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Christian vs. Secular College: A Response

254 Comments

I’ve had roughly 8,239,106 people forward me the recent Maranatha Baptist Bible College article which attempts to prove that if you send your child (read that full-grown adult) to a secular school then you may as well just tattoo a pentagram on their head and change their name to Suzy P. Atheist — even if they’re a boy.

For those who have asked me to give a response I will give it now: it’s a load of fear-inducing, fact-eschewing, fundy-glorifying bullshit.

Come back and see me when you’ve done your due diligence with another study about how many graduates of IFB institutions have also left the faith or abandoned the “morals” they have been taught. For good measure you could also do a quick check into how many kids who were raised in church and went to no college at all are also now atheists. A quick anecdotal check of Fundy U grads I know suggest that number will be pretty high.

However, for all it lacks in academic rigor, the article does yeoman’s work in fear mongering.

Coed dorms? Why one might as well be living in…any apartment building in the country!

Liberal professors? God forbid we be exposed to other points of view!

Drinking, sex, and porn? Funny how nobody tries to warn young fundamentalist men off from joining the military where they will be exposed to all of these things and more.

If you’ve had 18 years with your young person and have not through that most impressionable time managed to convince them of your religion, politics, and philosophy then the game is pretty much over. If there are real studies that show otherwise, I’d invite MBBC to trot them out. Otherwise, I’ll remain convinced that this is no more than a last ditch attempt to remain solvent in a movement that continues its march towards oblivion.

254 thoughts on “Christian vs. Secular College: A Response”

    1. Which part, his point or using potty language to make it? 😕

      Must be the “relevant” way to communicate truth these days. 🙄

      1. Did you really just say “potty language?”

        Around here we refer to that as the ‘powder room language.’ You should be ashamed.

    2. You know, not saying “First!” really messes me up when I read the comments. You have a bad testimony, Mr S! You have caused me to stumble!

    1. OK, now that I’ve looked at the article in question, I see it’s utter and complete nonsense. All the numbers cited are fake or misleading, and the arguments are rank sophistry.

      Obviously written by a graduate of Fundy U, where this sort of thinking is taught.

      1. Yeah, even assuming that college students do lose their faith somewhere along the way (although, I find it silly that they use church attendance as a proxy for “losing your faith”), their argument that all Bible college students will ergo have their faith strengthened is a complete non-sequitur.

        1. The whole idea is nonsensical. I’d even say that kids are MORE likely to lose their faith at Fundy U. You are force fed religiosity, and you are hit with a constant barrage of “not good enough.”

      2. “Bill exhaled a small sigh of relief as he dropped the yellow legal pad onto the kitchen table. After hours of adding, subtracting, budgeting, and projecting, he had obtained clear-cut numerical evidence that his daughter Kelly would be attending State University in the fall. ”

        So Bill is sighing relief that Kelly will not have to go to Bible College? Who is the one disappointed that he cannot afford it? Must be Mom’s dream of sending her off for a Mrs. Degree.

        2. Yes, I’ve never in my life heard of a kid being able to make the Fundy U level of education on their own without their parents manipulating/sabatoging them into it.

        3. I’ve heard of kids who went to a Fundy U over their parents wishes.

          Usually because they had started attending a fundy church and their parents were non believers.

        4. I wasn’t sure if RobM was being sarcastic or not.

          I’m sure there are plenty of brainwashed fundy kids who have been raised in fundy churches and been homeschooled or fundy schooled who want to go to fundy college.

        5. I just meant that everyone I know that went to PCC went there, due to parental/high school guidance (I’d argue misguidance). Obviously kids that go in spite of their parents cautions are getting just as bad advice, just for a different source.

  3. I just wish that people could stop defining everyone as nothing more than their political viewpoints. Most of my professors (at a Presbyterian college) were much more than their political beliefs which didn’t come up much at all outside of politically oriented courses anyway. All people are much more than their political viewpoint and reducing them to that and that alone is not respecting the dignity of human beings made in the image of God as whole and complex beings.

    1. But fundies embrace the premise that you cannot be liberal and be a Christian. Because, to them, much more is required to be saved than belief in the Gospel. And one thing that certainly prevents you from being “truly saved” is embracing any sort of liberal beliefs.

      Of course, they are also begging the question of how “liberal” is defined. (Apparently it looks like they think “liberals” are those who are pro-choice and pro-gay-marriage.) The fact is that most university professors spend their time trying to discover problems and solutions to those problems. For many people, it is difficult to have that as one’s focus and not move away from traditional American conservatism.

      1. So Deacon, how would you define ‘liberal’? Wasn’t it just yesterday that you were bloviating about Obama and the UCC being liberal and not Muslim?

        1. His handle is “Deacon’s Son”, not “Deacon”. No, he wasn’t bloviating. He’s neither Bill O’Reilly nor Keith Olbermann.

          You’ll get a lot further with people if you get their names right. That shows respect, not arrogance.

        2. Semp, I was abbreviating is all, NOT being arrogant. Am I expected to spell out long named persons every time, like Doctor of Pulchritudinousness? And I believe he was bloviating, I feel that he bloviates quite often. But thanks for sharing.

        3. Why not use initials? “DS” works. Monikers of more than one word are usually referenced that way. Since you have a history of mocking people’s names, calling him “Deacon” seemed just another instance of impolite behavior.

          My advice? Get to know the culture here.

        4. Come on Dave, let’s not bloviate against the guy who wasn’t even guilty of your accusation. Suck it up and show a little humility.

        6. Dave (I don’t care what you want to call me but I am not now and never have been and never hope to be an IFB deacon):

          When I call someone “liberal” I am not using the term as an insult. I myself am quite liberal. So is President Obama. So is the UCC, which is a church that prides itself on broadcasting its liberalness as much as the IFB prides itself on broadcasting its conservatism. And while some comments in response to me yesterday have definitely softened my view of the UCC, I stand by my assertion that both the UCC and the IFB have taken fringe positions vis-a-vis mainstream Christianity. I think both movements take pride in being avant garde and anachronistic, respectively. I don’t think either would find my description particularly insulting. And the President himself admits that it was his inclusive political beliefs that first drew him to the UCC.

        7. Also, Dave, for what it’s worth, if you don’t like what I say, that’s fine with me. Criticize all you like. But if you think that I say is worthless “bloviating” as you call it, then just skip over it and don’t read it. Why waste your time or mine?

        8. I’ll let the UCC speak for itself:

          http://www.ucc.org/ucnews/oct04/who-are-you-calling-liberal.html

          In a nutshell, for those who don’t want to read, the article essentially explores the conundrum of a majority of UCC members describing themselves as “conservative” while holding to a number of “liberal” opinions and beliefs. Key quote from a UCC professor: “People don’t want to identify themselves with a word that has negative baggage associated with it, even though they may believe those things.”

        9. blo·vi·ate /ˈblōvēˌāt/
          verb informal

          gerund or present participle: bloviating

          1. talk at length, esp. in an inflated or empty way.

          Yes, I had to look it up! 😕

        12. In Deacon’s Son’s defense, he wasn’t bloviating. He was commenting. I didn’t agree with all of his comments, but I did think they were well-reasoned and civil. That’s quite different from “bloviating.”

  4. The ad, I mean article, ok, it was an ad, ends with “Haven’t you taught your children that many things, including our walk with Christ, are more important than money?” If money is so not-important, then lower the price of your college.

    Also, right after it gets done scaring the parent, there are two large “apply now” and “request more info” buttons.

    I almost couldn’t get past the story of the dad and daughter working through the budget right before she heads out to the youth group activity.

