With convicted rapist Ernie Willis safely behind bars and Chuck Phelps having proven himself to be a liar by his statements under oath, one would think that the IFB world would have the grace to blush. Or at least one would hope that they would stop talking about the trial and bad publicity and wish for it all to be quickly forgotten. But evidently that is not the case.
Dr. Ed Nelson, pastor and representative of Baptist World Missions (which has Chuck Phelps on its advisory board) is an insider in the world of the IFB as evidenced by this glowing introduction that Chuck Phelps himself made for Ed at Maranatha Baptist Bible College back in 2007. Ed is obviously a made man. So apparently, Ed decided to return a favor at the FBFI Conference held on June 14th by making sure that everybody knows exactly what the FBFI thinks of Chuck.
“The only way you get publicity is to have somebody hate you, as brother Chuck Phelps has had, and they come up with evil reports [about you,] then you get in the papers. And by the way, thank God he [Chuck Phelps] stood right all the way through all of this and we ought to stand with him and encourage him, but I don’t suppose newspapers here in Indianapolis write a whole lot of articles about Crosspointe.”
(You can hear audio of these statements on sermonaudio.com, the remarks start about 21 minutes in)
He’s stood right through all of this? He stood right when he questioned the integrity of the victim? He stood right when he lied about her age? He stood right when he refused to apologize in any way for enabling her rapist and covering up the crime in front of the congregation? “Right” must have some different definition in the FBF.
I can almost hear the voice of Paul crying out “[Y]ou are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.” But they will not listen. They’ll simply defend their guy to the bitter end no matter what he has done or who he has hurt.
For more details on this you can check out the Chuckles Travels blog.
What, no comments? It can’t be!
No comments? I’m speechless. Not that I should be, because these actions aren’t surprising in the least. Somehow, I want to forward this on to the [thankfully few] people I know in real life who were complaining about ABC 20/20’s “biased” coverage of the IFB.
This is what these guys do. It’s the same thing that Dennis Corle is doing with Matt Jarrell. It’s what Tim Lee is doing with Ergun Caner. It’s what Jack Hyles did with AV Ballenger. They rewrite their own history. It’s a system of deception, and it works, frankly, because a lot of its followers would rather be deceived than live the truthful lives that the Gospel of Jesus Christ compels in its real followers (as opposed to the counterfeit followers).
Not sure how much Dr. Nelson is aware of these days . . . but it demonstrates the “knee-jerk” reaction to defend someone who is in the “non-network”.
To see “newspapers” referenced in this way is mildly amusing. Dr. Phelps probably wishes that this whole thing had played out in newspapers, no one would have known about it.
Yeah, I wish this was surprising, but it is not. These networked fellows certainly have each other’s back. 👿
You obviously have missed the forest for the trees. The “IFB” people are not “networked,” they just believe the Bible. There is no hierarchy among them (that is why some of them won’t even join the FBFI). My own church pulled out of the FBFI. As far as Mr. Phelps is concerned, he didn’t “cover up” anything. He reported this to the police, and they did nothing.
You show up late to the party and then say the same things that have already been disproved over and over again?
I find your approach both stunningly uncreative and vaguely disappointing.
Hello Fundie women, if it could happen to Tina Anderson, it could happen to your daughter. RUN!
My brother married a non-practicing Catholic. But when their children became teens, my sister-in-law starting forcing her kids to go to church “so they could learn morals”. But as soon the priest-child sex scandals broke, they quit making her kids go to church.
This is not showing up on the main page? Weird…
I don’t think you will see most of Phelps peers do anything but back him. Even his egregious behavior in Watertown was largely passed over as a “philosophical difference” the willingness of the board to paper it over in a way that made them look like buffoons who didn’t do their homework before hiring this “great man” is evidence to me of the power of the network, they knew better than to kill a made man. Don’t want to get on the wrong side of the fundy mafia.
Fear not; most of us speaking here are already on the wrong side of the Fundy Mafia. With their level of arrogance, which results from the number of people they can control and coerce into submission to their authority, they will never see their sin, admit they are wrong, or do anything to make things right. They just re-victimize the victims and continue the abuse. I will never trust the IFB again! Only Jesus Christ has my trust now.
When and how did he lie about her age?
What has he done wrong? I’m honestly asking.
He called the police. He called the child protection service agency, whatever it’s called.
I realize there is much angst TODAY about the fact that he suggested Tina live elsewhere while she was pregnant, but that was certainly a common enough situation when you had unwed mothers.
I assumed due to Tina’s statements that finding out she was pregnant made her feel like HER life was over, that she didn’t want to keep her baby.
On his blog he repeatedly claimed that Tina was 16 at the time of her rape. On the stand under oath he admitted that she “may have been 15.”
In other words, he was purposely giving out a story of uncertain veracity. That’s lying. To further demonstrate the point, all those claims of Tina being 16 have since been removed from his blog.
He also lied to his congregation when he told them that Tina’s “church discipline” was an unrelated matter to Ernie Willis and claimed that she was pregnant by consensual sex instead of (at the very least) statutory rape. Testimony under oath has revealed lies upon lies upon lies. Chuck Phelps is a liar.
