108 thoughts on “Sword of the Lord 2011 Conference: Final Installment”

1. First?

   1. Good game. I made the mistake of reading the entire thing before checking to see if there were comments. 🙁

      1. It must be a slow day today… I just finished reading the whole thing now.

         Anyway, thanks Don for your hard work and dedication. You went so we didn’t have to (kind of like missionaries, amen?). 😉

2. “… They gave him a copy of one of those framed 1620 KJV Bible leafs.”

   Somebody said this the other day, but you do have to wonder why these people who so emphatically idolize (literally) the King James Version are busy cutting up old KJV Bibles.

   1. it is a 1620 copy and not the original 1611.

      1. And they talk about Catholics and their cross wood chips and saint body remains. These IFBs do relic-worship with the pages of an old book.

3. Honestly, it’s kind of sad to read this stuff, and think of all the people being misled. That’s how I feel.

   1. I used to feel sorry for them RJW but they don’t have to check their minds and hearts at the door. They could think for themselves and stand up for Truth. But, the sheeple are happy being sheeple and they feel very self-righteous and justified in their comfy pews.

      We can pray they wake up.

      1. I know what you mean, Presbygirl. There is a lot of pride, arrogance, and self-righteousness like the Pharisee praying in the temple saying, “I’m glad I’m not like other men.” Humility and brokenness are needed, hearts of stone turned to hearts of flesh, and God’s Spirit breaking up the heard soil.

         1. “heard soil” should be “hard soil”

4. Red flags should go up whenever we hear preachers assert that Christianity or being “right with God” consists of Jesus plus anything (e.g., Jesus plus skirts on girls, Jesus plus short hair on guys, Jesus plus our preferred Bible translation, Jesus plus attending my church 3 times a week).

   Paul addressed the same issue in the Epistle to the Galatians because the teachers there were promoting the idea that true Christianity equals Jesus plus circumcision…and Paul was mad as Hell because those teachers were corrupting the message of the gospel.

   It was heresy 2000 years ago…and it is heresy today as well. Our “rightness” with God does not depend on what we do, rather it rests upon what He has done.

   1. Succinct and well said. I couldn’t agree more.

5. I must admit I initially read “knocking doors, running busses” as “knocking down doors, running down busses”, which puts a slightly different spin on it!

6. Thank you Don for putting yourself through this. It shows how fundies are NOT God centered. Even my “good” fundie church lent itself to abuse. What you had here was sickening, but happening.

   Now I need to find some posts for the humor. It is therapy you know. 🙂

7. I have a goatee.

   1. Me too! They are awesomeness manifested. 😀 And mine helps me look like I’m not still in high school.

8. This was so grieving just to read; I can’t imagine having to sit through it.

   And of course one preacher gave the typical arrogant response to anyone who disagrees with them: “Just shut up.” “Don’t criticize me. Don’t dare use your God-given reasoning abilities to quesiton anything I do.”

   1. It was grieving to read, PW! This last post brought tears to my eyes. I have family so caught up in all of this & it breaks my heart. I am so grateful to be free from all the bondage. I don’t know you except through SFL but I agree with your posts all the time. If I knew where you lived, I would visit your church. God bless you & your husband for your service to Him.

9. “The more a church grows the less it seems the pastor goes soul winning.”

   Interesting. I heard a sermon on exactly that this past Sunday at a Pastor’s Refresher Conference. It sorta came across as a way to encourage the pastors who have only tiny churches of three people (excluding the eleven pastor’s kids) that somehow it’s a good thing if their church is still small… 😯 Cause if their church is not big, then obviously the pastor is still out there soul winning. (Of course, if the pastor was still out there soul winning, shouldn’t the church be getting bigger as people get saved? But then we all know, people are getting harder to save now days and then there’s the follow up and everything… Or maybe it’s just something pastors with small, dying churches tell other pastors with small, dying churches so they don’t actually have to face *why* their church is *really* small and dying… lol, my PK mind can play with this one for hours! 🙄 )

10. I see fat old white people.

    1. Yes, I noticed that too, Mark. That’s a good sign I should think. Maybe the whole thing is just outliving its usefulness and will just finally die off. (But I wonder how old Rebekah is who comments on here some and is pretty defensive about it all).

