358 thoughts on “Political Statements”

  1. I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

    For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

    For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;

    (1 Tim. 2:1-3)

    Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

    To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

    Titus 3:1-2

    And the “Pastor” has a bumper sticker which parrots the profound rudeness of a rotten loudmouth. Amazing.

    Does the Pastor ever read his Bible? Does he understand it? Does he believe it? Or does he bleep right over these things?

    1. We also pray for our country which does need a spiritual revival one way or another. And the Bible does say to pray for our leaders. Our country did have the Great Awakening before the Revolution and I think we need something like that again. The churches thirty years before we declared independence were dead. We need a George Whitfield again!

  2. Ugh. Yeah pretty sure I would run the other direction.
    The marriage of right wing republicanism and faith-just another reason I left the super conservative church I used to attend….

    1. And I’m sure all the liberal Methodist Kool-Aid drinking liberal churches have Obama stickers all over them and all the liberals still flock to those churches. They also fly rainbow flags too. I’ve seen them in my area as well.

      The marriage of the Methodist church and the Democrat party is complete yet you don’t mention that.

      Why!?

      1. Well, if this were a site called “Stuff Wesleyans Like” then I probably would mention it. But it’s not.

        1. I THOUGHT you were a Conservative Darrell?

          What happened to the light-hearted Satire??

        3. For one thing, there are plenty of conservatives on here who agree that this kind of blatant political messaging from the pastor of a church is divisive and counter-productive to the overall mission of the church.

          You can hardly talk about fundamentalism without talking about politics. Fundamentalism is incredibly political in its approach.

          For another thing I think you should read my other blog: My Obama Year

  3. No bumper stickers on my car right now. I have had a “26.2” and a running dog.
    What I really want is an NPR sticker and another one that says “Listening to NPR on my to Whole Foods. Got a problem with that?” LOL. I’ll probably stick with stealth mode so nobody identifies my car at the liquor store.

  4. Not that you’ll miss me…but this was pretty much the last straw. I found this site because a friend of mine directed me here. Because we shared a history together and much of it was during a period in our lives when we both attended a very fundie church. We both saw the damage that did and both have spent much of our lives helping people get out of that…he in his ministry as a pastor and me by writing books and articles.
    The essence of this site has always been the critique of the THEOLOGY behind Fundie-ism. But the last two threads have simply established what I have seen happening here for a while now. I’m going to go the bold route of the self-appointed prophet and wag my bony finger in your face…”Thou art the man!” (I had to use KJV for old times sake) These last two threads have been all about assumptions about the people and nothing about the substance or the theology. The thread two days ago about the questionnaire…there were at least two people, myself being perhaps the main one (since I attended that church for most of my childhood and into my young adult years) who explained how kind and loving the people were at that church. This was ignored but assumptions abounded because of a questionnaire. not because of personal interactions…because of a THIRTY FIVE YEAR OLD QUESTIONNAIRE!. Let the facts be damned! Let’s attack a “Fundie!” I left that place long ago but many of the families ae still there. They saw it through the crazy days. It will never be a contemporary church and there will be remnants of what we would call “Fundie-ism” but they’ve been there 60 years with the same man at the helm. That much time would expose bad character if it existed. This isn’t Hammond Indiana where he could get himself entrenched with the local gendarme. This is a VERY progressive, predominantly Catholic part of the world where every plan for the church was fought. There was nobody to pay hush money to, no friends on the newspaper staff who could bury a story. They weren’t deviants or cultic. He was born in 1921 and is shows in his preaching and in his personal living. PERIOD.
    Then yesterday, many of you devoured a preacher you have never met and never will. You made broadcloth character assumptions based on two bumper stickers on his truck. My guess is because he is very much against this “president”. THAT is your real issue. But you couch it in an attack on his “Fundie-ism” when the truth is that if this truck belonged to the cross dressing gay pastor of a homosexual-specific church it wouldn’t matter to you. You saw him for his bumper stickers and they are against your sacred cow of a “president” and that’s all you need. So tell me how this is in ANY way different from what this site claims to be about? Tell me what separates you from the “Fundies” who (as you claim) attack people for their political affiliation, their clothing choices, or which version of the Bible they use? ZERO! You have become what you beheld. None of you (save one or two who know me away from this site) know my story and why I DO have an axe to grind with this “president” and how his policies HAVE directly effected me and my daughter. You have no idea what pain I have endured and how it was a direct result of his…ummm…”leadership”. I’m not going to spew it here. This is Darrell’s site and not mine. But I assure you my disgust with this man runs far deeper than whether I think he is a closet Muslim or where he was born. One can be born in the Capitol itself and still not be an American at heart. This does not apply to all but to some…to the majority here it seems. Check yourselves. You’re not in the least bit different from those you came here to reprove. You might be on the surface but not in substance. You just aim your legalism at someone else. When you set the prisoners free you are a liberator. When you place the former jailors in jail…you simply become another jailor.
    Take care…see you on down the road

    1. “The essence of this site has always been the critique of the THEOLOGY behind Fundie-ism.”

      You haven’t really been paying attention. The essence of this site is satire. That takes many forms. Apparently we attacked one of your sacred cows. That is how satire works sometimes.

