Preachers, Scandal

Last Gasps

763 Comments

From all indications, Jack Schaap, the infamous pastor of the First Baptist Church of Hammond and chancellor of Hyles-Anderson college, is on his way out the door. For now he’s on “indefinite medical leave” which in fundamentalism is generally accepted code for “about to be quietly fired for doing something horrible.” Word to the wise: keep an eye on the Wednesday evening service at FBC this week. It might be worth your time.

Update 1 (7:30p.m.) The story has officially broken by CBS Chicago so I now feel free to share it here. Christ have mercy.

But at least Jack managed to get one last burst of crazy in before he headed for an undisclosed location to await this fate and here it is. From July 8th here are some relevant excerpts from his sermon “What Mom And Dad Don’t Know Will Hurt Him.” Only click that link for audio if you have a strong constitution.

01:20 Let me ask your daughter something. You date him? Have you
kissed him? Ya’ sleeping with him? Multiple times?

04:04 And I’ll look at the person and say, who ya sleeping with? Your
kid’s problem(s) isn’t, the, did you see how short her skirt is, no,
the problem is, she takes her skirt, and everything else off. Your
kids are coming to me and telling me they have sexual experiences in
the hundreds; hundreds; hundreds.

05:04 Is she good in bed? How many times have you slept with her? Are
you uncomfortable?

05:46 You know, the most common question I ask our teenagers: are you
safe in how you act? Mom and dad, you understand the language? That’s
my most common question. In Baptist Church, in Hammond, Indiana, are
you practicing safe sex?

09:10 I want to say to my fellow brethren cremate me over this. Absolutely destroy me on the blog pages. Massacre. We’ve lost lost
scores of HAC students because pastors get furious when I talk about this. But who wrote the book on sexuality folks?

09:47 Nobody wants to be more intimate with you than God does. The language that Jesus Christ used when he talked to his Father about what he wanted for his people. Read John 17 mom and daddy and tell me how intimate he wanted your kids to be with him. Read John 15 and ask me if Jesus Christ just wanted to shake hands. [whispering] If you abide in me, and my words abide in you. I in you. You in Me. We in the Father, the Father in us. Don’t try to reach some ambiguous theological nonsense in that. Jesus was saying, can I put it in language that everybody understands. He says “I want be the most intimate of intimates with you.”

10:50 But if we don’t get it figured out that we’re connected with God. And when your teenager goes through adolescence and they start changing, and daddy, you don’t want to touch her anymore, you know you don’t want to hug her anymore; trust me, she’s got a boyfriend lined up who’ll be happy to touch her.

11:50 Mom, dad, listen to me. I don’t need more business, but when your children reach that age, and they start going through that 13, 14, 15 year stage, send them to me, I’ll talk to them. Please don’t look at me like I’m stupid, why are you talking this way? Because I don’t want to lose your kids, that’s why. Because you don’t want to find out about it do you mom and daddy. And I’ll tell you three reasons why. Number one, because you’re dirty yourself.

12:42 I was one of those little kids that went to a public school. You’ve heard me say it, I watched sex take place in the Junior High hallway, but I was a virgin when I got married.

13:09 You know what grieves my heart. I’m looking around and see some of you men sleeping and I want to walk up to you. I can tell you how many girls your son has slept with; I know. He lives at home with you right now. You’re sleeping. You’re sound asleep. I want to walk up to you and say wake up dad, your son is whoring around.

15:03 Do you know how many times your daughter sneaks out in the wee hours of the morning to have sex with her boyfriend? Well, not my
daughter. I’ll take pictures for ya’.

763 thoughts on “Last Gasps”

  1. This is definitely no surprise. I feel like pastors always preach the loudest in public against whatever is their most “besetting sin” in private. They rail against porn every sermon? I always wonder if they look at it all the time. They bash adultery every single message? I wonder who their mistress is.

  4. I hope the judge who sentences Mr. “It will be a cold day in hell before I get my doctrine from a woman” is female.

  5. It’s hitting all the major news outlets. Looks like old Jack was following in his father-in-law’s footsteps.

  6. If this clown is guilty, we should all dance an Irish Jig that a child molester GOT CAUGHT. Why is it that the most accommodating group on the planet to a child molester are Independent Baptists?? This guy might get killed in prison, but half of that church wants to give him a hug! If he robbed a bank would there be stern warnings about rushing to judgement? If he killed somebody? But since he just molested a kid, let’s all say a prayer and not get carried away????? What is wrong with people? This is exactly why the IFB movement is circling the drain. God is nowhere near it.

  7. He should not have been counselling a 17 year old girl in the first place. No reputable minister would put himself in such a situation and the fallout we are looking at now is the reason why.

    1. Really? I don’t think the problem was him counseling a 17 year old girl, per se. (Not that I would recommend going to him for counseling in a million years!) It’s a heart issue, and if he had a great relationship with God and his wife, and a little girl (which really, a 17 year old is)came to him for some advice, then there wouldn’t necessarily be a problem. It’s a heart issue, really. Not caused because of her sex, age, dress or anything else. Just my opinion.

      1. I guess I was assuming that the counselling was a series of meetings rather than a one-off occasion when the girl approached him for advice. I’m not implying that a minister should shun all contact with teenage girls but that it is generally good practice not to engage them in a counselling relationship.
        Also most ministers would want to avoid the risk of false accusations. I am NOT saying the accusations are false here, not at all.

      2. No. A man should not be counseling a 17yo girl. A man does not need to be counseling a woman alone. I have no issue with a man counseling a couple, but a man SHOULD NOT be counseling a woman alone. This is something that has been a huge problem in the Pentecostal and Charismatic circles and the same thing has happened.

        2. I guess my point was that it’s still a choice to have sex, counseling or talking does not HAVE to lead to more. Ever. What happened here is disgusting, and repulsive, and I’m glad he was fired/caught. I just think we need to be careful with thinking man-made rules such as “I will never counsel a girl/woman under any circumstances” will really change someone’s heart. He could never have counseled her and still have had sex with her, if he chose to. If we think that making up a ton of man-made rules to avoid all contact with the opposite sex is going to solve the problem, we are leaning towards legalism.

