After a chapel message wherein Bob III addressed his stance on interracial dating/marriage, “Peter” sent a letter simply asking how BJU could take this this position since Moses had married an Ethiopian.
The response from BJII is below, exemplifying all of the grace, compassion, and wisdom that one would expect from a fundamentalist. Can you spot the bit where he goes really off track on the matter of which races are which?
To answer the question I posted above, here’s a picture of Emperor Haile Selassi I, “the famous white dude” and his wife.
One can only imagine that all through history people like the Joneses had in their possession a a sacred color wheel that they passed down through the generations to determine who is morally allowed to date whom based on shade, tint, and hue.
Sad. God forgive us for representing you so poorly.
OK, clarification on my post since I think that I was writing so fast that I wasn’t really clear: May God forgive all of us Christians for so often being such poor representatives of His love and grace.
You made your point just fine. It is sad how God and His Word get blamed for so many bad things
PWN ALL NOOBZ ON TEH INTERWEBZ!!!! I am third!!!!
Ok… Now that I got the “extremely close to first” outta my system, HOW THE *insert bad words here* is this tolerated by anyone. I mean I know they’re fundies, but for some reason at least racism should have been condemned. It’s vile and completely disgusting. I can’t even fathom how you could twist scripture that much.
The SFL shirt to the right is quite apt.
http://www.cafepress.com/fundygear.462523115
Because if you understand the roots of Christian Fundamentalism, which is uniquely American, you will learn that its very roots are in the belief of the supremacy of the white race, but more important, the inferior nature of the black race.
Any adult attracted to this cult of their own free will comes into it with very racists views in the first place. Its is the air that they breathe.
“Kind regards”…
I was hoping for a “Go to Hell, BJIII”.
That is what “kind regards ” means. Otherwise it would have closed with In Christ or something like that. 😐
I would like to reiterate that there is nothing “kind” about “Dr.” Bob’s letter; just because he signed off with the phrase “Kind regards,” does not make any of what he said less egregious and dehumanizing.
‘Bless your heart’
Don’t get me started on the phrase “in Christ”. There is nothing worse to sign your name to except perhaps “love in Christ”. Like what, you couldn’t love me apart from Christ? 🙄 One of my many pet peeves from fundyhood!
@I’m not telling…I agree 100%.
@Renee I was saying that “Kind Regards” was the III’s way of basically saying Go to hell. 😯
I’m pretty sure “kind regards” is merely a snobbier form of “bless your heart” here.
Where were the Scripture references to back up his belief?
I love how NO SCRIPTURE whatsoever is given to prove his point. He relies solely on tradition. “This is they we have always done it” crap really gets to me. These people never stop to question if “they way we have always done it” is scriptural or not they just blindly follow. Sheeple, they are just plain sheeple.
We’ve always hated the blacks before, we aren’t going to stop just cause it’s unpopular….
Years ago the bus director at the IFB church I attended was criticizing a white young man in our church because he was dating a black girl. I asked the bus director “I am white and I am intrested in a Hispanic girl in our church. Are you saying I’m wrong for that?” He replied “That’s different!” And then continued on criticizing the young man. 😐
yup, that’s completely different for some reason that they won’t explain.
This is from 1995? unbelievable. I had no idea. I thought they had recanted of these beliefs when our generation as he puts, made it unpopular.
Boaz probably shouldn’t have married that foreign woman either. That really messed up the messiah’s bloodline.
“Mud-Blood”
Was the Harry Potter reference intentional, Don? 🙂
yep, saw it this weekend. Thought it fit in the context of the comment. 🙂
there was a great quote in the new movie about anyone seeing Harry, and doesn’t tell get’s in trouble. Anyone who knows someone who knows equally gets in trouble.
So PCC.
A good point. Also, Ruth and possibly Bathsheba were of another ethnicity. (I say possibly since she was the wife of a Hittite).
Bathsheba was Jewish, her husband (who is depicted as a noble and pious man) was a Proselyte. The idea of race as we know it today is not an ancient view at all. But Solomon married the daughter of Pharaoh.
