Odds and Ends

Reader Submitted Photo: Flags Of Our Founders

211 Comments

Here we see the newly renamed H.A. Ironsides dormitory on the campus of Bob Jones University. Everyone can breath a sigh of relief that the KKK associations of the previous name that adorned this building have all been wiped away.

But wait a moment…what’s the on the seventh window from the left on the second floor?

Ah. Well it’s good to see that someone is keeping the grand old traditions alive on campus. That display must make the minority students on campus feel incredibly welcome. Well done.

211 thoughts on “Reader Submitted Photo: Flags Of Our Founders”

  1. A Confederate flag is not in and of itself bad, and it is legalistic of you to imply otherwise. I do not fly the Confederate flag personally, but there is nothing wrong with someone doing so.

    1. So it is your contention that flying this flag would in fact make the minority students on campus feel incredibly welcome?

        1. Ah. Then I don’t think we disagree much at all.

          What is a flag? A flag is nothing. It’s a bit of cloth. But what when we use our liberty to fly it to give our brother offense then I think a legitimate use of I Corinthians 8 comes into play.

          And that is not nothing. That’s something worth pausing to consider.

        2. I will also add this:

          The difference between myself now and the fundamentalist I used to be is this: I’m now willing to give you the space to be wrong.

          So if you want to fly the rebel flag in the window of a dormitory that was named for a KKK leader on a campus that has been plagued by racial issues…then go for it! And I’ll exercise my own liberty by putting pictures of it online so everyone can marvel at your wrongheadedness. 😀

        3. to be fair to BJU, the picture is poking fun of some southern student. Somehow I doubt the room’s resident is a hypocritical part of an administrative effort to rid the dorm of racial undertones. And I almost appreciate the school giving the students to make a semi controversial statement. Normally they tend to enforce blandness.

        4. On that point, Samuel, I’d simply ask how long a rainbow flag or a poster of a current movie would last in the same window.

          But who knows, for all we know the student was told to take the flag down 5 minutes after the picture was taken. All we know is all we know. And we know that it was up there long enough for someone to be able to get a photo.

        5. Forget even a rainbow flag. Try displaying a Gaither Vocal Band poster/icon in your window and find out what they think is a real problem and what they don’t think is one. I would assume eventually they were told to take this down (PCC I know won’t let you display anything in your window). I think we all know what would get you more demerits, and which are more morally offensive.

        6. and if the answers is somewhere between a flash of a camera and a decade, I’d still think that BJU was erring on the side of freedom of expression… which (as much of a joke that may be) is at best a step in the right direction, at worse a kink in the system, but still nothing more than a superficial irony…

        7. I need to get this sleep out of my eyes and wake up abit before I comment.

          Are you actually comparing a rainbow (wicked cause) flag to a confederate flag? It’s unfortunate that the dormitory was named for a KKK leader, but exactly what does that have to do with the confederate flag? Should I not fly the American flag because Obama’s justice department has a policy not to enforce discrimination cases against blacks when they have terrorized whites, as in the incident in PA when black panthers showed up with weapons at a voting site threatening white voters?

          Darrell, I love you friend but I don’t think I have seen you ever go quite this far across the line. The fact is that there are wonderful folks in the south that love their heritage and our proud of their heritage (well as much of it as they can be)so while it may be a nice sentiment to make minorities welcome on this campus, I think you may have slighted alot of wonderful southern folks and their traditions.

          Btw, I wouldn’t fly the flag in my dormitory room either for the reasons you mentioned, but I wouldn’t try to tell my neighbors what to do.

        8. Take a deep breath, Greg. 🙂

          My reference to the rainbow flag was only a comparison to the rebel flag to the extent that it demonstrates a point about “free speech” on BJU campus.

          Samuel’s contention was that being able to fly the rebel flag was a good thing to the extent that it shows that that BJU administration support free expression. My question about the rainbow flag was simply to demonstrate that the ideal of “free expression” really isn’t the issue here.

          That’s not to say that a private religious college _should_ be forced to allow every form of expression and it’s not a commentary on the rainbow flag itself. I only used it for purposes of demonstrating a specific point about the attitude of the administration towards free expression in general. Does that make sense?

        11. I see your point, but I wish you would have used some other example as a comparison. Homosexuality is clearly and empahtically forbidden in the sacred scriptures, states rights? Not so much.

        13. I love how people freak out at the mere mention of homosexuality. To have freedom means that you must allow freedom that you otherwise find abhorrent. You do not have freedom so long as you oppress someone else. If you truly value your religious freedom you’d stop freaking out at the mere mention of a rainbow flag. Life is bigger than that.

          Favorite quote: “If you don’t like gay marriage don’t get gay married”

        14. RobM- the Homosexual “rainbow” flag does indeed represent a wicked cause.

          MarkR- marriage is not a “right”. It is a sacrament established by God that can only exist between a man and a woman. Furthermore, the only rights and freedoms which exist are those bestowed by God. There is nothing man can do to change that.

        16. Yes, it is wicked. The rainbow flag is the “gay pride” flag. It is wicked for a man to lie with a man or a woman to lie with a woman, and it is wicked to celebrate and be proud of such behavior.

          Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:24-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; 1 Timothy 1:8-10

          1 Corinthians 6:9-11 shows the possibility of redemption for those who accept Christ and abandon the homosexual lifestyle. All sinful lifestyles must be abandoned and turned from in order to live for Christ. This is not the same thing as being sinless, which we cannot be in this lifetime.

          The true meaning of the rainbow is found in the book of Genesis, where God promises Noah that He will not destroy the earth by flood again.

    2. Amen. I have a Confederate battle flag AND own Haley’s biography on Malcolm X. Why? Because it is ALL American History.

      1. As an Australian and a history major, I have read a lot of things that have been done. They are true and they are history, and there is no point denying them. There is no good in denying them either.

        But there is a big difference between aknowledging truth and glorifying it. I would never go around glorifying, for example, the White Australia Policy. I will aknowledge it is truth, it happened, but I won’t glory in it. It was not a proud moment in Australian history.

        Honestly, you’d have to be pretty poorly educated to hold up all of a nation’s history as being wonderful just because you love that nation. No human is without sin, and neither is the story of any nation. Some people are just plain foolish though.