      You might find it interesting that the love and grace that I have experienced during my 3 years on SFL has actually helped me in my faith. My faith which was pretty much stripped away because of my time in fundyland.

      1. I always thought the essence of this site was making fun of whatever’s funny about Fundies.

      3. Most liberals, 1. Work for the union or the government. 2. Live in welfare/SSDI.

        Now, watch how many of them pounce all over me.

        They don’t understand that small businesses are being decimated by Obama. FACT: ONLY 270,000 full time jobs and 1.9 part-time jobs have been created since 2009. Even the unions are calling for Obamacare to be repealed. The IRS union is calling for FULL repeal. The SEIU, roofers and the IEBW or the electrical unions are also calling for the full repeal of Obama-doesn’t-care.

        3. RobM:

          “House Republicans have crunched the numbers and say that since President Obama took office, the economy has added seven times more part-time jobs than it has created full-time jobs.

          Since January 2009 the country has added a net total of 270,000 full-time jobs, but it has added 1.9 million part-time jobs, according to the House Ways and Means Committee.

          The numbers come as Republicans argue that the president’s health care law is pushing businesses to save money and push workers into shorter schedules to avoid the penalties that come from hiring more full-time workers, who under the law will be required to be covered with health care insurance.”

          Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/inside-politics/2013/aug/5/obama-economy-part-time-jobs-swamp-full-time-jobs/#ixzz2bb27tBkX
          Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

          Please show me where the good economic news is b/c I don’t see any.

          Obamacare is turning this country into a part-time nation.

        4. Even the IRS which is tasked with enforcing this POS Obama-doesn’t-care wants to be exempt from the law.

          “IRS employees have a prominent role in Obamacare, but their union wants no part of the law.

          National Treasury Employees Union officials are urging members to write their congressional representatives in opposition to receiving coverage through President Obama’s health care law.

          The union leaders are providing members with a form letter to send to the congressmen that says “I am very concerned about legislation that has been introduced by Congressman Dave Camp to push federal employees out of the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program and into the insurance exchanges established under the Affordable Care Act.”

          The NTEU represents 150,000 federal employees overall, including most of the nearly 100,000 IRS workers.”

          http://washingtonexaminer.com/irs-employee-union-we-dont-want-obamacare/article/2533520

        7. Jeanette, you’ve not seeing any good economic news there because you aren’t looking at it. You’re looking at stuff that has been cherry-picked to put things in the worst possible light. And I’m not going to give you more because you won’t look at it anyway, but I’ll tell you this: if you’re going to use the Washington Times as a source, you’ll immediately lose all credibility with a great number of people- Republicans included. The fanatics you’ll meet on Red State and Little Green Footballs will eat it up. Steve King in Oklahoma will love it. But the actual leadship won’t get behind it because a few of them still care about facts. And if you look to a paper that has been little but a mouthpiece for Rev. Moon and his bunch of fun bags, you have problems that I cannot solve.

        8. I’m a progressive, which you would probably call a liberal. I like some of what Obama has done, and don’t like some of what he’s done. I think the Affordable Care Act is a great step in the right direction. It’s not a perfect step, but it’s movement and as a Christian I appreciate movement toward taking care of the least of these.

          Also, I’m not on welfare, and I don’t work for the government. I work and live in a very religiously and politically conservative environment, so I guess that blows that theory. it’s a straw man anyway- there are plenty of people who love Jesus a whole lot and hold progressive views.

  5. Somewhere up stream in all of this someone (I believe it was Scorpio) hit the nail on the proverbial head, saying something to the effet that the problem was going to church is a one-way conversation.

    That is the crux of the problem I have with church. Only one opinion is allowed to be spoken, only one voice is allowed to be heard. It is merely a lecture series.

    Now, while I still attend a church service for the moment I am finding it more am more dificult to do so. The passive pew is killing Christianity more surely and more effectively than an army of Atheists could in a humdred lifetimes. There is no building up of the Saints using the passive pew model. If one is not allowed to exercise their gifts and brains then psychosis and entrophy sets in. Faith gets flabby and become addictively dependent on a thrice-weekly injection of religion in order to make it appear that one has a “living” faith.

    The passive pew also enables the pulpit to get off of preaching Christ and get sidetracked into political, economic, and cultural ditches. The pulpit sees the passive pew as their own power source. No one can question the pulpit. It is deemed holy and sacred. The pulpit is sanctified and above question as all that is breathed forth from there is of god. (little g on purpose)

    Yes we have freedom of speech and can post bumperstickers on our own vehicles. And yes, we should vote our personal convictions, not those of the pulpit. The tragedy is we are a nation of followers. The masses are easily manipulated into doing what a minority of “alphas” have declared to be good and desirable. This applies to everything in life religion, politics, social issurs, even down to what we spend our money on for daily supplies and entertainment. Madison Ave. types have made obscene fortunes by manipulating the masses. That mentality has manifested itself in the pulpits of America as well.

    Christ is merely a poster boy for Americanized religion. Jesus, heaven, hell, and the King James Version of the Bible are all merely props in the Kabuki Theater we call church.

    1. Have you thought about attending a larger protestant church in the presby or lutheran denom?

      When my church attendance grinded to a halt, experiencing a healthy dose of liturgy really helped me get my bearings.