I do not want to get into this too much. I have not heard what you wrote so I will look into it. It does bear mentioning that her name means literally “daughter of Sheba” in Hebrew. Sheba was an ancient kingdom in either Yemen or Ethiopia or possibly both since they are geographically close to each other.
Let’s not forget Rahab, who in addition to being non-Jewish was also a prostitute. Or Timothy, whose Greek father had absolutely no bearing on his place in the church.
Or Joseph (of Genesis) who married the daughter of the priest of a foreign god and then later says that all things were done by God, including his arranged marriage to an Egyptian (arranged by Pharaoh, but ultimately arranged by God).
Fundy’s, not letting Scripture stand in the way of their opinions since prayer was removed from schools in the 1960’s.
And even Paul. Wasn’t Paul Half-Roman or at least a little Roman?
Paul was a Roman citizen, but much like being a US citizen, it doesn’t really shed any light on his ethnicity. Since he was also a highly trained religious leader, I’d wager he was 100% Jewish.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
nope, didn’t help
All I can think of is
The Jones EMPIRE Strikes Back
If he (Peter) could be turned, he would be a powerful ally.
-Bob “Darth Vader” Jones III
You must unlearn what you have learned.
-Yoda
It’s hard to back a position with Scripture when there is no Scripture that backs it up.
Bingo!
I really wonder what Dr Bob (any of them) would make of my son and his girlfriend. Her family is black, though they consider themselves racially-mixed. She, however, is albino, and her skin is whiter than my son’s. They can walk down the street together, and you really can’t tell she’s not “caucasian” (especially since she likes to straighten and dye her naturally blonde hair a flaming red).
So, Dr. Bob. What say you to this? 😈
I guess maybe his head would explode??? “What are we going to do!! We can’t pin this one down into one of our neatly color-coded race boxes!! AHHH!!!”
Of course, the alternative of believing “it doesn’t matter” can never be considered… 🙄
I guess adoption would be out of the question too. orphans of a different color are on their own.
Sixth paragraph, second sentence.
“…and the issue for which Miriam, his sister, was judged by God was her criticism of the leader God appointed and the divisiveness that it brought.”
See how he turns it around to creating divisiveness by criticizing the “leader God appointed”?
Smooth job of comparing Miriam and the recepient of this letter. See the 3rd paragraph:
“…you do have to keep your disagreement to yourself…”
There was definately a veiled threat of God’s judgement implied in this letter.
So typical for a mannogid with a super-sized ego. 🙄
When my three daughters were young, they are now grown with 11 children between them, they had a youth group leader that was black with a white wife. They were great and did a wonderfull job with the group. my daughters asked me one day what I would think if they wanted to marry black guys. My answere was “I’m not sure, I don’t think there would be anything wrong (morally) with that but I would discourage you from having kids” The reason I gave is that they would be making choises for people two or three generations or more down the line. Geneticly a black or a white baby could pop up in a family of the other color for generations.
Am I wrong? Probably. But have you ever seen the movie “Pinky” Also there is the joke:
A farmer went a lawyer.
Farmer: I just got to git a DEvorce. It’s just got to be done.
Lawyer: Why? Do you have a case?
Farmer: Nope. I went with the John Deer. It’s a better tractor.
Lawyer: No no, Do you have a grudge?
Farmer: Why ‘course I got a g’rudge, Were do you think I keep the John Deer?
Lawyer: No no no! I mean, why do you want the divorce? Is she a nagger?
Farmer: Nope! No, she’s a little white gal but the BAB’s a nagger. That’s why we got to git the DEvorce!
No, I don’t have a hood and appologies to those who find this offensive but it makes my point.
“Y” George “Y”
“…but I would discourage you from having kids” The reason I gave is that they would be making choises for people two or three generations or more down the line.”
But aren’t YOU making choices for people two or three generations or more down the line by discouraging this?
tlorz2: I would be afraid of people 2 or 3 generations down the line being racist and ignorant as you are. Shame on you! Geez!
+1
Sorry Dude – its 2011 and we are all God’s children. If it weren’t for the older generation still perpetrating racism – it wouldn’t exist. My kids don’t know the difference between black, white, Asian, Spanish, et all. My kids friends of these ethnicities have names and that is we refer to them by their name. My kids are free to marry any one of them if they so choose.