        Love the Eureka Stockade flag, though 😉

      2. Other signs that were real in history you also might not want to have along with the rebel flag: “Coloreds not welcome”, various Klan paraphernalia, etc. Mere historical realities don’t justify perpetuation of those wrongs.

        1. I do have “White Officers” and “Black Officers” only signs for school. They are educational as it means more to a child to see/touch history than read it solely from a book. Meaning of symbols vary from person to person. Since I grew up in the North, the Confederate battle flag is not loaded with the same symbolism as it may hold for someone living in Mississippi. I don’t think that simply by owning something controversial for educational purposes is the equivalent of condoning the meaning behind it. I own Spanish Fascist helmets, shemaghs from the mujahideen, Soviet era militaria etc. This does not mean I believe or endorse these groups. What I do not understand is why someone would want to place a target on themselves by flying something controversial, be it the stars and bars or something else. I can sympathize with the South’s war for independence without flying a flag many people believe carries racist under/overtones. Plus it certainly doesn’t help that wicked masonic organizations like the KKK use the Confederate symbol, much like the Jains in India used the swastika ages before it was adopted as the symbol of the 3rd Reich. Symbolism is such an interesting topic, think of how much symbolism exists in IFB circles…totems like the KJV, fish pins, etc. etc…..One could write a book!

        2. I do see the use of vile symbols in museums & educational formats. Displayed as a symbol of pride in a window is ridiculous.

      3. Yes, it’s history, but so is the Crusades and the Black Plague. Learning about it is good, trying to re-live it is worrisome.

      1. Correction: Just saw that the dorm was re-named. It was still Graves when I attended (and it will ALWAYS be Graves to me!).

  3. You know that has to make Dr. Phil Kidd so proud to see the next generation carrying on such a noble Southern tradition. Maybe they’ll all get together on campus for a gospel singing by the light of an illuminated Cross as well.
    Ach du lieber Himmel, it must be the Ghost of Bibb Graves… 🙄

  4. Cosmetic changes on a turd, or lipstick on a pig. You can make changes that blatantly stick out (banning interracial dating, building names), but you can’t polish up an institution that has taught and continues to accept & coddle racism.

      1. Yulp! And I was served something like 8 to 10 of those per week in the Dale Horton Auditorium for 4 years.

      1. This reminds me of Luther’s comment that Erasmus’ teaching and eloquence was like sh*t on silver dishes.

    3. The daily show had a segment once called “polish that turd” I’d love for them to bring that back.

  5. You know, my first thought was – this is college and probably someone in the admin thought it would cause legal problems to “inhibit free speech” by asking the student to take it down.

    Then I remembered we were talking about BJU – there’s no reason they can’t tell the student to take the flag down … they restrict everything else. I’d love to hear the university’s response to this picture. You know that they didn’t just miss it with the tattletale environment they create.

    the truth is, there is no good response to this.

    1. Yes, Megan. Your comment made me laugh out loud. BJU is absolutely not worried at all about any legal problems in regards to how they treat students or faculty and staff. I know that for a certainty from first-hand experience.

    2. Get a national network television producer to call and ask them that question and that flag would be down in a minute. Seriously, that’s what made WMUU quit airing the radio program put on by Hephzibah House founder.

  7. In 2005, I had a roommate at BJU who displayed a large rebel flag across her bed all year. Another roommate had a small calendar with photos of Orlando Bloom, which was promply confiscated.

  8. Maybe if BJ would make an official rule banning confederate flags it would convince people that they are moving beyond their past. How about it Dr. Stephen? I’ll be holding my breath! 😳

  9. A neighbor for awhile was flying a Confederate flag. My hubby said to me that it made the whole neighborhood look bad, and our next door neighbor was saying that too. I guess a lot of people in the neighborhood said that. After awhile they took it down. Nothing like the pressure of most your neighbors being MAD at you. I would think that even if there was no outright ban, if it was said by faculty how wrong that kind of racism is, and students for the most part also thought that, things like the battle flag wouldn’t stay up for long.

    1. Big IF. More likely the BJ administration (if not staff) would prefer to fly the stars & bars than to condemn it.

      1. Perhaps they would if that flag in the window was the a copy of the actual Stars and Bars. The one in the window would be known as “The Battle Flag of the Confederacy,” with the design also seen on “The Stainless Banner” over a white field, and later on the “Blood-stained Banner” across from a red bar on a white field.

        If you want to see something like the actual Stars and Bars on BJU’s campus, check out Georgia’s state flag near the bridge.

  10. Well, canlt say that I got into this tread, but wanted to send a shout out and I hope you have a wonderful time worshioping the Lord i n Spirit in and in thruth both tomorrwo and everu day. Went to a play agout Noah and it was awesome! Blessed my hear. Sleeping pills are starting to work so I will bow out. God Bless you all! 🙂

  11. I’m going to make the case that students should be allowed to display any flag they want, in the interests of academic freedom and free speech (yes, I know that BJU’s policies are nothing like that).

    Of course, at a college with BJU’s history, it’s a bit more distressing to see confederate symbols than it would be at a typical liberal arts university.

    And the fact that it should not be prohibited takes nothing away from the stupidity and obnoxiousness of actually doing it. But students doing stupid and obnoxious things is nothing new in the world.

    1. I would agree Gary. Let them keep the flag up, then see what happens. In an academic environment (I know this is BJU, but nevertheless) if other students feel offended by the flag why not have them approach those in the room with their concerns, or even have an open forum where there can be honest debate (again I know this is BJU). It would be better if the flag-flyers took it down because they were convinced it needed to be done rather than from an order from the administration.

      1. I understand this POV, guys, but in open discussion, won’t the flag-displaying student KNOW that he/she has the tacit support of the BJU administration?
        And I must give a shout out for my late beloved pastor, gone these thirty years, who, despite being a BJU grad of the time of the civil ights movement, nevertheless was a Christian first. My home church had a racially-mixed couple who served prominently, in the choir, and in other ministries. When the husband had a terrible injury, my pastor led the way in doing all the church could to support this family. I am so pleased that at least ONE fundy minister in past truly WAS a minister. Also, he tried to talk me out of going to HAC. While I wish I had listened, his preference for me was BJU. 😳 But back then, it did seem to be the lesser of two evils! Now, not so sure….