      Many churches that have an order of worship and have planned liturgy also tend to have planned sermons which help control that “cult of personality” style of pastoral leadrship. The focus is Jesus in the presesnt and the history of Jesus. The heidelberg catechism and westminster confession are so solid.

      Hope you don’t mind my two cents Don. I think you are terrfic and so on point. It makes me sad that you would feel so down. 🙁

      1. forgot to add that liturgy naturally combats that “one way conversation”

        our church has actually used that phrase and told us as congregation that they do NOT want it to be that way!

      2. I agree with Presbygirl- a liturgical church tends to focus on process rather than the person. It’s one of the things I appreciate about a liturgical church.

        A smaller parish might be a good idea though. I arrived in my Episcopal parish shortly after they had a traumatic split. I was kind of thrown into things out of necessity, and I’ve not had the opportunity to to be a passive pew-sitter. There’s too much to do!

        1. The non-denom church we’ve visited preaches in an expository manner and we like that. They even have *gasp, drums! 😛

      3. I have actually played with the idea of maybe… attending a Presbyterian or Luthern church. The only reason I’m attending where we are now is because my daughter likes the Sunday School.

        Personally I have more fellowship with the folks at the “Y” than I do at church. This “church” is great with expository preaching… but if you want fellowship then you have to be a “member.” Membership is the elephant in the room with these folks. If you are not a member or at least attending their membership class, then no one there is going to invest any time or effort in you. I have made it rather clear to them that I do not believe in church membership any longer. I am a Christian and that is my bona fides, I don’t need to join a specific religious clique in order to have my spirituality or salvation authenticated and if only members are allowed to serve then I’ll find something to do outside the confines of “membership.”

        I figure if anyone wants to get to know me then they will approach me and we can go for coffee, or out to dinner or just sit and talk (a dying art). However, in the three years we have been attending this church no one has even made the attempt(outside a Sunday School function… and dinner/game night with my daughter’s in-laws doesn’t count as that was a family function)

        Maybe it’s my breath? I do shower regularly. Maybe it was my long hair and beard? *sigh* Anyway, whatever it is, I just don’t know how much longer I will even attend actual church services.

        Hey, I have SFL and I joined the Y that ought to be enough socializing for anyone. 😉

    4. The passive, Lukewarm pew IMO is the last church age spoken of in Revelation. I don’t walk around predicting dates or anything, I just see a church that ineffective. Hubby and I have visited a non denomination church once but we haven’t been back for two months. We also haven’t been to an IFB church for a LONG time.

      Barring some type of TRUE revival, our country is going the way of Rome and we know how THAT turned out.

      And yes, I AM a Dispensationalist. I didn’t study the End Times until I was a Christian for 22 years.

  7. In 2004, I was asked to leave a church (which to that point had been conservative but not fundie) I’d been a member of for more than seven years because I had a simple, understated Kerry-Edwards campaign bumper sticker on my car. I was only too happy to comply.

  8. Wow. The comments for this post got raucous!

    Let me just say this in response to the “Who are you to judge some bumper stickers/Not going to that church because of some bumpers stickers is the same as fundies not going to a church because women there wear pants.” Paul stated that he went out of his way to be all things to all men. The very purpose of the church, of a man of God, is to show the love of Christ in order to lead humans of all stripes and walks to the cross. If a pastor (and I might even in some circumstances extend that to any member of the church) has put bumper stickers on his vehicle that are as divisive as those are, he has stopped being all things to all men. And the thing is, he knows he’s alienating a whole bunch of people and doesn’t care. He has placed his personal expression of his political beliefs above his call to minister in love and preach the gospel. That is not the kind of man I want to put my spiritual walk under. My previous pastor, whom I deeply respect, never made alienating political comments. Ever. His desire to minister to whomever came into his church was greater than his desire to make a political point. This is why I would not attend the church in the photograph. This is why I feel it is indeed a theological issue of importance. If a pastor feels that expressing his political opinions is more important than being able to invite in humans of all walks, that is not the pastor that I want any more than I want the pastor who feels his personal opinion about women in pants is more important than being a spiritual shepherd to women who might wear pants. Political expressions and opinions can be just as divisive, and just as easily used for spiritual abuse, as the typical fundy fallacies we all love to point out.

    So, Darrell asks, “If you’re a Democrat would you go to a church where the pastor’s truck looks like this?” and my answer is, “No, I would not” because a pastor willing to offend over politics is very, very likely to view politics as a tool of spiritual abuse (eg If you’re a true bible-believing Christian, you’ll also be a conservative).

    1. RenéeD, Beautifully spoken. I’m not sure it could be better stated, though many others have made excellent points.

      Your point, I believe, is especially true when you wrote, “If a pastor… has put bumper stickers on his vehicle that are as divisive as those are, he has stopped being all things to all men.

  9. Yes, I would. Let me clarify. Yes. Positively. Affirmative. Absolutely. Would you go to a church where the pastor had a COEXIST bumper sticker? Most on the site would, so why can’t I have a pastor that expresses his political opinion. Doesn’t mean I always have to agree with him, but he should be allowed to say what he believes, just like you should. This is not satire because the whole question is meant to offend. Now if the question was “I guess we know where this pastor stands politically?” That could possibly be satire.

