Music

Morality In Musical Styles

209 Comments

Honestly, I think this presentation is mostly a way for the speaker to show off his own ability to play a bunch of different instruments.

Weirdest of all, this looks like it may have been a presentation at a Valentines gathering of some kind.

209 thoughts on “Morality In Musical Styles”

    1. Talk about majoring on the minors (pun intended?).

      The boogie-woogie? Really? I know this is an older clip but I have never heard that used unless it is followed by “bugle boy company b”.

      1. I noticed that actually he liked some minor chording while he was singing or playing. I was always told that is a sure nuff sign that it had evil undertones…

    1. Either it’s at a Valentines gathering, or they just hadn’t taken down the decorations yet (common at my exIFB church). 😳

      1. I can make the theme fit: “If you like “ungodly” music, your HEART isn’t filled with the LOVE of God.” All they need are a few treble clef signs scattered among the hearts and they’d have it made.

  3. This is a pet peeve. I cannot stand people claiming their personal opinion or preference is the only godly music out there. And then they hawk their latest CD. Seriously. Have you ever heard a sermon on music where the person did not try to sell you something? Create a market and then fill the market with your own music.

    1. Hmmm, never looked at the whole “godly” music rant from that angle. Good point. Now that you mention it, I have heard sermons on music that end with the pastor oh so casually mentioning that the church bookstore has a sale on music this week 🙄 .

    2. I always hated when guest speakers came with a whole table full of CD’s. And of course you got the guilt trip from the pastor to buy one.

  4. Ahhhhhh yes!!! If I like music that you don’t approve of I’m not saved. Now climb back into your box and go away.

    1. I hear you on the music front. I just threw that crap away and I listen to what I want to. I am still saved and I still love the Lord. 😉

  5. He’s probably of good ol’ Frank Garlock. Those in my ex-fundy church willing to believe Frank Garlock – like my father – honestly believe that if any sort of downbeat falls on 2 and 4, it’s totally of the devil. Interestingly enough, a lot of those same people listened to country music.

    Hypocrisy, hypocrisy, hypocrisy.

    I can’t remember the exact words used on the front of that Heritage whatever quartet CD, but it shouldn’t say “Good Old Country Singin'” – it should say, “The Only Music You’re Allowed to Listen To.”

    It took me a VERY long time to get Frank Garlock out of my head, as well as debrief from other strange fundy tradition/manipulation.

    1. They’ll use some “style” of music to promote their CDs … like you even have a choice – it’s “saved” music or “unsaved” music.

      Also, big in the traveling evangelism teams, like Steve Pettit or Will Galkin, is celtic music using the penny whistle. I’m surprised there isn’t a sub-class of the “good house-wifery” class offered at Bob Jones on the penny whistle.

      1. I love and listen to my local CCM station daily, but I still appreciate the more conservative music of my youth. In fact, I still listen to the Pettit’s every once in a while, and am SO jealous of their mad penny-whistle skillz. I’ve noticed the Pettits adapting a lot of toned-down Getty music into their repertoire as of late….the slippery-slope of compromise awaits…

        1. I like the celtic music, and the flute celtic sheet music that the Pettit team has produced. I play Higher Ground from the Celtic book on my piccolo at my current church (not a fundy church), and it always goes over well.

          Of course, the point in all this is that this isn’t the only music that you can play that praises the Lord. You can play many styles.

      2. But I think pettit eventually overstepped his freedom with that style of music. I remember when I was at BJU in 06 he came out with a new CD that the campus store couldn’t sell for a bit. And I remember many people thinking he may have overstepped. A lot of music majors used to refer to his CD’s as the BJU CCM because it really was. It was a contemporary style that sounded nothing like a hymn. It was as close to CCM as you could get without getting into trouble :-).

        Personally I couldn’t stand the music.

        1. You’re correct about the Pettit flap. I was on the music committee when we (or rather they: I didn’t care either way, but I wasn’t about to voice dissent) black listed that CD. I know that someone talked to Pettit about it, but I don’t know what ever happened. I left BJU in May 2006, so I wasn’t in on the aftermath. So, so silly and stupid though.