       1. My mother has lamented that her fundie church is having a hard time attaching young (white) families. One problem is the demographics of area are changing; it was once working class whites, now it’s becoming more black and Hispanic. These groups have their own ways of worshiping that are not as uptight as white fundies.
          One sister fundie church which was once hard core Bob Jones, closed down a few years ago and was sold to a Hispanic Pentecostal congregation.
          There are still five white fundie churches in that area, I believe two of them won’t be around in five years. My mother’s church is looking for a new pastor; she believes if they get a young pastor it will attach more young (white) families. The real program is IFB does not appeal to many young white Christians.
          Many younger whites prefer churches that have contemporary music, with guitars, drums and a beat. Also as the children of working class whites become more educated, they accept evolution and are tolerate of gay people, so the bible literalism of fundamentalism does not appeal to them.

       2. I am in my early 20s 🙂

          1. Thought so. Thanks for stopping by and letting us know.

       3. You’re welcome…but would it really matter what age group I am a part of? I thought you guys were saying it’s all older people and that this is dying off…how do I fit into that category?

    2. Sooo true! Much of fundamentalism is simply cultural.

11. From the post – “So what happens when the conversation is only one sided? What happens when the conversation prohibits anything other than positive feedback? That is what passes for preaching in America these days.”

    My husband realized that church members were being lectured for at LEAST four hours a week – Sunday School, Sunday AM, Sunday PM, and Wednesday night – plus an optional Bible study. He wanted people to not just listen but to learn and apply. The evening services were canceled and replaced with small groups that usually look at the AM sermon in depth, discussing its implications and applications for our lives.

    This calls for people to listen MORE intently and certainly by discussing the sermon later with others, they are able to see if they agree with it and if it matches with Scripture.

    Yet my husband was accused of being against Bible study and only wanting people to study his sermons instead of God’s Word. 😕

    1. My pastor taught a series in Romans. Then for two weeks he had an “open mike” question and answer session about it. The questions were not pre-screened, and I even challenged a point that was made. He patiently addressed all questions.

       That is something you would not find in a fundy church.

       1. Love the idea of an open mike! I will pass that on to my husband. He is always looking for ideas to get people talking about what he is teaching about. Sunday School is a good discussion and he wants to extend that in a Sunday evening service, but Sunday morning is your typical preaching time and people don’t participate. That might ‘loosen’ them up a little.

    2. There were a multitude of snide remarks and anti “discussion” remarks from the pulpit that week. The IFB doesn’t want people to actually examine what the preacher said and openly discuss it. It would reveal the emperor has no clothes. To the IFB any discussion that was not positive reinforcement for the pastor is divisive and is looked on as gossip. The hardcore IFB’s around here are extremely jealous of their positions and most of them require that they be in on any discussion regarding their preaching so that can “head off” any negative comments. Control is key in keeping people in line. Remember sheeple cannot think for themselves and according to the template around here they should not have to or be encouraged to. 😯
       I hope that someday I can come and visit your church PW. I am really encouraged by what I see and hear from there.

       1. My former fundy pastor gave the video greeting early in the SOTL conference. Years ago, I recall him deriding the concept of small house groups meeting on Wednesday nights “gossiping”, (paraphrased)”When they should be in church listening to the preaching of the Word of God”.

          Can’t let ’em pose a threat to the mannogid, doncha know!

    3. @PW. We have hosted a small group in our home on Sunday nights for the past two years. It has been wonderful. Knowing that we will be eating together and discussing the sermon makes you have “ears to hear” and hearts that love others more deeply be cause of the relationships that are formed.

       I am sure your husband is promoting himself and not Bible study by having small groups. 🙄 It takes way more courage for a Pastor to preach every week KNOWING that his congregation is going to be discussing what he said!!! Carry on you rebels!! 🙂

12. “He tries not to be overly critical so long as they use the King James Bible, Preach and go soul winning”

    One could practically get away with murder in a fundy church if they do the above mentioned items.

    How many times do men accused (or even convicted!) of sexual abuse return to the pulpit? 👿

    1. Well, at the school Ouelette’s church has, a known sexual predator was a Bible teacher. And then there was the assistant pastor who had a criminal record for threatening a man with a gun.

