Or, you know…the exact opposite of that.
I’m being told that this is a group from West Coast Baptist College doing missions work in New York City. I have to wonder if anybody bothered to tell the leader dude that having a skinhead haircut may not be the best way to connect with Jewish folk.
And yes, I know, these guys were ambushed and nobody likes having a camera shoved in their face — but would it kill them to smile and be pleasant? One is left with the impression from their discomfort that they’re not really used to having to actually defend their beliefs in the face of opposition.
It messed up their scripted presentation
Busted using the ol’ Bait and Switch technique… 😳
and then not able to hold even a basic conversation with someone… 🙁
Paragons of Christianity! not
More importantly than any of that, you were *first*!
Its Saturday… It was 1:51pm on Saturday… Clearly I don’t have a life… *sniff* “Wowsie-wowsie woo-woo”
Wow, they were totally called out. That was painful to watch. Not exactly demonstrating the Sermon on the Mount, were they?
They claim to know so much but once someone asks them detailed questions, they grow quiet as if they don’t quite know the answers… very sad. 🙁
“Rude”, “sullen”, and “suspicious” are the adjectives that spring to mind.
They looked like they were ashamed of themselves.
they were
They should be! Lying, arrogance, rudeness–that’s all stuff to be ashamed of.
Stop. There, now I’m obviously the leader of this comments section! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
5th!
Those guys from WCBC don’t look too cheerful, do they?
So they’re all for witnessing but once someone starts to ask difficult questions, they walk away? Wow…
That wasn’t covered in their “Witness Training Program” Engaging in actual conversation is not part of the curriculum.
*Stick to the script
*Stick to the script
*we’re busted, we’re busted… Mayday! MAYDAY!
as the go down in flames
Sad really.
It was more than just being questioned – I kind of feel for the kids, to be honest. They were obviously ill prepared, but they were also caught completely off guard by an angry man with a video camera. When you’re being attacked ON FILM you’re going to really try to monitor your words. Honestly, I probably would have walked away, too. Hopefully I would not have demonstrated the anger they did, but who knows. I’m not a fan of the video at all because the person with the camera was very hostile.
How did Christians in the early church react to hostility (often from Jewish people, no less!)
Did they run away?
They weren’t ill prepared; they were loaded up with material to distribute. They were, as we say in the South, “loaded for bear.” They were ill prepared in the sense that they don’t see to be particular equipped to deal with confrontation.
The person has every right to be angry; who likes strangers trying to peddle relgion to them in their home area? Worse, not just sell their religion, but tell Jews how wrong they are – convert people of another religion. This is the height of arrogance. And that arrogance was reveiled in their entitlement to “invade” the area but not feel like they had to answer any questions.
If they were truly doing “the Lord’s work,” you’d think they’d be more willing to share his love and grace, don’t you think? If they were doing work of which they were not ashamed, don’t you think they’d explain themselves?
Michael- Are you saying that people can be saved without Jesus Christ or that we just shouldn’t give them the Gospel, or both?
The man with the camera has no right to be angry. But the unregenerate (of any stripe) are always repelled by the Gospel unless God chooses to save them.
Jesus Christ is the Only Way (John 14)
Ok here is my prognostication for the day.
*let me put on my Prophet’s hat… mantel… whatever*
Someone will come on here see all our less than positive responses and proceed to spank us for our not being on the front lines like these two spiritual heroes. At least they are out there “doing” something. /end prophesy
I first saw this video passed around on Facebook by my fundy leaders/members. Also, the YouTube comments were initially enabled. The FB and YouTube comments were actually fairly positive – keep on doing the good work and may they open their hearts and such. It’s like they totally ignored the fact that… the group got called out and didn’t share anything.
It is impossible to know how to handle situations outside of your IFB world when that is all you’ve ever known. Unless you are doing things on your own terms you don’t know how to even carry on the most basic of conversations.
Tell the guy what you are doing and be honest. Why is it that they find honesty that difficult?
“…not really used to having to actually defend their beliefs in the face of opposition.”
Nah…they just have not had their oral doctrinal exams yet…
LOL! I know these guys…. Being a WCBC alum, I have to say, we ARE taught how to be conversational and to use the Gospel in more than a “scripted” manner. Not gonna lie though, that’s not what happened, and it’s to their shame, not the college’s. I could smack Captain Obviously so hard….
Oh, and for an explanation as to what they’re doing in NYC, they are giving out DVD’s recorded by Tom Cantor, a Christian businessman. The DVD is his testimony of how he came to accept Jesus as the Messiah and his personal Savior, giving evidence from the Jewish OT. Mr. Cantor has a real heart for the Jewish people…and people in general. I just wish everyone working for him had the same manner.