        2. I understand but I guess my point was I’d rather see Johnny Reb take his flag down because he was convinced he needed to do so (or even keep it up because he is not convinced) rather than an order from the administration because CNN just arrived at the BJU gate ready to do a story.

        3. Well, yes, Stan. Of course that would be the better way. I hope it is possible. One would like to think so!

    2. I understand and endorse the idea of dragging BJU into the real academic world where freedom of expression and inquiry are real values.

      But is there any likelihood that this would happen?

      It completely rubs me the wrong way that they call themselves a university.

      Any educational institution that cannot tolerate intellectual dissent is not a university.

      Any educational institution that has so many official dogmas on ideas is not a university.

      1. Absolutely, they are not a University but an indoctrination center. When one is instructed in “What” to think instead of “How” to think, the institution forfeits it’s claims regarding Academic instruction. Such institutions are Indoctrination centers at best and Cult training centers at worst.

        1. There is also a wrinkle of idiomatic Canadian English at work here.

          In Canada if you go to college you are not going to university. It could be a junior college, a private business college or one of the many, many feeder colleges that give you full university credit once you transfer.

          Going to university here is going to a full degree-granting institution that has been chartered by the provincial government in which the university resides.

          There are very few private universities in Canada. The only one that I can think of is Trinity Western University, which is run by the Evangelical Free Church of Canada.

          The EFC is a conservative evangelical denomination that BJU would consider apostate and heathen.

          Students do not have to be Christians to attend. Students are expected to live by Christian standards of lifestyle while attending.

        2. Exactly, that is exactly my point. Indoctrination is extremely different from education. in fact it is exactly the opposite. You do “learn” something, but actually counters what real education/academia is all about.

        3. I must have been blesses: my teachers there actually taught me how to think. But now, come to think of it, most of them were eventually asked to leave….

    3. When BJU actually becomes an academic/intellectually free environment we can have this conversation. Unfortunately they are anti-intellectual and anything but academic.

      But I do agree. They should let this flag and any other flag a student wants to wave stay. Why not? But you know they won’t do that.

  12. Well.

    What’s is wrong with displaying the flag of the confederacy?

    If you say “because it stands for supporting slavery”, then that is a good reason for not displaying it.

    However, many people (decent folk, not racist in the least) sincerely believe that the US Civil War (and they usually give it another name) was fought over states’ rights. If this is what people believe, then displaying the flag is not a racist statement.

    I *do* believe that the federal government has trampled on the rights of states, but I do not believe that the US Civil War was fought over states’ rights… that was post-war revisionism in the South.

    So, maybe not everyone is making a racist statement when he displays the flag of the confederacy.

    With all of that said, given the past history of BJU and blacks, it would be the wiser course of action to refrain from displaying the flag, because it is likely to be misunderstood there.

    1. Here, here. Many people are STILL under the false assumption that we had a Civil War…we DID NOT! A civil war is a war between two or more factions within a nation for control of the government. This happened in England, France, Russia following WW1, etc. The Confederates did not attempt to “take over” the Federal government. This was a war for independence from an abusive, bureaucratic federal government. The mass media in this country has bought into a wholesale lie believing that slavery was the main issue about the war. This is untrue. The wrongfully lionized Lincoln couldn’t give two figs for the future of the black people in the United States until his side was losing. He then made it a political issue to shore up support from England and France. Lincoln was a wicked man who has the blood of tens of thousands on his hands. He violated the Constitution by suspending the right to habeas corpus, and he forcefully conscripted men against their will to fight for his illegal cause. Slavery is a dark stain on our country’s history to be sure. However, the needless deaths of hundreds of thousands to prevent states seceding from the Union is evil also. For what purpose? Like most wars, no one can be certain after counting such costs.

      1. You seem to be a student of the War Between States (or whatever you prefer to call it).
        Have you read what the Southern newspapers and politicians were saying in 1860 and 1861? Slavery was the main issue. There were other issues, but slavery was the make-or-break issue in secession. They fought for states’ rights, yes, but states’ rights to do what? The states that seceded and formed the Confederacy all said it was to preserve their right to maintain and protect the instituion of “Negro” slavery.

        There were certainly other points of conflict between the Southern states and the Union, but they wouldn’t have fought a war over them if slavery had not been at issue.

        I agree with you that from the Union point of view, it wasn’t that simple. Lincoln himself said that he would preserve the Union without abolishing slavery if he could do so (he didn’t want the “border states” to join the Confederacy, for one thing). Many white Northerners expressed the view that black American’s rights were not worth fighting a war for (see, for example, the antidraft riots in New York City). Others believed, as perhaps you do, that it should be left to each state to decide.

        2. I agree with you, Big Gary: If you read what was written at the time of the fighting (whatever one chooses to call it), it WAS all about slavery… and as for being for “state’s rights”, the Confederate government was far more abusive of the rights of it’s states than the Union ever was.

          Mr. Lincoln was, from my studying, a moderate. He found slavery abhorrent, but he did not think that blacks and whites should be equal. One proposed solution was to ship them back to Africa. But the new Republican party had a large contingent of radical anti-slavery groups.

          Personally, I think Lincoln was a great president at an unfortunate time, but I know that in many conservatives circles, he is considered the first one to trample state’s rights, similar to the posting of “paul dangerstein” above.

    2. It was the “state’s right” to allow slavery they were fighting for. You just can’t divorce slavery from the primary cause.

        1. Don’t I know it. States Rights my A. You can’t end there, you gotta say which “States Right” was being violated, but they won’t own up to the fact it was “States Rights to allow slavery”. And there just no such thing as a States Right to allow slavery in any moral universe.

        3. No guys! It’s only White People that get to decide if something is racist or not! Of course they can tell whether anyone should be offended by whether they were trying to be offensive. Since they’re definitely not.racist.at.all, because that’s a bad thing to be, obviously they didn’t intend to do something racist, so no one can claim to be hurt by it for any reason at all!

          See how easy it is? 🙄

    3. Sorry, but you have it backwards. The idea that the war was purely about slavery is due to post-war revisionism in the North. To the victor goes the spoils, and that includes writing the history.

  13. I can’t see the flag… I feel like I’ve looked closely at both pictures. Is it quite faint, or am I missing something obvious?