       1. Perhaps that explains why he found nothing of value in the ABC 20/20 show. 😯

          1. Was this the 20/20 ep where they talked about Tina Anderson?

          2. Darn it, George! You only had to look one post below for the answer

13. He says pastors are coming up to him wondering what to do now the IFB has been outed on 20/20. He sad he wouldn’t even know what channel it was on (yeah, right! But he has the statistics on how many watched it)
    when asked “What do you think we ought to do!??” He says, “Oh, probably just have church tomorrow.”
    QQ “Idiots out there are changing their names from Independent to Autonomous.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    So this is the only thing Oulette got out of the ABC 20/20 show about Tina Anderson and Chuck Phelps – Just the need to berate those who are finally fed up with being IFB?

    No cause for introspection?

    No wondering if procedures need to be changed?

    No compassion for the victim of, what David Gibbs called, “Pastoral Privilege”? (His desire not to disclose the truth of what was said in counseling with the perp)

    Does the man have no conscience? 👿

    1. Oddly enough, RB would never associate with Phelps or that camp because they’re from BJU, and he hates BJU. He’s just getting defensive because the sect of Christianity was being attacked, not the people.

14. You have more endurance than I to do this… I thought your final words expressing both pity and fear for those in this movement were just about perfect. Fear for those who are manipulating, pity for those being manipulated.

15. Powerful closing words, my friend.

    Thank you for the reports. They were certainly insightful.

    1. I agree with Josh, in fact I found your closing paragraph to be exactly what I needed after reading your report. 🙂

16. Thank you for doing this, Don. It was very insightful & very well done! God bless you for going through all that, though. I wouldn’t want to go through it again. You did that for all of us & for that you are to be commended. Your closing words were powerful. May our Lord bless you.

    1. 😀

17. I’ve been out of IFB for over 13 years, and that 20/20 episode still got to me. Ever since then, I’ve been trying to purge my brain of any leftover Fundy-think that remained. It’s amazing what you can learn from the Bible when you finally start looking at it without the lenses of what you’ve heard your whole life. Even the definitions of “church” and “tithe” take on new meanings. It’s been so freeing!

    That being said, I can’t imagine an IFB’er NOT taking notice and re-evaluating how they do things in the light of that episode. You’d think they’d want to be “above reproach”! But then, to do that I guess they’d have to admit that their MOg’s might have been wrong…

    1. Exactly.

       IMHO Oulette has to have a pretty seared conscience to have gotten nothing of importance out of that ABC 20/20 episode.

18. While a teenager in the IFB, my father and I attended a “Friends of Israel” Conference in Rome, GA and Joe Aurthur was the last speaker as well.

    We walked up to me while preaching and told me to “stand up son!”. I did as told and he then stated that “God just told you to give $100 in the plate tonight”. I was thinking where the heck am I supposed to get that kind of money?!

    I was sitting next to my father and the whole auditorium was now watching and expecting me to do it (the amens)so my dad stepped up and gave the rest of our travel money in the plate.

    That was the first time I learned what extortion really was about. 👿

    Thanks Joe for taking our food and gas money for the rest of the week!

    1. *He walked up to me…(correction)

    2. Holy crap–that’s awful.

    3. I can think of a few sample responses:

       “Really? I must have missed it. Maybe you could tell Him to tell me again.”

       “That was God? I only heard you say it.”

       “I don’t have $100 on me, but God just told me I could borrow it from you.”

       There are other possibilities, most of them NSFW… 😈

       1. I would have to stop. Hold up my hand to silence him. Look up, cock my ear to heaven and say, “ummm-hummmm, yes, OK Lord.”
          “Joe, the Lord God Almighty just told me to tell you he never said such a thing and that you had better stop trying to include him in your lies and extortions if you know what’s good for you!”

    4. I am sad that your Dad was actually willing to give him the money. 🙁 Not surprised though…because the mannogid’s often train men to sacrifice their family’s financial security at their request. 😥

    5. I can’t even IMAGINE what it would be like to be willing to just follow orders and give away your gas & food money! Everyone would’ve been better if you’d sucker punched him instead of obeying him.