Darrell,
That’s not true. He said she was 16 when she reported it. It’s in the “Specific Answers” documents on his website, and it has always said the same thing. It was a lame attempt to cloud things, apparently. But he did not say she was 16 when she was raped.
As far as testimony under oath, has the transcript been made public yet? If not, it would seem difficult to affirm that he lied under oath without knowing what he said. And I am not sure how we know what he said until the transcript is made public.
Phelps is pretty much an idiot on a lot of different levels, and it is hard to find any reason why the FBFI/BJU/etc. would not have at least asked him to step aside temporarily. But in the interest of truth, we should at least expect ourselves to tell it.
You say “lame attempt to cloud thing” and I say “he’s a liar.” He’s trying to deceive people which is the very definition of lying.
You’ll notice I didn’t say he lied under oath. I said that statements made under oath (by both himself and others) contradicted what was previously said.
Which “edition” of his website are you referring to? Phelps has changed the contents of that website numerous times. Which edition is Phelps on now? Edition 4, 5? No 6! As a matter of fact, have a recent example of this. Just last week Phelps took out references to a “on-going sexual relationship to a married man.” No worries though Chucky, we have it ALL. Phelps had enough sense to know it would put him in legal deep water if he perjured himself under oath. Phelps also knew the prosecutor and the Concord PD had all his “copious notes” for months and would know if he did. He doesn’t serve a treat for telling the truth on the stand, he deserves to be confronted with the fact he lied to numerous individuals, pastors, leaders and lay people, for over a year. He deserves to be held accountable for those lies he has on his website. The lies he keeps changing. Tina Anderson’s story is the one part of this that has remained consistent.
Excellent point. Tina Anderson’s statements have remained consistent over the years; Phelps and her other abusers are the ones who keep changing theirs.
Just to clarify, I believe that Phelps abused Tina Anderson emotionally and in terms of her civil rights. As far as I know, he did not abuse her physically.
Phelps loaded up jpg files of his various statements. As time passed, he removed some of these, including the post titled “What Really Happened” and the one that talked about Tina dating Willis. Since Tina testified under oath that she did go on dates with Willis, perhaps Phelps realized that statement was no longer needed?
I have copies of the JPG files of the statements that were removed with the exception of the post titled “What Really Happened.”
@ Darrell “On his blog he repeatedly claimed that Tina was 16 at the time of her rape. On the stand under oath he admitted that she “may have been 15.”
I have to disagree with you. I have read everything on that blog, and his constant statement was that it was reported to him when she was 16. And his comment was made via a PDF or JPG file. It wasn’t like a blog where he discussed things in a text format and/or changed the age.
I understand you have a righteous anger, or feel that you do. But complete honesty is the only way to combat what you perceive as evil.
If you go about trying to make him look worse by claiming things that are not true, you are only going to help him.
Again, what his blog says keeps changing. Go back to his early statements about it.
The substance of what was said is not being “changed.” Certain complete posts were removed.
I have copies of them as they were posted in jpg format. Their substance was not changed. They still say the same thing.
Don’t argue with Darrell over this issue. He gets his extra-small panties in a bunch over things like this, even though he has never met the individuals and has no dog in the fight. The diminutive Darrell feels it is God’s call on his life to run down and degrade individuals he doesn’t agree with.
I’m glad that the rapist is in jail and I’m sorry that some of you feel that Phelps was trying to hide things. In the grand scheme of things, does it really matter?
My “extra-small panties”?
Dude, if you’re in love with me it’s ok to come out and admit it. I mean, I’m totally straight and all but I’d at least like to see you be honest instead of carrying on with this odd style of flirting.
It’s ok, man. There are more fish in the sea. Someday you’ll find some other nice guy and you’ll get over me. ((hugs))
Dude, your homophobic comments are completely uncalled for. In case you are too stupid to figure it out, I was making fun of how short you are. Maybe I should have focused on the size of your head.
You are always saying that I need to get over myself, but I think the same could be said for you. I don’t know why you are so hung up on some girl you have never met who got raped. I don’t see you showing the same concern for all of the other women of the world who got raped. The only thing that I can figure out is that you are using this case to draw attention to your blog and make money off of her plight. That, my friend, is disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Homophobic? Not at all!
I just want to help you be honest about what the real issue is here. You’ve got a thing for me and you just don’t know any other way to say you care than to come accuse me of exploiting rape victims for money.
I get it. I’m here for you man, in a…you know…totally platonic way. ((more hugs))
“Size of your head”? Seriously, do you read this shit before you post it?
@Jonathan. “I don’t know why you are so hung up on some girl you never met who got raped.”.
THIS statement is exactly why Darrell and so many others are SO HUNG UP on some girl we’ve never met who got raped!!!!!
Jesus was so “so hung up” literally FOR a girl who was raped and you should be too.
Do you have daughters?? 😈
Jon Boy says: “In case you are too stupid to figure it out, I was making fun of how short you are.”