    2. I couldn’t really see the flag but took Darrell’s word for it.

      However, I DID see the white piano. It exists in the infamous picture as well as in my soul. (okay, that was overly dramatic). :mrgreen:

    3. There’s a good deal of glare on the window in the close-up shot, but if you look from the right angle in just the right light, you can see there’s a Confederate battle flag hung up across the window inside the room.

      Actually, I believe I’ve read that that flag was the flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. The Stars and Bars was the official flag of the Confederacy, but it doesn’t have the visual “oomph” of the Army of Northern Virginia battle flag.

  14. Well, one answer would be for everybody reading this to post the photo of the Confederate flag on their Facebook page, identifying it as being in a dorm window at BJU. Write letters to the BJU administration asking them to forbid the flying of the Confederate flag on the grounds of its racist overtones. If they act consistently with their own history, BJU will give reasons that they ought to allow the flag to be displayed or they will ignore objections, until CNN does a story on it, and then they will quietly order all Confederate flags to be taken down.

  15. After reading all the comments here, I’ll repeat a statement that I have said here before, and probably will again.

    “The folks that yell the loudest about *tolerance* are usually the most intolerant of all.”

    Please read Josh Mcdowell’s book from a few years ago, “The New Tolerance.” Most of you have fallen head over heels into political correctness, it’s time to climb out.

    1. would be better stated that the people that complain about tolerance are the ones who demand hate & actually offensive items ideas be tolerated equally with innocent ones.

    2. Hee Hee…. when I saw this post go up, I immediately thought of you, Greg. I know this is a sensitive button with you, so I KNEW this would bring some interesting reading today. 😉

    3. Amen, Greg!

      I’m a Class of ’89 graduate of Richland High School in a suburb of Fort Worth, TX. Our team is called the Rebels. From it’s founding sometime in the ’60’s until the mid-’90’s, “Dixie” was played at every football game and Confederate Battle Flags were EVERYWHERE. Seven black kids attended RHS when I was a sophomore. The father of one of those seven kids wrote a letter to the NAACP to complain about the flag, and a huge effort was underway to “Save the Flag!” I recall passing out “Save the Flag!” bumper stickers. The seven black kids were interviewed, and their unanimous testimony was the flag is about nothing more than school spirit and none of them are every made to feel like second class citizens. The issue went away. The flag remained.

      I had a “Save the Flag!” bumper sticker on the back window of my Chevette right next to the bumper sticker of my local Christian music station (we Fort Worth Fundies are generally rather progressive). One day at the mall, I returned to my car in the parking lot to find a post-it-note chastising me for being a Christian and supporting such a racist symbol as the Confederate Battle Flag. I noticed for the first time there were no references to the school at all on the sticker, just a picture of the flag and the slogan. Darrel will be glad to learn that I realized, “I guess they have a point,” and removed the flag sticker. In my older, wiser days, I sometimes wonder if I removed the right sticker. Maybe I should have removed the other one?

      Several years after I graduated, a generation arose who knew not the classes of the late ’80’s. By the mid-’90’s, one day I learned the flag had been redesigned. But the identity as the Rebels remains.

      Now that I’m a Presbyterian, I was pleasantly surprised to learn the Christian origin of the cross bars. It’s called St. Andrew’s Cross–aka, the flag of Scotland.

      I understand not wanting to offend African-Americans with an ugly reminder of the chattel slavery of early America. But there is another issue related to an entire region of a country in which there are folks who still have pride in their regional heritage, never intending to giving a thought to promoting slavery. That’s why some have responded with the slogan, “Heritage Not Hate.” There is more to the south than the fact that they practiced slavery. A more balanced understanding of history among those offended by a symbol would help.

      1. I’ll just make my fried catfish, hushpuppies, cole slaw, and sweet tea just as my Southern Grandmother made them and taught me to make them, and will let that be how I embrace my Southern heritage. 😉

        Well that and the fact that if you heard me talk, there’s no doubt of where I came from. 😉 (you might even still hear a little fundy in my accent, too…. dagnabbit). :mrgreen:

        1. Yes, there are some southern traditions I love, but racism is one I reject.

          I probably live to the south of almost everybody here (26 degrees latitude). The last battle of the Civil War was faught a few mile from here. Lee had already surrendered by then, but news traveled slowly in 1865. So that battle was even more futile than most. But, at least here in South Texas, most of us have moved past it after 146 years. We’re over it now. (Notice that I said “most of us,” not all of us.)

        2. I believed all that crap about the confederate flag being flown because of historical significance until I learned that, except for Mississippi, every state that flies the Confederate flag or has it incorporated into its own state flag did not adopt it until the historic Brown vs Board of Education court battle over segregation in 1954. So yes, the Confederate flag is used as a racist statement. Period. It became a prominent fixture on government buildings as an expression of the advocacy of segregation. That is part of its historic significance.

      2. You can’t come up with a slogan to rectify what hte confederate flag stands for, and rectify the injustices it stands for from it’s first use/inception. Slavery through the klan that flag represents oppression and racism.

        1. Widespread display of the Confederate battle flag came about in the 1950s and 60s as a backlash against civil rights legislation and court decisions such as Brown vs. Board of Education of Topeka. So the motivation wasn’t so much to commemorate a war from a century before as to mythologize resistance to equal rights.

        2. Didn’t think of that motivation, but it’s also a despicable one too, so I think my point stands. I love the Dukes of Hazzard but their “legitimizing” a very illegitimate symbol has always bothered me.

      3. Seven Black kids, out of an entire highschool (the rest of which I could reasonably assume was quite white, yes?), did not say a Confederate flag was a problem for them when the entire school (community?) was rallying for it? Shocking.

        Even if they did have a problem with it, do you think they would be honest? When they could get the shit beat out of them and probably no one would stand up for them? This was a mere two decades after the Civil Rights Act. Lynchings were still happening in their lifetime. Be serious.

        2. Furthermore, I daresay there were no lynchings in suburban Fort Worth, Texas in the late 1980’s. That’s just a tad far fetched.

          I prefer BASSENCO’s fact-based criticism of the use of the flag. But that only applies to a statewide, political issue, not individual motives of particular people.

    4. Evidence that Demands a Verdict and More Evidence that Demands a Verdict were not good reads when I read them the first time.