    1. Interesting too that the fundy church teaches absolute submission to paternal authority . . . unless, of course, daddy says you need to go to a good, secular college.

        1. Pastoral Authority: The Ultimate Earthly authority known to those who practice single-ruler Church Administration. Pastoral Authority regularly eclipses Biblical authority and has been known to be used to “set heaven straight” on topics which challenge that authority as well.

  5. As much as I love Maranatha, the article was definitely written to score points with the fan base. MBBC has to contend with Northland, Faith, BJU, Pensecola, West Coast, etc. for students as fundamentalists make up the majority of the student pool. If a college can change for the better (and I believe MBBC has the potential to do that) they will need to attract students outside of the usual demographic as there will probably be backlash/separation/hostility from a lot in the old fan base. 🙁

    1. Yeah. I’m guessing their relative moderation compared to the other fundy schools may eat into the other side of their market a little, so they have to throw out some red meat.

    2. I’ve spoken to a guy who went to Pensacola Christian College. Not a good place if you’re looking for someone to be decently socialized. No holding hands with girls (most likely not with boys either, but I didn’t ask that at the time). Lights out at 9 o’clock. Yes, 9 pm bedtime mandated by a college. Even worse, if it was the night before an exam and you were caught up after lights out studying, they’d alert your teacher and you’d fail that exam.

      That is not a place you go to in order to prepare for the real world.

        1. 11 was lights out and way too late for me, I am a morning person and staying up till 11:00 was torture. Young adults should be allowed to go to bed when they want to, not at some arbitrary time.

        2. I’m with mum2hba. I worked early in the morning; what really pissed me off was having to stay up for mandatory prayer group at half past 10. Because, you know, we are all uniform, freshly-scrubbed skin-jobs that keep the same schedule.

      2. I believe they still have the boy-boy handholding loophole in the rules at PCC anyway, although they’d use homophobic rules to expel you not just campus or “social” you for that.

        1. PS, studying after lights out during finals is likely to result in expulsion not just a failing grade.

    3. Certainly over the years MBBC has been seen as more moderate than those schools, and has probably had their base eroded because of it. KJV only churches have long eschewed Maranatha because of their soft stance on the issue.

      The problem is that like Northland, they can’t really appeal to the broader evangelical student market unless they jettison a bunch of stuff that will cause a Northland-esqe meltdown in northern fundy circles (I separate them from southern baptist IFB for a reason) where separation (mostly secondary) is still a distinctive.

      Its a shame to see that article from a school that does have its share of positives for a fundy u. Regional accreditation, demonstrably more rigorous academic standards than their peers, less focus on externals, etc. This is just cherry picked stats ignoring the reality that a high percentage of kids who would call themselves “born again” at the age of 17 will not 4-5 years later regardless of their choice of college. So many of my FU cohorts are now not living in a way that would be described as “Christian” by MBBC and its apologists.

      Another factor in this decision for me is that I would rather my children attend a local state university and live with me, continue in the company of the friends and mentors at our church that are already having a great impact on their lives, then to send them to a Christian college somewhere outside the influence of people who know and love them intimately. This article sets up a false dichotomy for many kids – they don’t have to choose one or the other as THE critical decision in their life to guarantee success.

      Another factor would be that kids who have been kept inside the bubble of fundy christian school their entire K-12 experience might be the targets of this article, and for them it makes more sense. My kids already are in an environment every day where they have to evaluate what is said and done around them because it contains things that are clearly wrong to them. Kids who have not developed this ability to discern will be in trouble at FU (like my wife and I were in many ways) because we go in assuming people are “like us” and that is just so far from the reality of Christian schools in general that it is far more dangerous.

      This article is unfortunate

      1. MBBC first “moderated” by removing some of the positions their base really didn’t believe in anyway. An extreme view of using only the KJV and the local church only interpretation of the use of the word “church” in the Bible. They had taught that it was never correct to use the term the “universal church.”

        Under the second president the KJV issue became a non-issue.

        In my senior year, with the new president, Weniger, the women were now allowed to wear pants in the dorm. Oh my, what an abomination! Someone asked me what I thought about it and I said, “Well, I don’t see them in the dorm anyway.” Of course in one of those secular universities maybe I would have. Same year the women’s softball team starting wearing pants. I think that it was an abomination to see the young ladies play sports in those awful looking culottes.

        MBBC’s base in extremely conservative, but not “nutso.” Still, they’ve lost some of the constituency to the left of them and to the right of them. Having a few years “behind your belt” in fundamentalism, can really paint you in a corner, of you want to change, just ask Northland.

        This article really reiterates the views of the founder, Dr. Cedarholm. He seemed to think that all “Christian young people” should go into the Lord’s work full time. He used to, in his sales pitch to churches, tell churches that 99% plus of the graduates are in the Lord’s work full time. He never changed that percentage, even after it was evident that it could no longer be true, if it ever was.

        MBBC has made some changes for the good and I think their version of fundamentalism is easier to live under than others. Perhaps, some of that has to do with the small family atmosphere, but don’t expect too much, although their latest campaign ad say, “MBBC is more than you expect.”

  6. Nice try at alliteration, Darrell, but I’ll have to give you just a B. You should have alliterated not just the first part of each word, but the second part as well.

    2. Ok, this was funny.

      Although I detect a hint of bitterness that strong language isn’t employed more frequently. 😉

  8. We took our son to Murray State University this past fall. Move in was a breeze. Students and faculty were there to help out. Our son joined Christ’s Ambassadors early on, and has happily attended meetings on campus in the commons area. While not promoting religion, Murray has made it clear that Christian groups are welcome to be there. I couldn’t be happier with his choice of university. While I loved having him home, I realize that he is an adult, and I know I never intended to “mother” him forever…I will always proudly be his mother. It’s been very different from what I would have imagined 10 years ago. I do believe that there are some excellent Christian Universities out there. In a few years, we will see what our younger son chooses.

    1. The claim that public colleges are hostile to religion and to religious students is, in my experience, false.

      1. Yep. At our local public college (and also the high schools) Christian groups are welcomed and given the same freedom any other groups have.

      2. As a current attendee of a secular public university, I would thoroughly agree. We have multiple Bible studies and other Christian groups on campus, the Gideons occasionally give out free New Testaments, and several churches have tables at the various events where area businesses can advertise. While the school is in no way religious, it certainly is not anti-religion.

      3. Depends on how you define “hostile to religion.” For fundies, anything other than straight up brain-washing, mind-numbing, Stockholm-syndrome-inducing indoctrination is “hostility to religion.” And, one should add, that for them, “religion” includes the full panoply of their religious, social, and political beliefs.

        Thus, for example, when I sat in my “secular” law school property class and my professor asked us to think critically about why we have the concept of property in the first place, my fellow students and I simply saw this as an interesting and worthwhile intellectual exercise. But, a fundy would have seen our innocuous class discussion as a liberal, communist attack on their cherished materialistic prosperity gospel beliefs.

        1. They asked you to think critically? what were they satan worshippers? 👿 You cant think critical and be at MBBC [sarcasm off]

        2. It always kind of shocked me that I would still find myself feeling surprised when I would discover that one of my law professors was a Christian and/or conservative. The old fundy bias that all professors are liberals had a strong grip on me, even after I reached the point where I didn’t care if they WERE all liberal hippies. (And, to be fair, many of them were.) Interestingly, because I attended law school in a “conservative” state, many of the law professors made some assumptions about us students too, namely, that we were a bunch of back-woods tea party gun toting KKK-sympathizing red necks. (And, again to be fair, many of my fellow students were.)