Wow, yep I’ll agree with you, you’re wrong. If you know it yourself to be wrong then why say it? If you are going to say it then why issue a disclaimer? You said it so either claim it for what it is or don’t say it at all because you know what it is. Why try and “whitewash” your comment? Don’t beat around the bush just say it straight out, “I don’t want one of them in the family.”
Your comment was a “back door” way of saying it without saying it.
There is great Cuban poem that keeps asking “…y tu abuela, ande ta?” (adonde esta?)
which reminds the reader: You who think you are so racially pure… why are you hiding your grandmother?
There was a reason for the book of Ruth, which was precisely to make fun of those who claimed racial purity for King David. (and later Jesus.)
There is even a Palestinian whore (Jericho) in the same genealogy.
Well, those were about the comments I expected. First, I am not racist. Racist would mean that I think that a particular race is superior or inferior to another. I don’t. I would really have no problem having “one of those” in my family. You are probably right that in this day and age an event such as a white baby showing up in a black family or a black baby showing up in a white family would never cause a problem…
I’m reposting a reply I made to another comment earlier:
—
Merriam-Webster defines racism as “a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.” Notice the part before the conjunction: that race is the *primary determinant of human traits and capacities.* Even if you don’t believe one race is inherently superior to another, making judgements about who should date/marry whom, interact with whom, employ or be employed by whom, etc. based on race is racism.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism
—
I’m not sure exactly what point your story was trying to make. That if your child marries someone of a different color, your great-grandchild may be falsely accused of infidelity? 😕 Maybe a better way to deal with that issue would be to create a legacy of valuing truth over ignorance. Scientific truth such as basic human genetics, and moral truth such as trust being the basis of a healthy marriage.
I’ve never met anyone who came out and said, “I’m a racist and proud of it.” However, it’s been my observation that if a statement has to be preceded by the disclaimer, “I’m not a racist, but…” the statement is going to be racist, and the person making it is in serious denial.
“Genetically a black or a white baby could pop up in a family of the other color for generations.”
So?
The only people who care are small pockets of fundies and others who don’t matter, and a few professional racists here and there who don’t matter either. The rest of us don’t care, and I think most of us feel multi-hued families are a *good* thing.
That anyone would ever forego having children because those kids might (gasp) break down the melanin in their skin at a different rate? I can’t wrap my brain around that thought. I simply can’t fathom such a choice.
FWIW, the notion that racism is only racism if there is a hierarchy of value is, IMO, a false one. In my opinion, treating people differently based on the color of their skin rather than their character and personality is racism regardless of whether one is assigning rank. And I do consider all policies prohibiting dating between different “races” to be racist, on that basis.
On the topic of Moses and his black wife (and yes, she was black, cf. Jer. 13:23), I think it is interesting that the Bible says Miriam’s punishment was to have her skin turned *white* by leprosy until she repented. “If black isn’t good enough for you, let’s see how you like white.”
I disagree with Ken Ham on a lot of things, but there is one thing he got absolutely right: there is one race, and that race is “human”.
You’ll have to forgive my ignorance in this matter, as I’m British and went to a ‘liberal’ Christian college (y’know, the unbigotty kind), but what are the chances of, and the punishment for, a right hook to the jaw of racist college presidents?
None actually. Unlike in Europe, where hate speech like this is punishable by law, this counts as ‘free speech’ and the exercise of freedom of religion. American Christians are some of the subversive racist people I know.
I was actually asking about the legality of punching the man (if racism doesn’t disqualify for ‘human’ status).
Well, you’d probably be in trouble with the representatives of the law, but you’d have the backing of more students than the administration would like to admit.
I spent one year at that brainwashing institution, and good ol’ Triplesticks was one of the most arrogant people I encountered during my stay there.
That’s. Just. Ridiculous. 🙁
I remember, back in the early 90’s, asking a friend of mine–a student at BJU–how he justified BJU’s racist policy. His response:
“I think BJU wants to err on the side of right.”
How do you err on the side of right? If you err, doesn’t that make you automatically wrong?
I love asking a BJU grad that same question.
Love watching them squirm.
