I have a message for you all from the First Baptist Church of Hammond, Indiana and their associated staff, members, fans, toadies, lackeys, and hangers-on: they would like for all of you to shut up now. Stop talking about Jack Schaap’s sin. Stop feeling sympathy for his victim. Stop recalling the sins of Jack and David Hyles. Stop bringing up all the many others just like them that have walked the halls of that church and school. Cease and desist. Just shut up.
You’re hurting the cause of Christ by letting the world know that (yet another!) fundamentalist pastor is a hypocrite. You’re hurting all the church members who sat and watched his shenanigans in silence and didn’t move to stop him. You’re vindictively hurting a good man who only made one little mistake and who has probably already suffered enough and should be back in another pulpit any time now.
Besides all that, you can’t possibly know the whole story. This seventeen-year old was just as guilty as the pastor who preyed on her. I heard from a very reliable source that he read on the Internet that she was a seductress trained by the Communists at the Vatican to ensnare fundamentalists preachers. And I like that story a lot better than the one you’re telling so it must be true. If there’s any victim here is that man of God who has lost his ministry. He’s all that matters, not some little tramp.
Is Schaap’s offense really all that great? He slightly stumbled. He merely tripped. He slipped a little, lost his balance and inadvertently penetrated a seventeen-year-old. It could happen to anybody. There’s no reason for all this fuss. After all, we can all agree that he’s still a wonderful man with a powerful ministry. Who cares what happens to one floozy? Is she more important than all the souls we’re trying to save?
All you have to do is be quiet. Sit silent. Do nothing.
Silence gives consent.
First?
YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!
Someone’s first first? 😀
I do like how long words just go off the end of the page. Very nice effect.
I noticed that too! I thought it was just my computer.
Now I’ve got to figure out how to make a butt cushion for her with words that carry off the side of it.
Madame Megan’s butt cushion should have “Yaaaaaa…aaay” going all the way around the front and back several times.
Oh, I know! Even better! It should have an appliqued Mobius strip with “Yaayyyyyaaaayyy” written infinitely around it.
Well, if I make one with the word going off the side, possibly with some kind of lumber, if she doesn’t like someone, she can keep them at a distance that way.
What is this butt cushion you’re talking about?
Megan – You know the butt cushions people use in church right? Well Natalie makes them for us when someone gets their first first.
She often takes her own butt cushion and moves to the other side of the church if you cross her. She does that a lot. You can see the path she has worn in the carpet from going back and forth.
And don’t pay any attention to what she has to say about me.
Oh, there’s a ‘Y’ all the way at the end if you scroll over far enough.
I thought David Caruso had just finished putting on his sunglasses.
😎 Yaaaaah!!
WOW!
Big letters! 😯
😆
I would just like to say thank you to all the little people that helped me throughout my endeavors to become #1. Please please, no applause.
(Note: this is extreme sarcasm)
This is true, completely 100% true. (And Jack, if your reading this, your “confidants'” aren’t as “reliable” as you’d like to think since I’m relaying your exact words to the internet, sucks to be you) 2 days after the story broke, Jack called someone I know “in the ministry” there and said this and that and ended the call with “…more than likely the authorities are going to lock me up and throw away the key” So all this nonsense talk about being quiet and shushing up is nonsense…..FBC is lame and my hope is that they rust away very very quickly or burn in a slow slow fire until there’s nothing left but bus kids
I knew the Catholics were behind the whole affair!
Its always the Catholics, how do I always forget that!
They planned it in the secret underground tunnels between the rectory and the convent!
Is this where they will choose the Anti-Christ also?
Ohhhhhhhhh……..I had forgotten all about the Catholic seductress conspiracy theories. *Hindu-statue multiple facepalm*
Ah, come on, Darrell. You know you’re just being bitter.
Jack Schaap: “Oops, I did it again.” 😳
Nooooo! Not a Brittany song that is now threating to go through my mind like a damned earworm!!!!
Here ya go, Beth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPthLG467NY
(I just can’t leave Britney alone.)
Sorry about that. Here’s a replacement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIGd2-wl8Mk
😆 😆 😆
I wonder how Scaap and his minions would feel if he knew how little the Catholics know or care about them?
Your username is excellent. Are you perhaps familiar with my friend SmiteTheUnbelieverWithCunningArguments?
Yup. His Vimes stories are my favoites
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, DARRELL!!!
I know I should be all sad and depressed and serious by this, but… really, Darrell, did you have to do this:
“He slipped a little, lost his balance and inadvertently penetrated a seventeen-year-old.”
I’m still giggling inappropriately at it! He was just walking along, polishing his rod perhaps, and whoops, his foot steps on a banana peel and he accidentally topples over onto a girl who happened to be sitting there. Could’ve happened to anybody!
(and yes, I know I probably shouldn’t make light of something this serious)
It’s ok, that’s what satire is all about.
You’re not alone… My immature, gutter-minded self laughed too. 😈
So, the floors at HAC are as slippery as the people?
HAC was built on a slippery slope………
Zing zing a da ding!!
True that.
Now I’m laughing inappropriately at both Darrell’s original comment and your “walking along, polishing his rod” response. Well done.
I shot an Arrow into the air
It fell to earth I know not where,
For so swiftly it flew, the sight
Could not follow it in its flight.
— Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
Just having a shiny shaft doesn’t necessarily give you good aim.
Glad you quoted that poem. One of my FB friends posted yesterday “I shot an arrow in the air…okay, that was just plain stupid.” So I commented using this poem and citing the author right now, so I can now impress my FB friends with my pseudo-intellectuallism!
But, isn’t it awful when that happens?
We should buy them rubber-soled shoes.
rubber boots might be an even more prudent choice – hip waders should be high enough
– Or rubbers! 😯
Quote from JS’ last sermon at FBCH:
05:46 “You know, the most common question I ask our teenagers: are you
safe in how you act? Mom and dad, you understand the language? That’s
my most common question. In Baptist Church, in Hammond, Indiana, are
you practicing safe sex?”
So, Jack, did you practice safe sex?
“Sure I did. I have a rail around the bed so I don’t fall off”
Maybe rubber culottes.
omg! Thats funny
😡 Darrell, did you have to turn my stomach so completely ❓ 🙁
Well done friend.
“Silence gives consent.”
I know you’re being facetious. I know it, I really do.
I just…can’t help but shudder and start hyperventilating as I hear all the crap people have told me. “Why didn’t you fight back? Why didn’t you say something? If someone touches you and you don’t want them to, just tell them no.”
And thus every unwanted touch, from “minor” infractions to my assault, are suddenly my fault. And I must yet remain silent to make people comfortable, because no one likes to talk about it. As if I enjoy talking about it.
(sigh) Sorry to rabbit-trail. My assault really wasn’t that bad (I know, you’re not supposed to say that). And I had been doing better. But my PTSD has been tremendously worse in the past week.
I’m sorry for what you’ve gone though. *hugs* And I think a lot of people are having trouble coping with the last week.
The “silence gives consent” comment is aimed at church members who refuse to speak the truth but prefer to excuse, cover up, diminish, or ignore serious sin and abuse. Their silence allows wickedness to flourish unchecked. And blaming the victim for not saying no (as if it were that simple) is just another cop-out.
Scripturally, those who are “strong” are to help and defend those who’ve been injured. “Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute” (Prov. 31:8).
Yes, Dani, I hope you understand that we’re talking about the silence of all the people who should have done something to stop it, and should be trying to prevent it happening again, not the silence of the victim (if she was silent).
Dear pastor’s wife:
Bull’s eye!
When the strong create a culture that supports discussion, Diotrephes’ hegemony will be broken, and those in bondage will walk into freedom.
Christian Socialist
I got what he was saying after I calmed down enough to reread and try to be objective. Just…my eyes skimmed over that line and…well, fear and dread and all that kicked in before I could process what was going on. Last week was a rough week, PTSD-wise, so I’m a bit jumpy.
The silence of victims is understandable – its easily explained by a number of factors, I know that is not what Darrell was getting at.
In fact one of the reasons for the silence of victims is the silence of those in the congregation who should be standing up, defending them, and speaking on their behalf to the powerful perverts who are demanding their silence. Why speak out if you are alone, vulnerable, and know that if you speak, all those who still think the emperor is wearing clothes will tear you to shreds. Of course you will want to be silent, and there is really no shame in that.
The people who should be ashamed are those who are aware, or should be aware of what is going on and stay silent because it might hurt their reputation for being under the control of such a person or institution, because their livelihood is derived from their association with them, or because they need so desperately to belong to something significant that they ignore the red flags, pretend its just the persecution of satan that makes them doubt, or because they are just as perverted and know that they can be covered up for when its their turn in the spotlight if they just support the status quo no matter what.
Silence of the victims? Understandable
Silence of these accessories after the fact? Immoral and Criminal
I’ve been alone in the crowed — knew that (nearly) every one else was drinking the Kool-aid and if we spoke up, we would be in danger. There were other non-Kool-aid drinkers, but they had been run off. Cowardice? Maybe. But I don’t know that I’d do it differently. The man-worship was scary.
There were other non-Kool-aid drinkers, but they had been run off.
No, they had been made into Examples.
“Make an Example of one, Silence a Hundred!”
Quite run… run off and preached against (made examples of)
Wow–profoundly truthful words right here…Made of examples of, vilified, shunned and covered in shame.. 😥
Hi, Beloved!
I haven’t seen your comments lately.
How ya doin’? 🙂
Victims are silent due to fear. . .and shame. LOTS of it.
THIS. Thank you.
Dani,
For me it was even worse. It was a man who sexually assaulted me. and for me to have “just let him do this and not fought back” as an 11 year old, was just weak on my part. I can tell you this, beyond a shadow of a doubt, as a victim, there is debilitating fear and there are paralyzing nightmares and there is such emotional and psycholigical pain and confusion that you can NEVER EXPECT VICTIMS to be the ones who speak out immediately. It took me years to even tell anyone, and that was after years of messed up life, years of wrong thinking about sex and life. Then when I was a 20 year old man, I saw my abuser again and the fear and paralyzing panic attacks came again. And I was no weak, namby pamby 20 year old. I was in top physical condition, competing in statewide powerlifting meets. I can not explain it. Not to this day. And so I stand with every single victim. She had absolutely no fault in this. Jack Schaap should be put in prison for life.
I used the words “weak on my part” because that is what I was accused of when I finally told people.
Of course an 11-year-old is weak compared to a grownup. I can’t believe people blamed you for being victimized. OK, I do believe it. I mean I’m sorry they blamed you. You were not to blame, either then or when you were 20.
It’s so horrible that you experienced this and were later blamed. The church MUST defend those who don’t have a voice.
Thank you. It has been a hard road.
Bob M, I am truly so very sorry for what you & others had to endure! In our sick society it is more accepted to abuse women than men. It’s not so much whether one case is worse than the other but that it has happened. Each case is equally bad for that person.
I have a husband (pastor) who is finally speaking out about this after 50 years of keeping it silent (except to me). He dealt with all the blame games and the thoughts that the IFB were not ready to accept what happened to him. Now, in our final years it’s not about his recovery but bringing attention to helping the recovery of others. AND we have to STOP the problem!
I’m so sorry – both for what happened and for how people reacted. For me, sometimes that’s as confusing as the assault – the voices of so-called loved ones saying, “It’s not a big deal, shut up and stop dwelling on it.” It makes an already painful situation much more painful and confusing.
I understand the freezing up, entirely. It just seems that other people don’t.
Thank you for standing with victims, for not encouraging victim-blaming or even silencing. Like captain_solo said, the silence of victims is understandable. Everyone heals differently. But silence on the part of accessories or “brothers/sisters in the Lord”? That’s damning.
It’s appalling that people expect children to be able to do much about abuse. When my husband was on the stand relating to the custody judge why his mom shouldn’t have his daughter, their lawyer attacked him!
“Why didn’t you tell someone? Why didn’t you go to the police? You are lying! An abused child would have told someone or someone would have reported your mother for the bruises.”
Um…he was child! In the 70’s and 80’s! When no teacher thought much of a child with some bruising! Was he supposed to call the police on his own mother?!? WTF!
OMG! If loose lips cut down on tithes and offerings, then God is being robbed!!!!
A friend of mine asked me why I wasn’t pointing the world to all the wonderful Christians in the world and all the good that they do. Instead, I was showing everyone links to Schaap’s trist with the teen. It’s because I believe that our job is not to raise up Christians and their good behavior. Raise up Christ, he never fails. When we put our trust in those who call themselves Christians, this kind of $hit happens. It’s never a Chritian’s duty to play dumb and act like all Christians are wonderful because they’re SO MUCH NOT LIKE US. Inevitably, you will turn out a rotten apple in your sacred house and then where are you? Trust Christ, expose sin.
To summarize: Put your faith in Christ, not in Christians (or in churches).
I agree.