        3. Yeah, by that standard, my alma mater would be “hostile to religion.” They had officially recognized student organizations for most flavors of Christianity and most other major religions as well. That alone makes them “hostile to religion,” because they aren’t hostile to every religion except IFBaptist. Not to mention that they have groups for atheists, a group for LGBTQ students, etc. Now we’re really into Heathen Devil Pagan territory! 😈

      4. I think it varies by school and by instructor. But public universities are ultimately accountable to the taxpayers and will not be overwhelmingly hostile to Christianity unless the residents of the jurisdiction are.

        But a lot depends on what you think “Christianity” is. If you take a very narrow, Fundamentalist view, then you’ve placed yourself outside the mainstream and can expect to encounter differences of opinion.

    2. Heeeeey! I’m an older, married (former Fundy U grad) student who lives in Murray and attends Murray State. Good for your son! I hope he is loving Murray, and if you need anything, we ought to keep in touch.

      1. Thank you! I would love to meet you. We haven’t been down much because he’s already been home twice. There are a lot of great folks in Murray! We even had a professor introduce herself to our younger son, and offer to help J get settled. Murray seems like a great place to live. He’s home for fall break and has cleaned the den and mowed the lawn. It’s amazing he hasn’t tried to burn our Bibles or anything. I guess we’ll have to wait and see with Halloween coming up and all… 😉

        1. Haha….I doubt that is coming. Have you registered on the SFL forum? If so, I’ll send you a PM on there with my contact info. My username is the same on the forum.

    3. Our daughter, a commuter student at USC-Upstate (one of BJU’s competitors–ha!), was reading this over my shoulder. She commented that there are ads for CRU (new name of Campus Crusade) everywhere. Definitely not hostile to religion!

      1. By “BJU competitor” I mean a university local to our region. Like Clemson and Furman and Presbyterian College and Wofford and Converse, etc. You get the idea.

  9. Propaganda comes in all flavors but it’s at its worst when it comes to hawking for a cult.

    As the economy tightens these Institutions of Indoctrination will raise the level of guilt inducement and fear mongering. They are fighting for their lives and their financial well-being in the name of religion using Jesus, Scripture, the Church and “Christian College” as props and marketing tools. They use “Old Tyme, Fundamental, 1611 King James, sin hating, America loving, toe stomping, devil fighting, spiritual Moralism” to market their brand of Religious Protectionism.
    These pseudo-intellectual institutions are advertised to an already fearful and culturally separated following as the last bastions against all known evils of the secular world. They present themselves as Utopian “Pious Safe Zones” in a wicked terrible world.

    *sigh*

    As these now are so once I was.
    Embracing the error that if only I can keep my children from being exposed to ______________ then they will be saved…. No! Only God can save, and try as I did it was not my efforts nor my strength that insulated my children from evil, but it was and is the Grace of God alone that has drawn them and kept them. If God’s grace isn’t enough then sheltering them in an insular cult institution certainly will keep them from the evil this would is filled with.

    Once again we see the fundamentalists making evil and sin something external rather than something that resides in the heart of us all. And yet, pious perfection is presented as something that can be achieved through one’s own efforts.

    1. Yes, “propaganda comes in all flavors” and remember. *all* advertising is derived from two principles; ‘Fear of Loss’ and ‘Desire for Gain’. The ad for this college exploits the former. Notably, even the ‘benefits’ of Christian education and environment are approached obliquely by emphasizing how tragic it would be to miss out on them…

      1. So they had two choices as far as advertising were to go: they could appeal to the fear of loss, or the desire for gain.

        Secular universities appeal to the desire for gain. Going there will give you a good education. There will be great facilities, brilliant minds to learn from, rigorous programs, and a great future career.

        This college chose ‘fear of loss’. Not only fear of loss, but fear of the loss of your children’s salvation. Fear that they could burn in hell for all eternity because you sent them to the wrong university. This isn’t just majorly unethical, but the fact that they chose this approach rather than the appeal to gain shows that they don’t HAVE anything of worth to offer.

        1. The underlying argument, that a college is capable of ensuring someone’s salvation (or conversely, of damning that person to hell) strikes me as inherently blasphemous. No, colleges aren’t in charge of that. God is.

        2. I’ve never heard a fundy preach that you can lose your salvation, and it always surprises me when I see someone say that here.

          The loss that I’ve seen peddled is that god won’t ever use your young person unless Fundy U is involved. At Fundy U a young person will find a mate and then breed, thereby bringing more minions into the fundy kingdom. Just think how awful the world will be if a young fundy person goes to State U and gets an accredited degree and moves away and has a life away from Mommy, Daddy, and MOG.

        3. I don’t know semp, in my experience, fundy MOgs preach “eternal security” – once saved; always saved. But. They also preach endless law (which condemns) and do an end-around their eternal security bit by preaching that if you engage in such and such behaviors you probably aren’t saved anyway. So the overall feeling I got while under fundy preaching was that I was always in danger of God being angry with me and damning me, thus making the eternal security “official” position irrelevant.

    2. At my former Fundy church the college manipulation revolved around “Finding the perfect will of God for your life”. In other words, if you miss discerning His perfect will (Which almost always included going to WCBC), you are essentially settling for God’s 2nd or 3rd best – which might mean you end up in a van down by the river or something.

      🙄

      2. I was SOOO terrified of missing God’s will that I couldn’t chose which college to attend. I thought if I didn’t pick the right one, the rest of my life I’d be “second rate”, punished by God for missing His perfect will. At the same time, it made me mad that He wouldn’t show it to me clearly since I so badly wanted it!

        My dad asked me, “Do you want to do God’s will?” “Yes! Yes! Yes!” “Then just make a decision. Make a choice. If God wants to stop you, He will, but if your heart’s desire is to follow Him, He will guide you.” That really made me feel freedom instead of inertia and panic.

        (I’ve shared this before but repeated myself for people who are new.)

  10. Those studies they cite are not really germane to the discussion. Almost no one believes all the exact same things when they leave college as they did when they entered college, nor should we expect them to. I didn’t believe the exact same things when I left MBBC. The difference in the number of students who believe in certain things is much too small to prove that secular colleges are liberal indoctrination camps. An increase of only 8 percent of students who support abortion? Over the course of 3 years? That barely qualifies as a significant statistic.

    Maranatha enjoyed its status for years as a “sane” Fundy U, not as paranoid as Bob Jones, not as divisive or ostentatious as Pensacola, not as far out on the edge of the world as Northland. But now they are having to appeal to their Fundy base as Northland has “gone liberal” and they want to present themselves as a “mainstream Fundy” alternative.

  11. MBBC may want to research the porn stats cause my hubby heard on the radio that half of Christian men and that includes their pastors viewed porn the past week and this was a poll that was taken at a Promise Keepers meeting so it’s a cross section of America.

    I also think porn is more of a problem among the IFB.

    And “bullshit” sums up all the rules/legalism of the IFB.

    1. Porn is probably a huge problem in any sect that restricts sexuality. Denying that sexual attraction and desire exist will make it pop up, so to speak, somewhere else. It has to. We are all sexual beings to one degree or another. Separate stairways and beaches won’t change that no matter how much fundy kings wish it.

      1. Porn use is ubiquitous among men as a class and nearly so among women.

        An anonymous survey of students at Southern (Baptist) Seminary in Louisville (Mohler’s joint) indicated that something like 30% of students had viewed Internet porn in the last six months and about 12% viewed it at weekly.

        These are presumably future Southern Baptist pastors.