        3. I wanted to add, that probably there are some great secular psychologists/counselors out there who counsel women and don’t have affairs with them. I think the biggest problem, from all the posts on here and his own quotes, is that J.S. is a pervert. Just my opinion.

  8. Jenny Islander: “Because you do not say creepy, nasty, sexual things about underage members of your flock!”

    Hear, Hear!

    1. …And…. because they are not his flock in the first place. Jack didn’t seem to understand that.

  9. “Your kids are coming to me and telling me they have sexual experiences in the hundreds; hundreds; hundreds.”

    Seriously?? I don’t know of any fundy kid who would tell their pastor that they’re having sex. He’s definitely trying to cover up something. Unfortunately, it shouldn’t be surprising. Pastor worship can easily (and has) lead to being honored to gratify his sexual desires. How the mighty have fallen.

    1. Most IFB pastors believe sexual experiences also include being raped or molested. Because we all know it’s the girls fault 😕

      1. I’m glad you made the statement that I forgot to add: it’s always the woman’s fault. You need to watch the movie “Paradise Recovered.”

  11. Does anyone here a swoosh and a giant sucking sound when getting near the IFB?? Stay away from it! Run for your lives!

    2. Hay-men!!! I hope he never comes back to any position at any church in any country at any time for the rest of his life!!!

  13. To all the people on here that are teaming up on Pastor Jack Schaap, as the Bible says, “Let he who hath not sinned, cast the first stone.” NO matter what, pastor or no pastor, everyone has sinned. To God, sin is sin. If you haven’t sinned go ahead and say how wicked the man is, but if you have sinned, shut your mouth. The Bible also say, “If a man lookers after a woman to lust after her, he hath already committed adultery with her in his heart.” If every man is completely honest, he has already committed adultery with another woman. It is not necessary and neither is it Christ like to go on a “witch hunt” for another Christian. Yes what he did was not “Christ-like”, but ask yourself this, “How many times have I done something that wasn’t exactly Christ like. Instead of verbally “crucifying” him, how about we lift him up in prayer and ask Our Heavenly Father to help him, and through this allow us to possibly as the Bible says, “Examine ourselves.”

    3. David,

      Your logic breaks down as soon as someone listens to a fundy message…they are all about sin – other peoples sin. So, we will accept your proof text if you similarly sling it at your pastor this Sunday the moment he mentions someone’s sin.

      Deal?

    4. you are so right david. christianity as a whole is falling apart, not because one leader sinned, but that the rest of us so called christians are waiting for those in leadership to fall. spending more time watching and waiting to jump on another saved individual like a pack of vultures when they make a mistake, reminds me of the pharisee’s of old. I’m praying for him, and I hope that you all will do the same.

      1. No, we are not waiting for leaders to fall; we are calling on all Christian leaders to be the men the Bible demands that they be: “blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; but a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate” (Titus 1:7-8) “My brethren, be not many masters [teachers of the Word], knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation” (James 3:1)

        2. Sister Lisa, PW is just pointing out the Scriptural qualifications for men who are under-shepherds. It wasn’t wishful ideals being proposed, the opposite of these qualities could mean a man is disqualified. None of us are perfect, that is why we all need a Savior. However, teachers or Pastor’s are still called to a standard.
          We can’t really say this isn’t possible, can we? That would be a bit like having a form of godliness but denying its power. 2 Tim. 3:5

          This chapter of Titus wasn’t hyperbolic wishful thinking. Can a man not be affected by the Grace of God enough to have this kind of life? I’m not saying that any man aside from Jesus Christ is perfect but we should expect to see fruits of the Gospel and a continually repentant, humble life from our leaders by the Grace of God.

        3. Ok sisterlisa…Let’s lower the bar from blameless to NOT statutory rapists with God knows what other hidden sexual secrets and compulsions…how ’bout that? On a side note…I bet IFBers were the first to pile on Bill Clinton for his Oval Office activities…Oh wait he wasn’t a certified “MAN OF GOD”. At least he kept it to adult women…

    5. False logic here. Schaap is not just “every other Christian.” He is a leader, and has demanded obedience and respect on the basis of a position which requires him to be above reproach.

      If the girl was sexting him, then it was not a one-time fall. It was a pattern of sin for which he has not shown the slightest repentance. Were he to come out right now and say, “As my ministry and my attempts to influence, lead and condemn others was all public, I want to publicaly confess that I did X. It was a sin in God’s face. It was a horrible betrayal of my duty to Him, to my wife, to the church and most of all to this young woman. I do not deserve to lead God’s people and I am resigning and turning myself in to the civil authorities, where I will be 100% honest and plead “guilty” to all true charges. I will do whatever else is necessary for true repentance,” the majority of us would applaud him and say “there’s the Holy Spirit at work convicting a man.”

      “It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans…Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.”

    6. I am assuming then that a boy raping your child and a boy stealing a chocolate bar are both equal sins? I guess it’s really no different than if the boy had just lusted after her.

    7. David, you need to repent of calling God a liar! He meant what He said when He plainly stated the qualifications for pastors, and Jack Schaap fails the test.

      He also said to publicly rebuke pastors who sin so that all may fear.

      Drop the company line and study the Bible for yourself. While you’re at it, take a good look at Jeremiah 23. Read it twice. In a modern language so that you actually understand it.

    9. If that is the case, I fully expect you to consider that whenever you want to tell someone about their sin.

      Is Pastor Shaap immune to this tho? Why does he get to tell people about their sin yet no one can talk about his?