19. Great closing paragraph, Don, and thanks again for doing this.

    At no time have you seen me question any of their sincerity or their salvation. That is not for me to judge. . . . I have come away with a renewed sense of thankfulness to no longer be a part of what I believe to nearly be a cult. I also have a sense of pity for those who are so caught up in this man-centered religion.

    This part especially reminded me of something I recently read from St. Thomas Aquinas, a principle I’m renewing my effort to live by: “We must love them both, those whose opinions we share and those whose opinions we reject. For both have labored in the search for truth and both have helped us in the finding of it.”

    1. Sometimes I wonder how much they actually “labor” to find real truth vs IFB “truths”.

20. I just have to say this about RB, because it ticked me off. He rants and raves about baptism numbers, when the people being baptized in his church are 70% of the time repeats, and 20% are coming from the “Shepherd’s Class” ministry (for the mentally challenged) and those people are being told “you should get baptized – it’s fun!”

    I know this, because I was there. In the “baptistery” where these people were coming. My mom and I worked in there. One point, my mom tried to send one lady away (who had already been baptized 5 times) and she got in trouble for it.

    This is one of the things that ticked me off the most about that church. They don’t care about souls. They care about NUMBERS. I have story after story I could tell you, but I won’t. There is nothing scriptural about the way they send teenage girls into inner-city Saginaw by themselves to do “soulwinning” or “bus calling.”

    1. “There is not a cause, when God’s people are more concerned with their safety then they are god’s testimony.”

       My former church is in a high crime area and they require women and teens to go “soul-winning” too.

       It is simply not safe.

       1. and the mannogid does not seem to care.

          1. Not only does he not care, if you wanted to play sports at the school, you were *required* to go out soulwinning at least once a week.

          2. At my former fundy church the same requirement exists for anyone who wants to participate in any volunteer church ministry and for the Bible college students.

             Quite literally hundreds of people are made to knock on doors in a high crime area each week.

21. I have a goatee, (full beard in winter) and am a preacher. I also go to an Independent Baptist Church. I’m also a reformed legalist (our local Awana missionary gave me the label and I think it fits)and very happy to be reformed.

    I wish ‘ol R. B. would have used my favorite quote I ever heard him say. (Not in my church-I was a visitor). Don would have choked on his gum if he had. While expounding on all things evil, he threw in a plug against those people who work 10 hour days and only go to work 4 days a week. At the time, I worked 12 hour days and only showed up 3 days most weeks.
    When he said that, I closed my Bible and looked at the rest of the sermon as entertainment. I would not have embarrassed my Dad by just walking out, but I did say not to invite me back. I prefer Biblical preaching. Pick your preferred translation, but keep to real Bible.

    1. “Don would have choked on his gum if he had. While expounding on all things evil, he threw in a plug against those people who work 10 hour days and only go to work 4 days a week. At the time, I worked 12 hour days and only showed up 3 days most weeks.”

       Yeah, but he is happy to take their tithes!

       I have often heard fundies say no one should take a job that could cause them to have to miss one of the “Three to Thrive” services each week. Yet they still make it a habit of going out to lunch and/or dinner on Sundays and Wednesdays, and sometimes appreciate the fact the emergency room is open on Sundays.

    2. I don’t understand that – why did he care how many days you worked? If the boss didn’t care – what business was it of his?

       1. Probably because it could cause someone to miss the midweek church service, which would certainly result in them missing out on God’s perfect will, cause them to fall into great sin, or other such nonsense. 🙄

    3. I think it had something to do with laziness and not wanting to work the other days. He wasn’t smart enough to think we might do something besides sleep in and eat bon-bons on our off days. I doubt he could actually labor a 10 or 12 hour day.

       If he was going to try to be Biblical, he would have told us to work 6 days.

       Oh, Used-to-be-Fundy–He actually bragged about checking the giving records, so he could “encourage” those who weren’t giving properly.

       He ranted on so many things that night I couldn’t even try to remember them all.

22. Incredible! The things they preach that are not in the word of God but you’re supposed to accept it because they said so! There is nowhere it says what hours one ought to work, how many hours and days! In those days most people worked 6 days a week and only had the Sabbath off. And there is nowhere in the Bible it says you have to go to church Sunday morning, Sunday evening and Wednesday evening. But to the IFB those three services are sancrosanct. Then they harp on the Catholics for adhering to tradition rather than the word of God.