  12. I live right here on IFB Island, graduated from MBBC and had two boys severly harmed by abuse, physically, sexually and emotionally while minors in the MBBC System here. Hmmmmmmm…Therefore, I think MBBC should offer a class in how to make a make a “Cover Uplet” with a major at MBBC on “Presidental Sex Scandels” including What to do as MBBC President “Meeting Your Needs at Massage Therapist”, “How to Hide asnd Silence a Rape Victim’s Stoty From Your Favorite IFB Pastor’s Church”, “How to NOT Report Teachers Who Have Sex With a Minor Student,” Helping Aex Abuser of Minors Continue to Teach in other Schools”. Oh… and a most important class that should be required for all would be :Watching Out for the Government Wolfs” including a Home EC class on “Sewing Lambs Skins for your Own IFB Wolfs”.

      1. Bitter? You betcha! And Nancy has every right to be. Men she entrusted with the care & education of her sons damaged them. IIRC, one of her sons was raped by a Christian school administrator.

        I’m pretty sure Jesus is bitter that monsters like those men continue to claim they are doing His will. 👿 .

      3. The Show, when someone shares that their children were sexually abused, how dare you respond with mockery? That’s absolutely disgusting.

      4. I sincerely hope the assclown who uses the screen name The Show never ever has any children. The fact that you would think for even a minute that mocking the rape of minors is something to be shared on a public forum is disgusting. The Taliban is calling. They want their idiot back.

        1. If you have been abused by an religious group, then good therapy would be to avoid forums like this…

          Sorry if I was to offensive. Kids being hurt is not funny.

          Oh, and Doc Proc… Buy a razor… So when you meet The Show you can shave a spot on me tush to kiss! Probably got your doctrate from TTU. LOL

        2. The Show:

          Never, EVER presume to tell an abuse victim how to heal. If they find comfort in relationship with others who were also abused, then that’s none of your damn business.

          There are a lot of us here, because the IFB is rife with abuse, and the pastors do their best to cover it up.

          I’m a rape victim, and I’ll damn well be as bitter as I want about it.

      5. The Show: You just crossed the line. I KNOW Nancy’s story, and the story of her sons. If you think sexual abuse is okay, or funny, or that Mama ought to suck it up and let her kids be abused as long as a Man of gid is doing it, then you are a special level of sick. Get therapy NOW. I don’t care if you are an ex-Fundamentalist (which I don’t believe for a minute), A Fundy pretending to be an ex-Fundy, or a garden-variety asshole. Get help because you need it… that is, if you’re not already too far gone.

  13. As someone who spent all of my years of Education in Christian environments (north valley baptist school, trinity baptist college, golden gate baptist theological seminary) I have found two things to be true: 1) people do what they want to do. Ultimately we become who we want to become. The idea that secular education will turn you into a heathen or the that christian education will turn you into a saint goes against not only common sense but also Biblical sense. 2) Bad people and influences are everywhere. There is no utopian place where sin is not present and evil does not exist. Really the only reason to go to a college is to get an education. There are plenty of good christian places to get that education (Corban, Cedarville, BIOLA, Cal Baptist, etc…) if that’s your cup of tea but there is no need to BS parents with fear.

    1. “A tavern cannot corrupt a good man, and a synagogue cannot reform a bad one,” says the Yiddish proverb.

      2. “A fool falls on his back and bruises his nose.”

        So goes the good man when he steps out of the tavern!

    2. “It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.”

      (Matthew 15:11, ESV)

      I try to remember this any time I feel like blaming X, Y, or Z for my failures.

  14. If you teach your children truths and proofs, you shouldn’t have to worry about them loosing their faith wherever they go. The problem with Fundamentalism is that it teaches blind obedience to the leadership with no room for dissension. The separatist/elitist attitude compounds the problems. Most of the kids going to Fundy U have never had friends outside the church or Fundy School. Most of them haven’t known people with different political or social views, and have never had to explain a belief with no logical purpose.

    As I have stated before, one of the best things to happen to me was to be asked to explain an indefensible “conviction” by a co-worker. It caused me to actually think about my beliefs, something Fundy High, church, or the first Fundy U I attended failed to do. That was before my successful trip to a second Fundy U. While I attended, I chose to follow their rules, even though I did not believe they made me more spiritual. I almost went to a closer technical college, but wanted the Bible classes the local school did not have. While at Unusual U, I lost my KJV only belief and my wife started wearing pants. For me it as good, but I saw plenty of Kool-aid being drunk.

    In the last few years, two of my daughters went to Northland (their choice) and experienced the “liberal drift” there. The funny thing about the slide–it more closely reflects our home beliefs and attitudes now than it did when they got there. Our son joined the army and immediately found a church he enjoyed and began participating in the services playing guitar.

    The fact the girls went to Northland is not the reason they are active in churches where they live. I believe the reason is because we did our best not to have arbitrary “holy” rules, but loose guidelines open to discussion. I realized early on that some things, like music, boil down to taste and personal preference. I don’t care for some of the Christian pop music they like, and they don’t care for my 80’s Christian folk music. And we still get along just fine. My wife and I had a goal of teaching biblical concepts, not personal preference as truth. Fundies don’t do that, and lose their kids not because they don’t have any truth, but do not know how to differentiate the truth from the fiction that is current IFB life.

    I know this has been a bit long, but it kind of hit a nerve with me. I’ve been trying to convince people that Christianity isn’t a one size fits all way of life for years. That the fundamental doctrines of Scripture are immutable. But most of Fundamentalism has nothing to do with true doctrine.

      1. I made my share of mistakes, also. I tried to own up to them, though you’d have to ask the kids how successful I really was.

        But thanks for the kind words.

        1. Just the fact that you had rules which were allowed to be discussed, and were not inflexible, is something I personally did not experience. It doesn’t seem like you instilled so much fear into your children of having a different opinion that they could never know their own minds. My father never could tolerate or listen to an opinion different than his own “biblical” one, as it were.

  15. Well said, Darrell. How about let’s teach kids/teenagers to deal with life from the get-go rather than hiding them from it and turning them into dysfunctional adults.

  16. I dropped a line to MBBC and let me them know how attending a non accredited Bible college with a sexual predator as its leader didn’t lead me to me to greater faith. At least a secular university doesn’t pretend to be something that it isn’t and provides you with a means to make a living for your family (I wonder how long before fundamentalists realize that they are impoverishing their young men by sending them to Bible college and weakening their movement financially)?

    1. That does not bother them.

      An interesting feature of both Jewish and Islamic fundamentalism is that the men consider it their “work” to study the holy scriptures and act all righteous in the hopes of rising to spiritual positions where they can issue edicts. Their wives are supposed to do the real work, make money, provide for the family and accept their lower status.

      Men who actually choose to work to earn a living are definitely lower class than the scholars, and are expected to contribute heavily to the scholars’ support.

      Christian fundamentalism is headed in that same direction. In some ways it is already there.

      1. I don’t think Fundamentalism values scholarship; I think it values preaching. Most Fundamentalist preachers (with a few exceptions) I’ve encountered are profoundly ignorant. They may have a good deal of the Bible memorized, but they haven’t made much effort to find out what it really means instead of just proof-texting their own hobby horses.
        And their lack of knowledge about the rest of the universe is shocking, as illustrated by the fellow we saw commenting on politics in Friday’s featured video.

    3. Not sure that you have all of your facts straight.
      I don’t know of any reason to call the present president a sexual predator. Nothing in a previous post refers to Marty Marriott, although I believe the previous poster feels, he did not adequately respond to information given to him about incidents that occurred long before his tenure, but she can (and has) spoken for herself.

      MBBC is regionally accredited.

      All this info is not an attempt to defend the school. Just serves to get a few facts straight, as I understand them.