  14. You guys should be ashamed. Even if you didn’t agree with Schaap (and many times I didn’t) you shouldn’t rejoice to see him fall! It hurts the cause of Christ! The lost do not care if he is IFB, SBC, or reformed, the world sees him as the pastor of the 11th largest church in America and it will hurt Christs cause. Get over your self and pray for the New Christians and even Christians of 60 years. They need help! Pray that more pastors don’t fall to the same trap! Grow up and love people like Christ loves them.

    2. That’s the biggest and oldest load of fundie bull-manarky.

      Jack Schaap hurt the cause of Christ all be his iddy-biddy self. Let’s not take the eyes of the ball, shall we?

      We’re not “tearing down a man of God”. He tore down himself, disgraced himself and his family AND his church.

      I applaud FBC’s actions in this. They did what Trinity should have done with Bob Gray.

      So, cut out the “cause of Christ” crap, until you know exactly what that is.

    3. Are you kidding? I’m thrilled! Totally thrilled. I’m ready to dance. I’ve been hoping for this official word ever since I started hearing the rumors.

      That doesn’t mean I’m happy he molested a young girl. I’m not at all.

      But nothing is better for the cause of Christ than for this arrogant and deceitful man to be out of the pulpit. This “preacher” never preached the Word of God. He preached a man-made religion and accepted worship of himself. He dishonored God every time he stepped into the pulpit. He continued a wicked tradition after Hyles. This couldn’t possibly have come too soon.

      Hurt the cause of Christ? Nothing is more honoring to Christ than when His Church takes concrete action to preserve holiness in its midst. Nothing is more shameful than for the Christian community to pretend these things don’t happen and sweep them under the rug. Public sins are sins that are publicly offensive, and such sins should be publicly condemned and dealt with. This kind of action tells the world: “Christ is serious about holiness, and so are we.” This kind of action discourages hypocrites and frightens wolves.

      This is the first time I’ve ever had respect for First Baptist of Hammond. You’re conflating the sadness we should all feel when a Christian stumbles into sin with the joy we should feel when God’s justice is vindicated and a false teacher is removed from a position where he can harm people–either by his teaching or his action.

      1. Very well stated, Miriam. Wow, this is a serious post Darrell, man another one bites the dust. Please keep us posted on new info. 🙁

      3. You’ve put it the best I’ve seen, Miriam. We have the same name, and I was worried that people would get us confused, but I gotta tell ya, I think we’re saying the same things! 😉

    4. What would “hurt the cause of Christ” is a church covering up the evil perpetrated by a child molester. I think most people understand now that pedophiles are found in all walks of life but are most often drawn to positions of trust and authority where they are likely to have easy access to children — you know, teachers, ministers, coaches, and the like. His alleged crimes hurt his alleged victims and his own reputation.

      Christians who expose evil and stand by victims are supporting and lifting up the very doctrines Christ stood for. They are building UP, not tearing down, the “cause.”

    5. So, he was trapped? I knew it wouldn’t be long before we heard that one. Blame the victim.

    7. Do you know what hurts the cause of Christ?
      It hurts the cause of Christ when the public face of Christianity is heavily pocked with self-aggrandizing phonies like Schaap, who preach a wicked, self-serving, hate-filled, misogynistic false gospel week after week and year after year.
      That hurts the cause of Christ so such an extent that many decent, thoughtful people don’t want anything to do with any church or with Jesus or his followers. The roots of the tree of Christianity are not visible to the general public. All they see is its fruits. When the fruits are foul and stinking, they assume that the tree is bad.

      I agree with Miriam: Firing Schaap may be the first thing FBC Hammond has ever done that I could respect.

    8. @ Michael, I shouldn’t “rejoice to see him fall”? I will always rejoice when predators are punished. I will always rejoice when those who prey on the innocent must pay for what they’ve done. Justice and protecting the innocent is Christian at its core. If you can’t rejoice at justice, then what kind of person are you? Yes, Schaap can be forgiven, but Adam and Eve didn’t get to go marching back into the garden after they sinned, David didn’t get to build the temple, Moses didn’t get to see the promised land. There are consequences to sin, and I rejoice when those who hurt Christ’s “little ones” get justice. I am not ashamed of that. Get your priorities right.

    9. The ‘rejoicing’ for many is that someone took a stand about this and did the right thing. The more appropriate word would probably be ‘relieved’. We are relieved that he is out of leadership. Relieved for the people and for himself. He needs a serious amount of time to get help.

    10. “the world sees him as the pastor of the 11th largest church in America”

      No, they don’t. Outside of the local area and the IFB, I bet no one has any idea who this is. The self-importance of these IFB superstars is astounding.

      So if this hits primetime news, people will chalk it up to ‘religion’ while the people here and other people who have had bad experiences with the IFB will nod their heads knowingly.

    11. A more appropriate prayer is for these false “shepherds” to have their covers blown and exposed for the wretched wolves that they are.

    12. Michael, the cause of Christ is bigger than any man, even the pastor of the 11th largest church in the nation.

  15. No Michael.

    The world sees him as a child molester. And they see you with your arms wrapped around him.

  16. A child molester being caught and exposed has never hurt the cause of Christ. The cause of Christ doesn’t depend on child molesters.

  17. Woo Hoo!!!! He got caught! He can’t molest more kids! That’s what’s being celebrated, and that’s what’s important. This is what should have been done with Penn State’s Jerry Sandusky in 1998.

    Additionally, don’t think Penn State wasn’t on the deacon’s mind when they talked this one over.

  18. I am not hugging up to him, I HATE what he did and never met him! It does hurt the Cause of Christ!!! To deny that fact is idiotic, but this board is full of you all so I wouldn’t expect you to understand.

    1. Michael, the cause of Christ is God’s glory, not a church’s or a man’s. The cause of Christ is not dependent on any man. Everyone is replaceable while Christ and His redemptive work is not. See Philippians 1:14-18 in the Bible of your choice to see how Paul views contention and accusation about a man’s circumstances.

    2. K…I’m going to repeat myself from above…

      That’s the biggest and oldest load of fundie bull-manarky.