    1. Coexist bumper sticker is not analogous. You should try try pick one that is, rather than one you happen to hate.

  10. josh: Would you happen to be an IFB pastor who owns a red truck with a bunch of bumper stickers proclaiming the gospel of political rightness?

    2. Wow. That’s not very Christ-like, now is it.

      I’ll bet you go to a liberal church with Obama stickers ALL over it.

      Busted!

  11. “…This is not satire because the whole question is meant to offend.”

    Who is it meant to offend? It’s an honest question meant to inspire debate.

  12. Fish-n-Chips: Actually I am a Southern Baptist youth pastor that drives a red Prius. Although it would be funny if I was the owner of the red truck.

    1. Actually, josh, I believe you. A true IFB company man wouldn’t be able to choke out, “I’m a Southern Baptist youth pastor,” no matter how hard he may be trying to conceal his true identity!

  13. I’m not sure what SFL started off to be, I thought it was about doing satire on fundamentalism, primarily of the Baptist kind, but it has turned into a very left leaning, liberal progressive site!

    Have any opinion you want as long as it’s not conservative!

    3. I’m very conservative in many ways. I don’t feel like I have to apologize for that here??

    4. I am considered by most of the folks I know as fairly conservative. I have some pretty good friends who are considered liberal. We understand we have differences. We sometimes discuss them. We don’t have to agree to like and respect each other.

      I’m pretty sure I have stated some personal beliefs on SFL that are shared by most of the Fundies we satirize. (HEE HEE–spell-check just offered me the word “sterilize”) I have never felt like anyone berated me for my views when they were disagreed with.

      Greg, maturity and respect allow us to disagree and be friends. I think you are reading too much into things and looking to pick a fight where no reason for one exists.

    5. Lighten up, Greg!

      In a very fundamental way (pun intended), leaving fundamentalism is leaving conservatism.

      Teach someone to think for themselves, to question dogma, to recognize flaws in authorities and authoritarianism, and you no longer have a conservative.

      But then, Jesus was no conservative, either. Christianity was never meant to be conservative. In Bible-described Christianity, the old is never preserved. Old things are passed away — behold, new things have come! It was said to you from old times [this is the Law], but I say unto you [something better than the Law is now here!].

      Something that is life-changing, relationship-changing, even society-changing cannot be conservative. “Love your neighbor as yourself” is not conservative. It is radical.

      The problem is that people want the name of Christian without having to put forward the energy and commitment it demands. And if Christianity as a whole is nothing more than social conservatism frosted with a sprinkling of selected scripture candies, then it is time to chuck it out and start over.

      Fortunately, we aren’t there yet.

    6. Absolutely!

      That’s why I came here! For the most part, politics was left to one section of the forum. But now, it’s all over the site.

      That’s why I don’t post on Joy in the Morning or Rachel Evan b/c they are leftist sites. I just want a site that is about the IFB, NOT politics.

      1. “I just want a site that is about the IFB, NOT politics.”

        That’s like saying, “I want a steak without any meat.”

      2. Besides, we’re organic!! Meaning, the conversation goes where the conversation goes!

  14. I have no problem with churches who are political either way b/c free speech and religion are protected in the 1st amendment. If you don’t like a political church, don’t go there.

    The term “separation of church and state” was in a letter from Tom Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists staying that he didn’t want Congress/government to be the head of religion like the Monarchy of England was head of the Church of England.

    And when LBJ rammed through Congress a law that if a church talks about politics from the pulpit, they would lose their tax-exempt status, and that is unconstitutional.

    The churches/clergy during the Revolution recruited minutemen from the pulpit and I’m glad they did! Otherwise, this blog may not be here LOL! 😛

    1. Jeanette,

      Probably too late for you to read this, but the law removing a tax-exempt status if clergy speak about politics is NOT unconstitutional. No one is abrogating anyone’s First Amendment rights. The government is simply saying they are unwilling to extend special tax breaks to organizations (churches or not) that engage in political speech. And that is the government’s prerogative. If anything, special tax breaks for 501(c)(3) organizations may be constitutionally questionable, but not government policies that limit speech in exchange for the no-tax privilege. Also, one might note that many pastors from many denominations break this rule ALL THE TIME and there has yet to be a single IRS action against any of them.

      -Deacon’s Son, Esq.

      1. Like I said, Clergy during the Revolution spoke OPENLY and POLITICALLY about the movement for Independence. Many of them gave their lives for that too.

        As far as I’m conerned, our Founders would have revolted when the “progressive taxes” were became law. I call them “regressive” b/c punishing people for making more and “spreading the wealth” is socialism not freedom.

        The IRS should be abolished. Just look at how many TEA party/Conservative groups they targeted in the last 5 years. It was up to 500. Get rid of it and go to a flat tax. Even God had every pay 10% therefore everyone paid there ‘fair share.’

        Have you ever listened to Obama’s pastor Jeremiah “Goddamm America it’s in the Bible” Wright? He was VERY political in his church and no one gave a damn.

        The IRS is a tool to punish Conservatives. End of Story.

        Abolish it.

        1. Interesting. Without the IRS and income taxes, how do you propose to fun things like… DEFENSE? Interstate commerce? INS? Drug enforcement? NOAA? National Parks? D of Energy? Interior? Education?Health and Human Services? or any of the other numerous thing that we pay for because living in civilization is a GOOD THING.