      I drew that conclusion having taken only 1 philosophy class in Bible College. Majoring in philosophy didn’t change my mind.

      Has his thinking gotten better?

  16. Please tell me you all know the Civil War was fought for state’s rights, as opposed to slavery. Slavery was part of the propaganda. The war wasn’t about slavery. It was about the state’s constitutional rights to govern themselves. I’m a true blue Northener from Indiana, I’m not biased, I’m just saying…Confederate flag is not that big of a deal. Hell, compared to the church I went to, Bob Jones is a freakin strip club lol. I wouldn’t worry too much about the flag yo.

    1. Well, if you asked the black troops who fought for the North, I’d doubt that they would agree with you.

      For some, politicians, maybe it might have been for state’s rights, but for some of those who fought even with threats of execution, if caught, from the Confederates, it was more personal.

    2. Please tell me you aren’t one of the people screaming against the clear facts of history that the Civil War was fought to maintain a “state’s right” to allow slavery.

      States do not have the right to allow slavery.

    3. I guess I’m not as up on my history as I thought. Would you care to name one or two primary historical sources that support your historiography?

    4. “Please tell me you all know the Civil War was fought for state’s rights”

      Specifically, the right for states to maintain legal slavery.

      1. no… their rights to secede, to have control over their tariffs, etc. The war wasn’t about slavery until 1863 when Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation to win peoples’ favor for the upcoming election.

        1. Wrooooong.

          Check a couple of the rebel states’ declarations of secession:
          http://americancivilwar.com/documents/causes_mississippi.html

          “Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery– the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.”

          http://americancivilwar.com/documents/causes_texas.html
          She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery– the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits– a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time.

          And so on, ad nauseam.

          I can understand the desire not to admit that your ancestors were either evil slaveowning greedheads or dupes of evil slaveowning greedheads, but it just makes you look like a sap to those of us who actually know history.

        2. 2 out of 11 does not a majority make…and I happen to have copies of all the documents in question. I use them when discussing the REASONS (plural) of the Civil War (Slavery comes in at 4th or 5th)

    5. @Viper, I agree. I’m surprised at how many readers here view the Civil War this way. Less than 10% of southerners even owned slaves. An entire generation of young men weren’t fighting so that the rich people down the road could keep their slaves. U.S. Grant owned slaves himself. I was a Confederate Civil War reenactor in the North for six years because I think that every one is taught a very biased history of Confederates. Most people who are flying the Confederate flag don’t have a racist bone in their body. Of course, I would probably fly the Stars and Bars instead of the Battle Flag. It’s a shame that AFTER the civil war, the battle flag became a symbol of racism to people. From reading these comments, I would probably not fly it because of seeing how offensive it is to them, regardless of how ignorant it shows that they are. If it’s that offensive, I’d keep mine private while still doing my best to teach a balanced view of history.

      1. “It’s a shame that AFTER the civil war, the battle flag became a symbol of racism to people.”

        I think that’s because the KKK and even White Supremacists today carry the flag to support their beliefs.

        It is a shame that its become a symbol of racism, but that’s just because the racists use it as a symbol.

  17. BUT DARRELL DID YOU PRIVATELY CONFRONT THE STUDENT IN THAT DORM ROOM ABOUT THE CONFEDERATE FLAG BEFORE YOU POSTED THIS PICTURE????

    😉

    1. Nice job! I assume it’s still coming, cause people that post that kind of sentiment don’t read the comments to realize they’ve already been parodied! 🙂

  20. I have a confession to make. When I was at Fundy U, I bought a big ol’ gold Confederate Flag ring. I would wear it until some well meaning son of the South would comment on how awesome it was, and then I would explain how I wore it to remind myself of those who put financial prosperity ahead of righteousness to the point of enslaving human brothers for greed. You would not believe the hatred I received for that…but it was fun!

  21. To all of the Confederate apologists on this site:

    Please read Alexander Stephen’s (Confederate vice-president) famous speech The Cornerstone Address and then return here to argue that the Southern secession had nothing to do with slavery.
    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1861stephens.asp

    It is fairly clear, when you read primary sources and not modern neo-Confederate revisionists, that slavery was the root cause of the Civil War and this was acknowledged on both sides.

    I doubt that this post will do any good. I have found that Confederate apologists see any facts which contradict their world-view to be part of some nefarious Yankee plot.

    *I was born and raised in the South. I am eligible for membership in the Sons of Confederate Veterans though I will never join. I want to present the view of someone who is a Southerner but who also recognizes that the Union was right.

      1. Thanks. You flatter me. 😳

        I violated my personal rule on this post. I try to never discuss the Civil War, the Calvinism debate and politics in an online forum. It can get stupid pretty quick.

        1. I am worse. I answered a Petty comment about libraries the other day with a petty comment. At least when you break YOUR self-control issues, it is intelligent. Mine was just… Pointless. 🙄

        2. Sorry to disappoint you but if you go search in the forum (no I won’t link to it! 😆 ) you might find where I got into a very lengthy argument over whether or not America should have a king. 🙄

          On another site I got into a fairly lengthy argument over why the CapitalOne Vikings have English accents.
          🙄 x 2

          I am trying to do better. :mrgreen:

        5. I, too, am anti-king, but believe I would do admirably as queen.
          As for Vikings, just a tad too unwashed for me. I hope to be queen, you know.

    4. It’s mind boggling that the beliefs set forth in that speech were once commonplace. The whole failure of the Confederacy hinged on it as well because England would not officially recognize them and back their bid at secession while slavery was in place. Though it should be noted that Lincoln and many abolitionists of the time firmly believed in equal but separate – hence ghe Liberian initiative (to send former slaves back to Africa).

    5. Gosh, AoW. As you describe them, these Confederate Apologists sound exactly like Fundamentalists to me.

  22. Having BJU change a stance, like any fundy institution is a slower process than evolution itself. Look how long it took them to discover reading the bible for 2000 years.. oh look, inter racial dating is ok!!!.

    1. oops.. correction, i didnt mean to say 2000, i probably should have said since 1611 kjv, or the appearence of the scofield reference bible.. my bad.