At first, I thought I might make some connection between attending a public university and not believing everything they teach you – but that would be silly. You don’t receive demerits or severely reprimanded at a public university for not being 100% in line with their beliefs.
🙄
That’s keep to the right wing
I think it’s more like they want to err on the side of “white”.
Kudos to Peter for challenging the status quo, but he could have used a better line of questioning. Just because Moses married someone of different color wouldn’t make it right, since the Scripture is silent about his choice. He could make a far better case by pointing out Gal. 3:26: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
Not that it would have mattered to BJIII anyway. I’m sure they had some way of getting out of it.
Does BJU still teach that blackness is the “curse of Ham”?
Look, if a so-called Christian college still teaches that the earth is 6,000 years old and that we are all descendants of Adam and Eve, then they’ve got to offer some explanation for the mix that appeared in that woodpile. I guess the Ham story if as good as any.
Nephilim splains it all. Fallen angels having sex with daughters of men, that’s how the blood line was polluted. Thus the basis for Greek and Roman mythology. 😉 ????
So much wrong with this letter.
“I am not inclined to because . . . you want to argue.” God forbid that a young, maturing fundamentalist actually use his God-given brain to question the possibility that fundamentalist leaders and positions are fallible, to test things against scripture (and, yes, reason), and to challenge leadership to consider whether they’ve erred on a question that has caused much division and shame for the cause of Christ.
“40-50 years ago in America it was understood by believers”: One wonders where in scripture American Christianity in the 1940s and 1950s was established as the gold standard for fidelity to the faith. And if unquestioning fealty to tradition (even on a non-creedal issue) is the hallmark of fundamentalism, why the hell aren’t they all Catholics (or Orthodox)?
“You do have to keep your disagreement to yourself, because griping isn’t tolerated.” Note the ease with which the Founder’s Wisdom rolls of BJIII’s pen (surprised he didn’t also toss in a quick No-doubt-the-problem-is-with-you, though I guess it’s implied strongly enough). But also note how public disagreement is labeled as griping: Perhaps not surprising, as the average fundamentalist can’t distinguish between expressing disagreement and being disagreeable.
Good reasoning.
Aren’t we supposed to believe in the individual priesthood of the believer? Aren’t we supposed to search Scripture like the Bereans? Oops, I guess not. We’re just supposed to shut up and obey. Doesn’t sound Scriptural to me!!
It’s like a bad guy in a movie penned this note. Slick with an evil undercurrent.
“You do have to keep your opinions to yourself you know… not tolerated…”
As he sends his henchmen to take care of this mess.
I also love the implications of BJIII’s reasoning: Interracial marriage violates the will of God. Indeed, it’s an abomination (after all, it leads straight to one world government and the antichrist, right?). But it’s still wrong for criticizing a God-appointed leader for committing this sin. Really? WTF? The only way this can be true is if it is always improper to confront the man-o-gawd with his sin, even if it is public and blatant. Either that, or interracial marriage isn’t wrong. One or the other has to be true.
I suppose the reaction to discontent among the sheep when the shepherd is found to be “dallying” with one of the lambs – How dare you question God’s man! – is not surprising, given this underlying mindset, which to my mind is satanic.
If it weren’t so ridiculously evil, it would be amusing that “Peter” (apparently at the tender age of college student) was able to trick BJIII into blatantly admitting his own longing for more racist times in churches across the country.
If Peter’s parents were paying the tuition to this diploma mill, I wonder how they would react to this letter?? The arrogance is unbelievable. Even if the parents were hard-core fundies, the “shut up and color” tone of the letter (should) make them see BJIII and BJU in a new light.
You would hope that ANY adults with half a brain would find this letter repulsive, but sadly the fundies I was most closely associated with wouldn’t. They’d more likely reprimand their child for having the audacity to even question the wisdom of god’s anointed. Plus, they were pretty racist themselves, so they’d probably agree with every word he said. Disgusting, I know.
Is this really an authentic letter? I just can’t believe the obvious “I’m smart, you’re an idiot” tone!
My thoughts also. Tell me this is a joke Darrell. Tell me that someone wrote this as a prank. It is hard to believe that a leader of any type of institution would write something like this.