          And the supposed IRS audits? Uh-huh. Of the 298 groups selected for special scrutiny … 72 had ‘tea party’ in their title, 13 had ‘patriot’ and 11 had ‘9/12.’ ” That equaled 96 groups, or 32.2 percent of the declared 298.

          If you want to be political, then be political. Tax laws regarding political groups are different than for churches and charity groups. PACs and other groups, such as 527s have very specific regulations. And one of the most important rules- no mixing. money from a 527 may NOT go to a 501c3, for instance, or vice versa. Politics and the Pulpit are separate, and by law, must remain that way.

          And if you they they should be mixed, then you need to sit down and read the truth about our ‘pilgrim fathers’. Start with what happened to Ann Hutchinson and Roger Williams.

        2. The government owns to much land to begin with.

          National parks are fine, but the government owns too much land.

          With a flat tax, we wouldn’t NEED the IRS b/c the TAX code is tens of thousands of pages LONG and that would change. It would be a simple process. Or, if it is needed, it would be a MUCH smaller part of government. And EVERYONE would pay their fair share just like God did in the OT where God had EVERYONE pay their fair share of 10%. The former Soviet Union is doing a flat tax and they are doing fine as a former communist country LOL!

          Welfare needs GO and the people who are truly poor can get help through the church like the Bible said. Also, 70% of every tax dollar goes to the bloated federal government, only 30% the poor. The rest goes to fat-cat bureaucrats who make over 100K a year just to cut checks to “the poor.” That is a waste of our tax dollar. The Catholic Church spends millions if not billions on social services including free health care. I have personally used them and so has my sister. We both had surgery written off when we didn’t have insurance. The American people are the MOST giving people on the planet, but we DO resent sending MOST Of our money for government employees. That’s a waste of money. Case in point, the American people donated 2 BILLION dollars to the RED CROSS the week after 9/11. Why do we need the federal government to divy out money when we can donate through our local churches? If Jesus were alive today, he’d be slamming “progressive taxes” and unfair and not Biblical. It is more in line with Karl Marx who started Socialism or progressivism (regressivism). That’s why the economy is doing SO badly under Obama.

          50 million people on food stamps IS progress! We didn’t have that many on food stamps under Bush! Bush had 5% unemployment and Obama has 12-14%!

          Case in point, Romney gave 31% of his income in 2012. Romney donated his WHOLE inheritance to charity when he was in college.

          Obama only donated 21% of his income to charity. His OWN brother lives in a hut on 20 bucks year. Shouldn’t charity begin in his OWN home? Israel also gave Obama’s aunt free eye surgery. Again, the progressive Obama isn’t very charitable in his OWN home? And don’t get me started on his drunk uncle.

          We’ve had national defense since Tom Jefferson funded the Navy/Marines to kick the ass of the Barbary Pirates or the Muslims who were capturing our ships and holding them for ransom.. Since when do Muslims honor their word? The own “Holy Book” says to kill Jews and Christians if they do not convert. Jefferson even bought a Q’uran to read what these people believed.

          “To the Shores of Tripoli” That’s where the Barbary Pirates were located. And that’ where the Marines first kicked ass and took names! Semper Fi!

          The Marine Song:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh5OlT-cslQ

          We didn’t started welfare in this country UNTIL the 70s. Welfare in this country needs to go b/c it IS most of the national budget compared to national defense. And if we don’t defend this country, we won’t have a country. Peace, through Strength” Ronald Reagan.

          Speaking of the function of the church, socialist programs are nowhere mentioned in the Bible. In fact, the Bible DOES say, “if YOU don’t provide for your OWN household, you’re worse than an INFIDEL.” Right? It doesn’t say, “be poor and the government will provide FREE: housing, food, health care, electric bills, and phones.”

          And God only required everyone to give 10% in the OT an he’s the fairest person in the world. IF everyone paid their fair share, the national budget would be taken care of. Punishing the rich to pay for “progressive (regressive socialist) programs” are something that was designed by Karl Marx, NOT our Founding Fathers. We are, or were, a free market capitalist system for over two hundred years and we were better of for it. Wealth trickles down, not up. Just compare Ronald Reagan’s economy and Obama’s. And RR worked with a Democrat controlled Congress and even Clinton worked with a Republican Congress to give us a fairly decent economy and now all of a sudden, “It’s Bush’s fault” Obama can’t. Puulleeease. Obama cant’ hack it b/c he’s never run a business in his life. Either man up and do the job or step down. “The Buck Stops Here (with Obama) The Democrat Harry Truman. Obama wanted the job, he got it twice. Either put up or shut up.

          And FTR, I read liberal, conservative and libertarian websites and make up my own mind. Cable sux therefore I do Netflix for my entertainment b/c I hate commercials. I don’t watch Cable hardly at all especially the News Programs.

          There are even UNIONS calling for the repeal of Obamacare. Here is an article by the mostly liberal website, TheHill.

          “Labor unions are breaking with President Obama on ObamaCare.

          Months after the president’s reelection, a variety of unions are publicly balking at how the administration plans to implement the landmark law. They warn that unless there are changes, the results could be catastrophic.