  23. My wife is of German decent. She longs for a time when Germany was prosperous and was allowed control of its own destiny, instead of being controlled by the EU. She is a big supporter of individual state’s rights. When she flies her Nazi flag, it has nothing to do with the Holocaust or World War II (of which few of you would understand due to brainwashing by the liberal media), it has to do with pride in prosperity and the remembrance of when her homeland was once able to determine its own destiny. It’s about national rights and heritage, nothing else.

    1. I’m assuming this is just brilliant parody! Especially with including actual facts like Germany is getting killed by all the other nations of the EU constantly undermining Germany’s solid economy.

    2. “(of which few of you would understand due to brainwashing by the liberal media)”

      LOL! Awesome parody!

  24. Jesus laid aside His honored position in heaven for us. Paul laid aside his position and prestige as a Pharisee to follow Christ. Moses laid aside the privilege of being a prince of Egypt to be part of God’s people.

    Sometimes to be a follower of Christ we must lay aside those things of which we are proud, our rights, our heritage, our distinctions, our preferences, and say with John the Baptist, “I must decrease, and HE must increase.”

    My love for others will inform my choices. They might be a Christian brother who would be hurt or an unsaved person who would be turned off to Christ because of the thing to which I am clinging.

    This is a hard, hard thing to do; it seems almost unreasonable, this dying to self. It also strikes us ex-fundies wrong because in the IFB we were always being told to give up stuff. But my motivation in giving up something like Jesus or Paul isn’t to be separate or try to avoid the world. I would be giving something up out of LOVE for others. Like Paul, I would “consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things.” (Phil. 3)

  25. Sorry…whenever I see someone proudly displaying the confederate flag, all I can think of is a sore looser who isn’t over it after 150+ years. The symbolism it is filled with now should be enough to retire it. Just like the swastika! You can go on and on about heritage until you are blue in the face. Not gonna buy it!

    2. I’ve said many times, rebel flag lovers should send their tax money to DC every Apr 15, and store the lame flag where their brain should be since that is unused space.

      1. +1 for AC reference

        Is this before or after Cesare was screaming “Give me the Apple! Its mine not yours! I want the Apple!” over and over and over while you’re climbing around the castle?

  26. I just want to know whom the dorm was formerly named for and did BJU expressly change it for. His KKK ties?

    1. Put your cursor on the dorm picture and you’ll see Darrell’s comment on Bibb Graves, once a high official in the KKK. As for why it was changed, the general opinion is that, yes, they changed it to get rid of the KKK ties that this gentleman represented.

      1. It’s kind of ironic that they would change the name of the dorm because of Graves’ ties to the KKK, and yet not change the name of the university.

  27. I was a sophomore at BJU in the mid-nineties and had an APC (kind of like a room leader) who displayed a Confederate flag in the window. My other two roommates and I (Northerners all of us) found great use for the flag as a means to remove sweat from unseemly places when the APC wasn’t around. But I distinctly remember a rule being issued that year that the flag could not be displayed in the windows. My redneck roommate was quite upset about it. If BJU is being consistent about their rules, then I’m sure this particular student was forced to take the flag down.

  28. My husband and I left ministry four years ago last month and we’ve been leaving the church altogether on day at a time ever since. This thread brings all of that stuff back up again…I’m guessing some things…like leaving the church should be done all at once instead of a little at a time. I’m sad I stopped by today.

    1. This makes mescal, too. I am so sorry! I left abruptly, upon the death of my husband seventeen years ago, knowing it was now or never. I agree that all at once is better. Perhaps not feasible, in every situation. I am so sorry! 🙁

    2. I left completely 25 years ago. The process started about 4 years prior to that. It was stops and starts, and resolves to leave and resolves to give it another try.

  30. I’m very southern but my ancestors were Union sympathizers who suffered much at the hands of the Confederacy. Not a fan of the flag.

    1. I’m also very southern (although born in Yankee-land). My ancestors on both sides fought under that flag. At one point it actually did represent honor and courage. That time ended when the last Confederate veteran died almost 60 years ago. It’s been perverted to a racist symbol just as the Nazis perverted the swastika (once an honorable symbol dating almost to prehistory in multiple cultures, including the early church) into just about the purest symbol of evil imaginable. Neither has a place in the modern world.

  31. I’m very southern but my ancestors were southern Union sympathizers who suffered much at the hands of the Confederacy. Not a fan of the flag.

  32. All I can say after reading all the comments is Wow…
    When I took the pics I just laughed at the irony. Never occurred to me that the pics would spark comments like those above, and I grew up (and still live) in the south! LOL
    As to BJU promoting free speech–ha!! Right… Oh well… I still find the whole thing ironic and funny.
    Oh–as to pic quality, they were taken on my phone, and it has a max of 2 or 3 pixels.

    1. Free speech doesn’t exist at BJU. My partner got kicked out for exercising free speech there, even after the Dean of Men admitted there wasn’t anything illegal, immoral, or anti-biblical in what he had been saying. It was enough that he had deigned to write without the school’s permission and censuring. But he “signed away his rights” when he signed the handbook that year, or at least, that’s the way they view the handbook.

  34. History should be studied and this is a legitimate issue to debate. But I must say, let’s at least put some of the obsession we have with 150 years ago into something more productive topic that we all deal with: American Imperialism I am sad that we call any redneck who joins the military a “hero.” I dare say that it’s a much worse crime to go and kill thousands of innocent Iraqi citizens than to put up some stupid flag in a window. I appreciate the sentiment, but the disproportionate anger and concern needs to be righted.

    2. @stella
      Yeah, I’m sure our troops in Iraq spend their free time shooting Iraqis for entertainment. /sarcasm

      If you want to argue about the validity of the war, that’s one thing. Painting the troops as mass-murderers is just dumb. War isn’t neat, it is extremely messy and a lot of people die. Sometimes that includes civilians even though we’re trying not to do so. Don’t know who said it but ‘war is hell’.

      1. CFresh, I am with Stella on this, although, admittedly, this is a very touchy subject. The government tries their best to decondition the troops to humane behaviour and to turn them into professional killers. This is not a just war. And why are we in Afghanistan? Many of the US military is doing nothing more than protecting the poppy crops from destruction. Is that really a good reason to go to war? It’s hard to blame individuals for doing as their told, and for that I’ll give the individual soldiers credit. But as a nation, these wars in that part of the world are evil and senseless. I don’t stand up for “patriotism” when we are doing nothing but invading nations to plunder and regard human lives as chattle.