But how can you ask others to put their trust in Jesus when Christians so often and publicly fail to do just that? I know what you are getting at, and you are right, but I am just so tired of Christians, especially in the act of evangelism, dismissing Christian behavior by telling people to not look at Christians, but Christ. Jesus commanded his followers to model the love and grace of God himself. I know you are not excusing it, the comment just sparked this thought in me 😆
I totally get what you’re saying. I totally mean for people to hold their mogs and other Christians accountable for predatory behavior. But in general, when I join a church, I’m not so enthralled with any man in the pulpit, that if he falls, that MY world is shattered and MY relationship with God is threatened.
*tryst
Yes, all is well citizens, go back to your fundie bunkers. Nothing to see here. Pay no attention to the propaganda against the IFB movement. In fact have special prayer meetings to pray for Brother schaap and the fine folks at FBCH. Pray that the Lord will give them another man of god just like the last two, only more so. A Man with a double portion of Hyles upon him, a man with double the portion of Schaap on his shoes.
Pray for this church that has enabled these men of god to rule over them without question. May they find another who will continue to bless them with the preaching they have become accustomed to.
/sarcasm
May God open the blinded eyes of these people. May they see that the pastor is not god, he is not God’s anointed and he should be held accountable, as all those who would hold leadership positions should. Most of all may they take their eyes off the pulpit, off the M-O-g and seek Christ. Sadly, unless God does a work of Grace, and opens their eyes they will return to the wallow and look for a Moses to guide them and speak to God for them.
It seems as though you took a page right out of Clarence Sexton’s playbook. He made one of those “pray for the Schaaps and Hyles Anderson but nevermind the actual child that was molested, and BTW, don’t criticize Hyles Anderson” speeches on Facebook.
http://www.facebook.com/pastorsexton
Interestingly, he very quickly removed the ability for the public to make comments on his post. I’m actually surprised he didn’t remove all the dissenting responses all together.
I hate all this “don’t tear down the church because they did the right thing” junk. They need to be called out publically. The only reason they responded the way they did IMHO was in because of recent media coverage of the IFB and the whole Joe Paterno deal. Otherwise I wouldn’t be surpised if it would have been swept under the rug all together.
There was a recent video clip someone linked to here of Clarence Sexton and Jack Schaap with their arms around each other, each gushing on and on about how great the other is. Sexton has a large and highly exposed backside to try to cover here.
WHOA! 😯
I just went back to look at that video of Sexton and Schaap slobbering all over each other, and it’s GONE!
In its place, there’s now a black box with the message, “This video is private.”
(It previously appeared in this page of comments:
http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2012/07/words-of-wisdom/ )
While saying on his facebook page that he loves Jack Schaap and is praying for him, blah, blah, Sexton seems to have been busy scrubbing the Internet of any evidence of his having appeared together with Schaap. How do you like them apples? 😯
In his article Rev Sexton says of Schaap: “gave up so much for a moment of pleasure.”
Clearly the good Rev. doesn’t “get” the fact that this was an issue of power over a young girl.
A forty five year married pastor cannot, -I repeat- cannot be seduced by a seventeen year old girl.
Most of the Fundies discussing this seem to be focusing on the adultery issue instead of the (in my view) much more serious offense of abuse of power.
I’m not interested in policing people’s personal sex lives. That’s a personal/family matter. Unless children are being abused, of course.
But a pastor using his power to exploit someone he is supposedly counseling is not just a personal matter. That deeply compromises the institutions that gave him that power in the first place. For a licensed counselor, such behavior would be illegal and cause for having the license revoked. For an unlicensed pastoral counselor, it may not be illegal, but it is deeply and irrevocably unethical, and it implicates the church that sanctioned and protected him as well as the pastor himself.
“Most of the Fundies discussing this seem to be focusing on the adultery issue instead of the (in my view) much more serious offense of abuse of power.”
That’s because for Fundies, adultery is Juicy Juicy Juicy (TM). Has to do with SEX.
And Fundies are just as screwed-up sexually as everybody else, just in a different direction.
*Christians Ah George, you hate me so.
Appropriately, I was just listening to the “Newsies” sound track this morning, and most of the songs are this theme: “No more Silence!”. This isn’t going away anytime soon.
Aaah, they think to themselves, if only we could control the media and the Internet and the FBI like we can control our church members . . . all would be well. Perhaps someday when we take over the U.S.A. and then the world such things will be possible. We could even annoint Jack Schaap as a one-world leader and he could leave a mark in everyone’s foreheads and make an image of himself and . . . oh wait, did we just say that out loud!?!
tee hee 😀
Tee hee hee hee.
Look, son. Drs. Schaap, Hyles, and Co., our great leaders and examples, have shown us the true purpose of women. They are beautiful objects of art and pleasure. Remember, whatever happens between you and them is all right until it becomes too obvious to hide. Then it is all the woman’s fault (along with Satan, counselor of all women).
The best part of it is that as long as you are a “man-o-Gawd”, all of the other moGs will rally around and protect you. The more bizarre the sin you preach against, the more they will love and protect.
Go. Sow. Let the little people reap. You have nothing to fear. You are invincible as long as you are THE PREACHER
The Taliban would agree.
AL’LAH’U AKBAR!!!!!
In listening to some of the sermons on YouTube, I get the feeling that the problem rests with the obsession to be soulwinning. Hyles denegrates serious theological study because we should be focused on soulwinning. Getting a solid theological education detracts from our one and only purpose. Therefore, if a pastor is a soulwinner, we should stay focused on that and not let a few pecadillos along the way distract us.
The emphasis therefore focuses on the very fact that we have brought down a great soulwinner, a great soldier for the Lord. Every woman therefore becomes an Eve, a seductress, someone who will bring down a great man of God. As with Eve in the Garden, the evil woman corrupts the good man. Therefore, we should forgive the Soulwinning Pastor and let him go about the Lord’s business because this is what is most important. The girl doesn’t matter because she was a seductress anyway, and she deserved what she got.
When I was in fundy circles, I can’t begin to count the number of times where husbands were not loyal to their wives, and the wives were the ones who got blamed because they failed to make their men happy. In a way, the fundy obsession with gays rests on this premise as well. If the woman is at fault, a gay spouse messes up this tidy formula. No matter how well she cooks and cleans, or puts on another coat of lipstick, the woman can’t please her man. The fault must therefore transfer to the man who is going after another man, and by their logic, the other man must give up his manhood to become a woman for the disloyal man.
It surely is amazing that Schapp was not able to fire what Hyles glibly refers to as the “Demon Board” in his sermons before other pastors.
Bob, this is just excellent and spot on… and that mentality infects many HAC-trained pastors; any sin is overlooked as long as one is going soul-winning and tithing.
Enough Money and you can get anything you want. And get away with anything.
Just in Christianese, the currency is “Souls Won to Christ(TM)” instead of dollars per se.
P.S. This is EXACTLY the counterattack Mike Warnke’s fanboys used on Cornerstone after Cornerstone exposed him as a complete fraud — “But He $aved Lot$ of $oul$!”
BobH…You stated, “The emphasis therefore focuses on the very fact that we have brought down a great soulwinner, a great soldier for the Lord”.
1. Isn’t a “GREAT” soulwinner one who is also right with God with other matters in his/her life? Can one be a “great” soulwinner yet continue in sin?
2. Wouldn’t “GREAT” soulwinners have people down the aisle every week? I mean, if a “GREAT” church sees people walk the aisle every week, then certainly the pastor of a “GREAT” church who was indeed a “GREAT” soulwinner himself would have added to that number, right?
3. I don’t know, but I would venture to say that Jack Schaap had not gone door-door soulwinning since he took on the pastorate…just a guess. Preaching and having “X” number of people walk an aisle after a message does not fit under the category of being a “GREAT” soulwinner.
Like in the olympics that just finished last week, while some athletes excelled in one competition or another, only the one that finished #1 in the Decathlon was crowned “The World’s Greatest Athlete”. I’m not sure what made him “great” (only in the minds of a few and of those who chose to elevate him to such status), but had he ever stepped down from the pulpit during his invitation to greet those who he led to the Lord during the week and introduce them to a personal worker as one he led to the Lord? I’ll answer (and just a guess again), but NO!
If a man has extramarital or premarital sex, it’s because his wife or girlfriend didn’t keep him happy. If a woman has extramarital or premarital sex, it’s because she’s a slut. Either way, it’s her fault.
Yes, I think that sums up the mentality. And you may be on to something with this insight that the problem with male-male couples is that there’s no woman to blame. And with female-female couples, we don’t know which woman we should blame, hay-men?
Here, let’s make Greg’s head explode. Fundies have an issue with gay males because they can’t wrap their head around the idea that sexuality is a continuum, not binary. Males are this way and like that. Women are that way and like this. Anything out of that norm is suspect and evil, by definition. Any feelings within themselves that do not fit that imposed norm are suppressed with malice, and by extension within others. Gay females are an aberration that clearly just need “a man”. With gay men, we can probably find a way to blame the mother.
Fundys can’t wrap their fingers around gay males because they trivialize what it really means to be gay. To say that being gay is a choice is to say that being gay is a whim. To admit that being gay is an orientation forces them to realize that there is something within the person’s makeup that attracts him to other men rather than to a woman.
Trivializing what it means to be gay allows these people to support reparative therapies. After all, if someone is doing something bad, all we have to do is to put him in the naughty spot or perhaps paddle him until we break his spirit. Admitting that being gay is an orientation forces people to deal with the situation on a more intellectual level. It doesn’t lend itself to easy solutions.
This mentality has always been with us. People have been forced to convert from one religion to another because they trivialize what it means to believe in something. If enough pressure is applied, the person will wise up and conform to the standard pattern. A person’s faith, if it is sincere, is part and parcel of the person’s entire identity. Rip that part out of him, and the person is broken. The same goes with being gay. Lots of people go through this reparative stuff, and they may actually believe that they can love a woman. However, they can’t keep this up forever, and pretty soon the person breaks.
Fundies don’t like to abandon their idea that gay is a choice, something that can be trivialized. And their error is that thinking people do discern the flawed mechanics behind this belief, especially when they have co-workers or family that come out as gay. They realize that there is something more than a choice.
The other conflict is that not everything that exists can be measured by the five senses. We don’t know for certainty what makes someone gay, but the lack of a clear answer does not equate that something doesn’t exist. Faith certainly can’t be measured by the five senses, and that is perhaps another fundy weakness. We measure faithfulness by the number of souls someone wins to the Lord, or by the amount of service one gives to the church, or by the amount of money someone gives. These are all external things that fundies use to measure faith, but it is not faith itself.
I could go on and on with this, but I think that I have proved my point.
“Gay females are an aberration that clearly just need “a man”. With gay men, we can probably find a way to blame the mother.”
I would like to point out that “Hawt Lez Action” is a popular form of pornography among straight males.
Loose hips sink pastors.
Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha. 😈
Win.
😯 😯 😆
I misread this comment several times while scrolling through the posts. Finally I got it!
King David and Paul were murderers and god chose these “great” men to write a large part of the bible, so let’s give Jack a break.
🙄
While we’re at it, let’s see what Charles Manson has to say …
Paul was beheaded for his faith. I’d be relieved if Jack got such a break as that to prove his faith….
David and Paul suffered for their sins: Paul with blindness and beheading, and David with the loss of the child engendered in his sin — not to mention the whole “you will not build my Temple” privilege. Both of them repented, accepting whatever punishment God meted out as being just.
Not seeing that in Schaap. In fact, it looks like he’d have kept going on with his adultery/pedophilia and only stopped because he was exposed. If he takes responsibility for his actions, pleads guilty to whatever charges brought against him, and accepts whatever punishment is meted out, then he might earn the “break” you want us to give him.
A-freakin-mazing. Just simply A-freakin-mazing. That is the 3rd or fourth time in the past few days that I have seen Jack Schaap, David and the Apostle Paul mentioned in the same blog posts.
They should not even be mentioned in the same breath.
Not only is Jack Schaap not even remotely close to either of those great men of God, but he is so far down the ladder, there is probably only one person in the Bible I would liken him to, and that is Amnon in 2 Sam 13. Maybe there will be an Absalom?
How was Paul’s possible blindness a consequence of sin? Could it not have been the result of a genetic condition? Perhaps a failed medical treatment for another condition? I don’t recall anything in the Bible stating certainly that he was blind (although that’s the popular conjecture). And how was his beheading a result of his own sin? He referred to his own death as an “offering,” and in the OT when the offering system was introduced, the offering was done willingly by the giver, and the gift was to be spotless.
Well, if I had read this post before commenting, I would not have felt the need to post…
Wasn’t talking about the thorn. Was talking about being blinded by Christ’s glory and having to be led into the city to be healed. Rather humiliating in a proud man like Paul, yes?
Is the Bible even clear that Paul’s “thorn” was sight related? Whatever the assumption, the purpose of the problem would be speculative
This has gotten completely ridiculous. Stop comparing Schaap and others like him to David (and Paul, though this is the first time I’ve heard someone add him to the list).
David didn’t raise up a cult to worship himself and his own teachings. Although David was a sinner he still sought to follow after God, not after his favorite famous teachers. When David sinned, and was confronted by Nathan about it, he REPENTED, he didn’t minimize it or try to say it was mostly Bathsheba’s fault. And still he was punished for his sin, which David accepted as just, again not trying to minimize his sin or insisting that he was being persecuted.