          The United Food and Commercial Workers International Union (UFCW) — a 1.3 million-member labor group that twice endorsed Obama for president — is very worried about how the reform law will affect its members’ healthcare plans.

          Last month, the president of the United Union of Roofers, Waterproofers and Allied Workers released a statement calling “for repeal or complete reform of the Affordable Care Act.”

          http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/300881-labor-unions-break-ranks-on-health-law

          “The IRS which is tasked with deciding WHO gets Obamacare has said, “we don’t want Obamacare” That’s like Congress last week being exempt from it which pisses me OFF. They should be behold to the laws they pass on us “little people.

          IRS employees have a prominent role in Obamacare, but their union wants no part of the law.

          National Treasury Employees Union officials are urging members to write their congressional representatives in opposition to receiving coverage through President Obama’s health care law.

          The union leaders are providing members with a form letter to send to the congressmen that says “I am very concerned about legislation that has been introduced by Congressman Dave Camp to push federal employees out of the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program and into the insurance exchanges established under the Affordable Care Act.”

          The NTEU represents 150,000 federal employees overall, including most of the nearly 100,000 IRS workers”

          http://washingtonexaminer.com/irs-employee-union-we-dont-want-obamacare/article/2533520

          LOL! These people are the who are tasked with who gets Obamacare! But they don’t want to be forced to go on it like the rest of us “little people.”

        3. Regressive is the opposite of progressive. Progressive is increasing rates as your income is higher, Regressive is putting an increasingly heavier burden on those with decreasing amount of income, like sales taxes & payroll taxes.

        4. @Liutgard, Defense it the biggest single item in the budget, and definitely should be cut by a lot on an idealist agenda. Cutting big budget has a huge impact on jobs & the economy however, and one that isn’t a realistic expectation. Ending the IRS sounds good to people that don’t like paying taxes but is a really silly goal to set.

        5. RobM, yeah it’s silly. Booting the IRS and taxes- how to they expect things to be paid? On what planet does it work that way? If you, say, quit your job, how to you expect your bills to be paid?

          I have a couple of friends that are in the hole because of a family issue. Catching up is hard- she’s a nurse, he’s a stay-at-home dad. They needed more income, so she’s taking extra hours and he’s doing computer stuff from home; they juggle hours depending on the boys’ needs, and which one of them is available. The two of them move the burden back and forth depending on their abilities. They are prudent, but they know that cutting expenses for the boys is out of the question.

          Why can’t we take that ethic into public life?

        6. RobM and Luitgard:

          Heath and Human Services get MORE money than national defense.

          http://www.federalbudget.com/

          That’s ALL welfare money. And defense is currently being gutting by Obama.

          I talked to a lady whose hubby is in the Army and she said his paycheck went down 13% as of Jan. 1st b/c of Obamacare. Also, her hubby does get much hazard pay for going overseas. TRI-care is being gutted b/c Obama is using the so called Sequester to punish our military. Those were her exact words.

        7. Oops, doesn’t get much hazard pay for serving overseas. Butterfingers. 😛

          I guess there is no edit button here?

        8. Can’t even. begin. So much misinformation and stuff that has been debunked over, and over. You may think you make up your own mind, but you are lockstep with the radical Republicans and the Libertarians. And you’re good at cut-and-paste, I’ll give you that. But it is completely pointless to respond to your diatribe. All I can do is say this:

          Ezekiel 16:49-50

          New International Version (NIV)

          49 “‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.”

        9. Obama RAISED taxes on the middle class on Jan. 1st. Check out the reaction on Twitter:

          I thought Obama wasn’t going to raise taxes on the middle class, but my paycheck was down by 2 percent today. That Kind of hurts. Yikes!

          Obama promised not to increase taxes on families making less than $250,000. Why do I have $30 less in my paycheck Mr. President?

          Just checked my pay stub… My taxes went up $25 a paycheck in 2013. That’s $650 more a year. Ouch!

          http://twitchy.com/2013/01/04/hope-and-less-change-americans-cringe-at-first-paychecks-of-2013-stunned-lib-asks-what-happened/

          But really how am I ever supposed to pay off my student loans if my already small paycheck keeps getting smaller? Help a sister out, Obama

          Fucking Obama! Fuck you! This taking out more taxes shit better fucking help me out!! Very upset to see my paycheck less today!

          http://twitchy.com/2013/01/06/crushed-unicorn-dreams-why-is-my-paycheck-less-turns-to-obama-vote-regrets-i-should-have-voted-romney/

          Bush Tax cuts were across the board and all the way down to the bottom of the pay scale and so were Reagan Tax Cuts.

          You Obama voters voted FOR higher taxes for the middle class and the poor.

          Congrats…Regressives. Obama taxes hikes and Obamacare are KILLING this economy.

        10. That soldier’s pay did not go down because of the ACA. It went down because of the sequester. I know this because my roommate *just* retired from her GS9 position (six weeks ago, but the papers are still processing), working for the 6th Battalion Army Recruiting station. She was the Soldier and family Assistant. She deal DIRECTLY with the medical care issues and billing for the recruiters and their families. She was the one who made arrangements for the recruiters’ families when they were transferred to different duty station. She ran marriage enrichment seminars, helped men get help for PTSD. She was the one who helped them get debt counseling, and deal with all of the paperwork changes when they got married or had a new baby. she saw the cuts up close and personal. And the sequester was *not* to punish the military. It went across the board on the budget. Everyone got hurt. And it was not the President’s fault. He had a budget, Congressional (the House mostly) leadership refused to even let it go to the floor for a vote? Did they have a solution? Not. Do they have one yet? No. They have no intention to work with the President, and they have said so bluntly.