        1. Please reread my comment…I’m not disputing her questioning the validity of wars. I am disputing her claim that we are “[killing] thousands of innocent Iraqi citizens…” which I take as an implication that the troops are just walking around shooting people willy-nilly.

        2. Most honest reports will claim that thousands of innocent Iraqis have been killed in the war since 2003. Sure, I agree that I don’t think most American soldiers are going around on a caprice and killing citizens on a whim. But does that really matter? Innocent citizens are still being killed. Why? Because Sadam Hussein attacked us on 9/11 because he dislikes our freedoms and doesn’t like the fact that we serve alcohol at football games and that women can vote?

        3. CFresh, I’m new here at don’t know too much about the place. It would appear as if in the rush to run away from hyper fundamentalism, many or most of the people here have turned against conservative politics as well. If fundamentalists are politically conservative and Republican, then it must be bad, right?

          I find it sad, ironic, and a sign of gullibility that many of the readers here can’t see that Obama is just as much of a war president as Bush ever was. Obama is absolutely no different than Bush in that regard, and if anythimg, is even MORE of a war president.

        4. Welcome to the blog and I hope you stick around 🙂 Check out the forum as well. Lots of discussions going on and some of them are pretty entertaining.

          You may be right about the political leanings here. The cause/effect is debatable and we aren’t all like that. Personally, I’m something of a libertarian and a conservative.

          I don’t dispute that Iraqi civilians have died since we invaded. My question is who is killing them? As far as I know, most of this is coming from radicals who are still happily blowing people up in the name of their religion. Would this have happened if we had not invaded? Well, I agree that our presence is one of the causes of these attacks so, yes, one could argue that we are accessories to these deaths. However, I would argue that terrorists are going to terrorize and we are a convenient excuse/scapegoat for their actions. If we were to pull out tomorrow they would still being doing this stuff until they controlled the country. At which point the tactic would probably shift to repressing the citizens by force (so really just a methods change).

          If we had not invaded Iraq at all then Saddam would still be in power with his whole bloody history still continuing. Really, I think its a damned if you do; damned if you don’t situation. Innocent citizens are still dying either way. The only things that change are how many and why. Geez, I’m starting to sound as cynical as my dad…

        5. MarkS: Why? Because Sadam Hussein attacked us on 9/11 because he dislikes our freedoms and doesn’t like the fact that we serve alcohol at football games and that women can vote?

          It’s a testament to the sad state of our news media that I can’t tell if that was a joke or not.

          (Note to confused readers: Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with Al-Qaeda and the 9/11 plot.)

        6. Al Qaeda actually opposed Saddam Hussein (who for all his faults was probably one of the more progressive leaders in the region, which is akin to being the warmest spot in Antarctica). The ‘insurgents’ we fought in Iraq for so long were for the most part people Saddam’s secret police had locked up and out of circulation until we set them free. We would have done more good for everyone if we’d stayed out of Iraq and focused on destroying al Qaeda’s main base of operations in Afghanistan.

  35. My hubby had this same argument not too long ago with current students at his alma mater. They, of course, defended their right to have it hanging too.

    1. I don’t even know if I’m replying to the right post because I didn’t see a “reply” button where I thought it would be.

      But to answer your question, yes, I was being sarcastic. Of course Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11 and we weren’t attacked “because they hate our freedom.” I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. It’s so preposterous that it’s almost funny, but it’s also sad that the media are still touting this line because people will actually believe it.

  36. Just FYI,

    Bibb Graves was more than just a BJU Board Member back in the day. He was listed as a member of the Executive Board for years (think Bob Wood or Marshall Franklin), and, as Governor of Alabama, he strongly persuaded Alabamians to lend financial support to the new Bob Jones College. When the Governor/Grand Cyclops calls you up for money, you listen.

    His wife, too, was a BJC/U Board member after her husband’s death. Ironside’s wife was not. Ironside has no where near the skeletons in his closet that Graves has, and, imo, this is an attempt to win the Sword crowd. The Sword crowd from 1954. . . .

    Now, in Graves’ defense — and yes, after you’ve spent an inordinate amount of time in the guy’s archives, you get attached to him — he was pretty progressive about a few things. Gay rights historians credit him for the first being an early gay rights advocate. No kidding! Contrary to what the Klan and most protestants were pushing back in the 30s, Graves vetoed eugenics legislation — TWICE. The historians claim that he was listening to the working class whites who had a hunch that the mandatory sterilization bill would hurt them the most. Graves listened and he went against the Klan’s usual position.

    So there is that.

    The U of Alabama still has a hall named after him. I think it was kind of dumb to take his name down from BJU. The guy was a big part of the past. A huge part! Talk about it. Don’t expunge it!

    1. Fundies don’t do discussion & nuance. They do do purges & denials. I think all of the things your rightfully list as positives BJU would consider to be negatives, and I’m not convinced BJU thinks the Klan involvement is a negative.

  37. I think we’re all missing the point here… Since when did BJU decide to allow minority students to attend???

    Wouldn’t being a minority and attending BJU kind of be like being a minority and having the confederate flag draped over the rear window of your 4×4 ’85 pickup? Six one/ half dozen the other really…

    1. They can attend, they just can’t date the white people. Should be thankful they can eat lunch at the same commons/tables.

  38. Wow! A few things. 1-If a symbol of your heritage is someone else’s hate, you should have enough sensitivity not to use it.

    2-Bibb Graves actually became a progressive Democrat later in life. I don’t know what was worse for BJU – having a dorm named for a KKK bigwig or progressive Democrat?

    3-No amount of “whitewashing” will erase BJU’s racist past.

    1. “1-If a symbol of your heritage is someone else’s hate, you should have enough sensitivity not to use it.”

      EXACTLY.

      1. Then if I decide that your American flag, rainbow flag, Christian flag, or your personal flag of choice is offensive to me, then I expect you to take it down immediately.

  39. What about. Swastika? Did someone already post that? (who has time to read everything these days). Oops, did mentioning a Swastika invoke Godwin’s Law?

    1. The swastika was perfectly acceptable until the Nazis converted it to their cause. I don’t see why I should be forced to accept everyone else’s view at the expense of my own.