  7. Believing that God cannot redeem any music style starts in 3 . . . 2 . . . 1 . . .

  8. So far watched to 3:19 – “Your spirit would resist that [sound] IF YOU’RE SAVED.” Nothing like making immediate assumptions about someone else’s standing before God. Sorta sounds like judging to me.

    1. That really got under my skin, too! Sorry, buddy, but you don’t get to judge whether or not I’m saved, and claiming that my musical preferences are an indicator is ridiculous and unbiblical.

  9. I noticed that so far the acceptable music is gentle and quiet: the hymn on the sax as well as “Calvary conquered my heart”. Sorry, sir. My Scriptures say, “Praise him with trumpet sound;
    praise him with lute and harp! Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe! Praise him with sounding cymbals;
    praise him with loud clashing cymbals!” This speaker may call me immoral and unsaved, but I’m sticking with what the Bible actually says on this one.

    1. Fun fact: If you just count words without context, the command to the Israelites that is repeated most often in the Bible is, “Sing.”

  10. Right around 7:00 – “Chuck Berry said so. And it’s the truth.”

    How many other things that Chuck Berry said do they automatically accept as “the truth?”

    1. Dont’ forget that Elvis Presley like to play his music to synchopation.

      1950 called, they want their sermon back.

    2. “How many other things that Chuck Berry said do they automatically accept as “the truth?” ”

      My ding-a-ling? :mrgreen:

  11. I am waiting for him to actually read the Bible. Isn’t this church?

    1. but that would reveal that the Bible doesn’t actually say any of that stuff

      2. Doesn’t the Scripture command followers of Christ to use “psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs”? This command certainly implies that there are some songs that are not spiritual. In the speaker’s opinion, certain musical styles are inherently not spiritual.

        I thought people here would be tolerant of differing views… perhaps I was mistaken.

        1. See, this is where we get into it. If there are spiritual songs, then there must be unspiritual songs. Of course there are. Just about anything by Madonna or Eminem. I am not saying that they are bad, but they don’t even try to be spiritual.

          But that isn’t the point. The point is that you took a verse that was not about creating joy, and turned it into a “No-NO Bad Dog!”

          And why shouldn’t we argue back? What would tolerance look like? As previously mentioned, I value kindness and I am working on developing that trait. But it isn’t like we are name-calling or saying that you are going to burn in hell or bullying you like some poor gay kid. We are challenging something that you feel personally attached to, and I understand how that can be uncomfortable. But we are expressing our disagreement and dismay in terms far more respectful of the speaker in this video than he used.

          I haven’t’ read any comments which referred to anyone or anything using a shaming term like “dirty.” But the speaker on this video called a sweet song about a simple, magical kiss “dirty.” I have the right to be angry that something so sweet and innocent would be turned into something sexually shameful. And this was posted in response to a completely secular song, which is proud and unkind. Do you see where we are coming from here?

        2. Well said Christine.

          The “spiritual songs” refered to come from the context “Be filled with the Spirit speaking to your selves in Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your hearts to the Lord.” The “spirituall songs” are further given context in I Corinthians where Paul says, “What is the out come then, I will sing with my spirit and I will sing with my understanding, I will pray with my spirit and I will pray with my understanding.” In both passages “spiritual songs” are those from the in most parts and are contrasted with songs of the understanding not “un-spiritual” songs. 🙂

          Yup, I opened THAT can of worms. 😈

        4. I would contend that Eminem is quite spiritual, in the sense of ‘relating to the soul or spirit’. His is just a very angry, bitter spirit.

  12. Not going to watch it. I’ve gotten into too many music debates to know that the only thing that ends up happening when I listen to stuff like this is I get my blood pressure up. The “arguing with a pig” adage applies here.

  13. No Bible at all. He didn’t use a single Bible verse, didn’t even mention the Bible. Barely mentioned God and used absolutely no logic. In fact, his entire presentation was based upon the premise that obviously anything he says is wrong is therefore wrong. Now maybe he had covered all of that before, but it didn’t sound like it. So he basically starts with a premise he didn’t prove and works from there. Fallacy built upon fallacy built upon fallacy.

    At this point it was actually fun to watch. I was able to laugh at just how ignorant this guy is.