David was a man after God’s own heart. Schaap, both by his recently discovered crimes and by his past attitudes, actions, and teachings IS NOT. Paul was a servant of God. Schaap only served himself.
I think Mark was just employing sarcasm in the same vein as Darrell’s post.
I’m just curious because every joke and bit of sarcasm here has been presented as serious truth and “gospel” elsewhere.
look up Poe’s law, it has never been proven false by Darrell, every hyperbolic satire he can dream up has already been expressed seriously by a fundy – its funny except for being so sad.
you are correct, sir
God killing an innocent baby to punish King David is not an image I want to dwell on.
Oops, sorry Mark. I completely missed the little face rolling its eyes below your post. I’ve just been driven crazy by the fundies who have been seriously urging me to compare Schaap to righteous Biblical figures.
Consider the preceeding post my rant against them instead. 😛
Herein lies the problem. Stop comparing him to David & Paul. These were really men of God, and yes, were severely punished. And, paul committed his bad acts prior to his conversion. David basically lost his family over what he did. His own son turned against him, and he lost the child Bathsheba was going to have. You ppl that believe this way are nuts! Jack Schaap was a lunatic & a false prophet. Read his lunatic books sometime. That is, if you want to be dumber, and regret those lost moments of your life.
on a fundy site recentl;y I say an article called “The Sin Of Bathsheba” which claimed that it was HER fault that David wanted to have sex with her. She shouldn’t have been bathing at midday where a man could see her and be roused to passion.
I will try and find that article and post a link.
In Fundystan it is ALWAYS the woman’s fault.
even in the Bible
I’ve heard that sort of preaching too. The thing is, God didn’t say it. It’s extraBiblical surmising.
here is the link;
http://www.momof9splace.com/sinof.html
of course good Christian women are not aroused by seeing a handome well built man….
Apparently the eyeroll wasn’t sarcasm tag enough.
I’ll agree with that. Sigh.
“He slightly stumbled. He merely tripped. He slipped a little, lost his balance and inadvertently penetrated a seventeen-year-old.”
I imagine Jack S walking really fast while Yakety Sax plays in the background.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnHmskwqCCQ
I had just gotten around to being serious again, and then you post this!
Haven’t laughed this hard in a while. My fundy Co-worker, who’s at Fundy U, asked what I was laughing at. I didn’t have the heart to crush her Fundy worked with this. Something more tame perhaps.
Dear Apathetic or whatever:
What froth-happy, gospel hymn is sung to this tune? I’ve been away from BJU too long to recall …
Christian Socialist
This was a tactic used in my last church. Something happened regarding the pastor and a church member, where the pastor was told “no” several times (not sexual). The couple really disliked the pastor’s tactics and discussed this with him. The response from the pastor was, “Don’t start trouble in this church.”
Also, I strongly disliked my SS class. Our teacher would start class 20 minutes late, lecture for 20 minutes, then let us out 20 minutes early. I stopped going to SS, really because we weren’t allowed to attend any other class (true Fundy church), and the pastor called me. I told him the truth, and he responded with, “I think you have a pride issue.” 🙄
*Something happened regarding the pastor and a church couple …
This happened in the Fundy Lite church my husband and I were married in which is located in WI. The new school principal had an “indiscretion” with a high school student. We don’t know the details and we don’t know if she was 17 or 18. Her father was in a coma so there was no protection for her. He was disciplined in front of the church he and his wife were told to get counseling. He was fired and I’m sure was headed to another church just like all the others.
We were also told that we shouldn’t gossip about it or we were told to shut up about it.
This same pastor prayed in front of our peers that my husband and I would get right with God and show up at church every time the doors were opened. But a sex predator for a principal was protected.
@Mominator: I’m so sorry that you went through this. I hope you find healing in Jesus Christ.
Darrell, what you wrote rings so true in what Fundies say too often. Or even non-Fundies when a favorite pastor “falls.” 😥
Many times as a college student, a staff member, and a missionary, I have been given the same command, “Don’t talk about issues within fundamentalism.”
To talk about fundamentalism in college was to be “all zeal with no knowledge” or to be “trying to figure out whether Adam and Eve had belly buttons when you should be out soulwinning.”
To talk about fundamentalism on staff was to be disloyal and divisive.
And to talk about fundamentalism as a missionary is to violate my supporting church’s autonomy and to subvert their pastors leadership.
But any movement that refuses to look in the mirror and honestly evaluate itself in light of the perfect Law of Liberty will not last long. Either God or the devil will make sure of that.
Dear Altar Ego:
This reminds me of the line that the Jehovah’s pulled. Having informed their people to expect Jesus’ return in ’75, what did they do as that day approached?
Alright you speculators — NEVER MIND about 1975. You get out there and bang on those doors!
What you describe is an extremely unhealthy dynamic. Issues NEED to be discussed, and people shouldn’t take ‘no’ for an answer. That is cheap and it is fundamentally dishonest.
Christian Socialist
Any church or group that discourages questions or discussions of its beliefs is automatically suspect. And your observation, Altar Ego, just goes to show that fundies have created an excuse to try to keep Christians from questioning their movement no matter what point they are in their lives. I noticed the same kind of thing when I was a kid in an IFB church, then a Bible college student, then a staff person at that college.
How stable can a theological position be if the people that hold to it are terrified of it being questioned even by first year Bible college students? Or even by young children?
I do hope other recognize that your post is satire. I cannot tell you the pain that this unexcusable sin has caused just my family. This was their pastor that they thought was a godly man. The girl was a close (not girl friend) of my grandson. They knew each other from the time they were in the nursery. They attended school together. I pay for that girl and her family. I pray for the other girls who undoubtedly lured into his trap and their families. I pray for all the people, especially teens who attened youth conferences and looked up to a false “man of God.” I pray for every parent who has sent their daughter on one of the Sunday school buses and know must find out if anything happened to their little girl. I pray that all will come forward to speak, for I do not believe that a 54 year old pastor, married for over 30 years suddenly decides to have sex with a teenage girl. I pray for the ministry of every good church that it would be a lighthouse for the cause of Christ, and not another stumbling block. I pray for his family that must now endure being associated with his sin. And I pray for him, that he will man up, confess every misdeed and take the rightful punishment. I also pray that all who are worried about the cause of Christ would not only shed light on this wrong doing, but actually work for the cause of Christ.
In this kind of sexual abuse, as in most instances of sexual abuse, there are victims, and then there are secondary victims. The secondary victims are the ones who are so close to the victim, or at times even the predator, that they are unbelievably hurt and their whole world is turned upside down. I myself was a victim of clergy sexual abuse long ago, and the predator was my in-law’s pastor. You and your family are secondary victims as were my in-laws. I said a prayer for you and yours. Sad you have to go through this; no one deserves this, any more than anyone deserves to be a primary victim.
Thank you for your prayers. I do not attend or belong to FBH, ;but I ache for my family members that are there. I am blessed to be in a solid church that is fundamental in the sense that it believes the fundamentals of the Bible and is also loving and caring. It is an inner city church with outreach to the community.
“And ye shall know them by their fruits”
I know I’m preaching to the choir, but should anyone really be surprised? When I see a pastor filled with hate, arrogance, obsession of sex, etc. I know that something is going on or is primed to go on. The same “virtues” that many circles of Christianity value are the very things that Jesus criticized the Pharisees for doing. I think we, as a collective church, have long failed in admiring worldly traits in our leaders, instead of the love, humility, sobriety (of thought), and peacefulness that were once requisite for Christian leadership.
Dear SFL Reader:
The incongruity between a pastor’s fiery condemnation of other’s sins while bathing their own sins the licentious waters of forgetfulness is clear to all. But for now, that must be set aside to focus elsewhere.
Equally clear is the injunction for forgiveness and full acceptance when confession is followed by true repentance. But for now, that also must be set aside to focus elsewhere.
Temporarily setting aside ecclesial discipline, there is the too seldom discussed matter of Biblical qualification for sacral office [Ac 20:28; 1Ti 3:1-7; Ti 1:7; 2:7]. The question of church discipline [which Calvin showed to be a mark necessary to the true church] aside, the Bible clearly closes the office of overseer to those lacking sound judgment and character. On the authority of God’s word, those who cannot or will not control themselves, or who have a poor reputation have no call to church office. And however large or ‘successful’ [on worldly terms] they seem to be, such churches do not follow the Spirit’s lead.
When they are discovered, are the Hyles and Schapps of this world defrocked? Are their ministerial credentials revoked or not?
Remember — forgiveness and acceptance upon confession and true repentance are non-issues. Those are a ‘given.’
The issue concerns the Biblical doctrine of ordination. Remember – you cannot be a church while you refuse to practice a Biblically obedient polity – one that is ruled by Jesus’ royal word.
Christian Socialist
“When they are discovered, are the Hyles and Schapps of this world defrocked? Are their ministerial credentials revoked or not?”
Christy Sock, I’m guessing from the fact that you asked this question that you are not a Baptist.
The problem is that in Baptist churches there isn’t really such a thing as ministerial credentials. Anybody who says God has called him to be a Baptist preacher pretty much is one.
Baptist churches call their own pastors, independent of any other body. That’s especially true of the Independent Fundamental Baptist churches. In most congregations, the members vote on who will be the pastor, but in some, a board or deacons or something similar makes the decision. My understanding is that if a Baptist chuch somewhere voted for a dog to be its pastor, nobody outside the church would have any authority to say that the Reverend Doctor* Doberman wasn’t qualified for the job.
If another Baptist church wants to hire Jack Schaap and David Hyles as co-pastors today, nobody can do anything to stop it.
—
* Jack Hyles awarded him an honorary doctorate, of course.
Did he award the Doberman the doctorate before or after he strangled him?
Dear Big Gary, D.P. (Doctor of Perambulation):
You are, of course entirely correct. People should think about your points!
Christian Socialist
Don’t forget Hyles did give an honorary doctorate to horse, the same year that they gave one to the chairman of the music department at another college. What an honor!
The person you’re referring to was Don DeGraw of Maranatha Baptist Bible College. I served on the faculty with him. At lunch one day I was able to ask him how it felt to receive his honorary doctorate right after the horse received his. Don calmly answered “You had to watch where you stepped” aluding to the fact that the horse deficated right on the platform and everyone else had to step around it.
The contempt that Hyles had for higher education is astounding, especially for one who actually ran an institution of higher education. I got to spend a day at HAC, and to even equate that instution with a serious institution of higher education is a joke. BJU tried to keep up with what the better universities did; Hyles and those who have followed couldn’t care less.
(My footnote was an attempt at a sly allusion to Dr. Oatburner Dobbins, AQHA.)
The contempt that Hyles had for higher education is astounding, especially for one who actually ran an institution of higher education.
Both Thomas Edison and Ray Kroc (the guy who built McDonald’s) also had “astounding contempt for higher education.” In both Edison’s & Kroc’s cases, they were self-educated men who’d made good with little formal education and hated anyone with more formal education than themselves. Could Hyles have been a similar dynamic?
There is an kernel of an idea that is touch upon in your post – you are describing “the Church” in a way that includes historical perspective that would require a more eclectic viewpoint than is common in much of southern rural America – lets be honest friends, that is the core, the root if you will of the disfunctional group that is Independent Baptist Fundamentalism in America – the yankee churches demonstrate that real crazy can be often imitated but never duplicated.
Back to your post, the lack of real church discipline is what makes independent fundamental churches a good example of what is outside the historic definition of the church body as described in the New Testament, and by the history of the church. In fact over the centuries one could argue that the lack of self-government (as a practice, not just polity) has been the cause of many of the aberrations
Fundies are simply a current cultural expression of the phenomenon, encouraged by the ruggedly individual nature of Americanism, and the deceitfulness of the desperately wicked human heart. You can’t have self-government without self-governors – even if morally, philosophically, biblically, or any other way the independent local assembly model is the right way, in order to function it requires adherence to a number of other tenets (among them the ones you mentioned) in my opinion the culture of fundamentalism has been twisted so much by sociopaths, power hungry con men, perverts, and arrogant blowhards, that I think its irresponsible at this point to operate that way since the whole congregational model of government has been corrupted for so long.
Since these men get a pass, their entire ability to discipline the membership should be gone, yet it is not, so that tells you the foundation is false, the emperor has no clothes, and he is unwilling to put them back on.
Whenever some fundy complains about plurality, elder rule/lead, denominationalism or any other method churches use to enforce the accountability of leadership will fall upon my deaf ear, and I will wonder what child-raping skeletons are in their closet that they fear anyone having the ability to come alongside them in the biblical model of exhortation.
Bravo Solo, brilliant. After our pastor misappropriated $30k in funds, our deacon board begged and pleaded with him to get it right. What did he do? He changed the church bi-laws so that no one could ever question him or bring him before the church for discipline because “I only answer to God.”
Dear MKXcomm:
Unbelievable! But who approved the bylaws in the first place? Were not the bylaws originally adopted by congregational decision? Why should the pastor’s revision stand? And what Biblical precedent establishes that the pastor’s judgment should not be questioned? How does this practice the Biblical injunction to live in mutual submission?