I call B.s.
You went there first. You said his panties were little. You got verbally punched in the nose. It’s what you get for being a jackass and a bully. Take it like a man.
In the grand scheme of things does it really matter?!!?!! well, ask yourself if your pastor did not accurately, seriously or appropriately handle your own daughter’s abuse, if it the grand scheme it really mattered. i mean after all, she might only have to wait many years to have her abuser brought to justice. eh. nahh…. doesn’t matter at all.
Jonathan,
Methinks you doth protetht too much. If fundies were known for robbing banks or tipping over armored cars, then I’ll wager that we’d be chatting about that. Since what seems to come out is sexual deviance, then I guess we’ll work with what we get.
BTW – go look up “homophobic” in a dictionary; it don’t mean what you appear to think it means.
“What has he done wrong? I’m honestly asking.”
Seriously? Phelps had evidence that seemed (at least to the jury) fairly condemning of Willis and he (and his attorney) tried to withhold that evidence. Fortunately the judge saw straight through that idiocy. As reported by the witnesses of the trial, Phelps from day one has seemed much more concerned with protecting himself and Willis than Tina. “What has he done wrong?” He coverd for and helped hide the rape of a 15 year old girl both when it was originally reported to him and when it finally came to trial. Is that not enough? 🙄
I have no doubt that the only thing preventing the prosecution from bringing him to trial is the statute of limitations. He (and anyone who defends his wrong actions) should be ashamed.
Paul, my first reply to you is under the post to Incurably Inane. My apologies.
“He coverd for and helped hide the rape of a 15 year old girl both when it was originally reported to him and when it finally came to trial.”
He called the police, twice. He even called them to tell them that Tina was refusing to call police and told them that they would have to contact the victim. He called DYCS. He filled out their report. He encouraged Christine Leaf to call the police. (She finally did.) He encouraged Tina herself to call the police. She refused and was verbally abusive to her mother when her mother tried to get her to report what happened. Phelps helped her obtain medical care for the pregnancy, the obvious result of the rape.
No cover up there.
And how he could possible be accused of covering up a rape at a trial is a big mystery, since that is what the trial was about.
Now, that having been said, I don’t think he handled things as good as they could have been handled. To me, when you have a pregnant but sometimes lying teenager and a 38 year old man who is possibly the perp and the police DON’T do anything? You keep calling social services or juvi hall until you get that teen under the control of the state offices that can serve her. Her home has failed her, she is not properly supervised, as shown by her inviting Willis over to her house and inviting him in. As a pastor, the situation has gone past what you are qualified to handle. It’s a tar baby of the highest order.
Then you park yourself right down at police headquarters until somebody comes and picks up the perp. Then let the criminal justice system do what it will.
No, Ken, you are NOT honestly asking. These same questions have been answered on your blog. You are not listening.
I haven’t had much time to peruse the comments at the blog, but I thank you for bringing that to my attention and I will read them later this evening.
@Ken
What has he done wrong honestly? Well Ken, I personally feel that it is wrong for ANY adult to require a teenager to apologize to her church for an adult, married, old man having sex with her and knocking her up.
Does that sound like he did something right Ken?
@amy hiser “Well Ken, I personally feel that it is wrong for ANY adult to require a teenager to apologize to her church for an adult, married, old man having sex with her and knocking her up.”
I get the impression that Phelps did believe she was somewhat complicit because after she was raped the first time she did not tell anyone and she continued to seek the company of Ernie Willis, including going out with Willis on her 16th birthday.
umm…she was a child, he was an adult. going with him, being with him does not make her complicit!! Could indicate, fear of him if she doesn’t comply, brainwashed, etc. geez.
a victim returning to the abuser…do you know anything about abuse? ever see an abused dog walk right back up to the ass that kicks him and lick his hand???
According to her Anderson’s testimony she was 16 when she continued to go on dates with Willis.
“…she was 16 when she continued to go on dates with Willis.”
Yeah, that sounds about right. You rape a child and then magically when she turns 16 it is no longer rape but a date.
Underage girl: What do you want to do tonight on our date?
Rapist: I thought I’d take you out back behind the shed and force myself upon you again since we had so much fun last time.
And the propaganda machine rumbles on. Sadly, my fundy family and I (ex-fundy) know Ed Nelson personally. My parents love the guy. I try to keep the mindset that the ‘fundy mafia’ (great term!) are really okay people who are sorely misinformed. But even with that stance, I have trouble respecting him after those statements.
“Phelps had evidence that seemed (at least to the jury) fairly condemning of Willis and he (and his attorney) tried to withhold that evidence.”
To be completely HONEST, you would have to admit that Phelps didn’t know anything about that evidence being presented. He didn’t “have it.” Brian Fuller found it and gave it to authorities. It was being presented at court without Phelps prior knowledge.
However, if you went even further into pure honesty, you’d admit that the fact that Phelps stating Willis was the aggressor has been in the public record of this case for several years, starting with Tina’s statement.