    At one of the ladies spectaculars one of them stood up there and said it was a sin to wear denim. I was floored when I heard this because 90% of my wardrobe is denim. What’s wrong with denim skirts, jumpers and vests? This was one of the things that started me on the road to rejecting the IFB. 👿

23. My son worked a couple of half-summers at a Fundy camp. One of the churches they visited had a visiting pastor. Before he quit ranting, he had even hit on those liberal churches that replaced pews with chairs. (Like ours) I wish I could have gotten the tape, as a CD would be too modern. Pure entertainment.

    He wasn’t asked back to camp this summer because his sisters go to a Christian College on the black-list. (They aren’t KJV only, and even let the girls wear PANTS!!)

    1. Pants?!

       Did they think his sisters’ “libruhism” was contagious?

       😉

    2. @Uncle Wilver. Amen.. Guilty by Association. He’s a heathern(southern for heathen). 😆

       1. Yes ma’am, I knew the word. Being from the deep South, I’ve heard “heatheren, heathern, ‘Merican (American), derbish (debris), pershed (perished), southeren, northeren, and many others. All in sermons from supposedly educated men.

24. re: the picture.
    I see a lot of people, waiting to die. Old, defeated, miserable. Its a sad life to live.

25. Oh my gosh the whole website turned into Bold/Italics!

    1. I used to go to this church….brought back painful mamories….

       1. mammories, or memories? I’m so confused

    2. whoops. fixed it.

       1. Ahhhhh. That was getting annoying on the eyes! Nice that it’s back to normal!

       2. I’m with PW, was hoping that was not a permanent font change. Much better now!

26. My husband and I were at the S.C. in 2001 when one of the ‘preechers’ (I think it was Larry Brown) got up on the pews and walked around, screamed incessantly and smashed a tv w/ a hatchet, I believe. Yeah, we knew at this point that we really weren’t ifb though we both grew up that way. It was actually a positive time because this is when we started our journey away from it all. Like some of you have mentioned, we also looked around and realized the high majority of the attendees were over 60. I remember us saying, ‘where is everyone our age?’ Hopefully far, far away. (No offense to those over 60. We were pretty young at the time.)

    1. One of the last times I went the FBC Youth Conference (late 90s) one of the speakers smashed a TV as well. He got the crown all worked up by railing against the evils of television before bringing it out to smash. I was all caught up in the frenzy with everyone else but before he was done I started to realize how foolish it was. It was just a mob reaction. shameful behavior on all our parts. 🙁

       1. I was there too! Wasn’t that ’97 or ’99? They also had those huge posters of Lester Roloff, O.B. Greene, and many others for us to “worship” as our heros. 🙄

       2. I was there too! Wasn’t that ’97 or ’99? They also had those huge posters of Lester Roloff, O.B. Greene, and many others for us to “worship” as our heros. 🙄

          I also remember they played about 5 seconds of one of Manson’s CDs.

          1. I went 3 times, I think and 97-99 fits the range about right. I went to college in 2000 and I think it was right before that. Don’t remember the posters.

             I remember one finale thing they did where a guy rappeled out of the ceiling. And I think thats the same one where Hyles was praying for 10 more years so he could train everyone at the conference. I think that was the first time I went.

27. Don,
    That was good stuff. I hope, as the pic would seem to show, that this type of IFB is becoming old and obsolete. Hopefully the internet and the information age relegate these people to history. I still feel the fool for ever taking part in such nonsense.

28. @ Don and Darrell.
    Perhaps next year you guys can be like some of the very “godly” attendees at the conference and use your vacation time to allow you to be at EVERY preaching session instead of slacking and only reporting on the ones in the evening. Just a frienldly suggestion.

29. “Let him know that he which converteth a sinner from the error of his way, will save a soul from death, and hide a multitude of sins.” James 5:20

    1. The only thing is James 5:20 is in the context of fellow believers who have wandered and are following error. So, if that is “Soul Winning,” then the IFB movement is a field white unto harvest.