    Hey if you have a *preference* for a certain style of music, I’m all for that. You have your preference, but when you take a preference and make it into a doctrine I believe you have now moved into the category of legalism/apostasy. This guy isn’t preaching the Bible. He is preaching his made up rules that now you have to obey.

    1. My guess is that the video picked up right after he gave a verse that somehow proved (to him) that some melodies praise God so some melodies don’t.

      After my husband studied hermaneutics in seminary (they taught him well), he realized that how they taught him to exegete Scripture completely invalidated all their sermons against CCM!

    2. Hey if you have a *preference* for a certain style of music, I’m all for that. You have your preference, but when you take a preference and make it into a doctrine I believe you have now moved into the category of legalism/apostasy. This guy isn’t preaching the Bible. He is preaching his made up rules that now you have to obey.

      I could not agree more. Bravo.

  14. I only would have been impressed and listened to what he said had he played the sax, guitar and piano all at the same time.

  15. I also love when he gives ‘examples’ of the bad ways to play. He like fumbles a few notes and pretends that we just heard a jazz concert and should be offended. The man can’t play in those styles so he shouldn’t pretend he did. But more importantly how are those people supposed to know what the bad style sounds like? A beginner sax player sounds like that does that make his practice ungodly? Grade school bands sound like that, does that make them ungodly? Hell that guy probably sounded like that when he started. Was he ungodly until he got better?

    I also like when he says, “it is the heart of the person playing the instrument.” or something along those lines. Right…so if I, a saved person, go and play that jazz music then everything should be fine right? Oh but wait he covered this, if I play that music I’m not saved. So there we have it. He just circled back and now has a nice tight circle to capture his audience.

  16. “It helps the body to dance.” Really, because it doesn’t help mine at all. I still can’t dance. You would think that if dancing led to all sorts of immorality, that all sorts of immorality would lead to dancing. But alas, no.

    Two of the greatest regrets of my life are in this one little video. The first is that from sermons like this one, I learned that it was more important to be right than to be kind. And when I was still in IFB and while I was still recovering, I was unkind to a lot of people. I deeply regret that, and I am still learning gentleness and kindness.

    The second regret, however, is one that I don’t see myself being able to correct. I have never danced. There is something so basically human about dancing, and it feels that to have not danced it to have never been fully human. That little slice of normalcy is something that I have grieved.

    1. “I learned it was more important to be right than to be kind.” Oh, what a good point, Christine! That was the impression I got from years under this kind of preaching too. But 1 Cor. 13 doesn’t give us that excuse. We can be right til the stars fall, but without love, it is NOTHING!!! God expects us to do justice (that’s the being right part) AND to love mercy (that’s the being kind part) and to walk humbly with our God. (And BTW, I too wish I could dance.)

        1. I am surprised by how many ex-fundies never dance. It is like we get the rhythm scared out of us.

        2. I consider myself good if I can clap to the beat! I have rhythm but dancing is a whole OTHER story that no one really wants to see! lol

        3. @notdrinkingthekoolaid,

          I sound like the echo when I try to clap along! I start out fine but somewhere along the way I lose track and I am the last to notice.
          I gave up trying a few years ago. Being the only one not clapping is not as conspicuous as being the only one clapping off beat.

        4. I don’t know what this proves: I can dance really well, but only when I have an electric guitar strapped on. ❓

        5. @ apathetic…keep working on it! You’ll get it! Just watch for those tempo changes! 🙂

      1. I am not quite sure how sarcastic you are being. So in case you are being absolutely sincere, I’ll ask if you ever played the hymnal game.

        2. Rach: please tell me that you are kidding. Because I may need to start with, “When a man and a woman love each other very much…”

        4. I have no idea what a hymnal game is. I’ve heard there were hymnal games, but I don’t know what they were.

        6. Okay, by popular demand, here is the hymnal game, but after this I am going to stop procrastinating and do my “real” work.

          The hymnal game was something that I only learned after I left IFB churches, but it actually works best with IFB hymnals. You let the hymnal fall open to a random page, and add the words “in bed” or “between the sheets” to any given song title. The girl who giggles first obviously is the loser because she usually gets busted. When Elizabeth C wrote that she dances to “Coming Again” which has the rhythm of … well, no discernable rhythm at all, I wondered if she was being sarcastic a la’ the hymnal game.