I remember growing up hearing Ed Nelson’s name spoken in reverential tones. This is shameful. I hope many people in Fundyland wake up after hearing this. I’m afraid they won’t.
ah, good old Ed Nelson. Yes, this would be my pastor before the “even better” Lester Heinze graced South Sheridan with his filth. Oh yes, Ed Nelson, who still allowed my sperm donor to preach at his church after me and my sister publicly stated the abuse we suffered. Oh yes, he’s heaped into the pile of shit with the rest of the sicko’s. Defending Phelps??….No shock there. For the record, I’m thrilled the Notwork keeps affirming publicly their notworkishness. It always helps when trying to establish how notnetworkish they are for the media who inquire.
Claiming there’s no such thing as a network is another way the Fundy Mafia resembles the other Mafia.
Ask any Capo or Don, and they’ll say, “There’s no such thing as the Mafia.”
Then he fled Colorado and came to Tucson to have a fresh crop of victims
Not surprised, but kind of glad. Nelson has shown his true stripes (already obvious, but still…), and only the willfully ignorant will continue to be taken in by these deceivers.
I don’t see an American or Israeli flag in the background. Fundie god is angry.
This made me chuckle…
“I don’t see an American or Israeli flag in the background. Fundie god is angry.”
I’m not sure I understand the subtext, unless you are talking about the odd almost worship of patriotism on the 4th of July in IFB churches. I would say support of Israel is one of the good things going in SOME IFB churches. There are too many churches out there that profess to be Christian that have nothing but disdain for Israel.
“profess to be Christian that have nothing but disdain for Israel.”
Do you mean like the Palestinian Christians who live in the West Bank? When your people are the target of systematic genocide, then disdain is a pretty normal emotion.
And you don’t have to be an IFB to love the Jewish people and know that God has not cast them aside and is not through with them as a nation.
Tim Anderson responds to Ed Nelson’s support of Chuck Phelps on June 14, 2011 at the FBFI Conference
http://bit.ly/mOXn97
The questions Laurie Moody, Tina Anderson and Jocelyn Zichterman won’t answer.
http://ksblogs4u.blogspot.com/2011/06/questions-laurie-moody-tina-anderson.html
Even your blog is a troll
Ummm… yes, captain_solo. I took quite a bit of time to answer “Ken Smith’s” questions on Bixby’s blog. He/she consistently deflected reasonable questions, ignored the answers I gave, and then created his/her own version of the facts. Others have made similar attempts and gotten the same results. ::shrug:: I have a great life and better ways to spend my time than read or respond to his/her yipping. 😀
Ms. Moody, I have not been back to that blog in quite a while. My apologies if I missed something you answered.
Would you like to take this opportunity to answer why you won’t answer any question about the Tina Anderson Foundation and how much money changed hands between them and Tim and Tina Anderson?
There are no questions there, Ken, and haven’t been for weeks. Do you just not have any questions for them personally and just prefer to troll around the internet? Or do you just want to pretend there are questions they aren’t answering. It seems to me you should be answering questions about why you vehemently insist on defending a corrupt pastor and an admitted rapist.
Hello, AmazedbyGrace. I’d like to clarify something for you: I don’t defend Willis. Obviously a slime ball.
Secondly, I’m not really a Chuck Phelps fan either. He did wrong by not staying on the police to come and arrest Willis. He did wrong by “allowing” Willis to ask for forgiveness for adultery when Phelps knew it was statutory rape. He did wrong by making Tina come before the congregation. So to my mind, he’s got every bit of problems he has now coming to him.
But that doesn’t mean lies have to be told about the rest of it. There is enough wrong here without making up lies.
Like the way they lied about Tina getting fired. Yeah, that all sounded good on TV but it wasn’t true.
“The only way you get publicity is to have somebody hate you …”
What a disingenuous statement. Everybody knows that there are many, many different reasons people get publicity. Just to choose two opposite examples, you can launch a billion-dollar program to wipe out malaria (as Bill and Melinda Gates did), or you can commit a serious crime (as too many people to list have done). Neither depends on anyone hating you in order to attract attention.
SFL: Making seriously stupid statements and expecting people to take you seriously.
I just think the whole thing shows a lack of integrity on Phelps’ part. He was clearly focused on doing the “right thing” and making the situation go away as quickly as he could. Had he been truly interested in doing the right thing, he would have driven Willis to the police station instead of having him confess before the congregation. Hind sight is 20/20, but has Phelps ever admitted his actions were inadequate and less than transparent?
I have heard that he has said to friends that he would do some things different. But he has never publicly done anything other than attack the character of the victim and show grief over the plight of the perpetrator.
Chuck Phelps said “Today I would not allow such personal needs of a teenager to be presented to a congregation in an open forum.”
http://www.drchuckphelps.com/specific-answers-to-some-difficult-questions.html
If he understands this now, why doesn’t he go and humbly apologize to Tina for what he did back then? Why don’t you go to him, Ken, and strongly suggest he do this?
(And before you throw this back in my face, I have already emailed his current church, calling on him to do just that.)