      Jack Schaap hurt the cause of Christ all by his iddy-biddy self. Let’s not take the eyes of the ball, shall we?

      We’re not “tearing down a man of God”. He tore down himself, disgraced himself and his family AND his church.

      I applaud FBC’s actions in this. They did what Trinity should have done with Bob Gray.

      So, cut out the “cause of Christ” crap, until you know exactly what that is.

    3. Molesting kids is what hurts the cause of Christ, not calling out child rapists, or calling for some justice.

    4. This doesn’t hurt the real cause of Christ. Just the anti-christ. You see, when man becomes the head and the people accept a human head instead of Christ as their Head, then this is what happens. So when the false head topples over, it’s time to look at the true Head as Leader. Do not put fallible humans on a pedestal.

    2. I agree, the cause of Christ did not depend on David, as it does not depend on any human.

      Keep in mind, though, that David repented of his sin and humbled himself before the Lord. The Lord did continue to use him after that, but even David was punished. Schaap has said or done nothing that indicated repentance.

      1. David definitely repented with great sorrow and a truly contrite heart. But before this happened, David was publicly rebuked by Nathan: “Thou art the man!” His sin and shame was called out before the nation. I wonder if David would have just tried to cover it all up had God not sent Nathan as messenger to let him know that God was not overlooking his sin.

        1. Not to mention that not only was David’s public sin made public throughout all Israel–at God’s choice–but even made public to us. Thousands of years later, everyone knows about David’s sin. The difference is we also know about David’s genuine repentance.

        2. Yes! Exactly! The difference is, David repented. He also still paid the consequences of his sin.

    3. You can deny it all you want but God no longer chooses to relate to man now the same way as portrayed in the OT. It seems that fundies have to rely very heavily on OT concepts to support their positions…maybe it’s because so many fundy “convictions” and “standards” read like Leviticus but they fail to focus much on the true teachings of Jesus

  20. You aren’t rejoicing only because he got caught, but because of who he is and the fact that he is IFB. You can accuse IFBers of being legalistic all you want, but there is NO love or compassion in your heart. I am glad that he will never molest another child, but I am saddened that Schaap ever did this. People will go to hell because they see Christians as a bunch of hypocrites! Sure, he fell, but I bet NONE of you have the pressures he has! I am not justifying him. IT IS WICKED, but you people are wolves!

    1. Sorry Michael, they will go to hell for their own sin – not another man’s.

      I know you are hurting right now. But God is bigger than this man’s exposure as a hypocrite.

    2. Yes, let’s feel sorry for his pressures. Keep in mind, he did this to himself. He couldn’t keep it zipped, and now he has to pay for it.

      When someone puts themself on a plateau as a model, to be looked up to, even criticizing those who are not like him, when he’s found out not to be the man he portrayed himself, he needs to be exposed, ESPECIALLY if its hurt other people.

      Imagine you were the Dad of that girl. Would you feel the same way?

    3. Sheesh, Michael, why are you so angry at the people on this board? Where is your anger towards Schaap and what he did?

      I happen to be a big fan of justice. And the fact that this idiot is getting his makes me want to rejoice. Btw, it is possible to be glad that Schaap has finally gotten caught AND to feel bad for the victims at the same time. The two feelings aren’t mutually exclusive, and the human heart is big enough for both.

    4. Michael, many of us have been where you are. We understand how it feels to see an idol fall. And we aren’t there anymore for good reason. It isn’t time to hide the truth. It is time to allow the law to work, to help the victims, remembering they are victims, and to be transparent. Something most IFB followers do not understand.

      It is time to follow God and not a man. Sure, God still used David. And a lot of other sinners. But that is just rationalizing and defending Schaap. You need to realize he didn’t “just sin”. He has, for now allegedly, committed a criminal act against a minor. That isn’t just a minor indiscretion. Wake up.

    5. When I say Schaap harmed the cause of Christ, I’m not referring principally to his private sexual conduct (although that certainly seems to have been bad enough).

      I mean that the hateful, mind-destroying rot he preached year in and year out scared many people away from ever opening an ear to the actual Gospel, and that he heaped burning coals upon the heads of his own followers while making them twice as fit for Hell as himself. This kind of perversion of the Gospel is what threatens the Body of Christ, not the private failings of any Christians, even very famous Christians.

      3. First off, Big Gary, I agree with your post. As a side note I think that “heap coals of fire” (Romans 12:20) is referring to sackcloth and ashes when people are in a mourning and usually repentant state. In other words, “heap coals of fire” means cause them to repent. I could be wrong, but just throwing it out there.

        1. Sackcloth and ashes were worn as signs of repentence, but I’ve never heard that still-burning coals were used in that way.

    7. Even when I was my “altar-ego” (thanks Don!) yesterday, I couldn’t make up the stuff Michael is saying.

      SFL – circling the wagons

  21. What happened with Jeff Owens did he step down for moral reasons on the same day?

  22. Michael.

    Let me bring out a lens that might help you see the truth.

    What are your specific thoughts about God’s man Jerry Sandusky?

  23. I am not hurting for myself, but the fact that another preacher has fallen and the fact that at least one teenage girl was harmed, and that (whether you like it or not) a church full of people are hurting, and Hammond & Chicago, and soon the World will see another preacher who fell.

    I understand that a person’s sins send them to hell, but people who see real christians are much more likely to be saved.

    We are all evil and it is only by the grace of God that we haven’t all done the same thing. It is horrible and heinous, but we shouldn’t rejoice just because he is a nut in certain areas.

    1. Agreed for the most part. I think most folks here are happy that the covers are off his hypocrisy. This is likely something that should have happened long ago.

      To say people who are saddened and angry about a man’s sin and wickedness is wrong (I believe wolves was your word) is not right either.

      Do you not rejoice when evildoers cease from evil and can no longer hurt the defenseless and mislead in God’s name?

    2. Do you know that when Bob Gray was exposed, that it broke my heart? I was devastated, because I couldn’t believe that a man that I heard my whole life would do such a thing.