D’oh! I forgot to say that Mr. Cantor is Jewish himself, grew up in Synagogue, etc.
I wish they could have said that. The guy behind the camera questioning them wanted to challenge them because their material had the Star of David on it (bait and switch). I wish they could have just said that the man who made the video was born Jewish and had made the tape for Jewish people instead of acting guilty, confused, and sullen.
“Captain Obviously”
That was great 🙂
@ That One Polish Guy “Nah…they just have not had their oral doctrinal exams yet…”
Answering these questions in an intelligent manner did not require passing a doctrinal exam.
West Coast Baptist College is not that great of a school. The students are trained to hand out carefully crafted marketing materials and not really given the skills to discuss doctrine effectively.
These guys were totally ill-prepared for this trip, as the video clearly shows.
Erm….did you actually GO to WCBC, and did you have the doctrinal oral exam as a senior? Because what you are saying is not really accurate. I went thru the exam. You HAVE to be able to articulate Bible doctrine in an intelligent manner to pass. And let me tell you, they don’t just sit there and ask the questions. Often, they’ll play “devil’s advocate” by taking the position of the Jehovah’s Witness, or the Mormon, or the atheist. And you have to “convince” them. So…maybe you just had a bad experience with a WCBC grad or dropout that really didn’t get it? IDK.
That test really is not that hard. I have actively debated REAL athiests, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics IRL on Bible doctrine. WCBC teaches a lot of stuff which does not hold up well for debate, which is probably why real debates (with real opponents) are not encouraged there.
I have had opportunities to speak with many students. I found most WCBC grads sorely lacking in Bible knowledge and unable to debate their way out of a paper bag.
John Goetsch wrote one of the lamest articles attempting to explain Calvinism (it was so poorly done – and I am not even a Calvinist!), so I can see why WCBC suffers academically.
http://contendearnestly.blogspot.com/2007/02/refutation-of-dr-john-goetsch-against.html
Someone very close to me attended WCBC and considers their academics to be about high school level…”13th grade” was the term they used.
Another graduate told me their real college education started after they began attending a real university as a freshman (they had already earned a bachelors and masters at WCBC, but no employer would accept their unaccredited degree).
I did go to West Coast, graduated in 4 years, and passed the Oral Exam (which sounds dirty but is not) on my first try. They are big on you knowing their interpretation of the KJV, not actual Bible Theology.
That was just painful to watch. Refusing to talk on camera? And all those blank stares and glares? And then there’s this exchange, among several others:
“Are you the leader?”
“Obviously.”
That kid managed to find the worst possible way to respond to everything the guy asked. Unless there was a lot of belligerence on the part of the videographer that was edited out, these guys arrived in NYC chock full of suspicion, ready to respond to persecution with… curtness.
As you would say, “epic lolz”!!!
I have a heart for the Jewish people. My heart for them is that they are left alone to love God and practice their own faith.
I recently worked for a Jewish organization where I was treated with way more decency and respect than for one moment of the six years I worked for a Christian one.
I’ve been treated with more respect by people who were clearly gang members than I have from some Christians… It’s sad, really.
I was treated well by a couple of Bloods. I think they were hitting on me though (thankfully, not ‘hitting’ me).
The guys in this vid, though? ewwww
Seriously! Austin’s right–they were being incredibly offensive.
SFL: Ignoring centuries of Christian persecution of Jews (including forced conversions, torture and murder), entering Jewish neighborhoods and telling Jewish people they need to convert to Christianity. 😯
“But we’re not associated with those (heretic) Christians!” in 3… 2…
Naomi,
I noticed that you didn’t mention all those Christians who worked diligently in Germany to save the lives of Jewish people during WW2 such as Bonhoffer and Corrie Ten Boom. Wishing to give you the benefit of the doubt, I would like to believe that you have just never heard that side of the story in your obviously slanted against Christianity education you received.
There were certainly Christians who saved Jews and others who tried to save Jews, but they were outnumbered by the Christians (at least in name) who helped kill Jews.
World War II is nothing to brag about when it comes to Christian/Jewish relations.
Saying that we shouldn’t preach the gospel to certain people is what’s offensive, Naomi. It would be anti-Semitic not to preach to Jews the saving Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Amen.
Exactly, AMY!
Sorry amyrose but if their “own faith” is not what God requires then there is a problem. All religious roads do not lead to the Father. They need Christ whether we/they/all peoples agree or not. It is as simple as that.
left alone? to practice their own faith? so you do not believe Acts 4:12 or John 14:6?