I don’t know Phelps and I’m not an IFB any longer, so I can’t see myself as one who is qualified to tell him to apologize to her.
The fact that Tina lied to Phelps as the events were ongoing are probably reason enough to Phelps that he doesn’t apologize to her. And the fact that Tina lied about Phelps wife.
Also, her group’s (“Foundation”) stated intention to get money is probably another reason you’ll never see Phelps apologize to Tina Anderson.
I don’t know him either. Didn’t stop me.
What lies are you referring to? And how do YOU know she lied about his wife? Just because Phelps said so under oath? As I recall, what he said was that his wife would never do such a thing. Not that she didn’t do it. There’s a difference. One is a statement of opinion. The other, a statement of fact.
It’s not “her” foundation. She didn’t start it. She is not seeking money. Your grudge against Jocelyn is showing, sir.
And besides, he’s a Christian and an elder in the biblical sense. He is held to a higher standard. If he did wrong – and his change of opinion on the matter indicates he realizes he did – he still should seek her forgiveness for making her stand up in front of that church and be humiliated.
So, Ken, basically you are saying that Chuck Phelps is stiff-necked and hard hearted and refuses to apologize. Nice.
And I don’t really believe for a second you’ve left the IFB world. In fact, I’m dead certain you haven’t. You are just saying that to lend some perception of credibility to your disgusting revictimization of Tina.
You’d be wrong about that sister.
The glory departed FBFI so long ago Ichabod’s grandkids are shaking their heads. If there were any glory to depart in the first place…
And once again, fundies, in their unrepentent arrogance, prove “Fundy Rule #70” to be so true….
http://www.stufffundieslike.com/rules/archives/122
Two of the unwritten but much practiced “fundamentals” which Fundies strongly believe in is burying their known problems and sticking their heads in the sand to avoid seeing any unknown problems.
@Tikatu: I believe that Tina lied about Phelps wife. It was reported (but not widely) that Willis’ wife is the one who sarcastically said to Tina “Did you enjoy it?” Tina also had to take an AIDS test and give the results to Willis’ wife.
Those two things add up and make sense, the betrayed wife saying those things, not a pastor’s wife who showed nothing but care and concern for Tina.
It is Tina’s foundation in the sense that she willingly accepted what they were giving her and allowed the use of her name so the money seeking group could get more publicity.
Personally, I don’t know Jocelyn Zitcherman and I certainly have no grudge against her. I believe she’s wrong and messed up in a whole lot of areas but she has every right to speak.
As an aside, I believe her story of abuse by her father and I believe she was wronged. When you watch that 20/20 special, every word the woman said rings true. Not so much with Tina Anderson. Tina hedges and hesitates so much while she speaks and claims not to remember when it gets to details about saying no, a 2 year old could drive a truck through the holes in her story.
Not so with Jocelyn Zitcherman. She’s obviously been very abused, and it is a chilling indictment against the IFB leaders she told about her abuse.
That having been said, being a victim doesn’t give Zitcherman the right to abuse others as she has on her board. She screams and harasses people and tried to ruin the reputation of anyone who dared disagree with her. And I’m talking about people who are on her side in all this.
In the weeks after the Anderson trial when Zitcherman’s support should have been growing, her personal and hateful attacks severely reduced her ranks of followers.
And that’s a shame.
As to his wife’s statements, Phelps testified in court about a conversation that he wasn’t present for. He only knows what his wife says she said to Tina. He wasn’t there and evidently he believes his wife’s denials. Tina was and her story therefore has more weight to me.
I’m honestly surprised that the prosecution didn’t object to his statement as hearsay.
Not sure if you understand how abuse advocacy works. People who advocate for survivors don’t “follow” personalities. That sounds like an independent fundamental Baptist church, though. 😆 Maybe you’re not as far from the tree as you think.
Who are you really, Ken? Want to give your real name, real church? People don’t spout this kind of nonsense without a reason. If you’ve got nothing to hide, put up a real picture and stand by your words.
Darrell, I’d appreciate it if you pulled the plug on “Ken Smith.” He’s been spreading shit for weeks and it’s just getting more vile. 😕
I’m telling the truth. And I’m not the only one who saw what happened when JZ started attacking people.
That’s my point. You folks don’t need to trade one abusive group for another. And your threats about censoring me just make it obvious what you don’t want people to know.
😆 😆 😆
Ken, it does make sense to me that Linda Phelps would ask Tina if she enjoyed it. That was the teaching at the school she graduated from. Walter Fremont taught that the first thing a victim of this type of crime must do is to repent of their part of the enjoyment of it. I heard this same teaching in a pastor’s wives class taught by Beneth Jones and Bobbi Yearick at around the same time the Phelpses were attending BJU. This totally lines up for me and becomes completely believable given the context that I know how these people were taught—however wrongly and ill-advised it proved to be. I’m not even going to go into how wrong it is–just know that it would appear to them to be a perfectly logical and necessary question to ask given their teaching.