Why should we believe that this pastor lives obediently to God’s word?
Christian Socialist
Like I have said over and over, “When one is only accountable to God… they soon become the only god they are accountable to.”
Dear captain_solo:
Thanks for a great and insightful reply!
You wrote: ‘Fundies are simply a current cultural expression of the phenomenon, encouraged by the ruggedly individual nature of Americanism, and the deceitfulness of the desperately wicked human heart.’
I reply: ‘Behold the worldliness, secularity and heresy [three ways to see the same thing] of America’s ‘Christianist’ [fundamental] ‘church. This easy conjunction of heretical, American culture with the lingo of flag-draped ‘Christianism’ FUNCTIONS ‘as’ our state religion, without formal tapestry/claims to BE a state religion.
I considered referencing elder plurality but opted to focus on Biblical qualification for sacred office. Your observations re: practice/results of church rule are [of course] entirely correct.
Ac 14:23; They appointed elders in every church.
Ti 1:5; Appoint elders in every city — as I directed you.
Ac 20:17; Hard to gather the elders if you don’t have elders.
Ac 21:18; Hard to gather the elders if you don’t have elders.
Ja 5:14; Hard to call for the elders if you don’t have elders.
1Pe 5:1; Hard to exhort the elders if you don’t have elders.
1Pe 5:5; Hard to submit to elders if you don’t have elders.
If our local, independent church received a letter from Paul saying, ‘gather your elders at 8:30 am on Sunday so that I can speak to them about some matter,’ what would they do? And what might Paul say?
Didn’t I give you the example of appointing elders in every church? Didn’t I first instruct and then remind Titus to follow my example by appointing elders in every city? Was Luke’s record to Theophilus not circulated among you? Did my letter to Titus not come to you also? I stationed elders in every place. Was that lost on you? What happened that you have not followed my instruction to all the churches?
I believe that Paul would tell these church members that they need to return to these texts which outline his practice. Paul might well say:
‘When I was stoned and left for dead at Lystria, do you think I felt like going to Derbe the next day [Ac 14:19-20]? Why do you suppose I did that, if not to preach and make disciples [Ac 14:21], to strengthen and encourage them [Act 14:22], to pray and fast, to commend them to the Lord, and to appoint elders in every church [Ac 14:23]?
I can hear Paul asking, ‘wouldn’t the fact that Barnabas and installed elders in every church without exception tell you something!’
I think that Paul would say, ‘if you’re going to call yourselves a Bible church, you need to discuss and implement these things in every church without exception – just as Barnabas and I did, just as I taught Titus.
As I see it, churches should not leave this for pastors to decide. Members should act themselves, first approaching and explaining this position to the pastor. They should make it clear that the pastor is most welcome to stay in the current position, but that as a church, they have consciously determined to follow the instruction and example that is witnessed clearly and repeatedly in Scripture.
They should make very clear their hope that the pastor will cooperate fully with the congregation in this matter, and that it is the intention of the congregation to stand by the pastor as a congregation.
But if the pastor cannot or will not abide Biblical instruction on church rule, then the congregation should inform the pastor that they desire to part on the most amiable terms possible, that it is their intention to see that the pastor’s needs are cared for as the congregation makes the transition to elder plurality. They should make clear their intention to pray for, love, and financially support the pastor for a reasonable time [say 6 months], as he makes arrangements to serve another church. The pastor’s inability to cooperate with the church in implementing Biblical church rule is a sign of God’s leading for pastor to seek out another part of the vineyard to fulfill his calling.
As a man of faith, the pastor needs to trust God to lead and provide for him and his family.
Christian Socialist
That’s assking a lot out of pre-programmed sheeple who have spent their whole lives in Churches where the only example they have is the ONE man rule. It’s hard to ask folks who have only ever been bottle fed to stand fast against the only form of church they have ever known.
And I agree with every word of what you have posted.
It’s time for these churches to WAKE-UP! The only thing that will wake them is for the Lord to open their eyes and show them. Until then I’m afraid the Church in America is doomed to follow in the way of Rip Van Winkle.
Dear Don:
I agree with every word of what YOU have posted. Especially, I share your assessment of the fate of the church unless it begins to act.
That is PRECISELY why it is imperative that the broader Christian community must open dialogue with the fundamentalist family of churches immediately.
The grievances under discussion are neither few nor light. They are also longstanding. These congregations have evaded responsibility too long to claim or to be recognized as a church of the book. They stand to be confronted with and corrected by that reality.
All of our congregations stand to be corrected on some points. But these congregations are maligning the Name and Glory of the risen Lord. On our profession of faith in Jesus Christ, it is impermissible that they should continue to do so without our challenge.
The Scriptures speak clearly on the matter we have discussed. Erring congregations stand to be confronted on these points with these Scriptures.
It is also imperative that this be done not from without so much as within those churches themselves. It helps nothing to decry what fundamentalist churches do from without. They will circle their wagons. Their masters will animate them to fight on his behalf.
Instead those churches must themselves be entered and the word proclaimed there [see Paul in Acts 17].
Scripture gives examples of the proclamation of God’s will and word in confrontational situations. Moses and Pharaoh, Samuel and Saul, Elijah and Ahab, Elijah and the Ba’alite prophets, David and Goliath, Nathan and David. YHWH himself confronts Israel and demands an account. Jesus likewise confronted the power of evil throughout his ministry, but most notably in his temptation and in his passion.
This observation fell flat when I raised it earlier. But such confrontation and such struggle has the character of an exorcism. It also carries the potential to deliver from evil power. This work is neither easy nor enjoyable. It is difficult and potentially dangerous.
But it is imperative that this work be done.
Evil often masquerades as light. When it does, evil power must be first exposed, then rebuked, and then bound in Jesus’ Name.
We have much preparatory work of thinking, studying, growing, discernment and walking with God to do.
It is time to begin.
Christian Socialist
You’d be surprised at the answers to that. Some believe that the one pastor doctrine is the only way church can have strong leadership. They say that the multiple elders are associate pastors under the one senior pastor(and as a side note associate pastors are mostly useless in IFB churches cause they are people the church members would likely never vote for to be the next pastor except in the case where nepotism is acceptable. At least it comes of that way in my short experience.) Another argument that I have heard used for one pastor is “Anything with more than one head is a freak. What’s so funny is that it’s sounds Catholic in that it comes of as sounding like Christ needs a human vicar in his place as head. I’ve even seen it said by Larry Atkins(who I think has been featured indirectly here) says that when the Bible talks about multiple elders it talking about one pastor over one local assembly. Some seem to genuinely believe that one pastor is God’s plan but they fail to see the flaws and just interpret what they see in the Bible according to previously learned teaching which everyone may do to some extent.
One of my friends made up a slogan about this:
One God, One man , One Woman, One Church(the local kind), One Pastor!-Heyman(added by me).
Dear Phil:
Thanks for the reply.
The ‘strong leadership’ line can be debunked in two words: Stalin. Hitler. In place of ‘strong’ leadership, Christians advocate for Biblical leadership, including elder plurality on the Biblical grounds already noted.
As presented, Larry Atkins’ remarks attack Paul’s instruction and practice in and for all the churches. In turn this refuses Jesus’ authority and rule in the church, substituting man-made beliefs as the true head of the ‘church.’
So often as it is made, the claim of these leaders/churches to be Biblical is to be refuted.
Christian Socialist
Or until the Government shuts them down HARD as frauds, RICO rackets, and menaces to society.
I doubt anything that dramatic will happen.
But some churches play fast and loose with their tax-exempt status. Someday there may be a crackdown on that.
If churches had to pay the taxes other corporations pay, many of them would be in financial trouble.
Unfortunately, I have a feeling that when churches start losing their tax exempt status because some don’t follow the rules, then all will lose their tax exempt status – or at least have it become verrrry difficult to keep it.
Dear Beth, Big Gary and Headless Unicorn:
Loss of tax exempt status would not be the end of the church. Years ago, Episcopal lay theologian William Stringfellow maintained that the church should reject tax exempt status for the purpose of practicing tax resistance.
In part, Stringfellow’s thinking was that the existing arrangement of state/church compromise allowed too much influence over the church.
Moreover, by forfeiting that status, the church would be less entangled with the world, and would have more freedom to minister to those on the margins of society. And in so doing, the church would walk closer to her lord.
Christian Socialist
I don’t know about other churches, but my church is struggling financially. Staff have lost their jobs or had their hours cut back. Many things have been cut back or eliminated. The latest is there is no longer a bulletin on Sundays. We are a church in the inner city. The exemption from taxes goes back to boboca; days, which is why Peter didn’t think they had to pay a tax. G%@ pdd’S bEKA BOOK DIVISION LOST THEIR TAX EXEMPT STATUS A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO. tHEY WERE MAKING A HUGE PROFIT OFF THE BACKS OF PARENTS STRUGGLING TO AFFORD SENDING THEIR CHILDREN TO cHRISTIAN SCHOOLS. tHE irs IS WATCHING.
Not all IBC’s have pastors that are all powerful. My former church (and current church) both have strong boards of elder voted into their position by the people of the church. In my former church (I moved to another state) the pastor demanded to be the sole authority and to make some radical changes to our Christian school. A vote was taken by the church and he was told he could either continue as pastor with no changes or he could leave. He left. The church called another man who understood the bibical pattern for a church that provided a system of checks and balances to provide wise, bibical direction without any position being the sole authority. I hope this will encourage you and others. Not all IFB churches are full of blind, deaf people who have lost their ability to think and follow the Bible.
@ Tired
The real beef isn’t with individual churches per se. It’s with the IFB movement itself. The Movement lends itself to enabling abuse, error and elevating men of lesser character to its pulpits. The IFB movement has set the templates that most churches us and especially in the rusted buckle of the Bible Belt, here in the south, the rural IFB reeks with pastoral abuse and demagoguery.
That goes back to Lord Acton’s axiom: “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.”
*Click on my name and it will take you to an article I did on power,corruption and the pulpit.
Dear Tired:
God bless you for striving so hard to be faithful in the inner city!
In my opinion, we are undergoing transition. In 100 years — even in 50 or 25 years, the churches that survive will look and do ministry very, very differently.
You may know this, but for the first 2-3 centuries, we never used the word ‘church’ to describe a building. ‘Church’ meant gathering. And wherever God’s people live, they can gather.
In coming decades, churches will learn to do many things very differently. And again, this is not all bad. My heart goes out for your struggling congregation, and I will pray for you.
Give God thanks for the congregation you mentioned that stood by its guns and invited the former pastor to stay on ITS terms, rather than bowing to HIS. There are problems with which a church can live. More domineering pastors are the LAST thing that we need.
Christian Socialist
Of course they want everyone to keep silent and not make a big deal of this, they are probably hiding a bunch more secrets that they don’t want people looking too closely at.
I sort of compare this situation with say, a star running back who is a arrested for DUI, domestic battery, assault, etc. The rabid fan intellectually understands that this person has done wrong and likely should be punished, but crap…we REALLY need him for the game Sunday…so screw the moral/ethical consideration (at least ’till the off-season).
Or the famous actor/actress, or the famous musician, or the famous politician… unfortunately, you see this kind of behavior a lot.
“I own ferrets and assault rifles even when they’re banned…
I get Community Service no matter what the crime…
Because I’m a *CELEBRITY*!!!!!!!”
— some country music video I saw on TNN once
(Video went on to show what made them *CELEBRITIES*:
“I ate the biggest plate of dog turds on Fear Factor — I’m a *CELEBRITY*!!!!”
“I was the Third Gold Digger on the left with the BIG boobs on Who Wants to Marry a 90-year-old Billionare — I’m a *CELEBRITY*!!!”
“I got on Jerry Springer — I’m a *CELEBRITY*!!!!!”)
Yes! And to me THAT is being worldly. The IFB calls you worldly if you like CCM or wear trendy clothes or get a tattoo, but they completely miss stuff like this which is actually TRULY being WORLDLY: caring more about celebrities or money or power or influence than for innocent and helpless people being hurt or getting justice.
Dear Doc37172:
Nailed it!
And as you, pastor’s wife and other have pointed out, this is the very epitome of secularity.
Temples of Tinsel, Temples of Unbelief. Let them hear the word of the Almighty.
Christian Socialist
Sometimes it’s the worms within the ship that eat away to its demise. Other times it’s a construction of cheap steel and shoddy workmanship. Any of these would apply in this situation.
What schaap did is inexcusable, unconscionable, irresponsible, immoral, and (pending investigation) illegal. He should never stand behind a pulpit again.
But please have a little mercy on the people who got their hearts broken. The people of FBC did nothing wrong. (With the obvious exception of anyone who knew about the abuse and didn’t speak.) The students of HAC didn’t do anything wrong. It’s different than it used to be there. There’s a group of kids who really, sincerely want to reach the world, and though they intend to continue the mission (Charlie Mike, any Hac-ers out there? 😉 ) they are doing it with broken hearts.
Dissent/comments welcomed. I know I’ll get plenty. Just have a little mercy.