       We are to be witnesses, and we are to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ. Some sow, some water but it is God who gives the increase… not someone’s ability to get people to agree to accept Christ or some slick scripted sales presentation pressuring them to make some sort of mental assent that produces decisional regeneration. (And we wonder why there are untold numbers in our churches who agonize over whether they got it right, whether they had enough faith, whether they are truly saved or not… because all they have is a decisional experience brought on by mental assent to the Soul Winner’s presentation.)

       1. I’m a person who has had many of those doubts about my salvation for many years – scary!

          My question is, what’s the other option? I’m not a person very in touch with my emotions, and I know of no other way than a mental commitment. Is that a decisional experience? Can’t a decisional experience be genuine salvation? How else can you experience salvation?

          Thanks in advance for helping me sort this out 🙂

          1. Sadly there are a multitude who have these doubts and even more sadly there are those who capitalize on those doubts from a position of authority (co called).
             Yes, there is a volitional element in salvation as we repent and turn from sin and turn to Christ. But that is the out working of an inward reality. For by “Grace” (the gift of God) we are saved through “faith” (another gift from God). While we are emotional creatures and we are experiential beings, Salvation is neither. Salvation is the finished work of Christ on our behalf and it is a work of Grace God does in our hearts.
             For some this truth is solid and they anchor to it and become unshakable. Yet there are those that will struggle their whole lives with doubt and wondering. I think of William Cowper, (he even was so depressed that he tried to commit suicide three times) he struggled with his “salvation” all his life yet look how God used him. I believe that God is just as glorified in the one who anchors his pike and says “With Gods help here I stand!” and I believe God is also glorified by the one who stands trembling and says,”O Lord, I believe… help thou my unbelief!”

             I refuse to make judgment on either of these because I do not know what Christ is doing in anyone’s life. Where they are spiritually or what the Lord is using to draw someong closer to himself with. All I can tell you is God is true, Jesus Christ is Truth and you can believe him to be who he claims to be. Like Thomas let us declare, “My Lord and My God!”

             Light Shining out of Darkness

             God moves in a mysterious way,
             His wonders to perform;
             He plants his footsteps in the sea,
             And rides upon the storm.

             Deep in unfathomable mines
             Of never failing skill,
             He treasures up his bright designs,
             And works his sovereign will.

             Ye fearful saints, fresh courage take,
             The clouds ye so much dread
             Are big with mercy, and shall break
             In blessings on your head.

             Judge not the LORD by feeble sense,
             But trust him for his grace;
             Behind a frowning providence,
             He hides a smiling face.

             His purposes will ripen fast,
             Unfolding ev’ry hour;
             The bud may have a bitter taste,
             But sweet will be the flow’r.

             Blind unbelief is sure to err,
             And scan his work in vain;
             GOD is his own interpreter,
             And he will make it plain.

             -Wm Cowper

          2. Thank you, Don, for your well-considered and well stated response. You explained it very well, and I appreciate the care that went into your answer.

             I’ve claimed “help my unbelief” many times. It’s always helpful to be reminded that we are allowed to struggle, it is not a sin, and He can use our struggles to help others.

             I typically get hung up on actions – does my life show that I am His? But I want to act at His direction, not from legalism, fear, or trying to buy favour. He and I are working on straightening out my motives – at least doing good is always right in the meantime.

             Also, beautiful song – had never looked at the whole thing before – especially love the last 2 lines 🙂

          3. Don/Janet – Don your exegesis is correct on the passage in Hebrews, it just happened to be one of the first verses I thought of when I was reading your reporting on SOTL conference (mostly very good reporting, btw, tks)

             Janet – I think what you are going through is “working out your salvation with fear and trembling” and I and many others have travelled that same path. Phillipians 2:12

             Salvation is a gift from God, and just as a gift from a loved one can be received and enjoyed, it can also be rejected. This is not what I think, in fact it doesn’t matter what I think, this is what God’s word says. Jesus says clearly “If I be lifted up (ref to the cross) I will draw all men unto me” John 12:32 – So all of mankind is drawn, this is at least what Jesus says, again, remember it does not matter what I think or say. Hebrews 2:3 then asks “How shall we escape if neglect so great salvation? This salvation,which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.”