Do you not believe Rom 1:16?
Because Jews living in NYC have definitely never heard of Jesus, and will be awed & amazed by this DVD….
Amy, if you will not preach to Jews the only saving Gospel of Jesus Christ then you do not love the Jewish people. You are letting them perish.
As a recent survivor of WCBC, I can confirm that those people are from WCBC. Also, that is their usual way of dealing with conflict. They’ve never really put any thought into actually finding the most effective way to reach people, just the most offensive way…. Fortunately I escaped into the “liberal wasteland” before they got me 😉
Good for you! I found this video from WCBC alum. It’s good to know that there is hope for free thought even in my circles..
So Austin, buddy ol’ pal, the question is….if you disagree so much with the school you graduated from…are you gonna send back your diploma? And by the way… I really don’t know what Personal Evangelism class you attended, but Bro. Ferrso and Bro. Lester never taught an “offensive” means of reaching people.
In fact, I am pretty sure they told us NOT to be offensive. They also told us to be conversational, bond with the folks, not just shove a script down their throat. But hey…maybe I was just sleeping in class…just imagining they said these things…
😆
SFL: Asking Christian school grads with any disagreement (large or small) with their alma mater when they’re going to “return” their degree.
🙄
I will return my degree when WCBC returns all the blood, sweat, tears and thousands of dollars it cost me to earn it. And as I look back on it I do not think the degree I got was worth the price I paid
and what about give you a time machine to get back the 4 years you wasted there?
Beth, I can’t tell you how many times I have wished for something like that.
@That One Polish Guy, “if you disagree so much with the school you graduated from…are you gonna send back your diploma?”
Is WCBC gonna refund all the money he wasted on that almost useless piece of paper they call a diploma?
I know a few people who would GLADLY exchange their “diploma” for a full refund!!!
LOL! Jason, we replied at almost the same time!!
Yup, refunds!!!
I want a refund. They could demand my diploma if they wanted to, as I go to the Village Church, use multiple translations, and would describe myself as Reformed. They can take my diploma, in exchange for four years and forty grand.
I paid thousands of dollars for a sheet of printer paper with ink on it. If they wanted to refund me half or a quarter of that I would gladly return it. I would use the money to pay for my real college degree.
“I really don’t know what Personal Evangelism class you attended, but Bro. Ferrso and Bro. Lester never taught an “offensive” means of reaching people.”
Apparently the kind folks in the video didn’t attend the class either.
Or maybe they did…
“if you disagree so much with the school you graduated from…are you gonna send back your diploma?”
This is an indication that this “school” is a fake school.
Most definately!
And the “diploma” is not worth the price of the paper it is written on.
It also indicates the pastor/college founder is a control freak. Seriously, what kind of ego does it take to demand alumni agree with everything you do?
Why can’t people get it into their heads that effective evangelism entails actually befriending people and getting to know them so as to be able to relate on a deep level, rather than just shoving the gospel at them with the assumption that they’re going to be interested in what’s being presented?
Fundies (and many evangelicals) just don’t get it. And then they use the excuse, “Well, it’s the ‘offense of the cross.’ People reject it because they don’t want to hear it.” Yeah, right. What’s offensive is the way it’s communicated.
I am SO glad I’m not part of that whole subculture anymore.
There’s no glamour and no glory in living among a community, getting to know them, meeting needs when you see them, letting people meet your own needs when necessary, being humble and unselfish and faithful and loving.
It’s easier to stay in your own enclave, venturing out to pass out tracts or buttonhole strangers on the street, then retreating to the bunker where everyone can praise you for your courage and your suffering for Jesus. It’s easy then too to become self-righteous and begin to despise the lost because they rejected you, instead of being like Jesus, who sat outside Jerusalem and WEPT over them.
“There’s no glamour and no glory in living among a community, getting to know them,” Besides, to commune with and to relate to them might expose you to sinners who are content in thier sin and you might be drawn into it. Without a real relationship with Christ that is just too much to risk.
1. Be ye separate, saith the Lord. Soulwinning = wham, bam, thank you ma’am.
2. Getting to know people would entail actual dialogue (rather than preaching monologue to a captive audience), which would entail critical thought and debate, both no-nos.
3. It’s easier to dismiss negative experiences and revise any witnessing experience as positive and impactful if only you and your group are reporting back. If other groups were in dialogue, it would be harder to control their reactions.
I remember my youth pastor being told by a kid that he was persecuted for his faith because he was being teased for passing out tracts at his middle school. The youth pastor corrected him and told him he was being teased because he was weird and not getting to know his fellow students, he was just shoving tracts in their face and having no real interaction with them. That really stuck with me. It was so much more important to build true relationships with people than to just “soul win.” I still don’t get that term either.
