking care of a very sick person, and have no energy to spare. All I can manage is a “drive by” because I saw myself in your post.

    Forgive my getting all new-agey, but please get to a quiet place and mentally push past the barriers the fundamentalists have erected.

    Imagine your son, on the eve of his wedding, taking you aside and thanking you for fighting for him. What do you think I would trade for that memory? And it almost didn’t happen!

    Because I feared to make waves, after years of sermons on how I was the inferior part of the marriage. Yes, couched in platitudes on how we are equal, but with separate responsibilities, etc., etc., but I got the message.

    It took my children being bullied to push me past my fear. And I learned a great lesson. My husband needed me as much as I needed him. As long as he knew I was in his corner, he could gather the strength to leave.

    Now, please imagine the very worst thing that could happen. That would be your husband leaving you (I’m presuming he’s not abusive). What would you do? It would be bad, but you would figure out a way to carry on.

    Only, he’ll very likely not leave, will he? Just suffer some anxiety, maybe be angry for a while. This is hard on him. Maybe some of the men could advise you better on how to help him through this.

    In any event, you, my dear, must realize your worth. You are honest and kind, and the nurturer of your family. You MUST become a tigress protecting her children. That matters more than anything.

    Again, praying for you.

  46. Dr. Noisewater’s question about Dean’s office visits brought back a couple of incidents from summer semester at TTU in ’81. Here is one:

    I was written up for setting off fireworks in the dormitory. The actual offense was I tossed a small toy that you could put a cap from a cap gun into, which would set off the cap on impact. I tossed it just in front of the hall checker as he walked by one evening. I plead my case to the dean of men, who gave me a portion of the fireworks demerits, because “caps are a form of fireworks”.

      1. I probably didn’t say anything. I was not very old when I realized my propensity to say things I thought were hilarious, but seemed to only make matters worse. Not that even all these years later I remember that very often……

        I also might have lit some fireworks on campus at Unusual U, but that’s for another time.

        2. Fortunately, I was not very old when I learned from my older brothers’ examples that a propensity to say things I thought were hilarious seemed to only make matters worse. Not that even all these years later I remember that very often.

    2. Things I had to show up in Dean of Men’s office over in my time at PCC:

      Help deliver inter-dorm mail (Pan Hellenic @ PCC) as a freshman and supposedly someone got a bottle of urine that night. They called in all the volunteers to interrogate if involved or if saw anything. First & last time I helped with that.

      Not parking in my parking spot when some jokesters had moved the parking curb in my spot to block access.

      Repeatedly parking in my spot backwards.

      ——————

      Rules I got created (that I can remember, although probably had more, and I don’t recall them):

      Men must wear shirts on East Field. One of my friends & I for like a full school year anytime we were on East Field and a very rare female would show up, would take our shirts off as a way of marking our territory. Took them about a year to get wind of our gimmickery, but that’s where that rule came from. Our goal had been to get women guests banned from East Field.

      No chairs in the hallway for hall meetings. IDK if this is still a rule, but we had a long winded hall leader who would painfully abuse hall meeting every single time, and my roommate at the time & I just started bringing chairs out. Quickly became like 70% of the hall, and banned.

      1. We could have chairs at hall meeting, and sat on the couches and on top of the tables and stuff too. But this was in the girls’ dorms and in the mid-2000s so it may have changed.

      2. Everything else aside, why in the fricking fracking flip is it anybody’s business whether you back into your parking space and pull out, or pull into your parking space and back out?

        Nuts, nuts, nuts!

        1. “OUT with the bad air, IN with the good–”

          University of fricking Camazotz.

        2. Rules about which direction cars can face generally seem to me indicative of an authority that has control issues and wants to legislate EVERYTHING or an authority that is super-concerned with outward appearance and wants everything looking uniform and neat (which comes back to a need for control!)

        3. PCC hasn’t ever said so to my knowledge, but I’m 100% certain they want you parking the “right direction” so they can quickly & effectively do parking lot checks to see if you are off campus without being signed out. I’ve also got call slips for my car being in the shop for a week after an accident about why I was off campus when I wasn’t off campus.

        4. It’s all about control. PCC also doesn’t allow you to have those windshield panels up to block the sun.

      3. hey jackass thanks a lot… my aunt and uncle came to visit me one semester and we took a “family jog” on east field one weekend. Well about 10 minutes into our exercise a “security guard” peddling as fast as he could came up to us and kicked us off of east field because may aunt wasn’t allowed to be there. There was no one else there that I can remember. Anyways I was embarrassed and they were confused as to what kind of “college” I was going to… Pensacola Concentration Camp. 🙄 by the way – I was joking about calling you a “jack ass” but seriously… thanks a lot douche.

  47. RTL – Thanks for sharing. I left the IDF after being married for a few months (with no kids). I cannot imagine having my children go through my IBF experiences. I’ll be praying that your husband stops procreating on this and that you and your family may leave soon.
    Grace and peace to you.
    J. Knox

  48. RTL, if you decide to leave, you can do it. Although it feels like being shot out of a cannon, you can leave and find a good, solid church that does not subscribe to all of the judgment, legalism and guilt. Keep your chin up.

  49. In our complicated story, r-t-l, I was the one frightened to leave. In fact, my husband actually left and began visiting other churches with the kids for several months before I finally found the courage to leave. The fear was real, but now that I’m out, I still can’t explain what I was afraid of. And your husband probably can’t either.

    So be patient, keep praying, and do what you know what God wants you to do. It’s wonderful out here in the fresh air.

  50. Lovesredwoods, it takes less time to sign up for the forums than it does to answer a post here. Please join us over there!

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