      It shattered EVERYTHING I ever knew and believed in. Then, God took my broken heart and began to show me what grace was really about. What Christ was about.

      People are all sinners, all of them. They may act like they’re not, but they are. No matter how well they dress or how well they speak, they are all capable of doing horrible things.

      God taught me, through it all, that HE is the only one I should look to, should follow.

      It was then that I finally left fundyland, and FINALLY discovered what they meant by joy unspeakable.

    4. “We are all evil and it is only by the grace of God that we haven’t all done the same thing.”

      Call me crazy, but I don’t need the fear of god to know that sleeping with an underage girl, who I am also counseling, to be a terribly bad idea.

    5. Sorry, but I have very little sympathy for the members of his church…they are adults who chose to remain there week after week and listen to his rubbish

  24. Attention all IFB members!! Time to take a long look at yourself instead of looking at everyone else

  25. Sandusky and Schaap were both wrong, and did evil things. I am not saying he is right, or less wrong because of who he is. I am saying that it is wicked to laugh at his failure.

    1. Psalms 58:10

      The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

    2. You seem continue to suffer under the mistaken idea that it is evil to speak out against the sins of someone just because they are/were influential in a church. It’s been pointed out multiple times to you, but I’ll say it again:

      The cause of Christ is not hurt when sin is recognized and condemned within the church. It IS hurt when people calling themselves God’s children try to cover it up or undermine it. Or when people try to tell everyone they should just shut up because talking about it will “hurt the cause of Christ.”

      We are all sinners, even Christians, and we are never going to convince non-Christians otherwise (nor should we try).

    3. Michael, knock it off now. It’s not so much laughing at Schaap as it is recognizing that this sick, evil, lying pervert is out of spiritual leadership and less able to harm another young person. It is about rejoicing that this victim (or probably victims since predators can’t have just one) finally has a chance of getting real help and support instead of a second penis violating her body. When the heck are you Fundies ever going to get the clue that exposing the abuse in your world doesn’t harm the cause of Christ? It’s the abuse itself that does the trick! For someone so concerned about “the cause of Christ”, no Fundy ever seems to care about the victims. Yuck.

    4. Mike, let’s just face it…people frequently feel good when justice is heaped upon those who present themselves as superior, proud, arrogant and unloving. I, at least, don’t see him as a good man who “fell”, but as some level of evil hiding behind a righteous facade in the name of Christianity…and unfortunately, I believe there are many more out there who are just like him on a little smaller scale. You can continue to throw scripture around and “not” defend him but you’re wasting your time because I assume most are on this blog because they already had little or no respect for Schaap and his brand of fundyism.

  26. Attention “Stuff Fundies Like” blog users, keep your eyes out of the IFB circles and look at your own life!

    1. If you will be patient and follow us for a while, you will see a lot of introspection and self examination here. And it’s hard for some of us to “keep our eyes out of fundy circles” because we are still there to various degrees. Trying to show God and bring much needed change from within. (Which is scriptural, by the way)

      1. Ah, but patience isn’t exactly a Fundy virtue. Assuming the worst, covering up criminal behavior, majoring on minors… those things are what the Fundies love.

        BTW, Michael, we’ve looked at ourselves, our churches, our beliefs, you name it. You’re just spouting off a party line. Knock it off.

    2. We are looking to our own souls, and part of that is refusing to sit by and do nothing, thus allowing evil to prosper. I realize that in fundy circles, networking like this is considered gossip, but it is also a way of sifting the wheat from the chaff. It allows us to see through the smoke and mirrors of self-aggredizing preachers who attempt to hide behind pious cliches and cherrypicked scripture.

      In cases like this, Chaucer makes fun reading. He also had to deal with corrupt, slimy clergy who wove a web of pious cliches to flimflam the faithful while they literally got away with murder. When I was teaching at Marantha, we had the same situation in the local Baptist Church. The assistant pastor was having sexual relations with a college student. However, we were the bad guys because we were judgmental and unforgiving. We were to look after our own sins rather than the sins of the leadership. It would have worked except for the the President of Maranatha who put his foot down on the situation and forced the pastor to do right. However, justice was still not served. The credentials of the assistant pastor were never revoked, and he still stayed in the ministry.

      Fortunately, this site is not like those local churches where we, instead of the pastor, would have been the ones facing discipline because the congregation was either too loyal, or too stupid, or too brainwashed, or too apathetic to do what was right. I’ve faced this situation where leaders accused me of gossip, only to have it admitted to me that I was right and the leader was wrong. But this happened only years later when the leader was finally discovered and put out . . . and it was safe for people to applaud me on revealing the truth.

    3. Michael, I don’t know you. But give it up already. Why have you appointed yourself judge of all who are posting here? How is you telling everyone here what they should or not do or say any different than what you’re condemning? Get a life.

    4. Do you read this sh*t before you hit submit, or you just type it as if no one is going to notice it’s idiotic?

    5. My life includes IFB people and what they taught me. I try to view them as Christ would. He had harsh words for the self righteous. Much harsher than what I have seen here.

  27. So following your logic, it’s wicked that we’re happy that Sandusky got caught, and is now in prison. We shouldn’t celebrate the fact that he can’t hurt more kids? THAT is wicked??? According to who? Let me guess, Jack Schaap?

  28. Sandusky wasn’t the Pastor of one of the largest churches in America. People saw him as a football coach, not a preacher. Have compassion on the people around him, not him.

    1. What are your thoughts about the Roman Catholic priests who molested children? They are pastors?

    2. No man gets a pass for his sin/crime, no matter what his position (same goes for women). Pastors, deacons, elders, etc. do not, under any circumstance, deserve to be let off easy just because men revere them. We do have compassion on the victims, both the victims of his crime and the victims of his cult.