Just to address the question of “temptress or victim?” I believe that she is some of both. Read through before you react. Is she a victim of a powerful man? ABSOLUTELY. BUT – when I was 16, I knew to keep my hands off married men. And one doesn’t text pictures to their rapist. But still, she is a victim, if simply because of her status as a minor and his position of power.
I don’t think you know what you’re saying. The amount of power a pastor can hold over a young person who has basically been told he carries God’s words to her is very strong. This is particularly more so if he’s counselling her.
And, also, even if she wasn’t a victim (and I’m sure she was) doesn’t mean she was a temptress!
How often did you think about getting your hands on a married man (as a 16 yr old)? I’ll bet not often. I’ll bet she didn’t think about it either, until this married man SEDUCED her into believing he needed her (but really just her sex) more than she needed to hold on to her morals. Seduction is top down; the stronger does the seducing, the weaker is the victim.
To Beth D. and boymom:
Thanks for your input….looking back, I used the wrong word. Temptress is not what I meant at all. I agree with both of you that he must have been the initiator. Should she have known better? Yes. But do I “blame” her? Absolutely not. There is none righteous…and no one can say that they would have done any differently until they have been there. He should have guarded his mind & heart better and been accountable.
Thanks for helping me sort out my own thoughts on this. I think discussing it proves the point that I was trying to make….that there are still tough questions, things we don’t know, and that hearts are unsettled as we try to think it all through and try to make sure we avoid such tragedy in our own lives.
I’m 48 and my wife assures me that no 16 girl is going to sexually attracted to a 54yo guy without some coercion on the man’s part. Stop the partial justification Sadie
Doc, your wife is right. I’d find it very hard to believe there wasn’t serious manipulation involved.
Heck, I’m 38, and by and large, *I* don’t find the average 54 year old man attractive.
PP, did you just call me ugly? LOL
I didn’t want to say anything Bob, but… 😎
LOL 😆
Different people find different things attractive. Many girls and young women are attracted to men who are rich and/or powerful (compared to the girl in question), no matter what they look like.
Personally, I’m disgusted by mean, egotistical, virulently misogynistic sociopaths, so I don’t think Jack-O and I will be getting together, but hey, maybe that personality type is a turn-on for some people.
Regardless of all that, I’m almost Jack Schaap’s age, and if a gorgeous, sexy teenager invites me to have sex with her, I’m going to say no. I would think the reasons would be obvious, but recent events argue otherwise, so here are a few of them:
1. There’s no future for such a relationship, and I don’t want to ruin her life and mine.
2. I’m a grown man. My taste runs to women, not girls. And if I go to bed with a 16-year-old, what are we going to talk about afterward? Justin Bieber? The Twilight saga?
3. I’m married, and I plan to stay married.
4. I don’t want to get a sexually-transmitted disease.
5. It probably wouldn’t be good sex, in terms of technique alone.
6. I don’t want to go to jail.
7. My friends and colleagues would all treat me like the fool I was.
8. What would I tell my family? What would I tell her family?
There are many more reasons, but aren’t those enough?
LOL Persnickety…way to dent the male ego in one swoop 🙂
I still say a 54yo guy being involved with a 16yo has issues that go way beyond ordinary sexual temptation
No reasonable person is asking ‘temptress or victim’. Must be a HAC thing.
If a woman jumped on my husband’s desk with a bow on her hoo-ha, I don’t know that he wouldn’t act, because he’s only human. I can hope and reasonably expect that he would not act, because he’s a really decent married guy.
But if a 16-year-old girl jumped on his desk with a bow on her hoo-ha, I would expect him to run, not walk, away, preferably screaming loudly. What I’m saying is that I don’t care how much of a temptress (really??) she was, I don’t care if she carried on with every 18-year old boy in the church, he was a married man with children her age. This may seem like an odd distinction, and possibly only tempered by the times we live in, but I honestly expect 50-year-old guys to keep their hands off of teenage girls.
It’s not a hoo-ha, it’s a vagina.
If a woman of any age jumped on my husband’s desk with a bow anywhere on her person, I know how he would react: he’d get the hell outta there, and not just because he knows he’d never sleep with me again, but because he’s a good man, and I fully trust him to do the right thing!
Sadie, other than how many more victims/incidents there are and how much more sexual immorality is in that place, what other “tough questions” remain. The questions the people of FBC and HAC should be asking THEMSELVES are, why am I blinded by these men? and am I indeed in a cult?
I hope they will ask themselves, “Why did we follow men like Schaap and Hyles in the first place? Why did we worship men instead of God, and let those men write their own doctrine to replace the Gospel of Christ?
But I fear that most of them will never ask such things.
Ultimately, people like Schaap don’t get to have it both ways. They can’t beat the “man is the leader of the home” drum night and day. . .and then blame the woman when they get caught with their pants down. I don’t care whether you’re talking about the secular world or the church world, being in authority means taking responsibility. Curiously, in many IFB circles the emphasis seems to be on the former rather than the latter.
Being a grownup means taking responsibility.
If a 54-year-old woman were having sex with a 17-year-old boy she was supposedly counseling, I would have exactly the same opinion about it.
Its funny how fundys think that a 16 year old can be a temptress, but yet an 18 year old has to go to a good fundy college with a big book full of rules for them to live by for 4 years because they are apparently still too immature to be able to go to college without being told what to wear, when to go to bed, and who and when they can date, hold hands or kiss.
Sadie – I have read every comment on this post today and no one is attacking the people of FBC for being “the people of FBC”. Any attack has been and will be reserved for people who knew things and covered them up, tell us to ignore the girl, tell us to focus on Schaap’s good works, tell us we are harming the cause of Christ, tell us we are bitter, etc etc.
Dear Sadie,
I agree with Scorpio’s point about where our wrath is directed. And I do feel for idealistic, innocent, and sheltered people who attend FBC and who truly want to live for God.
The problem is that God is clear in His Word about how He wants us to follow Him. He tells us to be humble and meek and gentle. The picture that FBCH presents to the world to outsiders looking in is one of arrogance and pride — the claims of being such a great church, the wild cheering when speakers are introduced, the self-righteous scorn of people who don’t hold the same standards, even the constant claims of having the biggest Sunday School. Why all the stress on being the biggest and best?
One can believe with all one’s heart that one is living for Jesus, but one can still be riddled through and through with Pharisaical pride. I think of Saul before his conversion, thoroughly convinced that he was serving God by zealously persecuting Christians until God abruptly knocked him off his feet and set him straight.
I hesitated in writing this, and I hope you can understand the heart behind my words. I don’t know the inner motivations of the folks at FBCH, but I did want to share that God wants to destroy ALL our idols until HE ALONE is our focus and we rely fully on His glorious grace and not our own works, our strict standards, our fame in the community, our beautiful building, or anything else that we take pride in that is not the cross of Christ.
Dear pastor’s wife:
One can believe with all one’s heart that one is living for Jesus — Prov 14:12.
Arrogance and pride — the claims, the wild cheering, the self-righteous scorn — Jer 9:24
God wants to destroy ALL our idols until HE [rules] ALONE — 2Co 10:3-5
Thanks, sister!
Christian Socialist
Dear Sadie H:
I realize that you’re taking some heat on this one, so I want to frame my remarks in a way that won’t make your way harder. That said, there are some matters that seriously need to be addressed.
First, I [personally] find it incomprehensible that this church would go through this first with Mr. Hyles, and then again with Mr. Schaap. It begs to be asked, ‘good GRIEF — did you people learn absolutely NOTHING from Mr. Hyles’ fiasco? Does it not occur to you that something isn’t right here, that you need to put SOME mechanisms into place to establish accountability?
Second, even if these points were missed first time around, doesn’t this present fiasco tell people that it is now essential that there be full and open conversation [seasoned by the example of Biblical grace from those who are mature in the faith]?
If First expects the respect and support of God’s people everywhere, it has no choice but to host a time of very serious examination. If First will not do this, it essentially authorizes others to assume that First intends to repeat this pattern blithely, and ad infinitum.
If First wants any witness to Jesus Christ whatsoever, it must open up the conversation.
There is no other way.
Christian Socialist
Considering the mush Schaap was ladling out every Sunday, do you really think there are any mature meat-loving Christians over there?
(Scanning…Warning! This comment is pure, unadulterated sarcasm. Consume at your own risk.)
I don’t think it is sarcastic. They are told that serious bible study takes away from soul winning, so if someone is a meat lover, they leave.
Dear boymom:
First off, I’d NEVER admit to NOT thinking.
Second, the present, Hyles’ redux answers your question eloquently.
Third, open discussion may be First’s ‘first move’ away from spiritual pablum and toward maturity.
Thanks for the reply. Take care!
Christian Socialist
I’m with Sadie, up until certain points. Those points being:
– Schaap is in a “powerful” position
– Schaap did something potentially illegal
– As some others have said, Schaap beats the pulpit to death with sexual purity and modesty
– Schaap honestly believes women are weaker than men in all aspects: spiritually, emotionally, physically, and yet, he’s fallen so disgracefully it’s sickening
Based on this, the only thing I’d ever accuse this child of is … well, nothing. Nothing at all.
So, I guess I’m not with Sadie at all. Oops.
As some others have said, Schaap beats the pulpit to death with sexual purity and modesty…
Again, it looks like he was self-medicating and self-treating in secret. Often you can tell a “secret sin” by what offends the preacher out of all proportion. Somebody told me that a LOT of psychiatrists and psychologists are borderline batshit themselves and go into those professions in order to self-treat without anyone ever finding out. And preachers are probably no different — the extreme Purity reactions may be attempts to self-treat a besetting sexual sin in secret. Because a Man-o-GAWD cannot show any flaw or failing whatsoever. Or the other Men-o-GAWD will turn on him like chickens pecking a defective to death in the barnyard.
@Sadie, why are the people at FBC so heartbroken? If people saw the man in FBC’s pulpit as fallable, and not some object of worship, then they wouldn’t be so shocked and dismayed when they hear that a man has sinned. Look to God, he doesn’t disappoint.
@MKXcomm: I don’t presume to know whether you are a churchgoing person or not. And it’s none of my business anyway. But if you are, imagine how you would feel if your pastor were found out in the same sin. Whether or not a pastor is made too much of or idolized, the people are going to be heartbroken if he commits a sin of this magnitude.
A church has to have a leader, whether he’s called pastor, priest, or elder. Someone has to stand in front of God’s people, however little or much authority he (or she) is given. And in order for that person to be chosen and allowed to hold that position, the congregation has to trust them. Of course they should not be trusted above reason or above God! It is yet to be seen whether the failure in the situation of which we speak was a failure of FBC’s accountability system or whether schaap is just extremely smart and very sneaky. But either way, there was a massive breach of trust, and that in my opinion, is why the FBC church members are heartbroken.
My sincere hope is that the people of FBC will check themselves and their systems carefully and fix the flaws. I hope that they will remember that any man is just a man, and create a strong accountability system. Like I said at the beginning of this (somewhat rambling, sorry 😉 ) reply, I don’t presume to know if you are religious. But if you are, pray to that end.
As a former member of Hyles Baptist Church i can trully say that this
situation with jack schaap is heart wrenching. I attended the church ladies meetings, sent my kids to youth conference and whenever in town always attended fbc. They were our ” home” church and our mentor. Now i sit and ponder over my thoughts and wonder how much i heard from the pulpit was real biblical preaching or just a wolf in sheeps clothing. I only know the fundy world. The world of do nots. Don’t go here and dont wear this and dont say this and so on. What is truth? Can a man behind the pulpit be reverenced and respected? Is he preaching what sayeth the Lord or what sayeth the preacher.
Tough questions, but you’re right, they need to be addressed.
Ellen:
This is a beautiful statement. Thank you for sharing.
Christian Socialist
You are on the right path…it may take awhile like so many here
I have had to re-evaluate all the “do nots” in the light of actual Biblical teaching and the truth of our liberty in Christ. It’s intimidating and time-consuming at first, but amazingly freeing.
One thing that I cling to is the fruit of the Spirit. A pastor needs to demonstrate those qualities; if he is arrogant not humble, harsh not gentle, and impatient not patient, I have to admit that no matter how appealing his other qualities may be, he is NOT Biblically qualified to be an elder.
Dear ellen:
I wanted to revisit this. In the place of all the rules that have been proposed, I suggest that we follow two.
Love God above all, and others as oneself.
Rationale? Jesus said that on those two words hang all that the law and prophets taught.
Christian Socialist
Amen!
Perfect! I have four boys, and that is the only rule in our house: it covers everything!
Dear TP31babe:
I have four girls. We need to talk.
Christian Socialist
Well, how old are they? We could just hook them up now, and forgo all the “dorting” and inevitable sex (since around here, we teach that bodies are sinful, and sex is bad: we want them all to be preachers one day, amen?).
Don’t bother to reply unless they’ve only worn dresses, though. Culottes are too seductive. Our boys don’t know that girls have legs. 😈
I feel a little dirty for writing that. 😯
Dear TP31babe:
Awwwh. Don’t feel bad! Give the boys more credit! They’ll get the hang of it! As for ‘the girls’ [as they’re referenced] I’d guess they’re older. For the most part, they’re independent and career minded. And any man who thinks these gals can be cowed, boxed or otherwise controlled is in for a seriously rude awakening.