I have no way of knowing whether it’s authentic or not, but I can tell you that the tone of the letter matches perfectly what I heard and experienced during my time there (and growing up in a BJU satellite church). It also fits BJ III’s preaching style, unfortunately. The anger, the defensiveness, the arrogance, the harsh judgment–I’ve seen it time and again.
So if it’s a fake, it’s a very good one.
About 15 years ago, I received a similarly toned letter from a famous fundy female leader (known for her inductive Bible studies) when I questioned her pre-mill/rapture views on the book of Revelation. She basically said she’s smarter and more well-read than I, and that I too should shut up and color. That incident began my search that has landed me safely home in the Orthodox Church.
I had a slight disagreement with the student affairs department of my Fundy U alma mater over when/where headcoverings were appropriate (I was covering during church services and chapel at the time). When I deigned to bring my father’s authority into the equation, I was told to my face that my parents had sent me to the school and that placed the school’s authority in the more immediate position. If there was a difference between what my parents wanted me to do and what the school wanted me to do, I was to follow the school’s directive because the school’s authority had replaced my parents’ authority. All of which was stated in a tone equivalent to a slap in the face, as though I was an upstart brat that needed to be put in my place.
I have no doubt believing that this letter is real.
@Renee. yep! My mother was constantly facing down an administrator even at the Elementary level who was subverting parental authority. This is what happens an institution thinks they are THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Unfortunately, anyone who has sat under the throne of BJIII could probably atest that this is typical for him. He was/is a very arrogant man masquerading as one of the most humble people on the planet. Seems to be a pervasive attribute amongst the admin, actually (cough, cough Jim Berg cough cough) 🙄
@AdamZ. Jones and Berg masquerade as humble? I missed the masquerade. 😀
The nasty, condescending tone was the first thing that really got to me, too. I couldn’t believe a president would write something so unprofessional. I went to a conservative Bible college too, but I can’t imagine my president writing something so childish-sounding and without decent arguments to back up his point.
Seems he went off the rails immediately after “Dear Peter”.
Interestingly, it’s not just a Southern fundy thing. One of my still fundy friends told my that his MIL just went on a rant against someone in their church who had adopted a child who wasn’t white. Her words, “Why would they do that? Why not adopt a white child and raise them as your own?” Sheeeeeesh
They all need this, “God is not a white Man” by Gungor
http://youtu.be/-WybvhRu9KU
So much for the “it’s not important and we never discuss it” words on Larry King in 2000.
BJIII clearly has at least a BS in … BS.
Anyone else notice that, in this sentence, disagreement automatically qualifies as “griping”? Regardless of how that disagreement is expressed?
Even more astonishing to me is the fact that an institution that squashes independent thinking, discussion, and even questioning has the audacity to call itself a “University.”
Wow.
😯
Nasty, arrogant tone of the letter aside, just imagine how astonished Haile Selassie I would have been, and how astonished current Amharic Ethiopians will be, to learn that they are not black.
Of course, human race is always a matter of social definition (not a biological category), but of all the strange prohibitions in the Bible, I can’t find any against interracial marriage. When Paul talks about being “unequally yoked,” he refers to the religion, not the race, of one’s partner.
“Haile Selassie, the former ruler of Ethiopia, and the ruling family are not black.” (Note present tense.)
Can Bob Jones III really not have known that Haile Salassie and his family had not held power since 1974, and that Selassie himself had been dead for over 20 years at the time of this letter?
I am rarely ever surprised anymore at the poor grammer.
“…but that is how your note comes across.”
English 101 – NEVER end a sentence with a preposition.
If this response wasn’t confrontational enough, causing the reader to become more appalled at Bob Jones University, the poor grammer is enough to show that Triple Stix is just as stupid as the university’s WRITTEN rule. The university had written down this rule – it wasn’t just “understood”. So, to make the implication that the south had this unwritten rule about interracial marriage and that’s why BJU adopted the “rule” – the parallel just wreaks of stupidity. Not only does he NOT support this stance with the Bible, he flippantly represents the university … and with poor grammer.
What happened to directing all questions to the PR department?
And I’m not surprised by poor spelling.
Eff.
I knew when I started writing that comment that I would inevitably misspell something, to totally negating my entire argument.