  29. So we’re drilling down to the truth now. Although earlier, you said…

    “Sandusky and Schaap were both wrong, and did evil things. I am not saying he is right, or less wrong because of who he is”

    you NOW SAY “Sandusky wasn’t the Pastor of one of the largest churches in America. People saw him as a football coach, not a preacher.”

    So for you, it is about who Jack Schaap is to YOU. Not to the world. To the world, Jack Schaap was a clown, that has now been exposed as a child molester. He was the center of YOUR universe Michael – not the world’s – or most importantly – God’s.

    The reason I have no problem with this page is because of what CHRIST said about the vaunted religious leaders when HE was on the earth. He told them they were garbage. He didn’t tell everyone to shut up and pray for them, simply because they SAID they followed God. Christ MOCKED them.

    Lastly, regarding chilren, Jesus said it would be better if we tied an anchor around Jack Schaap’s neck, and threw him into the ocean. So I think he’s getting off easy, just being disussed on the internet.

  30. Now all the HylesAnderson kids are going to go to West Coast. They’re last hope. I don’t think West Coast will fall though, but don’t quote me on it.

    1. Hyles-Anderson to West Coast

      From one unaccredited, bat-crap crazy, Kinder-College to another.

      College FAIL

    2. Did it ever occur to you that there is something incredibly wrong with the fact that so many IFB men have been immoral in such a devastating way? You think it’s just the men? They are being pumped with brainwashing techniques to develop a brotherhood-can-do-no-wrong mentality. It’s throughout their colleges, schools, camps, and churches. The dogma is the problem and mentally ill people come under dogma like that and it makes them more toxic than they already are. Mentally unstable people plus bad dogma equals utter chaos and destruction.

  31. Hoo boy. There is forgiveness in the blood of Jesus for people just like Jack Schaap, if they choose to accept it.

    1. If they repent.

      But sociopathic personalities don’t repent. They pretend to repent, when it’s advantageous and when there’s no other escape.

      If Schaap escapes prison, or when he comes out of prison, I won’t be at all surprised if he goes back on the preaching circuit with a new salvation narrative about how God cured him of his sin and helped him defeat the Devil. But it will be a sham.

      1. Yep, you said it. I hope people are starting to notice that sociopaths are a serious problem in that they keep rising to positions of leadership. One could say that sociopaths have a unique set of “gifts”. They lack a conscience (and never feel guilt) yet are capable of pretending that they have a conscience. That’s how they excuse themselves for all of their sins while readily condemning others for the same sins. 😥

        2. They seem to make very effective CULT leaders…hmmm…maybe you’re on to something here…

  33. Straw Man argument. No one has ever said Jesus can’t save somebody. But at least you’re focused on the defenseless kids who got hurt, and what Jesus can do for them. I’ll give you that.

    2. That attempt to deflect blame by putting down other churches is cowardly and vile.

      Bob Gray’s whole statement saktes dangerously close to complicity with the abuse

    3. Sounds like Bob Gray TX needs a little refresher course from James Spurgeon’s book “Tales From the Temple” – just as a reminder of how horribly whacked his own ministry was.

    4. Gray was correct in that sexual abuse and rape is not confined to IFB. It’s a continuing problem among human beings in general. What he fails to recognize is that because the IFB fosters an attitude of “we can’t let this get out or the cause of Christ will be hurt”, many rapes aren’t reported. The numbers of “reported” rapes don’t mean accurate numbers.

      1. Of course it’s not confined to the IFB. But if you’re caught stealing, it’s no defense to say “Other people steal too,” nor does it work to say, “But think of all the things I didn’t steal.” And if you’re caught running a system that facilitates abuse, it’s downright sleazy to answer with, “But there’s more abuse somewhere else.”

      3. I wasn’t defending Gray’s point of view. I was just pointing out that even if what he said was factually correct, its not in any way a defense of the movement, nor does it make the crimes and cover-ups in the IFB any less despicable.

  36. this kind of behavior (denounce it while you practice it) runs in Schaap’s family. My mom taught school under Hyles and attended FBC before I was born. When I was a tween, she sat me down and explained to me how Christians can be hypocrites sometimes, but that shouldn’t ruin our faith in God. She said Dave Hyles used to scream till his face went purple at the teenagers of FBC: “BE PURE! BE PURE!!!” She said that at the time she felt there was something ungodly in his rage. Not too long after that, they found a suitcase in a dumpster in the church parking lot containing pictures of Dave Hyles and a woman (not his wife), both very much in the nude and in compromising positions. Of course Dave wasn’t removed from the ministry, just moved to a different church in a galaxy far far away.
    Mom was also working for Hyles when he was accused of adultery, and the school principle essentially told all the teachers, “even if he’s guilty, I’d rather keep my family in this church because at other churches the women wear pants.”
    Yes, in some ways, my mom treated me as an adult when I was a child. :)And I plan to treat my kids the same way. It’s a sick, twisted world out there.
    I will say that the sermon excerpts in the post from Schaap’s sermon are dead accurate–at least when it comes to the sexual behavior of children who attend FBC and the school there. It was a wicked environment, thinly frosted over with a goody-goody veneer.I grew up in the Hammond area and I knew a lot of kids who attended the school. Many of them were pure evil, and I am not exaggerating. I am a skeptic, not a conspiracy theorist, but I am 100% positive that the kids in my youth group who attended Hyles’ school were involved in demonic activity. They would confess the same to you, if you asked them today. And they did it all wearing skirts!! Their parents wouldn’t let them wear pants, but they didn’t give a damn (literally) about their childrens’ inner spiritual condition.

    1. Q: Why do they always have to take pictures?

      A: Because they think that other people will never find out.

    2. I agree with your points on fundies using outward standards of dress and behavior to white wash inner filth…to me that is one of the major wrongs of this brand of fundyism…

      Wasn’t the photo filled suitcase actually what lead to his demise in the TX church, and not while he was still at FBC?

      1. yes but from what I heard he was relocated from the TX church to somewhere else where he continued in the ministry. This was all before I was born, so I admit the facts are secondhand.