^^^
Yes!
Where were the lady missionaries?
Maybe these guys would have been better recieved if they rode bicycles and wore white shirts with black ties?
Too true. There’s no other difference.
whoever sent them to a Jewish neighborhood in Brooklyn should have told them to expect this.
No doubt.
@Jenn – “whoever sent them to a Jewish neighborhood in Brooklyn should have told them to expect this.”
Exactly!!!! Seriously, what did they expect?
These young men did not receive proper training and were totally taken by surprised. They often looked like deer caught in headlights, and then their “obvious leader”…Well, lets just say I find it interesting that the West Coast Baptist College administration chose this guy to lead the pack.
there was a messianic congregation that used to rent the chapel space from a Brooklyn church in a Jewish part of town. They have no problem with a church being there, but the messianics are another story. I went to that service with my husband and he was accosted by one man who would harass the members every Saturday as they got out of their cars and walked to the church. He would stand out there and yell during the service. I personally was caught off guard, when we got out of our car and this man came over called my husband a “pig” and asked him if he is a Jew going to church. At first I thought it was a friend making a joke.
I can actually somewhat relate to these guys. In the last fundy church I attended, I was part of a group of people about the age of the guys in the video who served on our “visitation team”. For three weeks, the MOG ordered us to take clipboards and go door to door in several neighborhoods and ask people how many of the ten commandments they could name. Being “good servants”, we went out and did this even though we were EXTREMELY uncomfortable doing so. If anyone asked us WHAT we were doing, we could tell them. If anyone asked us WHY, we were speechless. We had no idea why we were doing it. We got a mix of reactions from those whose doors we knocked upon, from derision to anger to embarrassment to outright laughter (can’t blame them – we were in our fundy uniforms – long dresses and skirts and suits and ties). A horrible experience.
Oh, and we later found out the reason why we were doing this. The MOG wanted “evidence” for a sermon on the “decline of society”. 🙄
Funny how he didn’t tell you that BEFORE he assigned that task…
If he had told you his purpose for the survey upfront it could have created some interesting discussions at the doorstep:
Fundy Church member, “Hi, I am from the KJVO Fundamental Modestly Dressed With God-Honoring Music Baptist Church. We are in your neighborhood taking a survey about the 10 commandments. Would you be willing to take part in this survey?”
Resident, “Why are you taking this survey?”
Fundy Church Member, “Our mannogid wants proof that your ignorance about the 10 commandments has directly led to the decline of our society.”
That sounds just like one of those “and that’s when the fight started” jokes.
Def sounds like the start of a police report! 🙂
@usedtobefundy I remember those surveys! When were you there?
I was a church member for way too many years. Started attending before the college started, back in the old building (I am sure you heard the history story of the old location and Chappell’s “miraculous early years” only a million times, LOL! 🙄 )…and I am still trying to repress it all.
Now I really want a reuben sandwich.
“Captain Obvious” looks a lot, a lot like Ryan Gosling in “The Believer”
http://www.google.ca/search?q=ryan+gosling+the+believer&hl=en&biw=1366&bih=588&prmd=ivnso&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=BNMYTsCUGcns0gH4yp3NBQ&sqi=2&ved=0CCEQsAQ
Exactly what I was thinking as soon as I saw him!
Did these kids really think they would be any match for the average New Yorker? Seriously? The man had some reasonable questions. Captain Obviously needs an attitude adjustment.
I wish these young men had been able to live up to 1 Tim. 2:24 – “And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.” (I admit they weren’t really quarreling but that’s because they weren’t even answering the guy’s questions.)
Or James 3:17 – “But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.” I just didn’t see this kind of attitude from them. And if someone were to say that they’re rather young to be able to respond this way, then I say they’re too young to be confronting strangers on the street and trying to witness to them.
They are probably too young and not knowledgeable enough about what they were doing to actually do it (ref. my little story above)!
They probably don’t understand those verses because they learned them in the KJV and so it is shoved into a long list of verses that they have memorized but do not actually understand and do not actually apply.
Maybe I am projecting my own problems with the KJV onto these poor boys
There’s nothing cuter than an attractive yet flustered fundie boy.
Ha! Just what I was thinking. 😈
Oh, Lord forgive me, I was thinking the same thing. Rude and sullen, but oh so adorable. Bless his heart…
I’m sure those kids could do a “Jewish Outreach” to Miami Beach in January. That was beyond painful. Whoever sent these kids out to do that should be shot.