          This sounds like nothing more than a naughty juvenile game. But it is really an eye-opener about how much the language of sexuality or romance is used in fundie songs. For example, later in this thread someone mentions the title of a song, “All the Way.” I dare you to compare the hymnals of other denominations to the common fundie’s hymnals.

          And no, I don’t believe that it is deliberate. I do believe, however, that it has a lot to do with repression.

          And how ironic is it that this is a video of a pastor calling the simple, sweet song “Heart and Soul” dirty. Seriously, it has in it nothing more salacious than a simple old fashioned kiss.

        7. I challenge you to read Blessed Assurance.

          I mean really, really read it as a poem not just a familiar song.

          You might be surprised.

        8. Yeah, actually, it kind of ooks me out. Anything that starts with “Perfect submission” just can’t end well, at least, not between my sheets.

          But Fannie Crosby’s hymns remind me of a book I read called “Lying Awake” by Mark Salzman. It is about a nun who has the same kind of ecstatic experiences of the Divine. I highly recommend it; it is a novel but it asks important spiritual questions.

          Okay, now I am going to get back to work.

        9. I heard it as “in the bathtub.”

          Master, the Tempest is Raging in the Bathtub
          Standing on the Promises in the Bathtub
          Is My Name Written There in the Bathtub?

        10. Thanks for the explanation, btw. I’ve always known that as the Chinese Fortune Cookie game. I’m sure I’ll forget it in 6 months when someone else mentions then hymnal game.

        11. I went to fundy churches and schools, don’t remember any hymnal games, but I do remember that the words to amazing grace can be sung to the tune of gilligan’s island perfectly. Try it!

        12. Amazing Grace can also be sung to “Ghostriders in the Sky.” The verse fits perfectly and on the chorus, you just sing: “Amazing graaaaaace! Amazing graaace! That saved… a wretch… like me.”

    3. I look at this guy and I think about our local Orthodox co-ed reform school. Yes, there is such a thing. They throw a prom every year. The young women wear elegant, timeless dresses and the young men wear tuxedos. They dance all night to the Virginia Reel and any number of waltzes, polkas, and Russian folkdances, then (if the weather and the tide cooperate) have a huge bonfire on the beach. These kids sing all day, every day. Most of their liturgy is sung, they have a singing group that has traveled the U.S. to perform sea chanteys and other classic folksongs, and they do a one-hour children’s show on public radio. And they’re really, really good!

      They also have a division between good and bad popular music. Good popular music is music that any random assortment of ordinary people can sing together without a lot of preparation. Music, says the school principal, is a communal activity and should be reclaimed as something people do, not something they consume.

      But he’s a shaggy long-haired weirdo in a black dress, so what does he know?

    4. There are a great many varieties of dancing; there could well be one out there that works for you.

      The privacy of your own home is a good place to practice, and may I suggest you practice a lot. (Your heart will thank you for the cardio workout too.)

    5. I wish I grokked quoting here, but oh well.

      >You would think that if dancing led to all sorts of
      >immorality, that all sorts of immorality would lead to
      >dancing. But alas, no.

      That’s just priceless! Made me smile.

      >Two of the greatest regrets of my life are in this one >little video. The first is that from sermons like this >one, I learned that it was more important to be right >than to be kind. And when I was still in IFB and while I >was still recovering, I was unkind to a lot of people. I
      >deeply regret that, and I am still learning gentleness >and kindness.

      Well said. It’s our ego jostling around when we ignore kindness in favor of bombast. It is easy, Fundy or no, to play the I’M RIGHT! card in conversation. And so pointless.

      1. You have to do the following:

        <blockquote>whatever you are going to quote</blockquote>

        Will end up looking like this:

        wahtever you are going to qutoe

  17. I grew up in the church with these same sermons used to prove that only the piano or the organ were godly. (“those electric guitars even have horns on them…)

    This ws the epitome of cultural colonialism for us in Latin America: Only instruments and music from Europe are godly.