  37. I liked this response to a Chicago newspaper…Just viewed this church’s website- there is a long glowing “biography” of the man in question, which includes:
    “On March 7, 2001, following the death of his father-in-law and mentor, Dr. Jack Hyles, Dr. Schaap was voted in as pastor of the great First Baptist Church of Hammond, Indiana, with an overwhelming 96-percent vote in favor of his becoming pastor.”

    Now that 96 percent of his sheep are about to get shorn, the last biograpy comment on the site seems rather indicative of the foolishness of his followers:
    “Those who know Pastor Jack Schaap best would describe him as a man with a passion for God”
    Sounds like Jack has a PASSION for grooming young parishioners for his adulterous sexual advances- .but what else is new in these fundamentalist, closed, male pastor worshipping sects?
    It’s becoming clear that nepotism and blind obedience to the Hyles/Schaap family has led this congregation where right wing churches always go- right into the middle of grievous, disgusting sin..

  38. Unbelievable that people are defending him. The IFB is truly rotten to the core.

    1. Sad, but true. You’d think they’d learn the lesson by now not to attack victims & innocents, but they just can’t control the rage to lash out at anyone outside.

  39. If you would stop wildly libeling this man of God for a moment, and think about this:

    The Catholic church is where the perverts are. Not the IFB. You accuse all IFBs because you are bitter. Instead you should be praying for Brother Schaap as he deals with the emotional stress of these FALSE ACCUSATIONS at a time when he is GRAVELY ILL.

    How low that his own church turns on him when he is sick. They were obviously waiting for this moment so that they could create these rumors and lies while he was not around.

    I will be praying for Jack Schaap in this time of accusation. Just like the prophets of old were rejected by the Jews, he has been rejected.

    I will be praying for the faithful at FBH, that they would stand by this man of God.

    And lastly for those who falsely accuse him, including this girl, that they would be convicted of their deceitfulness and retract these lies.

    1. You’ll be apologizing to us when he’s convicted? For the record, the people “attacking him” ARE the FBCH people. Try to stay on your meds a little more regularly.

      1. Also, from everything I’ve read, it wasn’t the girl that accused him of anything.

      2. What is the point of your constant defense of this man? Is it that hard for you to believe he has committed such a heinous sin? Especially when he goes to the levels of pointing out the indecency of MINNIE MOUSE in his sermons?? The man was sex-craved and his sin found him out.

    2. I am a daughter of a IFB pastor and I was sexually abused within the IFB for two years. There are most definitely perverts in the IFB – by the bucket-load. It is an environment bred to abuse and for perverts.

      As for Schaap, anyone could tell he was a pervert long before any of this came out. His obsession with preaching about sex was a big flashing sign warning something was desperately off.

    3. I worship God and serve Jesus to the best of my poor ability. Any man can fall or be falsely accused. But the reports here point to an elder confronted with his sin. We should seek truth with an eye to God’s glory.

    4. There isn’t any use trying to reason with people like this. Jonathon David doesn’t worship God, he worships famous fundamentalist pastors.

    6. Schapp is not a “brother in Christ”, he is not a “man of God”, he is a phony, a hypocrite, a liar, and a pervert. Why don’t you ask us to pray for Satan? The poor thing just “fell into sin”, right?

    7. And if he’s guilty? You still going to call him a man of gawd and say rotten garbage against the girl? Please, the writing has been on the wall for years that this guy had a kink somewhere.

      Remember, folks… sexual abuse is perfectly OK in the IFB, but going to the police and reporting it for the crime it is is really the evil thing. We didn’t leave because we were “bitter” (do IFBs really even understand that word?), but because the IFB has their sins backwards.

    8. Wow, another slap at the Catholic church–how refreshing. 🙄 🙄

      Before someone makes these kind of wild statements against Catholics, he or she should consult some actual statistics. He or she might be surprised by the numbers.

    9. First I’m assuming this comment is serious. If so, I am amazed at these statements. I used to half joke about IFB fundies being “cultish”, but attitudes like this start to make me believe that maybe it really is a full blown cult…

      1. This guy may or may not be serious (I kindof think he is just messing with us) but I will say whole heartedly that the IFB movement IS a cult. At least the HAC/FBC part of it is.

    10. You’re comment on the Catholic church sounds like something Schaap would have preached right before he took a photo of his junk and sent it to his girlfriend

  40. Let’s not get carried away here….
    The Roman Catholic scandals farrrrr outnumber the
    IFB ones

    ….glad Schaap is off the scene, but sad to see such sin no matter who dies it.

    1. On a per capita basis, maybe not.
      There are about a billion Catholics in the world.
      How many Independent Fundamentalist Baptists are there?
      A hundred thousand or so? Less?

      1. I’m starting to wonder if the only real perversion in the IFB is abstinence until marriage and staying faithful to a wife one loves. Sadly, it looks like cheating, prostitution, sex crimes, domestic violence, and child abuse are pretty much ignore-worthy in those “churches”. And who are the heathens and perverts again? 🙄

    3. That’s a silly thing to say.

      I’m no fan of Catholic theology. But even if your assertion is true, there’s a big difference. First, the Catholics don’t stand in their pulpits every day and scream themselves blue about the “IFB perverts.” However the IFB do.

      Second, while there’s no doubt Catholic heirarchy in different places and different times have tried to sweep their undeniable problem under the rug, the average Catholic I meet is honest and saddened by the truth that there are pedophiles and adulterers among their clergy (though often there is dispute about the prevelancy). The average IFB person I meet is shocked, SHOCKED, that you could even suggest that such a monstrosity would exist in the pure New Testament Baptist Church and you’re making that up and he was falsly accused and I don’t care if there were pictures I don’t judge the Man of God and even if he did he was seduced by that 10 year old little whore.

      Big differences–and I don’t mean any kind of approval on Catholic doctrine when I say that if the Lord doesn’t come back soon those differences will be a big reason the Catholics are still around when the IFB is a footnote in Christian history.