      The MBBC article is the same old fear tactics and general opinion/misinfo that has been floating around the IFB for years, although they may use more tact and polish than HAC. I have to some degree swallowed the Kool-Aide myself at times.

    1. Yeah, my first roommates who were both upper class-men used to joke about going out of state to purchase porn, and joke about clogging the shower drain up (you fill in the blanks). Pretty normal behavior for young men I suppose, but being at F-U didn’t change a thing.

      1. I didn’t technically go to a Fundy U school. However, I went to a Southern Baptist college with fundamentalist tendencies (although they never went full-blown fundy).

  18. Dear SFL Reader:

    Nowhere does Scripture use the word ‘Christian’ as an adjective. This article has a strong Manichean tendency. So do many churches and ‘Christian’ schools. State schools make no ‘Christian’ profession; when will ‘Christian’ schools admit their heretical inclination? Which is more honest? Which is less? What if the very premise of a ‘Christian’ college [or a ‘Christian’ haircut, a ‘Christian’ dress code, a ‘Christian’ business] states the problem before us? What if the very notion of the ‘Christianization’ of part of our culture is itself heretical? Are our churches addressing this? Are they aware of the problem?

    This article is premised on a singular lack of faith in the power of God to keep that which we have committed to him. Where is the perspective of the Canons of Dort which say that it is not the pitting the power of the world against the weakness of the flesh, but the pitting the weakness of the flesh against the power of God which is at issue? Which theology is better? Which better honours God’s pledge sealed by the baptism of our children? Where are churches acknowledging that youths depart because churches themselves failed to initiate youths into the walk of faith?

    Nowhere is the case for Christianity’s intolerance and intellectually bankruptcy made as eloquently as do Christian colleges themselves. Had Manaratha Baptist a valid case, would it not have made it? Some denominations maintain Campus Ministries programmes staffed by PhDs [earned] PLUS a full, theological education. They maintain regular, on campus office hours, host events, bring in engaging speakers who address cutting edge issues in our time, hold Sunday chapel services, and maintain an academically excellent witness to the college staff. What Christian Colleges do that?

    Many families and persons bear life-long scars inflicted by bad churches with horrid theology and corrupt leaders. Their faith life will always be a struggle owing to church/Christian College experiences that ought never to have happened. They have internalized legalism, blind devotion to dictatorial leaders, excessive discipline, social manipulation and spiritual intimidation. They will be a lifetime throwing off those things which some maintain are marks of faithfulness to Jesus Christ.

    Christian colleges have not escaped the seductive power of wealth. Few decisions are made without counting the fiscal cost. This is evident not only in the physical campus but in the quality of textbooks, teaching instruction, guest speakers invited and much more. Money influences who sits on the College Board, what ‘standards’ are followed at the school and [perhaps most evidently] in what they pay staff and teachers. The need of money became the context for paying someone to write a fundamentally dishonest article about why youths should attend a Christian College.

    Christian Socialist

      3. Re: The Show on bitterness

        Ithinks he doth protest “to” much.

        Pardon me, your rancor is Showing.

        There’s a certain dark kettle to which I believe you need an introduction.

      4. Dear The Show:

        So tackle the issues! If not, you grant that my case stands.

        Christian Socialist

        1. Christian Commie,

          ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

          ZZZZZZZZ

          ….What did you say?

          Your posts are more boring than a Phil Kidd cassette tape.

        2. I do love when nitwits demonstrate their inability to differentiate between a communist and a socialist.

      5. 2 For the Show:
        1. Waaaaah! Too (To) many words!!!
        2. Waaaaah! I don’t like this site!!!

        3 to get ready
        1. “You don’t have any friends…”
        2. “Nobody likes Youuuuuu…”
        3. “What would you do with a brain if you *had* one?”

        And 4 to Go…(back under your bridge, little Troll)

  19. A lot of fundamentalist schools truly have inferior complexes, and I suppose that they should. Their faculty often is way, way unqualified to teach the subjects that they teach. Just count the number of faculty who have actual, earned doctorates, not honorary, fake ones as opposed to the number of people who just have a BA or a BS degree. Practically none of the faculty belong to professional organizations, and often people have not kept up in the field and as a result, sometimes teach the wrong thing. I taught English at MBBC from 1981-86. The lady whose job I took taught students that Benjamin Franklin was a fine Christian man. Nothing could be farther from the truth, and in his private correspondence, he encouraged Thomas Paine in his views.

    I have problems with coed housing only in that roommates are often inconsiderate of one another when they entertain members of the opposite sex for hours on end, especially when students are grouped into apartment-like housing where four people need to set up ground rules. However, I find this better than the paranoid standards and petty rules that Christian colleges often employ. At Maranatha, the administration used to pull surprise room checks on students and would cut open footlockers with a bolt cutters. I corresponded with a former student, only to find that the letters were confiscated and ended on the desk of the Dean of Women.

    I have found very few faculty at secular universities that have an axe to grind for one view or another. Most are respectful of divergent views, and in every class, faculty encouraged civility in discussions where students had conflicting viewpoints.

    Concerning church attendance, I have met many former Maranatha students who drifted away from fundamentalism and church in general. Enforced church attendance fosters nothing. Students just clock in the time, and when they’re not being watched, they’ll do what comes natural to them. I know a few who have not darkened the door of a church since graduation. They were coerced into going to a Christian college, and their lapse from church was just put off by a few short years.

    What bothers me most abut fundamentalist colleges and Maranatha in general is that students are presented with a skewed and often propagandized interpretation of the facts rather than the facts themselves. While I was at Maranatha, I took a lot of what I heard with a grain of salt. Later, when I did my own solid research, I discovered a lot of documented information that flew in the face of what professors at Maranatha taught. Most of all, there is a lot of difference between cramming students with facts and actually teaching them how to think using those facts. Fundamentalist schools are afraid to let their students critically think, for if they did, they would discover that the students would be arriving at conclusions diametrically opposed to the Maranatha ideal.

    1. I don’t think non-co-ed dorms are much of an improvement. I lived in an all-male dorm at the University of Dallas and my roommate and his girlfriend had sex in our room, IN MY BED 😯

      Unless you are going to have prisons instead of dorms, like most fundy schools, where boys and girls aren’t allowed in each others rooms (or even buildings) in the first place, then I guarantee you, sex is gonna happen in the dorms sometimes.

      Interestingly, my wife, who graduated from BJU, recently ticked off the list of all the places people had sex ON BJU CAMPUS. It was quite an enlightening conversation. There is practically NO PLACE ON EARTH that you can prevent people from having sex. Even in North Korean prison camps, you hear stories about human rights violations against female prisoners who are impregnated by fellow male internees.

      Fundy Us are flat out lying when they tell parents “your kids won’t have sex here.”

      1. Under the grand piano in the practice shacks.
        In the Dining Common elevator.
        In cars.
        In on-campus faculty members homes.
        The bunks of the dorm rooms.
        The showers.
        Various rooms in the library.

        Basically, anywhere & everywhere! 😛

        1. A close friend of mine from a mainline denomination went to a Christian college for two years. It was an eye-opener, to say the least. Most of the other students were from very conservative Christian backgrounds and many were dying to “feel their oats.” She says it was there that she learned that Sex on the Beach is more than the name of a cocktail.

          She escaped to a state university (with a great sense of relief) after her sophomore year.

  20. I don’t know if I’ll express my opinion we’ll, but I’m going to try: if we parents have taught our kids that being a Christian is all about going to the “right” church, listening to the “right” music, wearing the “right” clothes, having the “right” haircut, reading the “right” Bible, and so on – what can we expect but for them to have no answers to the real questions of life? If we raise them in bubbles, what will they do when the bubbles burst?