    1. No olvides las canciones! Solamente son permitidas las canciones “antiguas”. Me molestaba bastante que los misioneros no querian ni experimentar la cultura local. Quieren ir a un pais para fundar una iglesia que parece y suena como una iglesia norteamericana. Denuncian mucha de la cultura local como pecado.

      1. Yo se que estas diciendo. Escuche un misionero en mexico diciendo que la costumbre de estar mas o menos tarde a cultos y todos los demas es un pecado, que no gloria al senor, y no es cultural, mas vargo.

        2. Yes. He said it was not cultural, just lazy, and not honoring to the Lord. Ethnocentrism at its finest.

    2. Ricardo, I hear ya. Those “horns” are cutaways to allow the player to reach the highest notes easily. That said, I must report that the electric guitar called the SG by Gibson has two cutaways that are “officially” called devil horns. (As I write this I have an electric guitar within reach, so I’m not anti. Just have to admit that at least one guitar style has “devil horns”.)

    3. Bluh?

      The preacher who said that IS aware that the earliest piano-like instrument wasn’t invented until… the 15th-16th Century? (There were proto-organs as far back as the 2nd century BC, though) All the music done in the Bible would’ve been horns, woodwinds, drums….

    4. Ricardo, you hit the nail. This video is the basis for Fundy rejection of modern music. It’s the old colonist mentality taking on a religious forms.

      “Godly music doesn’t sound like anything else the world plays.” Bologna!!! What these Fundies call “godly music” is really 16th century European-style music, and much secular classical music reflects this style. It’s music that particularly appeals to introverts.

      African, Asian, and Latin American music are guided by different dynamics, thrive in other kinds of instrument, and appeal to several types of personalities.

      Thank the Lord for diversity!

  18. Haven’t read any comments yet, and just got about 2 mins into the video and I had to say that (1) I love his rendition of “Jesus doeth all things well” (or whatever the name of that song is). (2) despite his idiotic “good melodies & bad melodies” thing I like a lot that he’s telling fundies there’s no such thing as a bad instrument, it’s kind of said that they have to be told that. Lastly, (3) he said something right after playing the saxamaphone, that is very true, the music you play reflects who are, however then does the very fundy thing that says if you aren’t who I think you should be (and therefore playing the music I like), then you are bad. Casting moral aspersions on people for expressing themselves is incredibly stupid & dangerous, and by extension he’s expressing his own moral purity based on the music that he plays (kind of implicit, but it’d be hard to deny that is being communicated). Just initial thoughts early on.

    1. Oh, and I was singing along with “Jesus doeth all things well” when he played it.

  19. I gotta ask. Can anyone tell what is on the communion table? I don’t wanna believe that it’s the 10 commandments, but it looks like it could be?

    1. I think it’s the curved top edges of a large heart surrounded by flowers. But the texture and shape are remniscent of the stone tablets!

      1. I guess because it make a strange statement symbolically to put a representation of the law (which shows us our sin) on top of the communion table which is for us to remember Christ’s body and blood shed for the remission of sins. The veil was torn in two. We can boldly approach the throne of grace through Christ. I guess visually it would just seem to be reimposing the Law over Gospel.

        2. Exactly. Would totally be making the law sacramental, and replacing the blood & body of Jesus w/ the 10 commandments would be just heresy, I think. I don’t think there’s any other word that would describe that. I found it shocking to see that shape there for sure. Am hoping PW is right it’s just a weird blended heart, cause I really can’t see for sure what it is.

        3. well, reimposing the law over the gospel is exactly what he was doing, although the law was from God, the laws he was teaching came out of the outbound lane of his digestive tract.

        4. I think it would be honest if they put the 10 commandments on the communion table. I would be shocked to the point of speechlessness if they actually did it though.

  20. Let me introduce myself. Still consider myself a fundy-ish. Hate the connotation of it associated with little love and lots of fighting. Growing up as a MK I was mostly unaware of all this til I went to BJ. My Dad would talk about it but mostly in a condemning way. I think I’d rather not be associated with any large group so I like the idea of Independent Fundamental but then I get the connotation thing again.

    Anyway so music. I think there are definitely some sinful songs out there. I think there are song styles that are better for worship than others. A problem I’m facing is that a lot of the limited number of ccm songs I’ve been exposed to have better teaching than some old favorites. So I like what guys like Pettit do to arrange those songs so that I can use them.