I’m afraid I didn’t do a very good job raising them.
They’ve got too much of me in them to abide a world void of alternatives, full of straight lines, run by fiat dictates, backed by vacuous answers, resulting in cheap glory for living unimaginative lives.
Christian Socialist
Awesome! That’s how my dad raised me–in spite of my mom! 😆
Can a man behind the pulpit be reverenced and respected?
I believe that this question is at the heart and soul of the IFB problem. While the man who stands to teach/preach may be respected he is not to be reverenced. He may be given honor for his gifting to teach/preach but reverence in scripture is reserved for kings, spouses to one another and God.
While many in the pulpits of America (especially) like to think of themselves as kings… they aren’t.
Undue reverence leads to man worship and that is the leading cancer in the church body today.
The average passive pew dweller is content to have someone spoon feed them what they should think about this and that. Give them a set of rules to keep and do their Christian thinking for them. How many passive pew dwellers actually take a sermon they hear on Sunday morning and flesh it out?
-What was the text verse or if the pastor was especially spiritual this week, text verses (pl).
-What did he say about the text. (assuming that he said anything at all about it.)
-How does what he said line up with scripture? With what other men who have studied the scriptures say about the text or passage?
-How does it line up with Church doctrine?
-If something he said does not line up are you free to approch him and question his statements? (if not you might be in a cult)
Nowhere has God ever said, “I have given you this pastor, now check your brain at the door.”
Why is that so important to me these days? Because I once was a koolaid guzzling, passive pew dweller myself. And it is a hard habit to break. I try and think through what I am taking in these days and if I don’t agree with something I file it away and ask about it when I feel it is appropriate.
Hard to respect the men of God when things like jack schaap and this young girl come to light. Im sure there are some decent pastors who truly love God and the,people that he has given them. Its just so unbelievably disturbing to trust and believe the man of God who stands before you and then has this secret life to which he preaches against. Whats a soul to do?
Honestly, leave IFB. And I am dead serious. I was in it for 20 years. Got two seminary degrees. I was always scared that if I left, my kids would go off the deep end. The absolute opposite was true. They finally found hope and joy and truth in the evangelical baptist church we found.
In my case I have rejected the way church is “done” in America. I will not be a “member” anywhere so long as it means I am bound to this social group exclusively. And, I will never go back to a single man rule in a chruch ever again.
The secret life of one pastor I sat under was that of an arsonist, a liar, and a sociopath who used the Fundie topic of how God hates Homosexuals to build himself a repuatation and orchastrate his own persecution by a band of phantom homosexuals… until it all came crashing down. Seems that he was leading a double life of practicing homosexuality while building his local fundie creds as an Anti-Homosexual crusader. He’s in jail now for attempted murder. So yeah what does one do? When someone you loved and trusted and who you counted as one of your closest friends in the world, and who was your IFB pastor, turns out this way? What do you do?
You learn. You rip the blinders off and you open your eyes wide, taking them off of people around you and to the best of your ability look to Christ. It’s tough and there will be times you throw the Baby out with the bathwater… but you realize there are no lightning bolts being hurled at you for your performance any longer.
I personally left the IFB completley and only attend church once a week. But I have never walked closer to Christ than in the past two years since leaving. (my 2 cents, for what its worth)
Ellen, this sentence in your comment stood out to me: “I’m sure there are some decent pastors who truly love God and the people He has given them.” I can verify that there are indeed such pastors. I have known a number of them. It’s this: “…the people He has given them.” In IFB this seems like a natural thing to say. Preachers (not all) in IFB tend to consider their churches to be their little kingdoms and those are “their people.” But God didn’t give any people to any man. John 17:24 clearly says the Father gave them (that being all believers) to Jesus! The whole passage is Jesus’ prayer for His disciples and then for all believers. The Father gave those people to Jesus, not to a pastor. The pastor himself is one of those people and should never consider himself anything more than that! Don has often pointed out the danger of one-man rule in churches. The best preachers I have ever known, including two IFB (beleive it or not) and two military chaplains, are humble men who make it known they are one of us, a member of the Body of Christ equal to any other person in the church. Their job of preaching the Word carries a greater responsibility, perhaps, but that does not elevate them; rather, it places a greater weight on them to do so honestly and accurately.
Maybe you should re-think the role of the pastor. Does God really “give” a pastor the congregation? For what? So that the pastor can “build a great work”? When the pastor becomes the focal point and selling point of any church, there will likely be trouble coming…
Seems that he was leading a double life of practicing homosexuality while building his local fundie creds as an Anti-Homosexual crusader. — Don
Sounds like he could have been self-medicating/self-treating his own homosexual tendencies. In secret, as a Man-o-Gawd cannot show any flaw whatsoever.
Like recovering alcoholic Billy Sunday constantly preaching aginst Demon Rum.
Or Rush Limbaugh being Numbah-One Fan of the War on Drugs while fighting a secret Oxycontin addiction.
@ Darrell, love your article. I’ve been pretty silent when it comes to this whole jack Schaap business, as I no longer attend church or even consider myself a Christian. Fundy-“mental” Baptists have turned me off of all things church, God, and religious related or affiliated, whether that be good or bad for my life. I do keep up with current events from time to time. I’m glad there is some kind of medium out there that draws attention to not letting predators silencing the public or specifically there membership, from their crimes. I use the term crimes and not “sin” purposely. These actions go way beyond so called “confines of religious doctrine” to be called just a sin, it is plain criminal perpetration. “Church Leaders” and attorneys telling people to be quiet is a half handed way of forcing people to abandon their civil right of free speech under the guise of “Christian Behavior and forgiveness”. We are not God, we are incapable of total and complete forgiveness. So for better or worse, there is no forgiveness for a CHILD MOLESTER. Age of consent is irrelevant, under 18, still a child.
Let me use a real life example here regarding David Gibbs and the CLA’s imploring church members to come to them with past crimes committed, if they have information. IF I was victimized by someone or someone in an organization, church or otherwise, why in the world would I go to that persons or organization’s defense attorney and tell them what they did to victimize me. First of all, that’s an extreme conflict of interest. Secondly, if they do their duties as a defense attorney, they will not be transparent, unless it becomes unavoidable, because it’s not in the best interest of their client. I don’t care if the CLA claims to be Christian, they are still lawyers. Christian values kind of go out the door when it comes to jurisprudence. If they lived by and practiced in law what they claim to stand for, they would have been out of business years ago.
Defense Lawyers are typically the most hypocritical and lowest life forms on earth. These people generally sell their moral beliefs and scruples for money and/or notoriety. The bad thing is they often get the guilty off the hook. If we don’t put these people in check, and make everyone aware of what is going on, it just gets worse. Not questioning the right to defense, just stating that predators should be held criminally responsible for victimizing people and victims not having to worry about their perpetrator hiding behind an attorney and being set free to victimize further.
I often wonder when I here these type of stories, How could a person that is suppose to try to help people and teach about God’s love and forgiveness, commit crimes like these. I think we all have to remember, we are all human, yes, but people that become predators don’t get that way overnight. There is always a pattern of behavior. It seems all to often that Fundy churches breed these type of people, or at least create the environment to develop them. When you give people absolute power over your life, without question, really, really bad things happen. If you have ever been part of a Fundy Church, you know what I’m talking about. It’s the story of humanity, people will always take advantage of other people, when it’s in their best interest.
I’m just glad as a teenager I learned to question their absolute authority of and over a person, the pastor in my case, over even my parents authority. I may have suffered the consequences physically of being a “rebel”, but I know I’m a stronger person for standing for what I believed, damned the consequences, at an early age. It ended up causing a lot of problems in my family life, but I’m glad that my Dad finally saw the light and got out of there, and we finally have a good relationship for the first time in 25 years.
I will never ever give a thought of forgiveness to these Fundy churches, or the “believers” that commit crimes and expect God and the church to forgive or absolve them and forgive them of any wrong doing. It completing changed and ruined my family dynamic growing up. It caused my Mom and Dad, who were married before attending these churches, to be divorced after being married 30 years. This was at the advice of the HAC pastor, cause my dad wanted to leave the church, and she didn’t. Turned out to be a nasty divorce and custody battle for my younger siblings. It caused a few of my younger sisters to be outcasts from the church and turn into alcoholics and drug addicts and has caused friends I grew up with in the churches youth department to commit suicide or become violent, manipulative, possessive people, after they left or were outcast themselves. I just always find it funny that they learned this by the example of people in “church”.
Dear Aaron:
Tragic personal story. What can I say?
While affirming forgiveness as a means of finding healing for OURSELVES, I think that justice requires another stroke.
1] If I were on a jury hearing this case, and it came out that the defendant was attempting to silence, misdirect or otherwise sabotage the state’s case, I would not hesitate call other jurors to deliver a second sentence for obstruction of justice.
2] Regardless of what other turns this takes, I believe that it behooves the good people of Hammond [and especially, other church communities] to send a clear, sustained message to First: if you intend to be a good neighbor among us, you need to address issues and put accountability mechanisms in place.
If First refuses, it can have no meaningful reply when on the streets there breaks out a campaign to the effect that First is ‘not a safe place.’
If I lived in Hammond, I suspect that I’d be rallying people to picket across the street on Sunday morning. The answer MUST be ‘NO.’ First isn’t getting away with this behavior.
Your heartbreaking family story is all the justification I’d need to pursue this course.
Christian Socialist
Thanks Christian Socialist.
Any legal social actions taken to call these SOB’s out is a plus in my book.
When you have the same accusations and/or actions of abuse coming from the same church under 2 differant “leaders”, then something has to be going on. Like the old saying goes, “If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it’s probably a duck”.
I love how FBC and other Fundy churches teach love and forgiveness when you “sin”, except when you don’t agree with their doctrine or tactics. You question them or leave their “flock”, love and forgiveness goes right out the window. It’s no longer in their mind or vocabulary.
It just makes me angry that my siblings were raised in church, every aspect in their lives revolved around the church, went to “Christian School”, then when they actually get old enough to think for themselves and leave, they’re on their own, outcast from everything and everyone they have ever known. It’s no wonder they turned to drugs and alcohol. Not making excuses for their decisions, but where was a supposed church friends and members love, compassion and forgiveness then.
Sadie, you’ve gotten a LOT of replies, so I was back and forth about saying anything. But decided to.
I totally understand your desire to encourage love and mercy on people who are hurting. I have no doubt that there are broken-hearted people at FBC, and I do feel sympathy for their sadness.
But I’m not sad over it. I’ve heard Jack Schaap preach a few times (never in person, but in recordings). Sadie, that man was never preaching the Gospel as it is taught in the Bible. He was preaching a false gospel based on earning your salvation by your work of faith, and then keeping your standing with God–not through the infinite and precious righteousness of Jesus Christ, but through your own efforts. He was teaching people to care about “soulwinning” more than they cared about Christ. And that’s not even to mention his very…to put it nicely, ODD sermons with sexual overtones.
In Colossians, Paul is talking in the context of the Church–talking to you and me as we think about our life and community among the people we fellowship and worship with, including all church leaders–when he said “See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ…Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism…going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,… If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations—“Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.”
Consider those last lines: these things have an APPEARANCE of wisdom, but they are worthless. They are nothing more than man-made religion, and we are commanded to resist anyone–no matter who he might be–who attempts to take us captive to these things. The one who does is not “holding fast to the Head.”
The reason I’m not sad that people are hurt now that this idol has fallen is that there are some people who need to be broken in heart before they will give up themselves, their self-made religion, their idols, their appearances of wisdom and come to Jesus Christ as rebellious, sick, helpless criminals who can do not one thing to earn God’s favor or pay anything of the debt they owe him–who cannot even wrestle their hearts into submission to Him without His grace–and beg for mercy only, ONLY on the merits of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
I’ve heard the responses, even in the genuine grief of these people, Sadie. And they are the responses of people who are broken-hearted because their idol has collapsed. And because his fall has revealed that the highest self-made religious standards of man cannot support anyone. No one is safe in that system. No one cannot fall. And in their system, you not falling depends on you. When you fall, you have to re-earn your favor with God by fresh deeds of repentance. YOu have to question if your original “conversion” was sincere or real. You have to re-do everything you once did and hope that this time it’s good enough.
This is miles away from the peace of Jesus Christ, Sadie. When we fall, we have genuine sorrow for failing to be like the God we love, and if we love Him we beg for more grace to be like him. But we have no question that we are forgiven because of Christ. We have no question that our acceptance with God hasn’t changed because we changed. We hear the call of Christ: “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star. The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price…come, everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and he who has no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
Why do you spend your money for that which is not bread, and your labor for that which does not satisfy? Listen diligently to me, and eat what is good, and delight yourselves in rich food. Incline your ear, and come to me; hear, that your soul may live; and I will make with you an everlasting covenant, my steadfast, sure love for David.”
Very well said. The Hyles camp would have us believe that our salvation, and even the salvation of other people, depends on trivial things such as what we wear, what we eat and drink, what music we play or hear, or which formulaic prayer we have repeated. This is contrary to the Gospel.