Who are you and why do you think Tina lied? Why do you not give Tina “every right to speak” like you do Jocelyn? Where is the “money” coming from here? That’s a pretty low accusation to sling at someone that they are in it for the money. What money? Seems to me they’ve lost a whole lot of money, time, and personal well being in all of this. It doesn’t even make sense for you to make that accusation and not back it up–Something is not right here, Ken……
Are you related to Ernie Willis or Chuck Phelps?
I believe that Tina lied about certain things in her televised interview. It’s just my opinion, but it’s based on years of interviewing people and knowing the physical appearance of someone who is lying, when they lie.
And I’ve never said she doesn’t have a right to speak out, she sure does. That doesn’t mean I have to believe every word she says.
And you tell me where the money is coming from and where it’s going. Because that is the question that Laurie Moody won’t allow to be posted at her blog.
Now, all that having been said, it’s obvious Tina was statutorily raped. But after those things happened, she went on dates with Willis. She went behind her mother’s back to try and stay in touch with him. She refused to call the police on him.
All those things are true, and for a 16 year old to act that way when she knows better makes it hard for people to really trust her when her story starts changing up.
I feel sorry for her, the poor kids had a horrible mother and no parental supervision.
So, you just want to visit places like this and tell people that IN YOUR OPINION you think Tina lied. It’s somehow just really ticked you off that you think TINA lied. It doesn’t bother you quite so much that Ernie Willis lied; that Chuck Phelps lied; and that Christine Leaf lied. That every adult or authority figure in her life failed her. You just want to talk about the victim–Tina? You want to continue to revictimize her? This obsession of yours defies all logic. If you truly feel sorry for Tina, then stop what you are doing. Send her some money and pray for her.
Most people believe Tina was the most credible witness and that her television interview was genuine and believable. I question your professional knowledge and am concerned for the wake of devastation you may have left throughout your entire career if you can’t do any better than this.
“I question your professional knowledge and am concerned for the wake of devastation you may have left throughout your entire career if you can’t do any better than this.”
Sister, let me tell you one thing, I’ve had the sad duty of dealing with more rape victims than you’ll ever know. And I’ve never seen even ONE rape victim who was willing to go out on a date with her rapist.
I’ve never known or even heard of a violently raped women that sought out the company of her rapist and let him in her house when he came to call.
Violently raped women leave in a dreadful fear of the man who harmed them. They don’t go out to dinner at nice restaurants to celebrate their 16th birthday with them.
Now, as far as “ticking” me off, your wrong about that missy. I feel sorry for Ms. Anderson.
I don’t feel one bit sorry for Chuck Phelps. Or Ernie Willis.
But when I see whole groups of people denigrated and threatened for their beliefs I’m going to speak up when I see chinks in the accusers stories.
Maybe you aren’t old enough to remember Waco, but I’ll never forget watching all those people being burned alive because someone decided they were a cult.
It’s unfortunate that Tina herself declined to call the police after Willis raped her. It’s more unfortunate still that she didn’t call the police after he raped her the second time. It’s unfortunate that she went on dates with him after she turned 16.
But all that doesn’t add up to every IFB in this country being in a cult.
So…….let me see if I get this right, Ken. You don’t really care about Tina–you feel sorry for her, but obviously don’t care about her. You don’t care about Chuck, Ernie, Christine or anyone else for that matter probably. Your sole purpose in asserting that Tina lied is so that you can rescue the perception of the IFBs? Oh, wait. You left them 10 years ago…or however long ago you said. Why the heck do you care about them?
People are NOT being denigrated for their faith by the way. Faith in God is always applauded, respected, encouraged, and protected in our country. What is not appreciated is corporate worship that is dishonest and morally corrupt. A system with no checks and balances and where one man calls the shots and is accountable to no one in his own little fiefdom. A system that encourages sexual predators because money trumps truth; appearance of wholeness trumps confrontation; forgiveness trumps justice and adults trump children and pastors trump everyone else. It’s the system, not faith that is the problem.
I have three daughters. All of them were sexually abused in the context of Independent Fundamental Baptists. Today the perpetrator of my oldest daughter is preaching in a Baptist church. The perpetrator of my other two daughters is a missionary in a Hispanic speaking country. It’s not okay and something needs to be changed. I am pretty passionate about it. I saw the dynamics of my young teenagers and their abuse. Things didn’t always add up about their reaction. My oldest daughter’s abuser was her youth director. Yes, she continued to go on youth activities. She can’t even explain it. She didn’t tell us about it at the time. She can’t explain that either. Neither can I explain to you why I didn’t leave Vespers when I was being molested by the stranger beside me. I never even spoke about it until I was in my 40s. No, I can’t explain it all to you except that I had already received all the messages that women were always to blame. I knew I would have to talk to teenaged ushers and a hardhearted dean of women, and I knew I stood no chance. And you couldn’t understand it all even if I could explain it. And yes, I do continue to question your professionalism.
I am old enough to remember Waco. Much more went on besides “someone decided they were a cult.” They refused to obey the laws of the land and refused to comply with orders, and they paid dearly for it. It was truly a tragedy. But it wasn’t because of their faith, it was because of their disobedience.