“Grammar”
But, to be fair, I’m at work typing this up on the DL (so sue me!), and I don’t have a PR department to proof me. If I used the word “grammar” one time, I could argue it was a careless error, but I used it too many times to do that. Totally solidifies my inability to use spell check.
😳
BUT! I think the point still stands.
HAHAHA!! It’s grammar!
Cut me some slack! 👿
Line me up for Larry King! Oh, eff.
Haha you said eff! That’s awful! Obviously you meant the bad word. I got yelled at by my RA for that…… 😯
“English 101 – NEVER end a sentence with a preposition.”
It is generally acceptable to end an English sentence with a preposition, even in standard formal English. The “no ending prepositions” rule is a carryover from Latin, but English is primarily a Germanic language.
“This is the kind of English I will not put up with” is no less grammatically correct than “This is the kind of English up with which I will not put”.
Even Dr. Chapman @ PCC pointed out that this “rule” isn’t a rule at all, and he is about as conservative a grammarian as one will find on this planet.
Citations from primary sources, including Fowler et al (1926 et seq):
http://grammartips.homestead.com/prepositions2.html
And some examples:
http://grammartips.homestead.com/prepositions1.html
Also, there are a few, like “from” that just don’t work in the middle of the sentence any more. “Where did you come from?” works much better than “From whence did you come?” in modern English. haha
That’s really the way to get students to put more things into the “speak to me” box……
What arrogance and selfishness!
That letter encapsulates BJIII precisely. That was his exact demeanor ALL THE TIME while I was there 93-97. That’s how he TALKED in chapel. That is his tone. Like we always said – BJIII, A world-class jackass.
There are so many prisms through which we could view this letter. I think the most helpful is social psychology, viewed through which BJ3 shines through with all the hallmarks of a true bully. The three common markers of a bully are an imbalance of power, the intent to harm, and the threat of further harm. This letter has all three. Sad, really. 🙁
I’m trying to remember the dating policy at the fundy school I attended. I think ‘inter-racial’ dating was allowed as long as there was parental consent. Seriously, parental consent? These are (mostly) adults who should be able to make their own decisions.
One of my teachers was black and was dating (eventually married) a white guy. There were at least two other Caucasian/Hispanic couples when I was attending. I don’t remember ever hearing any chapel messages about it either way.
I’m ashamed to admit that my line of thinking was closer to BJIII when I was younger. Fortunately, I’ve grown out of it and Fundyism as a whole.
@Katherine – I can only speak for the mid 90’s students, but when we were there, no one was confused about whether BJIII wanted any questions like this in his ‘inbox’. I don’t remember the content, but while I was there a fellow student, Asa Hutchinson, wrote a letter to BJIII asking/disagreeing about something he had talked about. At the time, Asa’s dad was a US Congressman from Arkansas, and his uncle was a US Senator from Arkansas. After BJIII got his letter, they “asked him” not to come back the next semester. At the time, one of the most politically connected kids on campus, and BJIII had no problem flipping him the bird because he didn’t like his letter. We all knew if it was a regular student, he would have been very publicly expelled, and nuked from the pulpit the next day. Seeking knowledge at a college is a punishable offense at BJU.
In addition, he really was dumb. I mean like Michael on The Office dumb. While I was there in chapel, the genius was given the task of announcing the new emergency number was 5911. At the time, almost every number on campus started with a 5. So it was axiomatic that we had adopted 911 on campus. But it wasn’t obvious to BJIII. After announcing the new number, he started talking off the cuff. “Fifty-Nine Eleven? Fifty-Nine Eleven! Who’s idea was Fifty-Nine Eleven? What kind of a dumb number to call is that?” I remember thinking out of the roughly 5,000 people sitting in this room, this moron is the only one that can’t figure out the correlation between 911 and 5911. That was the day I permanently dropped the “Dr.” from “Dr. Jones” in my mind.