The guys from the Bible college didn’t respond to well to be confronted by the camera guy, however I think it shows typical New York City pushiness. I will never understand why New Yorkers are not better mannered and can not act more civilly towards people. Down South, where I live people would have just taken the packet and if they did not want to read it, they would just toss in a junk drawer in the kitchen and forgot about it. They would not follow people up the street and harass them. He needs to be taught some manners.
Um, Chad, they were passing out anti jewish propaganda. Slapping a Star of David on the slick mailer, trying to disarm unsuspecting people. Jews really don’t care for that sort of thing – there’s some history there ya know. Rude? How about deceitful men looking to steal your children’s hearts and minds? They are lucky they didn’t get shanked. I wonder what would happen down south if Queer Nation started handing out pro GLTB with a big ole Cross on the envelope…..
I don’t call handing out a Christian DVD anti-Jewish. Especially when it was made by a Jewish Christian from what I can tell from the video. The truth is the best friends the Jewish people have are Conservative Christians, we actually believe they have a right have their homeland, unlike many mainline groups who would have Israel give up everything to the Arabs.
Chad, would love to get into the history of Western antisemitism from the blood money rumors, to the passion plays to the Holocaust, much of it supported by The Church, both Catholic and Protestant and then its import into North America, but I just don’t have the energy. But, I did give you some stuff to Google.
brilliant… 😎
I disagree. These guys invaded his neighborhood, and then wouldn’t answer simple questions about what they were doing. They clearly weren’t from the area, and the guy was trying to get them say why they were there. He didn’t seem all that pushy, and had they answered his pretty simple questions, I think he would have let up.
No one’s gonna see this reply, but I wanted to comment on the fact that New Yorkers are not rude, they have a different SET of manners. In New York it is considered, if not polite, then “the done thing” to say who you are and what your problem is in a straightforward manner. if you have a problem with someone, you say so. Smiling, taking what you’re given and disliking it in silence is considered pointlessly passive-aggressive at best and maliciously two-faced at worst.
New Yorkers and Southerners have very different ideas of what is polite, entirely aside from the fact that what the missionaries were trying to do has some very bad history with Jews in the first place.
the video says they are a group from North Carolina. That would not be West Coast
You don’t have to be from California to go to school there. I’m just sayin.
true.. but I am was just assuming that if the entire group was from North Carolina that they would be from a church or school there.
Honestly, they don’t look “IFB” enough to be from West Coast I don’t think. West Coast is all about looking extra sharp..too sharp of course… but that shaved hair and the little bit offacial hair on the other guy wouldn’t be allowed.
also… West Coast college kids go out door knocking like a ridiculous amount of times in a week and would probably be a little bit better about having an answer for these guys than that. Not trying to defend West Coast but I definitely do not think these guys are from there.
They are, I recognize several of them.
This type of “outreach” is more about the outreacher than the outreachee. “Can you stand up to opposition?” not in the sense of giving an answer but in having the ability not to run away screaming “Mommy” 🙄
a huge amount of blame needs to be placed on West Coast for this. If you send out a group of guys to a group of Jewish men and women in Brooklyn, you need to educate them on what to do and what not to do.
Then again, these guys need some common sense and need to know that this is not how you treat people ever, period.
Plus, they need to realize they were not sent to Brooklyn to pass out tracts. They were sent to give the gospel, with their lives most importantly.
You can tell these guys didn’t really want to do this.
You know, the first time I watched this I thought “what a bunch of jackasses.”
But with each subsequent time I’ve begun to realize that these guys are scared out of their minds and that’s what is driving their actions. They’re in a big city surrounded by hostile strangers and given absolutely nothing to work with.
They probably do expect to get shanked.
Yep. I feel so sorry for these kids on unfamiliar territory, doing something they’ve been told all their lives is a grand and glorious work for Christ. They’re scared witless. A real NYC Jew is talking to us; he probably is going to shoot one of us dead.
I just want to invite them home and fix them a nice homecooked meal. you know. Build relationships so that I can speak truth into their lives. 😎
As long as it’s Kosher OI-VEY!!
Just kidding. I love the Jews. I have a huge respect for them. The fundys could learn a lot about life and how to treat one another and outsiders from them.
One has to wonder why is it these people in larger cities always seem to get hostile so much quicker than smaller areas. This is the reason I would avoid large cities like NYC, LA, or Chicago. Try Atlanta, Miami, Philly, or even Vegas. In the first three cities you would not be allowed to carry any weapon to protect yourself, just get mugged and wait for the ambulance. In the second groups of cities, you would be able to carry a means of self-protection. Street ministry can be a dangerous undertaking, thats why a couple of .380 automatics in your pockets can be a life saver.