Since you have no dog in this race, just give it a rest. Faith in God is fine in this country. Tina Anderson’s actions as a young teenager have not affected people’s right to whatever faith and belief they want. Corruption anywhere should be exposed and especially in the church. You should be glad for that. The message to rapists who were shielded in the church should be that eventually you will be found out.
Mr. Smith, please don’t post anymore. Leave Tina alone. You really aren’t making any sense.
Oh Amazed By Grace I just want to give you a hug!!! Thank you so much for writing!!
Truth. To everything.
And, Ken Smith, it’s not fair to compare Tina’s situation with a violent stranger rape. I feel certain that this was one of those situations where she was groomed for awhile and her mind messed with–all the things a predatory sexual abuser does. So when it does happen it’s one of the most confusing things that could ever happen to a person. Surely you do know all about that. It doesn’t lessen the horror and reality of it all, it actually heightens it. This was even worse of a crime than a violent rape. Yes, I continue to question your professionalism, the fact that you say you were an investigator, and I continue to be concerned about the devastation in human lives you have caused.
@AmazedByGrace “I continue to be concerned about the devastation in human lives you have caused.”
I’m gonna take your flaky comment with a grain of salt, coming as it did from a woman who did such a bad job as a mother that all THREE of her daughters ended up getting molested in some fashion.
The difference of opinion I have about what happened to Tina are based on what she testified to under oath, that the man VIOLENTLY raped her, with no warning. He VIOLENTLY forced himself upon her and violently her a second time after she invited him over while her mother was at work.
My point is that women who are VIOLENTLY and FORCEFULLY raped do not seek out the company of the criminal and go on dates with him. But Tina also testifies under oath that she did stay in contact with him and go on a date with him AFTER those events.
You say it’s not far to compare Tina’s situation to a violent rape, but that’s what Tina says happened. Twice. So your argument about that is with her, not me.
From what I’ve seen over the years, Tina’s case seems to fall more in line with what you’ve described, that she was groomed and taken advantage of due to her naivety. That would explain why she continued to contact him, spend time with him, go out to dinner with him, because she’s been fooled and taken advantage of and statutorily raped.
That’s just my opinion based on testimony that was given, her saying she was violently and forcefully raped and then comparing that to her testimony of staying in contact with him and going out driving with him and going to dinner with him, all after to violent and forced rapes occurred.
All that having been said, she was a victim, and she was raped and she was wronged. But really, I wish she’d see herself as a survivor instead.
Everything that was designed by the devil to destroy and rip from that girl, God gave back in spades.
Willis took advantage of a very weak girl, with no parental supervision.
God took her it seems like, almost on wings of eagles to a place where should could be safe and loved and have for the first time in her life, a proper Christian family to live in. And it’s obvious that the Lord cared so much about Tina and looking into her future, he placed her in a home where she could see real christian manhood modeled, a home where she could be loved by a Christian foster mother and be taught by a role model that I’m sure she rises up and calls blessed today when she thinks of the kind love and compassion she saw modeled in the Landry home.
Ernie Willis might have meant it for evil. Chuck Phelps might have just wanted the embarrassment to go away for a while, but the Lord called Tina his beloved and he prepared a place for her where she could be grown into the kind of young lady God saw in her all along. The Lord meant it for good.
Genesis 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
“I’m gonna take your flaky comment with a grain of salt, coming as it did from a woman who did such a bad job as a mother that all THREE of her daughters ended up getting molested in some fashion.”
This is one of the coldest and meanest things I’ve seen anyone say on this blog.
I appreciate what you said about how God brought good out of evil in Tina’s life. I appreciate that you’ve acknowledged the abuse that Jocelyn experienced. But you allowed something AmazedbyGrace said about you to make you respond
in a very cruel way.
People TRUST youth pastors. The fact that AmazedbyGrace’s daughters were abused by people in the church doesn’t make her a bad mother and you’re saying so is unChristian in every way.
I really don’t want to get in a flame war, but your comment to her is so shockingly cruel that I wish I could crawl through the computer and wrap my arms around her and hug her because I’m sure she beats herself up enough over what happened to her daughters.
I wasn’t trying to be cruel. Just trying to illuminate that there is sometimes bad judgement on a parents part.
Folks, you can’t trust your kids with anyone. No one. Not a preacher, not a SS teacher, not a school teacher, no one.
That’s the reality of this world we live in.
Glad this jerk is gone- that’s just vile.
“I’m gonna take your flaky comment with a grain of salt, coming as it did from a woman who did such a bad job as a mother that all THREE of her daughters ended up getting molested in some fashion.”