The good news is that Jesus Christ has already triumphed over the powers and principalities of this world, and God’s power is wholly sufficient to deliver us from sin and death. God’s grace does not come through Hyles or Schaap or any other “Man of God.” It is offered as a free gift to every person.
So how can you know you are saved? I was from the formulaic prayer system, the “if you pray this and really mean it.” But, believing in God isn’t enough, or is it? At my former church they said believing he’s there isn’t enough, that even demons believe and tremble. So being sincere enough and believing hard enough isn’t the answer.
We were fed a lot of bad theology. When I was around 15 many members of our youth group all got “re-saved” that year. It is a bad theology that just breeds doubt.
The fundies are starting to sound like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfResyFrqlM
This is my first post by the way, nice to meet you all.
Welcome aboard The Black Pearl of Great Pricebefore Swine. Glad to have you sailing with us. Once you settle in you will have to check out the White Piano Lounge. 😉
I was trying to think of the right words to express my appreciation of the Welcome aboard The Black Pearl of Great Pricebefore Swine. I just can’t think of anything to say. It’s too great. I nearly choked on my morning coffee.
We even have a photo around here somewhere of the ship under full sail right after we christened her. It’s awesome. Before we got the sails and rigging we had to row everywhere we went. Now she’s a full blown Luxury Liner. 😉
It looks something like this:
http://celebritywonder.ugo.com/mp/2012_The_Pirates_Band_of_Misfits/2011_the_pirates_band_of_misfits_020.jpg
Captain Darrell, is, of course, not pictured. Somebody has to steer the thing.
I think that link has gone bad.
Let’s try this one:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-L5t89XTCxWQ/T5wQlA7rbeI/AAAAAAAABHE/-a_jtbzmRn4/s1600/pirates!+band+of+misfits.png
Captain Darrell is in this one (holding the Dodo).
Or this one:
http://i.imgur.com/L8vIl.jpg
Welcome, bits!
Dear bits n’ pieces:
Thanks for joining the band. This means I’m no longer the new kid on the block.
Christian Socialist
Christian Socialist,
Wisely crafted response. I appreciate your discernment. We shall see in the coming months how “First” fares with their responsibility to face this all-important, life and death reality.
I’m not all sinister in my thoughts for those who don’t embrace my system of beliefs. I have no corner on knowing God. The Baptist bride is unscriptural. I had an alcoholic father who did not know the Lord. I played the Lutheran altar boy as a teenager. It just so happens I met the Lord while in a Baptist church.
I think you’re concerned with God getting all the glory.
Thanks for your time.
Darrell must have been molested by Schaap. I question if even Schaap is saved. Hyles cult will go on that for sure. Most IFB preachers are just Hyles cronies or they want to be just like him. And most are. There actions speak louder than words.A bunch of hypocrites, the whole bunch of them. We are watching the fall of Hyles empire and may God see it thru to destruction.
What an odd thing to say.
Schaap has molested my ears, but he’s never been close enough to my body to touch it.
Darrell,
You’re so snide. Hats off to you!!! Most people learn to write at a very early age, but they go on to better things. Looks like you and your platitudinous ponderosities are in a quagmire – stuck for life lambasting poor sinners for whom Christ wasted His time on the cross. Your followers must be internet followers because folks in your presence would need very little discernment to know the real Darrell. A bitter, proud, disillusioned, failure in the ministry looking for fault just like the pharisees.
Which ministry was I supposed to have failed in? Some very, very odd statements here.
Methinks “Baptist” is projecting. 😀
I’ve never seen Darrell attacking poor sinners but rather the powerful and self-righteous wolves in sheep’s clothing that have deceived and decimated the flock.
Was Jesus a Pharisee for pointing out the faults of the Pharisees?
@Baptist,
Darrell does a very good job of getting right to the point of an issue, makes you think and makes it easy to form your own opinion. He doesn’t need $1,000 words to make people think he’s smart or educated. His opinions stand on their own. If not, Fundy campers like you wouldn’t be on an internet blog with no other argument then to make personal assumptions and be personally critical. You have to criticize people because you have no argument, if so you would have made it. Thank You for proving our point.
Wow, Aaron, I really didn’t consider those words to be valued at $1000.00 each. I wouldn’t spend that much for them if I were you. Just look them up. Google them; it’s much easier.
Your point. Is that what matters to you? Why don’t you give up your internet rhetoric and do more positive things for the Lord.
Fundy camper? Need $1000.00 words? …make personal assumptions and be personally critical? I’m not the only one making personal assumptions, Aaron. I write 6 1/2 lines of verbiage, and you allege I have no argument? Maybe not in those few words, but to prove a point was not the issue there, Aaron.
I was just playing the game. To quote Darrell, “I have a message for you all from the First Baptist Church of Hammond, Indiana, and their associated staff, members, fans, toadies, lackeys, and hangers-on: they would like for all of you to shut up now.” They? All of them? Is he sure? Y’all appear here to stereotype “fundys” – your term for baptist fundamentalists, I suppose. I guess that it is ok for you to stereotype the fundys even though not all of the associated staff, members, fans, toadies, lackeys, and hangers-on want what Dr. Schaap did to be held quiet.
He shamed the name of Christ. He committed adultery with an under-aged girl. He disregarded his vows to his wife. etc. etc. etc. Are you happy about that? Psalm 35:13, 14 would be a good read here. His deacons fired him the minute they knew of the incident and contacted the Lake County Sheriff’s department and the FBI. They have insisted that everyone associated with the man who has been violated come forward and go straight to the authorities. He’s not allowed on the church property. Though his name may not be expunged from all public literature, it has been eliminated in every possible way at all the properties of the church.
Darrell said, “They (all of them?) would like for all of you to shut up now.” Not so, Darrell. You’re not there; you don’t know all. You are ignorant in some respects. Admit it, boys. Darrell is correct in many respects. God knows “fundys” have their share of idiots, imbeciles, and morons. I tire of the unfounded remarks Darrell makes which I know to be incorrect, but there is no way for him to know that he is incorrect; he is not at FBC.
Our staying off these blog pages would give all of us time to do more constructive things for God. But my opinion doesn’t matter. I simply exercised my American right to voice my sentiments. John 3:30
Dear Baptist,
“Our staying off these blog pages would give all of us time to do more constructive things for God”
Do you mean soul winning?
Typical fundy trash talk. Coming to this blog has opened my eyes to the sheer emptiness of FBCH and HAC. Yes there are some sheep there who are genuine, but the shepherds are all guilty of manipulation or at least knowingly turning their heads away from the knowledge of lies and abuse. Don’t come here with your high horse mentality and expect to discredit Darrell. He is doing a service, albeit sometimes sarcastically and comedic, to help people see the emptiness of Fundamentalism.
Precisely
I couldn’t take the time to read blaptist’s big block of cheese, lol. 🙄
If you have something more constructive to do for God, then I would exhort you, in the words of Oliver Cromwell. . .”You have sat too long for any good you have been doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!”
😎
Dear Baptist:
What accountability mechanism[s] will First put in place for staff to follow?
Will First establish Biblical elder plurality as one step toward accountability?
Will First establish an independently trained team to investigate allegations of abuse by staff person[s] on church grounds?
Will First post information on several female and male contacts with no connection to First in the event of inappropriate and/or abusive behaviors?
Will First establish independent training for several advocates to come alongside those with a grievance of molestation against a staff person?
What legal liability if First prepared to accept if it refuses to implement any safe church measures, and further molestations occur?
Moreover, should these and similar questions be forwarded by registered mail to church office at First Baptist in Hammond, Indiana? Should the reply [or lack thereof] be published in local media?
It is, of course, First which is responsible to set its own, internal policy. That is First’s right alone. But if grave issues are brushed aside with no action taken to ensure the safety of women, girls and boys, then the city of Hammond has the right to conclude that First Baptist is not a good neighbor, that no safety precautions are taken to protect women and children, and that they are advised to stay away from the campus unless meaningful, independent measures are taken to protect those most vulnerable.
Christian Socialist
Christian Socialist,
What accountability mechanism[s] will First put in place for staff to follow?
Will First establish Biblical elder plurality as one step toward accountability?
Will First establish an independently trained team to investigate allegations of abuse by staff person[s] on church grounds?
Will First post information on several female and male contacts with no connection to First in the event of inappropriate and/or abusive behaviors?
Will First establish independent training for several advocates to come alongside those with a grievance of molestation against a staff person?
What legal liability is First prepared to accept if it refuses to implement any safe church measures, and further molestations occur?
Moreover, should these and similar questions be forwarded by registered mail to church office at First Baptist in Hammond, Indiana? Should the reply [or lack thereof] be published in local media?
It is, of course, First which is responsible to set its own, internal policy. That is First’s right alone. But if grave issues are brushed aside with no action taken to ensure the safety of women, girls and boys, then the city of Hammond has the right to conclude that First Baptist is not a good neighbor, that no safety precautions are taken to protect women and children, and that they are advised to stay away from the campus unless meaningful, independent measures are taken to protect those most vulnerable.
Your questions are valid, Socialist.
FBC is working hard to put many of the policies you’ve spoken of in place.
FBC leadership is asking anyone who has been victimized to go to the authorities – not Gibbs.
If we were to meet and did not know each other as “Christian Socialist” and “Baptist”, we would get along as casual acquaintances, I’m sure. You have a good, thinking, sensible approach to justice.
You and others have legitimate gripes about the nonsense you hear relating to actions committed at “First” by some in authority. Some things are valid; others are pure hearsay. The valid stuff is shameful, I agree. You and many of your cronies have heaps of legitimate crap to sling at many foolish fundies at “First” and its followers. I may call them followers, but most of them don’t follow “First”; they sincerely follow Christ according to the dictates of their conscience. Their salvation also, not gained by works as alleged by some on this site, is in Christ alone. Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
I did stay away from the Roman’s road, Socialist. 1-2-3 repeat after me does not save.
Accountability for leadership is a must. That is being dealt with.
That Dave Hyles spent much of his life with his zipper down ruining the lives of countless women and that “good, godly, influential leaders of Fundymentalism used him is an abomination in the sight of God. That man should have gone to jail for a plethora of reasons not the least of which was murder.
For that sorry excuse of a sinful human being and his association with the Fundamental Baptist movement I grieve. He and others like him brought shame to the name of Christ and carried with him the stigma and stench of sin to the independent Baptists. Let me add that whether one calls himself a “Baptist”, “Christian”, “Church of God”, “Ecumenical free”, whatever the title, his first allegiance ought to be to his Lord, Jesus Christ. Such ungodly behavior does not become a Christian regardless of his church affiliation.
That man needs some Christians to exercise Galatians 6:1 in his life. He does not need to exercise leadership in the ministry. The same goes for Dr. Jack Schaap. It may be worth your while to get an audio copy of “First’s” Wednesday evening August 15th service taught by Jim Binney; it may give you a truthful glimpse of the state and progress of former pastor Jack Schaap.
Christian Socialist, you probably won’t ever like fundys. Jesus loves them all and has saved many of them.
There are those in fundy circles who sincerely love God and despise their own sin and the sin of others in their church. Not all of them excuse or turn the head at the sins of their leaders. As I have understood it, the deacon chairman at “First” went to “Schaap” immediately at his first exposure to “Schaap’s” sin on Wednesday July 25, and he called “Schaap” into question. By Monday July 30 after uncovering further incriminating evidence, “Schaap” was fired. Because of our justice system, “Schaap” is awaiting a fair trial pending a thorough investigation by the FBI, the Lake County Sheriff’s Department, and the deacons of “First”, as I understand it, are cleaning house also. Good for all of those authorities involved.
There are those on this blog who would love for “First” to just go away. It won’t, sorry. And for that crowd I will say, neither will the devil go away; you’re stuck with him, the world, and your flesh – and “First”.
If you do think that “First” will ever be a legitimate house of worship, you can pray that their leadership does right in their response to all that has transpired. Not all of the leadership screws teenage girls on the side. My gut feeling is that all of the assistant pastors there are still married to their first wife, and have been faithful to her for the duration. An investigation of them would not concern any of them; it will probably happen. Good.
This written filibuster was for Christian Socialist, so if anyone else reads it and disagrees, good for you. It does however contain pertinent, accurate information about “First” if anyone is interested in God’s having any blessing left for those poor Christians left there.
No, this is not a fix-all as someone accused me of trying to accomplish. It’s the information some of you fundy-hungry Christians are wanting without having to arrive in Hammond incognito to spy and slyly slurp up the slop yourselves.
Independant council? Protect women and children? This is totally against the IFB belief system. Women and children have no rights. The are independent so they don’t have to answer to anyone. We have all seen what happens to people who do challenge the all mighty pastors. I grew up on the 70s in one of Jack Hyles”s clone churches. What saddens me most is seeing the same things I saw as a kid still going on today. I’m so greatful for social media and seeing these people exposed.
Dear Baptist:
1] I fail to see why knowing each other real-time as ‘Christian Socialist’ or ‘Baptist’ would matter. I am who I am.