          The is not the country that was when I took Civics, a million years ago.

        11. Romney helped the poor more than Obama did.

          And nowhere is it in the Bible where the government FORCED you to pay for the killing of 54,000,000 unborn babies. 3,000 babies a day including 1,000 BLACK BABIES A DAY. Who is the racist now? You’ve murdered 17,000,000 black babies since 1973. You’ve killed more people that Hitler. And you’re gonna catch up with Stalin soon. That’s “helping the poor” You’re killing OFF the poor? But you’re too blind to see it.

          Proverbs 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,” Abortion doctors and those that support them. It’s not a choice, it’s murdering innocent blood.

          And speaking of Sodom and Gomorrah, do you support homosexual marriage? And what did God do to Sodom and Gomorrah? HMM???? Did you miss the fire and brimstone part of that story where God killed them for homosexuality/immorality?

          Isiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

          That sums up the whole radical Marxist/Democrat Party who punishes people who make money to enslave blacks again with failing schools, welfare and abortion. They’re back on the Democrat Plantation again just like they were in the Democrat South when you kept them as slaves. Democrats have to have an underclass so they’ll vote for them over an over again. That’s what welfare is: voting buying. How moral is THAT??

          See? Wealth doesn’t trickle up and Obama is the perfect example.

          Even unions want OUT of Obamacare. Did you even read the articles? Hmmm?

        12. For someone complaining about religious sites turning political, you have posted the majority of politically themed comments. Intriguing.

          Also, the President did not raise taxes on Jan. 1. The Republican controlled House allowed the payroll tax holiday to lapse (something that would have needed to happen eventually anyway) when it was their responsibility to renew it if they wanted it (tax policy changes of that sort are solely under the scope of the House). They chose not to bring it up to a vote and renew. That is not the President’s responsibility or fault.

        13. Renee,

          And Obama signed that Bill raising taxes. Stop blaming the Republicans or “it’s Bush’s fault.”

          Obama can either man up, or get out.

          And to all the naysayers, prove my “disinformation” wrong. I want proof, I’m wrong.

          And from what I’m told, “speech on here goes anywhere it want’s b/c we’re organic.” I’m just following your lead.

  15. I will say, finally, that part of the debate is how Christ’s church functions; do we function as a mirror image of our culture/society? Or do we function according to New Testament teaching?

    Does our form of government and rights provided therein trump what our Lord and His Apostles taught?

    Does the Spirit of God affirm our rights under the constitution of the United States? What trumps what here?

    We all have certain rights in this country such as free speech. When, however, does exercising these rights “Willy nilly” adversely affect the church from being salt and light in this world? This pastor does have his right to proclaim what he would define as “the truth.” Doesn’t the Bible tell us how to speak the truth?

    I still affirm the spirit of RenéeD’s comment: sayhttp://www.stufffundieslike.com/2013/08/political-statements/comment-page-2/#comment-231107

    2. What are unalienable rights?

      http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/unalienable.htm

      The unalienable rights that are mentioned in the Declaration of Independence could just as well have been inalienable, which means the same thing. Inalienable or unalienable refers to that which cannot be given away or taken away.

      It refers to that which cannot be taken away.

      God gave the Israelites the right to be autonomous and they screamed for a King.

      Our Founders gave us the same right except we screamed for Big Government.

      We’re repeating the same mistakes Israel did. Study the Kings in the OT. When they did evil in the sight of the LORD they were punished. I firmly believe America is or will be judged by God very very soon.

      1. This is a WOW.

        If you read the Declaration you will not find any bestowing of absolute autonomous rights to individuals. The inalienable rights listed are secured & protected by the government according to the founders. I think your beef is with them.

        1. Those rights are secured by our Creator.

          The Federal Government or a central government is not mentioned in the DoI and I challenge you to find it, if you can.

          “Spreading the wealth” is something Karl Marx did, not Jesus Christ.

          So, I’ll be waiting for you to find the Federal Government in the DoI, The Constitution and the BoR.

          When our country was founded, rights were given to the states and that’s in the 10th amendment. Even SCOTUS gave states an our to crappy Obamacare.

          So get, crackin’ and get your Founding Documents out any find a central government b/c those rights cannot be taken away.

          Oh, and SCOTUS even said Chicago can carry guns in a CCW manner.

        2. ““Spreading the wealth” is something Karl Marx did, not Jesus Christ.”

          Clearly you need to re-read the Gospels. Especially Matthew.

        3. Those rights are secured by our Creator.

          The Federal Government or a central government is not mentioned in the DoI and I challenge you to find it, if you can.

          —

          I see. But the Creator only secures these rights in the United States, right? Certainly not in Burma, or Laos, or in Saudi Arabia.

          Since government has nothing to do with it (according to you), then God must be partial to the US. Maybe England, too, now that we aren’t rebelling against them. Is that because of the KJV Bible?