    But if we raise them to know the grace of Christ and to think and reason – actually give them a foundation – we can let them go without fear.

    I say this, even though two of my children are not living in faith right now. Faith cannot be forced, and if going to a secular school makes you lose yours, you may not have have had “it” to begin with.

    1. I think it speaks better of your parenting that some of your children do NOT share your faith than if all of them DID. It shows that you taught your children to formulate their own beliefs and not just believe something because you told them to!! Hopefully some day your children will return to the Christian faith, but in the meantime, I bet you are learning a lot from them as they explore other ways of thinking.

      1. Yes, I am learning from them. One of the greatest gifts is to see yourself as others see you, which is what their lives has done. I no longer ask myself what we did wrong – I continue to ask God to bring them to Himself with His kindness.

        You may find it interesting that the one who walked away in college and retuurned came back as a Catholic, not a Baptist as she was raised.

        1. I don’t know the ages of your children, but it’s a very common pattern for Americans to move away from organized religion in their late teens to early twenties, and to return in their late twenties or early thirties– especially (but not only) when they start to have children of their own.

  21. The Humanities have a way of moderating and broadening one’s viewpoint. Your KJVO colleges don’t even bother to offer sociology, psychology, or anthropology. Places like Maranatha or BJU offer them, but anthropology is limited to cultural anthropology, and the humanities in general are not well represented or even represented at all on the common general education requirements. Additionally, science gen ed requirements are non-existant at KJVO colleges and really weak at the rest, unless you are taking a science-related degree.

    1. David,

      I’m sure that things have changed at Maranatha from the old Cedarholm days, but when Dave Hollowood taught Sociology, over 100 pages were cut out of the Sociology text so that it would be approved for the students to read.

      I remember how sections of Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales were cut out because they were deemed offensive. I loved how someone drew pantaloons over the naked pictures of the Sisteen chapel on the cover o Nortons Anthology of World Literature. When Maranatha discovered that bookstores could sell back used inventory, the workers were shocked when the bookbuyers wouldn’t accept books that had things marked out.

  22. MBBC has some how managed to scooooooooot by the scandals and keeep on standing. They had the last peseidents who left, Wineger, Jaspers and Phelp dismissed or left with sexual scandals on their tails. MBBC has cover so many crimes from the most extreeem to more minor offenses. MBBC is instrumental in keeping Watch Dogs like Marvin Munyon and Jullaine Appling as lobbiest and political leaders that stunt the State of Wi in their ability to get into these IFB schools and check on the safety of the minors or to look at potential crimes. MBBC is sliiiiiiiiiprier than snot on a door knob when it comes to sliping away on the cover of darkness in the night when it comes to imoralies and crimes that are never teported or coveredand overted under IFB created laws in the watchers government if they are suspected of a cover up. I do not understand how MBBC uas been able to do this ESCAPE ACT so well but I belive God will hold them accountable in the end.

    2. My parents know “Dr.” Marty Marriott, BA, BS, MA, MDiv, DD, from outside the MBBC sphere and I recently said that when MBBC offers you the presidency you should run like a scalded dog. That job is the kiss of deathly scandal!

  23. No… this is not a group of Christians. If it was, you’d all be thankful for such a God glorifying article.

    3. Are you saying that no one here on SFL is Christian? Really? Are you god that you can say that with absolute assurance? I gave up on the Christian god because of this attitude.

      Wow. I don’t know fundies come here. I really don’t.

        4. It just makes me sad to hear someone walk away from God, that’s all. It must have been something terrible that led you to it.

        5. On the human side, it was lack of love, grace, mercy, compassion, etc., coupled with demands for perfection. On the theological side, it was realizing that most of what I was taught was wrong. Then there was the personal side, which I’ll not discuss here.

          I’m not saying there isn’t a sky-based deity somewhere, I’m just saying I have no use for one.

    4. As a non-Christian, I would just like to tell you how shocked and speechless, SPEECHLESS MIND YOU, I am to have you try and group these Christians in with me. Hasn’t anybody ever told you that bearing false witness is a major sin?

      What’s next, you’re going to claim that not every Scotsman is a true Scotsman?

      1. Dear Psycho Gecko:

        Thank you so much for visiting us. You honor us by your presence here.

        Christian Socialist

    5. I praise God that my status with regard to his family does not depend on whether fundamentalist nutcases approve of me!

    7. Poe…
      How do I know?
      Because it was me.
      It brings me glee.
      Please don’t be mad,
      If you’ve been had.
      Get on with your life,
      Like the Pastor’s Wife.
      Please forgive my sinning,
      Even if you don’t, I go on grinning.
      Don’t hold it against me or keep a list,
      If you do this I’ll send you to Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist.

      Thank you and God bless,
      John is Awake

        1. Haha, yeah, when I did this, I went right back to work and had forgotten that I did it, then I was searching through this thread to see the new comments… and I saw people attacking this poor guy Greg!
          Hope you don’t mind I used your moniker.

  24. I clicked the link to the Marantha article – tl;dr. I’m running late for my weekend binge drinking session. Priorities.

  25. Disclaimer: This post is not related to Darrell’s analysis of the article so much as it is a general response to many of the other posts about MBBC.

    I agree that this article is probably born out of financial difficulties related to the falling numbers of students at all Fundy U’s in the last few years. I also agree that MBBC feels a need to identify more closely with traditional fundamentalism because of events at Northland. However, they’ve had regional accreditation for many years and in the last 5 years have grown tremendously in their ability to do honest self-analysis and process improvement. Most of the current faculty are appropriately qualified for their positions and no longer shy away from difficult topics. I don’t intend to encourage my kids to go to any Fundy U., but MBBC is a lot better than most of the other Fundy choices. I can’t speak for the old days, but I think they should get some credit for the improvements they’ve made and are making, recent article notwithstanding.

  26. The implication here is that an 18 year old adult is incapable of making choices and must not be given such choices; further, that it’s a parent’s job to ensure their child remains a child, basically a smaller clone of themselves, and never grows up.

    In any event, a joke!

    A Jewish boy comes home from his first semester at a secular college, after having been in yeshiva his whole life. His mother starts grilling him.

    “So, are you keeping kosher?”

    “Really, mother, do you think I’d bother trying to hold on to those antiquated dietary traditions when I go out with friends from many backgrounds? It would be hard to demand my friends only go to kosher restaurants.”

    “But you at least go to services every Friday, right?”

    “There are far too many demands on my time to do that, and too many things going on on Friday nights that are much more interesting.”

    “Well, you are only dating nice Jewish girls, I hope?”

    “Of course not! There’s so many interesting women at college, I’m not going to just pick from a tiny subset of them.”

    The mother sighs, and finally asks, “So tell me, Murray, are you still circumcised?”

    2. “Going to services.” Fundy colleges accord themselves high praise that their students attend church and chapel and other sorts of things. But I attended an evangelical school for two years that had required church/chapel attendance and I often wondered, how many would attend if they were given the choice? Interestingly, a friend of mine who was an atheist attended Calvin College in Michigan and told me that he was one of the few students who actually did attend non-mandatory chapel there. (He was struggling with issues of faith and hoped to find some answers in chapel. Instead, he told me all he got was liberal politics wrapped up in religious platitudes.)

      My point is: it doesn’t prove anything that Bible college students live more moral lives when the morality is forced. After all, students at West Point live pretty regulated lives too, but not because they are all committed Christians.

      1. I don’t think “moral” is even the right word for it. Morality is what people choose to do, not what they are forced to do (or forced not to do).