I’m *really* hoping that was sarcastic. Because I live in Philly, and another J. Frank Norris-type scandal is *just* what the gospel needs in this city to move forward, yes sir.
You can’t just shoot someone because you feel threatened. In PA, you need to see a weapon, and you need to have good reason to suspect that the other party is going to kill, kidnap, or rape you or someone else, and that killing that person is the only way to prevent those things from happening. Oh, and you have to be innocent of wrongdoing in the argument, so if you start the argument by harassing people on the street, you lose the ability to defend yourself with lethal force, no matter how the shooting might have gone down, because the assumption is you wouldn’t have needed to defend yourself if you hadn’t harassed that person in the first place.
If you think you’re going to come to Philly with a tract in one pocket and a Saturday Night Special in the other, then GO HOME AND STAY HOME.
I know of two families who moved into inner city Detroit. They’re meeting their neighbors, getting involved in the community, and holding home Bible studies. They don’t simply visit the city and had out tracts to anonymous strangers; instead they’re investing their lives to reach people they care about. American cities need the Gospel.
tmountjr,
I live in Philly too! Well, I do now. We just moved here a few weeks ago. I’m a missionary of sorts, but not even close to a Fundy type, especially the kind from this video. I got my start in mercy work with the poor in Gary, IN, and now am here to do the same thing in Philly. Maybe we’ll run into each other some day. I promise I don’t have any tracts or sales pitch for you.
Seriously?? Looks like somebody’s never visited the Big City before. Something seems odd about strapping on the holsters in order to go witness. Can’t put my finger on it… 😕
Joshua – look me up in the forums and send me a PM. I’m “mounty” in there and usually out here, too, except that I think last night I was too tired to remember which handle I use. 🙂
And here I thought you folks WANTED to be martyrs…
Maybe this experience will open their minds and push some of them outside that narrow box in which they have been living most of their lives. Experiencing the real world may be the first step in fundy recovery for some of these, possibly well-meaning (in their small world) young men. Of course, the aforementioned “captain obviously” just comes off like a jerk who doesn’t like to be questioned. Future MOG? Methinks yes! 😛
I just got this in my e-mail
You can take that for what its worth.
That legitimately made me sick to my stomach to watch. Who are they worshiping? They’re “sharing the gospel?” why? they don’t seem to know anything about it or give a rip whatsoever.
Ohhhh, religion.
To be a witness, you have to have witnessed something. That’s the problem with modern-day, door-to-door “witnessing” – they’re only repeating rote knowledge. They haven’t experienced anything close to the life that Jesus talks about, much less be able to talk about it.
Don said there was going to be spankings! Spankings and Oral Exams all on one thread. Glad I showed up!
My former pastor Eldon Martens always stressed never to stray from the script…always bring them back to your script. Watching this video, they look like a cult.
It seems to me that the leader of the group wasted an opportunity to give the gospel. When the man with the camera asked who they were and what they were doing the leader should have gone right into the gospel. But instead he got defensive. Maybe the cameraman was a jerk but the quickest way to deal with a man like that is to start witnessing to him.
Don said there was going to be spankings! Spankings and Oral Exams all on one thread. Glad I showed up!:mrgreen:
My former pastor Eldon Martens always stressed never to stray from the script…always bring them back to your script. Watching this video, they look like a cult.
Eldon Martens was your pastor? I’ve known his family for years. I attend the church he founded in Escondido
As a Jew who has often been approached by the oh so zealous I have to say I never cease to be amazed by their assumptions that somehow I have lived my whole life in the United States of America without having heard one single thing about Christianity. They seem to think that because they know nothing about my religion I must also know nothing about theirs! Add to that their lack of knowledge of history and their own texts…Good grief. Why do they bother?
I find it amusing the rock star treatment given to Jewish converts to Christianity, and the obvious disappointment of those who salivate on hearing I’m Jewish when they realize they’re not going to get any bragging rights with me! Having spent a fair amount of time around them, however, I have little doubt that many of them return to their churches and lie through their teeth about ‘witnessing’ to this Jew and confounding me with their brilliant arguments…
Yael,
most of the jewish convert stories are shams. Jews For Jesus were founded by a bunch of Evangleicals who grew out their sideburns. Its a cult.
Hi Maybe Gray. Yes, I’ve had a number of encounters with J for J types, most of whom indeed were not Jewish by any stretch of the imagination.