          Of course I am teasing you. But doesn’t it seem ludicrous? God does not just keep a people free. Freedom is a function of government. Even Paul in Romans 13 talks about government as a tool of God, and the government Paul referred to was a real terror!

        4. @rtgmath for those of us that read the DoI, it actually says that the inalienable rights — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed…

          Also states over & over in mundane detail & tear inducing repetitiveness that the King’s refusal to pass laws, enact legislation, etc required by the colonist along with lack of self representation/government to enact the laws that the citizens see fit is the causus belli (or whatever the equivalent of that is for declaring independence).

          He has refused his Assent to Laws…
          He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws…
          He has refused to pass other Laws…
          He has endeavoured to prevent…Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners….

          On & on about the desired & needed institutions of Government to regulate & legislate the American society.

          Also a very false notion that founders were against taxes or progressive taxes. Founders were against taxes to government they weren’t allowed to influence. When they established our government they paid for it with tariffs on imports that was a very progressive form of taxation.

        5. I definitely agree with you, Rob.

          There is this “conservative”-defined hysteria against government. And somehow fundamentalist churches and lots of Christians have hooked into it, merging their faith with political doctrine. I used to be one of those.

          But really, where in the Bible is it said we are to carry guns and blow away our enemies?

          Yes, yes, I have heard many a sermon about how Jesus told his disciples to take swords with them. But they never read to the end of the story. Jesus told them to take swords, rebuked them when they used them, then healed the enemy wounded by Peter. The swords were an object lesson. They are no defense. Jesus told Pilate, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were of this world, then my servants would fight. But now you know it is not from here.”

          Suffering for Christ’s sake is counted as good in the Bible. Killing your enemies is not.

          Neither is the rebellion against authority so many Fundamentalist Pastors advocate. Neither is the mocking and the reviling. Doctor Bob Jones Jr. liked to pray “imprecatory” prayers against government officials — and God answered none of them!

          And Jesus said to take care of the poor and the sick. So what do conservatives and fundamentalists do? They say government shouldn’t do it, but Jesus did not mean it to be a command, just a suggestion. And conservatives like to claim that God was not interested in social justice — I guess they never read Isaiah or the Law.

          The claim that God did not redistribute wealth is false — just look at the year of Jubilee when lands were supposed to be returned to their original families and all debts were canceled. And the Law forbad the complete reaping of the fields — the edges of the fields were for the poor.

          Income tax? Joseph, an Israelite, was the inventor of the income tax, and had a flat rate of 20% in Egypt. Somehow God approved!

          And the signature story Jesus told to demonstrate loving one’s neighbor as one’s self involved helping the helpless and providing health care to those who didn’t have it!

          Jesus was no conservative in His day. He was radical.

        6. I find it intriguing to read about the way Christians in america want their “rights” protected by law. There are more Christians in third world countries than in America and very few of them have the kind of “rights” that every American Christian sea to tale for granted. Where have these people gone wrong? Should they not be domding their rights as a good american Christian would?Jesus never said our rights would be protected. In John’s gospel (l think it’s ch. 15) he said “in this life you will have trouble”- which I think was referring to persecution and not just life’s misfortunes – “but be of good cheer. I have overcome the world. If we had the same concern about the lost as we do about our roghts

        7. Sorry I hit a button before I finished my rant. If we had the same concern for the lost as we do about our rights Christianity might actually have an impact on the world instead of being a laughing -stock.
          Rant over.

        8. When I say Christianity is a laughing stock I am talking about the West, even America. Over much off the non-western world – you know, the bit that doesnt count -to be a christian is not something that taken lightly. All the same I rather live in the West than say North Korea or Afghanistan…..

        1. Of course, you can’t.

          Have you even studied how our Founding Documents came about?

          Who is the Father of our Constitution?

          Let’s start with some basic civic questions.

          Or, is it, “you can’t even”…….

  16. This might or might not be a deal-breaker for me- I’ve had pastors who were much more conservative than I am, and also much more liberal.

    But there are two senses in which this is a potential warning sign.
    1. Fundamentalisms (liberal, conservative or secular) all tend to emphasize tribal loyalty. If there’s no interest within a church in helping me reach my secular liberal colleagues, students and family members because they are outside the tribe, that’s a betrayal of the Gospel and not helpful to my call as a Christian.
    2. Fundamentalisms also tend to emphasize right belief over the impacts of those beliefs on real people.

    The latter, by the way is one reason this is somewhat less of a problem in mainline churches. Because in such churches the tendency is to gather around community, liturgy, sacraments etc. as opposed to doctrine alone.

    -Anand

    1. I hear ya. And that’s why hubby and I have decided to go non-denom. It’s been a long time since we’ve been to an IFB church ’cause we had to detoxify. I also needed to get to a place where I trusted myself to go to church.

      The church we visited has home groups where ya’ll can *gasp visit outside the church. That’s something IFB churches discouraged esp. for women.

      Good luck in your search! 😀

    2. I grew up on northern Ireland, Anand, and you described the mentality perfectly.

      1. Unless you’re saying same person diff screen name? I always assume people stick with the same screen name, but I guess that’s possible too. Either way, pass.

        1. I don’t know what I am saying Rob. That is what happens when I read too many Fox Noise talking points. 😉

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