2] On one level, the Jack/David_Hyles/Schaap escapades don’t interest me. Nor am I following the unfolding the Schaap story. It is Christ’s Name and those injured that matter here.
3] No Christian [including this one] takes issue either Scripture or its teaching. Some of my posts are filled with Scripture.
4] As for allegiance to Christ first, my moniker is my answer. Christian … socialist.
4] Scandal is always followed with talk. Where possible, it is best to ignore that and let principled work be seen clearly.
5] Admirable and necessary as is your concern for Mr. Schaap, know that such things never happen in a vacuum. It is my judgment that you are most likely seeing a very deeply, engrained personality disorder. Dealing with this is extremely difficult, fraught with pitfalls, and requires years of commitment. Some question whether such conditions can ever be known to be corrected or healed. This isn’t for cowards.
6] I’m not interested in Brother Jim Binney’s teaching ministry. And if you’re reading closely, you may sense that I have some insight into these things already.
7] Fundamentalists can be irritating as hell, largely because they can be as dumb as a bag of hammers. Unfortunately, Jesus DOES love them; that means we must also.
8] I’m not concerned with juridical procedure other than to know that it is being done. That matters.
9] The real concerns here include: a] support and healing for this girl, and b] the implantation of a ‘safe church’ system. And saying you’re doing it isn’t enough.
10] People have thought through issues and created plans and programs to address them. First has the resources to examine these, become expert in them, and to implement a top-notch ‘safe church’ plan.
11] First has a further responsibility for which it has a unique but fleeting opportunity [kairos] to meet. Elsewhere on this site, I have said that First seriously needs open discussion on this matter. That’s true. But a ‘safe church’ plan in operation is only part of the matter.
12] If First truly wants the trust of the city of Hammond, let it resolve to minister to the victims of abuse, both the molested and their families.
13] To document the need of such a program, visit the city of Hammond Sherriff’s office. Ask to see the database for sex offenders within a one mile radius of First. Be sure you’re sitting. It won’t be pretty.
14] While all Baptist churches have equal status in theory, it is no secret that the influence of some far surpasses that of others.
15] If First truly wants the gratitude of many thousands, it will craft from its experience a new narrative explaining how Christ has led it in new directions, and encourage others to have the serious discussion of these issues that is needed.
16] It is ONLY out of the strength of your OWN open discussion of these matters that you can ask others to do the same.
17] Telling the truth and facing YOUR demons will give others hope and strengthen them to face their own demons. Be leaven for good throughout the Fundamentalist movement. It is time to acknowledge that many others need deliverance also.
18] It is because our Adversary IS here for the long haul that we must be honest, thorough, proactive, compassionate and faithful in these things.
19] It isn’t for me to decide whether First is or is not a legitimate house of worship, or whether First’s worship is heretical. In Re 2-3, Jesus assumed that role for himself. I’m content to leave it with him.
20] Still, my sense is that board’s response to this situation will significantly color Jesus’ outlook on First.
21] Whether you are in leadership or part of the faceless sea of humanity at First I cannot say. But someone needs to distill the programic/ministry ideas and set it before the leadership and the church. You’re at First. You have standing. And you don’t have to drive to Hammond. Better for you to do this than me.
22] If I didn’t give a rat’s @$$, I wouldn’t have spent this much time preparing this answer. Don’t retreat or blow off what I’ve said.
Christian Socialist
PS: My church has Christians, some really stupid people, and some who are truly irritating. Some days, I try to be all three.
Look how cute the little troll is!! Banging away on his keyboard. Setting the world straight with his one-and-done comments.
Don;t feed him after midnight. Or is it don’t get them wet? I can never remember.
Praise you, Baptist. I thank god (small “g” intended) that he gave you the night off from doing better things for him so you could get on the internet and give us all a piece of your mind. Did god tell you that the opportunity cost associated with typing out your e-rants was greater than the opportunity cost associated with helping him save lost souls who are gonna split the fiery pits of hell wide open? If so, man, you’re awesome. I want a double portion of the fundy goodness. Right on Brother Baptist. Right on.
Don’t you feel better, Crystalclear? A double portion of “good feeling” is all yours. Congrats. Please though, praise only God. He gets kinda jealous.
Yes. Very cute. Thanks.
O.m.w….thank you thank you Scorpio. Lol. Good laugh.
Dear Baptist:
Stand for churches safe for women and children. Then we’ll listen.
Christian Socialist
Well…I probably still won’t listen
Christ didn’t waste His time on the cross for Schaap–only for His elect. Your entire argument crumbles before you even have a chance to show how worthless you really are. Go away now.
Matthew
That comment was for Blabtist
Dude’s got a point. Writing is just such a crap career. I mean, Shakespeare, Milton, Hemingway, Poe, Kipling, Carroll, Wilde and all those other losers? Geez, couldn’t they have found something worthwhile instead of *writing*? What a waste.
Signed,
Professional Writer 😀
Poe, poe, poe
Think its poe? Its not funny enough to be Poe.
Satire!!!!
Oh, come on, you just wanted to run your letters off the page. 🙂
Hey “Baptist”, the church called in a defense attorney to “preach” and advise any victims to come talk to him. That’s like Penn State advising any more boys that got raped in the shower to contact Jerry Sandusky’s defense attorney. So keep posting on here about the evil of posting on here. That’s amusing.
But save the “church is doing everything above board” speech. That church has always been an incubator for abusive, power-obsessed lunatics. Just because they’re all in shock doesn’t mean we are. We saw this coming 100 miles away.
Afterglow,
You’re misinformed. Do your homework. Some of us funnymentalists do know information to which you cannot gain access. Your ignorance in this instance is well apparent to those who know better. You justifiably have many legitimate gripes about fanatical fundys. This is not one of them.
How condescending. 🙄
As Baptist pat-pat-pats Victoria on the head.
If we can’t get the information, how can we do our homework? You spout generalities and profess secret knowledge on FBCH matters. Sources, please.
You get it!
Please, don’t get me started.
🙄
Darrell,
I love your sarcasm. I also have to note, how sad sarcasm has to be used to make a point to people who refuse to see the truth and refuse to take a stand for what is right in Gods eyes. Apparently, in this day, there is no accountability with church leadership……..it is always someone elses fault. I listen to FBNradio on the internet. I like the music and I like the preaching. I would not be able to tell you the names of who preached what, but recently, there was a preacher that preached on Church Impropriety and that God commands us to submit to church authority. I had to stop what I was doing while I was listening to this and take a deep breath because I could not believe I was hearing this.
I know my Redeemer lives and HE is not the author of confusion nor is HE the creator of lies. My Redeemer is the same one who told Paul to tell us:
“I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now pursuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.” Galatians 1: 6-10
One last note , Darrell. If I am correct, God had Amos use sarcasm to get the attention of His wayward children.
And all this time I thought it was because Jack Schaap ‘preferred’ another bible over the KJV! 😎
@Baptist – I’m not misinformed you CLOWN!! They posted the VIDEO of the service online! We ALL watched it and commented on the defense attorney’s “advice” to the church and it’s victims.
Afterglow,
And you still don’t know all that was said. YOU get the Bozo button, clown.
You must not be there with the authorities on site conducting their investigation and searching for any others who may have been affected.
C’mon, try to wrap your mind around the possibility that maybe those in leadership at FBC admit it’s time to clean house. Wait and see. Have faith, brother.
So a teacher in Texas gets five years in prison for being with 18 year olds, but Jack S*** is not even charged for taking advantage of a 16 year old?
It is not over yet. Deacons will be appearing before the grand jury this week. Part of the problem is that the age of consent in Indiana is 16. Most states it is 18. There is at least one other girl who has come forward according to a reliable source, If either one of them were not 16 when he had sex with them, he is cooked. If they were both 16 or older then they have to look for other possible charges. I want that slimey excuse for a man put in jail to rot, so I am praying the legal system comes through.
You might want to check that… 16 is the most common age of consent in North American jurisdictions.
My high school principal “groomed” me at age 16, as I later became aware of, to have sex with him. He began by teaching me to drive by letting me drive his car when he would take me home from babysitting his kids. He began keeping me late after school to work on projects. He became a sort of confidant for me to talk to about my life. Something he started, not me. At age 16 I had been in church my whole life and hadn’t even heard the word sex. I was raised without a TV, etc. etc. I was very naive. Said that to say, I had no idea what he was up to. It just felt nice and he seemed very helpful at the time. One night on the way home from babysitting, he touched my leg (that was covered by a long skirt I might add) and said, ” What would you do if I kissed you?” I got out of the car and walked the rest of the way home. I was terrified, confused, amazed,etc. etc. The next school day, he called me out of class into his office where he pressed me against his wall and kissed me and shoved my hand down his pants. Stunned, shocked, mortified, who do I tell?? Who will believe me? He’s well know in the community as well as very trusted charismatic assistant and principal of my church and school. By the way, this man graduated from Hyles-Anderson College. Episodes like the one above continued every week and he eventually penetrated me even though I told him no. I became ok as time went on (2 years)with the situation as I just couldn’t figure out how to break the news to someone, and who should I break this news to so this gets stopped. I finally caught a break in the action when I decided to go away to college. He still wrote me there and did things to me when I came home on holidays. The summer after my freshmen year of college, I was at the church and he came around the corner and shoved me in a closet where I shoved him for the first time and made him angry and he left. That night my pastor preached a sermon called, “Giants in your life” I was literally trembling at the end of the service and went forward and told the Pastor I had a giant in my life. The next day he called me to his office and wanted to talk about this giant. You see – I was (unknowingly) beloved by many because I had been such a great role model while growing up at that church. So, I finally told him the whole thing. He said, stay here. I will be back. He went over and fired the principal and then came back and told me to take this to my grave. It was never spoken of. I felt like saying something here. I get a lot of it is satire and all; but there are those of us out there where this thing is very real and we know how this happens and we know what it feels like when we can’t talk about it.
What a wicked, twisted, evil man to take advantage of your innocence and naivete.
You are very braver. Thank you for sharing that I know it’s painful.
For clarification, my situation did not occur at First Baptist or Hyles-Anderson. It was a completely different church in a different state.
I am 37 now, married with one child and still attend a Baptist church. I didn’t let this ruin me or take over me; however, I have dealt with lots of things on my own along the way.
Also, my pastor at my home church, shortly thereafter gave this principal a recommendation to be a principal at a school further away and has since told me I wasn’t welcome at my home church. I guess what I am trying to say is I wasn’t a slut and once my head cleared,was able to realize I wasn’t to blame. I was never treated as a victim or given any counsel about the situation that would have made me feel like it wasn’t my fault. Yet, it wasn’t my fault. That principal and my husband are the only people I have had sex with.
No, it wasn’t your fault. I wasn’t nearly as naive, or quite as young as you were, but was still taken advantage of by my pastor. When people that are in authority over you they can take advantage using the power they have. It’s not right, and it wasn’t right the way you were treated by your pastor either. It wasn’t right for the pastor to give the man a racommendation to another school, where he could take advantage of other kids either.
Good for you for not letting it ruin you or take over you! And I hear the dealing with lots of things; I have had to, also.
Sorry to hear about you too Beth. And really sorry to think there are so many others out there who’ve never been allowed to speak. Thanks for sharing.
Yes it does matter.
I am sorry that you had to experience what you went through.
The principle is to blame, the pastor is to blame and the entir movement is to blame.
The IFB movement allows stuff like this to take place all to often. The movement with it’s separation, insullation, and isolation policies, creates a cult of ignorance and that make for a target rich environment for Predators. It is a power play. They count on the victim’s slience, the victim’s confusion. the victim’s lack of ability to fight back and their won ability to demonize the victim as the aggressor if challenged.
Then there are idiots who, like the poastor in your story who clean up and cover up. They are so afraid of their own position being compromised and have been so brainwashed themselves regarding the mythical “Cause of Christ” that they willingly coverup and continue to mind rape the victims themselves. Silence is the great enabler. The victims must be counseled to remain quiet for the “cause of Christ” which will be hurt if the word of any impropriety should leak out… because their god is so weak like that. I believe if the “Cause of Christ” cna survive the scandal of Mary’s pregnancy, David’s adultery and subsequent murder conviction, I believe the cause of Christ can handle the criminal conviction of pedophile predators who have risen in the ranks of a cult where they target and abuse victims while hidding behind their positions of assumed authority.
Silence is the enabler. Justice denied, covered up and delayed is an abomination before the Lord.
Hi Don,
I wish more people were like you and felt like you. You are really dead on. Thanks for saying all you said.
To Don,
I am not even sure I know which is worse – being forced against your will sexually by someone who should know better or being made to never talk about it. Both are life altering hurdles to have to deal with.
The statute of limitations may not be expired, and you could still have him arrested. I waited too long and the man who sexually assualted me is free.
That’s terrible and I know how you feel. The statute of limitations where I was is 10 years after the minor turns 18. That would have been 11 years ago for me. I often thought about it in the early years; but I am just a coward I think.
*hugs* You aren’t a coward at all. You are a survivor, and you are strong and brave and are speaking out for others. That’s one heck of an accomplishment.