You’ve put the finger on what’s become a huge stumbling block for me. It’s hard to continue to listen to the BS about God etc that comes out of the pulpit when you realize that the mannagawd is a complete idiot when he speaks on matters that either can be empirically verified or that are perfectly clear to anybody with a lick of common sense. Sometimes one suspects that they’ve gone into the ministry precisely because, on matters of faith, it’s really hard to be caught out on your stupidity because some much is unverifiable and because your church members, at least, are credulous because they want to believe. (And this is not limited to IFBers or CEers; I’ve met plenty of dumb-as-brick liberal prot ministers as well.)
I was there for the “fifty-nine eleven” chapel. I agree. Everyone in the whole auditorium understood 5-911 but him. It was hard not to laugh at him during that rant.
What an A** Bob Jones III is/was. Is he dead yet? My adopted sister happens to be black, and we don’t look at her skin tone before we tell her we love her! So are there “degrees” of blackness that make it acceptable? Dear God, forgive us.
I, unfortunately, believed Dr Bob’s apology on the Larry King Show. If I had known what I know now, or had read this I wouldn’t have gone. This is racism pure and simple. There is no other way to interpret such a letter.
Also I love how he says 40-50 years ago it was just understood in the north and the south. I’m sorry Bobby, but it wasn’t. And even if it were that doesn’t make it right. Basically what he is saying is 40-50 years ago everyone was a racist so it is ok if I’m still a racist today.
Man I wish I never went to that school. I was given a glimpse of their racism and overlooked it. Shame on me.
“And some of them still have the thing that’s stuck was a single bad experience with a “UNIVERSITY PRESIDENT” that would make all of us wince and apologize that that person got chosen [to be “PRESIDENT”.] And had we known in advance that person would have reacted that way, and that those things would’ve come out of that person’s [the PRESIDENTS] mouth, and that that person would’ve demonstrated that kind of Godless pride in dealing with that student under his or her care, we wouldn’t have elevated them.”
Edited from Stephen Jones’ faculty meeting. changing hall leader to President.
FTW!!!
Nope…definitely not going to BJU 😐
I received a similar letter from “Dr.” Bob Wood, VP of BJU in 1978. Actually this letter from “Dr.” BJ3 is more pleasant in tone than the one I received. BJ3 must have mellowed through the years.
I watched the Larry King interview in 2000 and wondered how many people had been expelled or spent time in the admin building because of the interracial dating ban. BJU is a con, a sham “university.” Go where you can think.
If you still have it, and wouldn’t mind, I’m sure a lot of us would enjoy reading…? 🙂
I wish I still had the letter. What’s more amazing is BJ3 would put that in writing in 1995.
Third says: “40-50 years ago in America, it was understood by believers, North and South, that interracial dating was not proper” Soooo…who gives a rat’s-behind what Scripture says, we go with what is “generally understood by believers” for 40 to 50 years…
Totally disgusting…and the main reason I refuse to set foot on the campus. Nothing has changed. Their so-called apology in 2008 was BS. This family is still steeped in racism.
I know, seriously? So now I wonder how much of their doctrine they got simply because it’s something “the Church” accepted and propogated for 1000+ years?
At one time it was generally believed among believers that the earth was flat too. Doesn’t make it so.
Love Rachel Evan’s Evolving in Monkeytown. Believers find it so hard to change with the rest of the world when new knowledge becomes available. It’s ok to change. God doesn’t change, but it’s ok for us to change. Actually, it’s GOOD for us to change, grow and mature.
Hmmm….usually fundies at least like to throw in a proof-text or two. He doesn’t even deign to wrench a verse out of context and use it in his letter like most fundies would. Seriously BJ3? No misapplied references to Solomon or Nehemiah? No references to “wearing garments of mixed fibers” and somehow extrapolating racist BS from that? I think he could have represented fundies better if he had applied himself. 😉
As our country gets more diverse I sincerely hope retro-thinking bigots like BJ3 do not enjoy their inevitable slide into further irrelevance.
Am I the only one who is bothered by the reference to America 40-50 years ago? Back then, white people not only did not marry black people, they did not let them eat in the same restaurants or use the same bathrooms!
You can learn a lot about someone by seeing what makes them nostalgic. A return to Jim Crow seems to be what makes this clown nostalgic.