  27. My primary concern would be the simple ability to make a living in the world. What on earth would a 22 year old woman or man do with a multi-thousand dollar “degree” from an unaccredited school no one ever heard of. That’s some serious parental malpractice in my opinion.

    Also, Like you say, 18 year old people can go to Ole Miss, or they can get a job and an apartment. Either way the “world” they are exposed to will be exactly the same. At some point the person has to pick his or her own path in life. Better sooner with a real education than later with 4 years and thousands of dollars wasted.

  28. My parents’ mantra has simply become “Anything But College.” (I.e., real, accredited college.)

    Want to go to West Coast and get an unaccredited degree? Fine!

    Want to go work for Bill Gothard in his training centers? Fine!

    Want to “take some classes” from Moody Bible Institute correspondence school instead of enrolling there full time? Fine!

    Want to stay home to “work and save”? Fine!

    Want to join the military? Fine!

    Want to go to police or fire academy? Fine!

    Anything but college. And it’s hard for me to answer them on this issue because I did go to a regionally accredited (albeit conservative Catholic) school for undergrad followed by a state university law school and at some point along the way my wife and I did leave the IFB, become political liberals/libertarians, and generally throw off all the other “rules” imposed by our IFB upbringings. So, in once sense, we are living proof that higher education can lead to a rejection of religious fundamentalism. Of course, now I see that as a good thing and want the same for my siblings, but my parents point to me and say: “that is why we will support you in anything you want to do, anything but college.”

    1. I am already actively encouraging my middle school-aged & younger kids to attend a State school.

      Why? Because I want more for them than the blind following of rules & regulations. I want them to learn logic & critical thinking so they can have a thoughtful faith rather than something whitewashed onto the outside.

    3. If they’re allowed to join the military, encourage them to do that.The military will give them exposure to diversity and they can have the government pay for their (state) college too (although getting a degree on active duty is tough due to limited time available to take classes). I would definitely encourage it for the girls too. Enlisting in the Navy was one of the best decisions I ever made.

      – Navy veteran of 7 years active duty and 3 years and counting Reserves

    1. You didn’t lose friends. You just found out who wasn’t really your friend. That’s what we discovered when we left Fundystan.

  30. Another unintended consequence of fundy u’s smothering approach is that some people get out of there and feel like they have to spend years of their lives just catching their breath.

    Our church has a beautiful pipe organ and occasionally offers lovely short concerts on Sunday afternoons. My wife recently confessed to me that she doesn’t always like to attend those concerts because they remind her too much of Bob Jones “vespers” which she was forced to attend ad nauseum during her time at BJU. Just an example of Bob Jones ruining something for my wife that isn’t a matter of faith, but is still something wonderful that has been twisted for her into something with negative associations.

    1. Nice, DS. After 19 yrs I had almost completely left Vespers behind. As the prophetess Celine foretold, “It’s all coming back to me now.”

    2. One thousand times yes. After being at Fundy U for a few years, never being allowed to go off campus by myself and be normal, I got married and realized intoxicating freedom. I could drive to the store by myself, and, if I wanted, I could even stop at the library on the way there without breaking a pass rule! Terrific fun. And I realized recently, and this may be weird for some people to grasp, that I didn’t want to have children because having a baby would take away the freedom and spontaneity that I was finally able to have. It would also take away the quiet that I enjoyed after years of dorm life and bus rides with scads of girls all around me. Something that should have been exciting and looked forward to was dreaded and avoided. The culture at Fundy U can indeed spoil even good things for people.

  31. When I went off to a secular university (a long time ago) my fundy church was sure that I would fry my brain. I loved them, but my parents weren’t funding Bible college for me. I found a great church, plugged into a campus Bible study, and graduated ready to become a missionary (work which I did for 15 years). Missionary prep led me to two good Bible colleges (not a fundy ones, by the way). Of the 15 or so kids in the high school group, I believe I am the only one that ever engaged in “full time” service (I consider my Christian walk “full time” service). Many of the kids did drop out and not follow the Lord, including a couple who introduced me to the church. It’s not the church or the school as much as it is a heart that really wants to follow Jesus that determines where you will end up spiritually. I am so glad I got my degree from an accredited institution. When health reasons didnt’ allow any more missionary work, I was still employable. I can’t say that for some of my other colleagues who could no longer work overseas.

  32. Notice Maranatha conveniently put links for “Apply Now” and “Request Info” at the conclusion of the article…

  33. I graduated from Fundy U, then I graduated from a real college. After everything I had been told I was expecting routine goat sacrifices and Satanic summoning before class began. Instead, I was challenged to think and to my shock and amazement, many of my professors were either Christians or political conservatives. I went to a college in an area that is not known for having many of either.

    I was told that going to secular college would ruin my faith. I don’t mean to brag on myself but my faith is stronger for having gone. In addition, I don’t have to compete with high-school students and illegal immigrants for employment like I did with my Fundy U diploma. Next stop: Grad School!

      1. At least they would be more real, not having to toe the line so tightly set by the admin. They would be free to really express their opinions, even criticizing college admin if necessary. Some of these schools encourage students to rat each other out, which does not create the level of trust necessary to form good relationships.

    2. So what if a female had a brilliant aptitude for science? Who wanted to help cure terrible diseases? Who didn’t want to marry? There’s a reason why people go get a degree – not just read books at the library. This article essentially tells females to shut up and color.

      The Catholics I’m closest with are my dad and step mom. My step mom is a college literature professor. She’s brilliant. Also, she didn’t marry my dad till later in life. What would she have done with herself for the first fifteen years out of high school? Sat at home and knitted?

      1. I couldn’t finish reading that article because it was so upsetting. To think that women are all the same and that we all want to make babies and wipe noses and bottoms all day is asinine. It’s also an insult to god, but I fear that’s too deep a theological concept for the author to grasp.

    3. If you want to read more about female oppression in the name of God (and if your blood pressure can take it), check out the “Quiverfull” movement. Then read about resistance at the blog “No Longer Quivering.”

  35. “Henderson’s study of 16,000 students attending 133 different secular colleges showed that 52 percent of those students had left Christianity behind by graduation.”

    Funny, I was just the opposite. I had left Christianity behind just before attending the secular college. I came back to Christianity again just before graduation. I know that doesn’t fit with their “statistics”, but then again I never seem to fit anyone’s pet theories about anything.

    1. Welcome to the club! While I didn’t share your college/religion experience, I know what it feels like to not fit the Religious Reich’s pet theories on various matters. 😉

    4. I agree up to a point. But if a troll attacks someone personally (or mocks someone in a cruel way), I wouldn’t want his jibe to be the last word. Many people who come here are hurting, and they might feel devastated by a pointedly personal insult, so sometimes I think we do need to stick up for someone, even if it means that we’re just amusing a troll when we do so.

    6. I agree: Ignore the troll and he’ll get bored and go away. The typical troll offers nothing by way of edification.

      Of course, we all should exercise care in this regard.

      B.R.O.

    2. I must beg to differ on a technicality; it appears to be not just one, but possibly three or four loads of bullshit.

  38. It is really not that easy to go completely buckwild at PCC or BJU. It’s possible, yes, but that 10 PM curfew and large number of snitches really puts a damper on things.

    Yeah, you can sign out to visit a family member, maybe prop a door open, but there’s no comparison to state school.

    2. I don’t really think it’s easy to go buckwild at BJU or PCC relative to a secular or public university.

      The problem as I see it that too many Christians think that being a hellraiser is really, really bad; while being a nasty, manipulative, self-righteous person is a trivial shortcoming.

  40. Apropos to nothing, I’m just wondering what kind of Fundy church you went to that actually encouraged joining the military??!?! That was a HUGE no-no at mine; until the pastor’s son joined up and then it was all fine, of course.