In Assemblies of God churches, there is often one guy that “has a heart for Israel.” He wears a prayer shawl and a yarmulke, and insists on saying Hebrew prayers at the front of the church. Once he realizes that the rest of the congregation won’t be converting to Messianic Judaism, he moves on. Somehow I always imagined that Jews for Jesus was mostly populated by this type of person instead of actual Jewish people.
Yael,
I attended a seminar for teachers sponsored by ADL ten years ago on the Holocaust, Catholicism and Judaism. A brilliant Catholic theologian spoke there and suggested that we should not be about converting the Jewish people because we need the presence of Judaism to allow us to understand who Jesus really was. His position was further clarified by a rabbi who spoke about the “Jewishness of Jesus” and put several stories of the gospel back into their proper religious and historical Judaic context and I understand them better for that.
I note this because of your point about these people witnessing to you not understanding their own sacred texts. Without Judaism in our own world, we have no hope of ever truly understanding it.
Blessings to you!
Hi amyrose,
Thanks for your comment. I took a class once where the teacher suggested J was the first Reform Jew; I think Reform Jews felt insulted.
I enjoy history, especially religious, and have read much relating to the beginning of the Common Era from a wide range of authors, religious and non-religious. The most interesting books I’ve ever read on this time period were the two volumes of “The Pharisees: The Sociological Background of Their Faith” by Louis Finkelstein. Fascinating people in a fascinating era of time. When I hear people say so-and-so is just like a Pharisee I have to laugh, yeah, they only wish…
Thanks for the blessing. I’ll take them where I get them!
Yael,
My first job put me in close contact with Jewish people for the first time in my life. I realized that most of what I had been told about Judaism was wrong. I have subsequently profited greatly from reading Jewish authors. Yesterday I was rwading a book by a well-known rabbi. What he wrote about prayer was amazing and certainly applicable to my spiritual life.
I find people like the young men in this video to be seriously misguided. I hope they have their eyes opened. Blessings.
Apathetic,
I’m glad you were able to meet some of us, learn the real deal with Judaism and find meaning for your life within its teachings. I think there is much of value that is non-sectarian. Too bad more people can’t get beyond their need to ‘share their faith’ to see real people with real lives that are doing just fine without that ‘faith’.
Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven (John 14:6). The Lord also commanded us to preach the gospel to *all* nations and that is what we shall continue to do.
Reform Judaism is simply the “Jewish” version of the theological modernism and apostasy that we find in the National Council of Churches. The Lord Jesus Christ has no connection to this. If your looking for ancient Reform Jews, I suggest you look up the Sadducees.
And by the way, the Pharisees were indeed as wicked as they are shown to be in the New Testament. I not surprised that you and Finkelstein would try to portray them in a positive light, but it is historical revisionism, Yael.
I for one have a very hard time feeling sorry for these guys. Yeah, they sort of got sandbagged a little, but they are (and have been I’m’ sure for years) going door to door sandbagging all the victims they can find, and it really is incredibly deceptive to use the Star of David in Christian proselytizing. Especially if you are trying to convert Jewish people.
I don’t like how the “pastor” (cult leader) sits there on the DVD all fat and proud, but sends these young people out to do the dirty work. No fair. Get out there yourself, fatty, and take the heat.
I don’t feel badly for them at all. Captain Obviously acted like he was too good to answer any questions, the one in the blue shirt babbled like and idiot, and the rest just stood there with sullen glares.
Those boys look terrified if you ask me. Except for Captain Obviously, he just doesn’t want to be challenged on what he is doing.
If this had been some of the guys I knew at HAC this would have turned into an ugly showdown street preaching style. I almost prefer them to be scared.
I’m not trying to defend these guys, but it can be quite intimidating to have a camera shoved in your face by someone with an opposing agenda. It can really catch you off guard and throw you off your game. As a former politician and current blogger, I’ve been on both sides of that fence…
I actually feel a bit bad for these guys. I think they probably honestly believe Jesus will reward them in heaven for passing out packets filled with God-knows-what (I call it that because they do not seem to know the contents). On the other hand, Jesus called his followers to be loving, and I did not see a lot of love being spread in that video, nor did I see it when a group from the same “college” handed me a tract and ran away before I could explain to them that I was actually a pastor and the evangelistic material could be of more used to someone not Christian.
These college students have a serious quota of doors to knock on each week in order to please the college administration. Unfortunately, that gives them a big incentive to “drop and run” instead of truly witnessing. One WCBC grad was told, when he asked why they were not recommending him for a job at another ministry, that he did not knock on enough doors. 🙁
I was told that I was not recommended for a place in the ministry because after church services I did not get in line to shake Pastor’s hand and tell him what a great job he was doing. I was told he did not think I liked him. 🙁
Wow. It really does not get more blatantly narcissistic than that.