Whatever, Ken. I’ll take your comment with a grain of salt too because you have no idea what the situations were and you’re obviously someone I wouldn’t waste the details on. Suffice it to say it had nothing to do with my mothering skills and everything to do with a church system that fosters and protects abusers of children–exactly what we’re talking about here. Exactly what happened to Tina. It’s condoned by the pastors and never called out from church to church. They shuffle bad pastors and youth pastors around just like they did Tina while claiming there’s no network. This is the problem of the “independent fundamental baptist churches.” They are independent and autonomous and because of that wickedness and debauchery can reign and flourish unchecked. There may be some good ones, I don’t know–I’ve heard by testimony on the board that there may be. The ones I have been associated with (and I live in a city with a whole lot of them) eventually display signs of huge problems because as the “pastor king” gets older he gets crankier (like maybe you have) and more dictatorial and authoritative. Criticisms and suggestions are not accepted. Redress is nonexistent because there is no hierarchy or governing organization beyond the “pastor king.”
But surely you know all this. You said you had left the IFB some number of years ago. You must have seen some problems if you really did leave. This whole situation is about the churches and bad pastors who collude and circle the wagons, not about any of the details of the situation that happened. The “chinks” you think you’ve found in testimonies really don’t affect the whole underlying problem. It still remains as it is–a wicked and corrupt model that needs to change. If it takes the government of the United States and more 20/20 expose’s to effect change, I’m okay with that.
As for you? You’re a troubled person. I hope you find peace and comfort somewhere. Talk to a counselor. Pray for the IFB churches and their myopic pastors. Send the Anderson family a monetary contribution with your apologies for causing them additional pain and suffering. Hug a grandchild, don’t kick the dog. Be thankful for all the good things that you do have in life. This reply comes with a blessing and prayer for you.
“This is the problem of the “independent fundamental baptist churches.” They are independent and autonomous and because of that wickedness and debauchery can reign and flourish unchecked.”
Sister, it happens everywhere.
The Southern Baptist’s have everything already in place where they COULD track those kids of crimes which flourish in SBC circles and theyy downright refuse to take the action they very easily could to protect people. They’ve spent so much money on trying to deflect blame for what they’ve allowed to happen it could have supported missionaries for many years.
The IFB don’t even have any kind of structure in place to do that kind of reporting. But I agree that there is numerous IFB churches that shuffle those kinds of perverts around and there’s way too many who’ve tried to cover up stuff that should have been reported to the police.
I’m glad and happy for every report that’s made and for every church that does the right thing. I hate every one of them that hasn’t and doesn’t.
There’s a lady named Christa Brown who’s done an wonder job with exposing Southern Baptist sex crimes.
I’ll just say this in closing and I won’t bother you folks no more: Don’t put your kids in Sunday School. That’s where most predators get unfettered access to your kids. Keep your kids with you. There ain’t nobody that can be trusted. I don’t care how long you’ve known them. Taking a little child out of the bosum of the family just gives any pervert out there an opening to get to them.
They won’t miss out on a thing by skipping that hour.
Ken,
Where did Tina ever claim ‘violently’ raped her? You claim to be retired law enforcement and don’t understand that forcible rape is sexual penetration against another person will whether violent or not? You claim to be retired law enforcement, have you forgotten who brings the actual charges? Not the victim, but prosecutors after LEO’s investigation. Willis was found guilty by a unanimous decision by a jury of his peers after he [Willis], Phelps, Christine Leaf, Tina and many others testified in this trial. Willis’ testimony did not help his case, imo. Phelps testimony certainly didn’t help Willis. Ken you go on and on and on about what you call Tina’s lies but nothing about Phelps lies, nothing about Willis deceiving his now ex-wife. Tim Anderson requested you stop calling his wife a liar, but here you are again, doing just that.
I might not have been clear on this, although I thought I was. I believe the man is stone cold guilty.
Just a thought. When a person is raised in an abusive home (I think I read that Tina was abused by her stepfather, and if what I’ve read about her mother is true, by her mother as well) it is not uncommon for that person to see abuse as “normal.” Abused people tend to think that it is their fault that more abuse has been incurred, and that they deserve the abuse. They will try to appease and please the abuser. Abuse is often the fruit of many generations of abuse.
Susan…that’s it exactly. I did not grow up in an abusive home, but did endure unwanted advances from peers in my teens and was also sexually assaulted in college. After that assault, as a coping mechanism I suppose, I resigned myself to the fact that my body was up for grabs and there was nothing I could do about it. Even when a professor started touching me and making it clear that he wanted a physical relationship with me, I felt like there was nothing I could do (and eventually came to have feelings for him despite his abuse of his position of authority…it was truly a twisted confusing time that to this day I don’t understand).
So sorry you experienced that abuse. It had to have been confusing and overwhelming.
“Ken” wins. I said I wouldn’t answer him but I did. Oh well. I posted it here: http://www.stufffundieslike.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=1685&pid=29780#pid29780
I see he is abusing other survivors here just like he is elsewhere. What a coward!
The scary part about Dr Phelps is that there are many people who simply do not like him. Like a board member from the college he was president of for a short time. Or the college students that heard him speak during chapel. But of course, he gets to be popular. And he will be coming to a men’s retreat this fall to a church near you. Hope hubby has to travel or is deathly ill so he won’t “get to” attend!