I don’t think that BJU yet understands just how high a price they will have to pay for their historical (and apparently ongoing) racism. I’m an alum and interracially married. We attend a fairly conservative (albeit Anglican) church, and our child has attended a mix of public schools and Christian (though not your typical IFB or evangelical) schools. We have no TV, so our child hasn’t had much exposure to politically correct cliches, and I tend to mock political correctness when it does come up.
But even when our child was in fifth or sixth grade, the kid would express a deep and instinctual abhorrence of anything even hinting of racism. I grew up in a fairly color-blind environment, but many (most?) kids today just cannot comprehend what all the fuss is about, and statements like the above will get a similar reaction among the rising generation (if it doesn’t already) to the reaction of walking into a cocktail party with your klan robes on. And rightfully so.
Unfortunately, it is we alums that bear the brunt of the fallout, though BJU’s comeuppance will come sooner or later.
“It was understood….” God please have mercy on us. I can’t tell you the sickening feeling of grief and how close to tears I feel now. I looked twice to see if that was BJJr. I really didn’t realize just how nasty BJIII was, and I was there a lot of years. I am so sad. Shouldn’t be completely surprised because when I was a Junior in college a young man asked the Bible Doctrines teacher about Moses’ wife. The teacher made him walk out of the class to go to the Dean of Men’s office and I NEVER SAW HIM AGAIN. :*( I think I can forgive the bald face lie on LKL quicker than I can this graceless, unkind, mean note–to a paying student no less. Sheesh….. This is what I mean when I say that you cannot treat people this badly for so long and expect future generations to pay to be beat up like this. Who’s surprised here?
@Amazed by Grace…Can you share a little more? What did the student ask about Zipporah ❓
Well, he just asked why did American Christians have a problem with interracial marriage when Moses married Zipporah and God defended him. He made the point that other cultures didn’t see it that way. The teacher (Mr. Babb) instantly became visibly upset and almost immediately “fired” him from the classroom. He was practically yelling at him on his way out. He had a pretty long walk up Lecture Room A steps to get out of the room. I believe the year was 1979. I looked for him every day after that in every crowd of people and on every sidewalk and at every event. It troubled me a lot although I never said anything to anyone about it at the time. He probably got an accredited degree at some great institution and has a lucrative career. At least that’s what I’ve always hoped for him. 🙂
But what does the Bible say about the person who “gains the whole world but loses his own racial purity”?
Nincompoops.
I was at seminary with an Ethiopian fellow (whose wife was white), and I can tell Bob Jones III that Ethiopians are NOT white. True, they typically have lighter skin tones than, say, Zambians (there was a Zambian in the class as well), but to call an Ethiopian ‘white’ is just silly.
Does it matter? Only to point out that these racists are WRONG. There is no difference before God, and shame on Bob Jones III for claiming that there is.
I agree.He might as well have said that all South Africans are white. He doesn’t get the whole “war and colonization makes people move around” concept. 🙄
BJU simply doesn’t like letters, especially ones that question or criticize. When my husband was there, he wrote them a professional, respectful letter regarding a new policy change (a new “rule”). Their response was, basically, “we can do whatever we want”, put him in spiritual counseling, and gave him hell the rest of his term there.
So if I were (horror of horrors) a BJU student, I’m getting that the take-away from this note is… that any Ethiopian students should be more than welcome to date white students at BJU, since Ethiopians are NOT black. …Right?…
I still can’t believe that a place that claims to be an institution of higher learning spends ANY time and effort whatsoever on determining who is/isn’t of a certain race (and then, where they fall along the spectrum… are you all white, mostly white, a little bit white, a little bit black…)
Totally and completely disgusting.
What a jag.
Thanks all,
My ex-fundy ManOGawd is BJU (I left Fundyland 6 years ago). I can now see how BJU students are manipulated and abused and can now view them as victims of an evil system.
As a white man married to a black woman…and we are both members and “independent” baptist missionaries, it disgusts me when I have to deal with this junk, although not everyone is this way. Of course 90% of the time, this comes from your KJB, soul winning, bible believing, bus ministry, 1-2-3 pray after me, garbage churches. Seriously, if I didn’t make a commitment to supporting churches to plant Baptist churches, I would be tempted to take the name Baptist out of anything with which I am affiliated, because of garbage like this.