I would be interested in hearing testimonies from more grads about this. What reasons did they give to explain why they would not recommend them for a ministry job?
My theory: They already have one of their “favorites” applying and do not want to give them any competition.
Cold hard fact: If you do not kiss the butt of their exalted leader, and kiss it well, your future in that “not-a-network” (cough,cough) is very limited.
🙄
I think your theory is really a fact. I was there long enough to know that you had to kiss up to the right people to get ahead. I still have many friends who graduated from WCBC. The dirty little secret is how many of them never make it into the ministry and how many of them get in the ministry and then drop out after a few years.
So here’s something I’ve been wondering. Why the “I won’t tell you with the video camera on”? Or “You’re not allowed to tape us”? Who says? What prevents that man from recording them? Is there some law I didn’t know about? Or is it like a lot of Mike Shrock’s facebook responses that I laugh at on http://bobjonesuniversityrepresents.blogspot.com/? “I’ll send it to you in a private message”…. WHY THE SECRECY?! Why can’t you just talk to people?! 👿
Reminded me of this http://bobjonesuniversityrepresents.blogspot.com/2011/06/representing-tina-anderson-case-contd.html immediately.
I do business with Orthodox Jews and have made it my policy to share my faith only out of the 5 Books of the Torah since that is all that has authority in their lives. I have learned much from my Jewish friends in the process and first rule is never use word Christian but rather follower of Yeshua which they understand with out all the negativity. I could go on about how God has met us in the process and I encourage others to think likewise.
Oh yeah, and we Jews have never heard of the Y guy, the favorite term of J for J types…Know much about Jews and Judaism do you?
Maybe you don’t like the idea of Jews accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour, but there is nothing you can do to stop it. Jews are being saved every day, Yael.
They don’t include these grad’s testimonies in their glossy marketing brochures and videos. I bet a significant fraction of WCBC’s grads have little use for their unaccredited diploma.
Confession time: I went on a “mission” trip to NYC in 1995. I was invited along with a street preacher who was a Ruckmanite. We met up with several other Ruckmanites in Brighton Beach. They were all born and bred New Yorkers and had started a Fundy church in one of their living rooms. Anyway, I’ll never forget us street preaching on the sidewalk to Jews as they walked by and spat and cursed. We were holding up Ruckman chalk drawings of people writhing in the flames of hell, telling these people who were walking from school and work that they would fry like sausage without Jesus. I am so ashamed of that crap. I’m really ashamed that pictures of the verbal assualt survived. I regret that my only trip to NYC lasted 2 weeks and included very very very little sight seeing. We went to Coney Island and assaulted the hell out of the tourists too. 😳
Quote: “One is left with the impression from their discomfort that they’re not really used to having to actually defend their beliefs in the face of opposition.”
Either that or they know what they are doing is questionable at best offensive at worst.
Jesus Christ commanded us to preach the Gospel to every person and every nation, and that’s what Christians are going to continue to do, regardless of what you think about it, Mark
Henry, what we saw in that video was NOT a good illustration of Christians presenting the gospel to Jews. It was not done well AT ALL, and was obvious the participants were very poorly trained. Extremely ineffective and not a good witness. Their witness basically boiled down to: “Hey, we can’t even discuss what we believe in an intelligent manner – Don’t you wanna be like us? Here, take the DVD.” 😳
Remember. Not so long ago a lot of us had that creepy clean-cut plastic-haired look.
Witnessing to Jews should be like witnessing to anyone else. First off, you shouldn’t go looking for Jews to witness to. You should witness to your friends. If you don’t have any friends to witness to you’re probably not much of a Christian. Make friends. If one happens to be a Jew, do what friends do and share your lives. And if a Jew doesn’t want to be your friend because you’re a Christian than they’re probably not much of a Jew.
probably part of craig hartmans shalom ministries, u should look it up its sick
OK, folks, it doesn’t matter if you’re out there promoting Jesus, a political candidate, life insurance, or anything else; you should at least be able to answer questions like “What are you doing, and why?” “What’s in those packets you are handing out?” without panicking. Those are not hard questions. Normally, you volunteer that information when you are “witnessing.” I have to agree that they were woefully ill-prepared (leaving aside the question of whether or not their “mission” was a good idea to begin with). So what if the guy had a video camera? How would that change what they would say?
Agreed. Sharing Jesus is more than handling out slick marketing material to targeted customers. You could do that via mail. One would expect these “missionaries” to have some ability to participate in reasoned discussions. Sadly, they were woefully ill prepared for a verbal confrontation. 😳