    1. My last stint in Fundystan the MOG was fond of the military (though he never served). MOG’s wife (the co-MOG?) wanted her kids to be officers if they joined; obviously being in the god business she wanted her kids to be preachers, missionaries, married to preachers, etc. One of her kids looked into joining the military as an occifer, but the toilet paper he got from PCC made that not an option. It’s too bad, because he is a smart guy and would have made a good O.

    2. The military was always the best option for males from our church who were not going to Fundy U. Of course, we were right next to a large base and most of our best workers and tithers were military people, so that may have had something to do with it. The one girl who went into the military after high school was quietly suffered, probably because of her father’s standing in the church.

  41. -in response to the linked article-
    Not sure if this was mentioned as there were a lot of comments and I didn’t have time to read them all…but passing over the glaring misinformation and poor use of statistics to push this propaganda and beyond the lack of discernment in choosing complete separation from the world there is another pressing problem.
    The cost. That statement in bold of “lower price tag, higher cost”. What about good stewardship? not counting for tomorrow what is not promised? not being enslaved to debt? Going and pursuing a degree that will cost more than that career can provide for you in a few years is incredibly foolish. Debt is severely counseled against in Scripture but (sarcastic voice)obviously it is better than potential “soul corruption” that will inevitably happen while in an environment that is shockingly like real world living that will have to be faced anyway!
    Many programs in Christian Universities are not employable in a secular settings, often have missing credits or pre-reqs for jobs and even then the job market is very tight. New graduates have no guarantee they will be hired for what they studied. They need to consider in this article that they are strongly pushing people from an emotionally vulnerable time to choose enslavement to loans at a point where freedom for service should be rapidly growing.
    I fortunately was called to a career that saved me from this disaster but many of my friends are in that situation where their life calling and ministry is limited by the amount of debt they owe after a Christian college education.

    Of course this issue is secondary to many others but I felt they were adequately covered by other comments and wanted to make sure this was not overlooked.
    Thanks so much for sharing and not just standing by.

    1. Dear BLM RN:

      I mentioned staff salaries because tenured professors at ‘Christian’ Colleges are often seriously underpaid compared to their [so-called] ‘secular’ counterparts. I’m not ‘in the know’ as to what compensation packages the school in question offers teaching staff. But I would find it highly duplicitous should schools call upon church communities to pay more while at the same time requiring tenured teachers to accept less.

      Are ‘Christian’ institutions exempt from the call to trust God?

      Christian Socialist

      1. I know! The buybull kawlij can make its own spinoff company to make K4-12 curriculum and sell it. The kawlij students can work in the printing/warehouse/”customer service” departments for next to nothing and the so-called company can be a huge donor to the kawlij. Also, the curriculum will be a feeder of students to the kawlij, and the kawlij grads can work at schools that use this curriculum.

        I wonder why no one’s thought of that!

  42. Whenever I see “studies” like this I’m always a little leery. Apparently Maranatha wasn’t. In the article they claim…

    “Henderson’s study of 16,000 students attending 133 different secular colleges showed that 52 percent of those students had left Christianity behind by graduation.”

    That one sentence has three errors…

    1. The 52% is not from Henderson’s study. Henderson was quoting from a study done in 1994.

    2. The 52% are those who no 1) longer identify as being “born again” or 2) who had not attended services in the last year. These are two separate questions that cannot be added together since they would be double-counting some respondents.

    3. The list of 133 colleges show they are mostly religious, not secular. Only 13 of 133 are “state” schools.

    The “study” is really a dissertation for Henderson’s doctorate, not a true study from a reputable organization. Maranatha should be ashamed of that article.

    http://www.christianconsulting.net/statistics/Dissertation.pdf

  43. I made it through 1.5 sections of the turd. Just too much fictional anecdote as evidence, and lack of any effort to accomplish anything but scare the reader off any alternative.

  44. Wow, I feel a sense of release, this article is helping me to come out of the closet about my secular college experience.

    For years I have been blaming me not finishing secular college on a financial mess my mom got me into while I was in college. Though it was a mess, I could have continued, instead I used it as an excuse to follow the counseling of my MoG and other good Fundies in the church.

    You see, I was majoring in electrical and computer engineering, and because both of those are major contributors to the explosive growth of the online porn industry, I was heavily discouraged from continuing and advised to finish off with an “educational” degree at a FundyU 2 states away.

    I was halfway through my junior year when I dropped out. At that point all that lay ahead of me were engineering classes where I was going to do some cool stuff. All of the classes that would have turned me into a Satan worshiper 😈 were behind me.

    Still I followed the “counsel of the godly” and dropped out. 🙄

    But today, were doing fine, I have a job that would normally require a degree, and the fundies are no longer getting my tithe. :mrgreen:

  45. There’s one grain of truth in the bunkum: If you raise your children in a culture where everybody watches them like hawks and comes down like a ton of bricks on every deviation from your standards, and they go off to someplace where people are expected to control themselves instead, then they may go off the rails.

    Or you could attempt to raise children to do things because they’re the right thing, not because they will be declared unclean sinners by the right-thinking folks of the tribe if they fail to perform.

  46. Mr. Darrell, thank you for posting this. I wished I’d read something akin to your post, before I went to PCC and lost 4 years (and other important things)of my life.

  47. A poorly written narrative about a man and his daughter who never have and never will exist. I stopped reading after they tried saying that state colleges are less expensive. What a joke – a full year at my Fundy U was the cost of one semester at our state university. Please people, wake up – stop trying to scare people into conforming to your agenda – which you will eventually wind up doubting and questioning yourself….

  48. How many liberal kids in secular colleges have to slant their papers conservative to get a good grade?

    There are alot of relatively intelligent folks sticking their heads in the sand on this one!

    1. Good point. I remember getting a bad grade because I defended Percy Shelley as a great writer in lit class. I didn’t get a single mark for grammar, punctuation, or logic errors. But somehow I got a C on the paper. I asked the teacher about it and he responded that Shelley was a godless heathen, and that I should have taken that into account before praising him.

  49. I think there is a place for Christian Universities where the mind set of the professors is Christian because all real knowledge and wisdom comes from God. I also agree that the legalism and control freakism of Fundy U’s is destructive to young people, Maranatha has been regionally accredited for almost 20 years, so they are moving in the right direction, but they have a long way to go, and I would not send my kids there, even though I got a fairly good education there. The rules and control freakism just robs the life out of you.

    1. ROFL!!!!!!!

      We all know there is absolutely no real knowledge at any non-Christian school anywhere. I guess I’ll have to stop going to my doctor, because she hasn’t any real knowledge.

      You were joking, right?

  50. This mindset was pounded into us at Fundy HS. If we didn’t go to a Christian college we would certainly fail as Christians and how else could we find the mysterious “will of God?”. I’m so thankful I had no desire to go to PCC or BJU and I’m very angry that we weren’t given ample opportunities to explore good secular schools so we could get good secular jobs when we graduated. Maybe that was the point, they didn’t want people to have secular jobs. I suppose everyone had to get poorly paid jobs in the ministry. The lack of guidance counselors contributed to the confusion of what school is REALLY right for me. By default a lot of kids ended up at Fundy U. I was fortunate and really didn’t know what I wanted to do, went to a community college 1st and then transferred to a 4 year secular school. Other people weren’t so lucky. They spent 4 years at Fundy U, were told that their degree is accepted almost everywhere, only to find that this isnt true. This especially isn’t true if you want to teach at a public school.You might as well start all over again cause they aren’t taking your unaccredited agree.

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