             I stand amazed at times at how so many folks can confuse the simple gospel message. I would suggest in times of doubt to re-read the gospel of John, over and over our Lord consistently invites all to “accept” Him. “But as many as received Him, to them gave he power to become the Sons of God, even to them that believe on His name.” John 1:12

30. I’ve been thinking about the oft-used phrase “Pray for power” — where does this come from? And is it even Scriptural??

31. Someone told me about the 20/20 programs about IFB. I hate TV of my own accord so I never watch. Watched it on the net. Came across SFL. I am ADDICTED to it!! I have only always referred to myself as a Born Again Christian no other labels yet I do worship at a local IFB church on my own terms, I wear my pants, (I am a woman) I listen to what I want to musically and I love attending a mega church on Saturday nights which is 180 different than my home church. I appreciate so many of your comments, they are right on. Some of you sound like you have given up on Jesus and God the Father altogether but I hope I am wrong on that. My church is in bad shape internally we are almost 50/50 old- guard- fundy and people wanting to drop the hypocritical facade. Hope I am welcome here, I sure am getting some encouragement reading your posts.

    1. Glad to have you on board.

32. Thanks, Don, I especially enjoy your posts! Wow, I just went back to a thread on here about long hair on women, yeeeesh! A couple of the men on staff in my church have had the boldness to start wearing facial hair, I am so proud of them! It’s just hair, people!! Wash it regularly and let’s all just get along! ;-p

33. Don, your experience at the conference really brings back a memory. The Lord was pleased to save me at a Fundy Baptist church over 30 years ago. They were showing that movie classic, “A Thief in the Night.” God used that low budget flick to bring me into His kingdom…

    Thirty plus years later, the Lord has grown me and taught me many things. What I have learned along the way, is that God can sometimes use the craziest thing to bring His people to saving faith. Though I disagree with their methods and much of their “doctrine”, I thank God for the little Fundy church proclaiming the gospel on that night so long ago. SDG!

    Grace and peace to you all…

34. Is the SOTL National Conference video or audio on the Internets anywhere?

35. At our church I ask if people have questions at the end of every sermon. And then I interact with the congregation for up to 10 min. Of course I am Presbyterian & do have a goatee…

36. It’s strange you’ve reported on this. Yesterday, in a moment of madness, I listened to a sermon from a branch of the church I would never frequent.

    It was so much like your description. 60 minutes of non-stop verbiage from a man who obviously was in love with the sound of his own voice. I didn’t really analyse what he said, as I knew I would disagree with it, but did notice he twisted the scriptures to support his position.

    The sermon was basically designed to manipulate people into accepting his position. It was a one-way download that left no room for questions or differences of opinion. Information overload, just like you said.

    I didn’t hear the voice of Jesus in that talk. It didn’t come from someone whose heart and mind have been transformed by the love of God. The fruit of the spirit were absent.

    The thing that I found profoundly disturbing was not what he said, but the way he said it. His approach was saying “I am a man who understands the Bible, and if you dare to disgree with me, you are disagreeing with God himself and are a liberal heretic who probably isn’t saved and will end up in hell”.

    It brought back painful memories from my youth. If I ever went to a church like that now, I’d get thrown out. This approach to faith scares me, it really does.

37. Don,

    If one turns away from this kind of Christianity, where does one turn?

    What church do you attend ?

    Where is your membership?

    What should one look for in a local church?

    1. Theo,
       Those are all good questions. As you see here on SFL that first question is the Key to Pandora’s box. Folks have left Fundie Bunkers and have scattered all over the Religious spectrum. Some have even rejected Religion altogether an some have even rejected God based on the Lies and hypocrisy.

       Where does one turn? Turn to Christ and focus on him exclusively. If that takes not going to a church building then so be it. Look around and find people you see are living Christ (and be purposeful to choose those who are not from the bunker system) and get to know them, talk of Christ and listen to them. My advice would be talk to any one but a Baptist at this point. Presbyterian, Lutheran, Orthodox even Catholic.

       Secondly, I would say sit aside your King James for a season. Begin to read through the Bible with another good English translation. (I prefer either the NASB or the ESV but that is my preference. I also use the NIV but generally keep to one of the first two. For me the fundie psychosis began to wear off when I tore down the KJVO temple and began to see God’s word anew and afresh in these other translations. Old dead passages that had become mere rote phrases suddenly sprang to life and it was like going from Black and White to Color.