    4. One other thing…Roman Catholic priests don’t tell you how to live down to the tiniest detail, claim you’re not godly if you don’t dress a certain way, or rant and rave from the pulpit about standards and convictions.

      IFB pastors claim that they are right about everything, and you’re wrong if you don’t agree with them completely.

      To me, that makes it more glaringly hypocritical when they are caught in sin. A priest demands nothing of his congregation…an IFB pastor demands everything.

      The priest vs. IFB pastor argument doesn’t compute.

  41. Ew. Ew ew ew ew ewwwwwww to that sermon. Holy crap. Any time a pastor’s sermon starts mentioning sex (unless it’s like the story of Tamar, which my poor pastor covered a few months ago), run for it. Holy crap.
    I am very glad that he is being removed from a place where he can take advantage of young girls. Thank God, literally.

  42. “Lake County Sheriff John Buncich said his department was notified by church leaders of allegations that are sexual in nature.”

    Good on them! As other posters have said, I am for once applauding the actions of this church. They have done something right. Good on them.

  43. Here’s a sample of what the “followers” are saying on facebook. These are grown adults!

    ‘Anybody else that wants to criticize and accuse my pastor can just unfriend me right now. Honestly I don’t want to be associated with someone who judges a man of God. I wont believe it unless I hear him say it so all the newspaper ads in the world aren’t gonna change my mind. Innocent til proven guilty! Isn’t that a saying in this country? Ya thought so’

    or this

    ‘Ok here’s my rant for the day….grow up people!!! Wat are we freaking junior highers???? Let’s hear one rumor about something or someone and believe it??? Ya how about you learn the truth before just assuming someone is guilty. How about looking at their track record and all the many lives they’ve changed and see if that persons character matches up to these charges! I think you’d find u are wrong. Some people just want to believe the worst in a person and tear them down no matter what it takes. All u people tearing down a man of God when u have absolutely no idea whether it’s true or not….ya ur gonna have a thing or 2 comin to u when u get to heaven. You think you can criticize and accuse the man of God and ur not getting punished for that? Geez people don’t let one persons criticism change ur whole view of someone. Dr Hyles went thro this same crap of ppl being immature and jealous. Grow up and get over urself!!!’

    I am seeing these types of responses all over facebook and beyond.

    1. Because the IFB preachers promote one another’s greatness to the point of people thinking they are untouchable…and they believe it.

      1. They also seem deluded into thinking that Schaap is very well known worldwide or even nationally.

    2. Ha that is too funny… because it’s very clear that “Dr.” Hyles problems were rooted in people’s immaturity and jealousy 🙄

    3. In response to that last facebook post, I would say that we have been watching his character – there were warning signs years ago for anyone who might have been watching and wasn’t drinking the koolaid. This sermon is a prime example of the Schaap brand of crazy!

  44. The scary part is that if there are no criminal charges filed… he could rise, phoenix like, to a place of prominence on some Ministry’s Board of directors, Missions board or taking his preaching directly to China instead of merely having it broadcast over to China.

    1. I’m somewhat theologically amused by the fact that that newspaper’s Internet handle is “posttrib.”

  46. The teenage and young adult drones from this church used to come door-to-door to our neighborhood in Chicago in the late 80’s to try and save our souls (they stopped in the 90’s when our neighborhood gentrified). I felt so sorry for them – they were wasting precious moment of life lost in religious delusion. My hope is that this scandal will cause members of this church to stop and evaluate their involvement in this church. It probably won’t change a thing, but I think it is better to live life as an optimist. After all, many former believers have come to see Christianity as bullshit.

        1. Probably because he referred to Christianity, a belief for which many of us would be willing to go to the grave without denouncing, as a foul expletive.

          I do hope that students who attended HAC will reevaluate their experience there, but not to reject Christianity but rather to reject man-made traditions and to embrace the true Gospel and the glorious grace of Christ minus all our self-righteousness.

        2. Of course…angry, juvenile name-calling (except when I called “Preacher” a tool ;)) is always the best way to deal with someone who doesn’t agree with you. It’s also very effective in trying to convince those with doubts that there is merit and truth in real Christianity…

  47. All I can say is: good.

    If Schaap was diddling kids, then he deserves a trial and a quick hanging if they find him guilty.

    The IFB churches bring this stuff on themselves because they won’t police their own ranks – AND THEY HAVE HAD MANY OPPORTUNITIES TO DO SO. I read five or so years ago how the Baptists had a chance to set up a computer database of pastors and youth pastors with criminal records and the Synod voted it down. THIS is why people leave…there is one law for the clergy, another for the laypeople.

    The criminality needs to end.

    1. Synod? Do you know anything about Baptist polity? There are certainly a lot of uninformed morons on this site?

      2. He might mean the Southern Baptist Convention I think some in those ranks have called for a sex offender database. Nothing really has come of it yet.

      3. Real Christian of you….your snobby response is why people are fleeing both the IFB and regular religion in America; too many assholes in church.

      4. This might shock you, “Preacher”, but the world doesn’t revolve around Baptists. He is referring to the SBC and used the term “synod” as a synonym for centralized church council or decision-making body…you incredible tool!

    3. CLA covers each other’s backsides. I’d like to know when the CLA will go to bat for a victim and seek strict justice..can’t say I can recall any stories in their newsletters that resemble “CLA defended the rights of a teen girl who was molested by her pastor and he is now behind bars” umm nope. Can’t recall any! But CLA is always on call to fly out to help protect the ones ‘allegedly’ committing the crimes.

  50. I just feel sorry for that poor kid and her family. That kind of manipulation causes long term hurts. As for him being tempted; I don’t give a damn if she was standing in front of him buck naked. He’s the effin’ adult and he’s supposed to act like it. I hope that waste of oxygen winds up in jail for a veerrryyyy long time and that he finds out first hand what it’s like to manipulated by someone else. 😡

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