  40. The confederate flag is the only flag that represented the hatred, abuse, and oppression of another group of people that is still “honored” by people who don’t belong to the “hating group.” Imagine someone flying a Nazi flag in their window and trying to justify that it was just culture or history. What makes us think that it’s ok to fly something that for thousands of people represents racism, hatred, bigotry, and slavery? I come from the south where the confederate flag is revered and defended, but even as a child, I could never understand how someone could justify taking pride and identity in it. Heritage in the Holocaust isn’t something Germany takes pride in. Heritage in racism and slavery isn’t something American should take pride in either. How about taking pride in the freedom movements of the U.S. (the revolution, civil rights, women’s lib, etc.) instead of making our weak moments the things we broadcast to the world as being important to us?

    1. The American flag was used by the KKK, but I don’t see people clamoring to take it down…be fair people!

      1. There’s been wrongs done under every flag, the American flag was born in anti-colonial rebellion, not as a way of defending the institution of slavery. Rebel flag was, regardless of your “4 or 5 greater reasons”. No slavery = no Civil War. You can’t divorce the true cause of conflict between the states.

  41. I don’t want to sound harsh, but those of you that believe that the war between the states had to do with states rights, and economics should pull your head out of your @$$. Yes it was states rights: the confederacy wanted the right of each state to have slaves. Yes it was economics: the slave holders did not want to lose their investment or workforce. I am from the south. We have family land outside of Birmingham where the ruins of the plantation was left up into the 1960’s. My family lived resided in the only structures left on the property. The former slave cabins. Talk about irony and justice in a sunday with a cherry on top. My point is the context and era of the Confederate flag. In a civil war museum? yes. In a persons dorm, on their lawn, on their trailer house, used as a dew rag in walmart its wrong. Just as the swastika is synonamous with nazi Germany; now the stars and bars is synonymous with racist organizations. should be out of place at Blow Job U or any other place. 👿

    1. Exactly! Which is why the 14th amendment was passed, to make it official that states and businesses do not have the right to discriminate against someone’s rights as an individual based on things such as race. It may have seemed like a states’ rights issue, but it was more about whether the states had the right to withhold federal rights from others. What’s the point of having the bill of rights if the states can just nullify them and pretend they don’t exist? The states retain the power to run their state as they see fit AS LONG AS it doesn’t interfere with people’s national rights. Make someone out to be sub-human and label them as property, and of course it’s going to seem like a rights issue when property is being taken away. But if you look at it from a humanity point of view, they really tried to secede over being forced to grant other human beings whom they didn’t find “worthy” the same rights granted the general white male. Owning a human being–their life, in essence– should never have been a right of anyone in the first place.

    2. It’s not hard to understand. Lots of people on here love to live in denial and are incredibly emotional about defending the indefensible.

  42. It saddens me that everyone is quick to condemn the South morally while forgetting that the North ignored the legal rights of Southerners, which was the cause of the WBTS. Yes, slavery was a moral wrong, but the North was legally wrong. For those that say it’s fine to ignore someone’s legal rights because they’re morally wrong, you’re no better than the slave-owners who forced their view of the world on their legal property.

    1. Moral equivalency fail + no one (except apparently confederate defenders) says the North was blameless, including Abraham Lincoln.

    2. What? No, that’s stupid. By that logic all of those people in the civil rights movement were wrong to stage sit-ins at segregated businesses, because they had the legal right to prohibit black people from shopping there. The point is that the law was horribly immoral, and it would have been immoral to follow it.

      If you’re seriously claiming that it was wrong for Northerners to refuse to return escaped slaves to a life of bondage I’m going to have to seriously question your understanding of right and wrong.

      1. Abolitionists were honoring God rather than men. Stealing people to make them slaves is against God’s law: “He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death.” (Exodus 21:16) And as for escaped slaves: “You shall not hand over to his master a slave who has escaped from his master to you.” (Deuteronomy 23:15) I know we’re no longer under the law, but under Christ’s law, there actually is neither slave or free: we are all one and are to treat each other as we would wish to be treated.

  44. I definitely understand where some people interpret the Confederate battle flag as instantly anti-black (or something)…but that isn’t what it is about to most Southerners.

    My husband’s high school class ring has the Battle Flag crossed on the side of it. To him it isn’t about “oppressing the black man”…but to him it symbolizes the free, fun loving “rebel” spirit he holds dear. It’s about being a part of the South to him, not anything else.

    I’m pretty sure that is what it is about to a lot of people…

  45. We shouldn’t forget that Native Americans could object to the American flag with at least as much legitimacy (if not more, depending upon whether having your home taken away from you is worse than being taken away from your home–as with all things YMMV). Ban the Confederate flag and the racists will find another symbol. They could use the Stars and Bars flag–the actual flag of the political apparatus that protected slavery, as opposed to the battle flag of an army that for the most part was made up of ordinary guys who just wanted to protect their homes from (as they saw it) the damnyankees who were invading. There’s a reason the Civil War was/is referred to as ‘a rich man’s war and a poor man’s fight’. 😉 Or, with as much justification, they could use Old Glory herself (the KKK and other groups *do* use the US flag routinely). And of course there’s the old rugged burning cross…but nobody proposes to ban crosses.

    The problem is not in the symbols but in the root cause–the sins of pride and divisiveness–that an authentic understanding of Christ should do away with. Galatians 3:28 seems to be another one fundamentalists have trouble with. The fact that racist behavior is condoned *at all* regardless of what symbols are used to represent it is symptomatic of a much larger issue that the school’s administration fails to address. ‘If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out’. If honoring the school’s ‘heritage’ is hurting the testimony of Christ, then to a real Christian the choice is obvious. This picture tells us more about who these fundamentalists *really* serve this day.

  46. There are probably no minorities living in that room and the very few minorities (black and hispanic) tend to be passive towards racial issues, i was told by a black student there that “there was no more racism in the united states”. . . i really would like to see this guy put his flag up at a school like furman or even the dorms of greenville tech, they wouldnt beat him up but they would make him feel like total social outcast and a backwards ignorant redneck. 👿 👿 👿 👿 👿 👿

  47. Likely that flag was nit up for long after the pic was taken. When I attended (off and on from 2003-08) flying it wasn’t allowed and anyone hanging the Rebel flag in a window was ordered to remove it.

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