       So, yes! turn to Christ alone, just as Paul did after his conversion. He didn’t all of a sudden run up to Jerusalem, join the Church and take their Jesus Seminar; he went to the Arabian Desert and got alone with God. It is ok to do this. (As I pointed out find some friends you can fellowship with and learn things about God you never knew before.)

       If you are convinced and convicted to attend a brick and mortar building then by all means find one, which is solidly Christ Centered.

       Church as you ask about it is the traditional view of church and that is the status quo for the Modern day Christian Religious crowd. I don’t see that is the way it was done or that there are any particularly necessary reasons that it must be done that way. (My own particular views are probably more in line with the House Church movement we see today in China. Much of theirs is due to fear of Government crackdown, but I would love to see that in American society. btw I despise denominationalism. )

       What to look for in a local church? Christ. That the worship is actually worship of the Christ revealed in Scripture and not the Christ of some man’s imagination. Look for a group that is elder led with a plurality of elders. One man should never have access to the power, which is available to the lone ranger type of pastoral template. (the idea of the “Pastor” and a board of deacons is not acceptable. That is not found in anywhere in Scripture. Plurality of elders is the template.)

       Now, as to me personally, I attend a Reformed Baptist church (which is in the process of removing the “Baptist” from their name) and I hold to the Doctrines of Grace and the five Salas of the reformation. I am not a member; I have not joined and will not for the foreseeable future. In fact, I doubt I will ever join a “church” again where it is a way to keep count of who is on the roles and who isn’t. I am still working it all out for myself so my advice is only worth something if it causes you to think for yourself and examine your Truth filters, and your World-view. Now, That is a monumental task for anyone who grew up in the Fundie Bunker system.

       *didn’t mean to go on so long. hope that answered your questions??.

       1. The five Solas, george. It’s Solas not salas. What were you thinking? The five salads of the Reformation?? george??!! 🙄

          1. Latin, Schmatin. See the type of trouble you get in when you don’t just stick with God’s language: Jacobean English?

          2. Verily! Selah… Amen?!

       2. A few points from me…

          Things to look for:

          1. A humble attitude – a church that sees Biblical orthodoxy as a big tent. Churches which say that their beliefs are the only correct ones and denigrate others should generally be avoided.

          2. Some sort of congregational government – either directly or via elected elders or similar. If elders are appointed, they are not accountable to anyone but themselves and it’s a recipe for disaster.

          3. A diverse congregation made up of different ages, races, and social backgrounds. They should also dress differently!

          4. A range of people participating in the services (not just the pastor and other staff members). If they have a range of preachers, including lay people, that’s also good.

          5. Various subjects for the preaching, including real Bible teaching.

          Things to avoid:

          1. Charismatic / pentecostal movements – although some milder forms of these may be the best option if nothing else is available

          2. Churches where the pastor’s relatives are in leadership or on staff – suggests a family business

          3. Churches that seem to idolise their pastor

          4. Churches that seem to place undue emphasis on giving (including tithing)

          5. Churches where the “worship” looks or sounds like a pop concert

          6. Churches that over-emphasise sin and seem to want their congregation to always feel guilty

          Clever ways of checking out a church

          1. Where did the pastor study?
          2. Ask the pastor what books he’s currently reading and/or could recommend
          3. Ask the pastor who his influences are
          4. See who they link to on their web site

          Also:

          I’d generally be a bit cautious about churches associated with the “9 Marks” movement as this seems to promote a fairly authoritarian approach. I also have concerns about “The Gospel Coalition” as well, although that is a broad mainstream grouping and probably not quite as bad. However, they have the longest statement of faith I’ve ever seen which suggests they have very specific beliefs and deviation isn’t tolerated.

       3. It did Don, it did.

38. Yawn

39. There are lots fundies who work on a particular compound who really get pushed toward the crappy inside….they are a special brand of hateful. Stupid too, of course.

40. Oops I meant “crappy emmaus”. The typo works though. Yeah the school takes loads of $$ in exchange for a creepy and impotent education. Sad face!

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