    1. I started out at a similar place, and eventually I came to the place where I have completely rejected almost everything taught in fundamentalism. As I began studying the scriptures on music, I realized taht they weren’t anywhere close to what the Bible actually says. Then I started to question other things, and I found out that many of their core beliefs are not biblical.

      I am not saying that you will or should follow the same path, but you may want to be aware that as you begin to investigate these teachings, that the rabbit hole goes deeper than you might expect.

      1. Kevin and MJG: Actually, I suggest you pick a point that you can live with and then don’t question it or try to explain it using logic and the Bible as proof-text.

        Trust me when I say that this particular rabbit hole has no end. So just pick a position and have faith, not reasoning. It’s what you’ll have to do in the end anyway, so you might as well just go with it now.

        1. Sorry Christine. No can do. I appreciate your comment, but I believe that it is necessary to formulate a worldview using biblical principles and also logic. Such a view should not involve proof-texting, but should try to take scriptural principles as a whole and live by them, while still realizing that others may disagree with your interpretations.

          When I was talking about the rabbit hole, I was specifically referencing the beliefs of fundamentalism and not just talking about Christianity in general.

          The Christian faith in general does not just require someone to just pick a spot that they like and hold without reason or backing. That is a tremendous misunderstanding of the Bible’s teachings on faith.

        2. Christine, What Kevin said… We do not have to hang up our minds at the door of “Faith”. The disciples “showed by many convincing proofs that Jesus was alive” My “youthful rebellion” was to question all that I was raised with. The important parts survived but much fell to knowledge.

    2. Precisely – Steve Pettit and his team will be happy to assist you down the slippery-slope of compromise that leads to full-blown CCMism. The Pettit’s re-arrangements of some well-loved CCMish anthems are the gateway-drug to Third Day and Casting Crowns – you’ll make it there eventually. :mrgreen:

      2. Music fights are one of the main things that aggravates me. Common arguments are these:

        1. That song has a beat on the something or other note.
        Me- ok…..

        2. That song is nice, but there are some things that the writer believes that we don’t.
        Me- But what about all these old hymns by catholics and calvinists?

        3. It sounds sinful.
        Me- I agree with this to some extent. I have a hard time thinking that heavy metal and rap can be successfully used to praise God, but I don’t think that there is only one style that can. The “gray” area is much broader than some people allow.

        For myself, I look at music much the way I look at Christian literature. Be discerning. I don’t read a book and agree with everything in the book or with everything the author has ever said. I can take a song that might be written by someone I don’t agree with in all points of doctrine or in musical style, but a particular song might be fine, like a particular quote or book might be fine.

        1. “I agree with this to some extent. I have a hard time thinking that heavy metal and rap can be successfully used to praise God, but I don’t think that there is only one style that can. The “gray” area is much broader than some people allow.”

          This could have been a quote from me 4-ish years ago. What is it about those styles that says they can’t be acceptable to God? Is it because “mainstream” practitioners of said styles are regarded as godless heathens? Or because the styles themselves “sound” ungodly (an incredibly subjective assertion, I hope you’ll agree)?

          Eventually I got to the point where I figured the music debate is little more than the weaker brother freaking out over meat offered to idols. And in case you’re not familiar with him…
          http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2009/03/the-weaker-brother/

        2. Here is what cracks me up about this whole argument: many of the good old hymns (pre-Fannie-Crosby)are actually just old bar songs gussied up for God. Think about your favorite really old hymn, now think about that tune with slightly different words sung by a couple dozen half-drunk Brits. It works, now doesn’t it?

        3. @Christine- That’s my point about the artist. Consistency is certainly lacking isn’t it?

          @Mark- I’m reluctant to say that music is amoral. Music is an art form just like painting, photography, plays, and movies. An artist is trying to get a message across. I believe that some music styles are almost impossible to use to “teach and admonish one another” and could hardly be used for “psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.”

        4. You’re reluctant because a million misguided sermons have told you to think that way. Give it time… 🙂

        5. If you have trouble believing that rap (that godless and unwholesome form of music that it is) could be used to communicate scriptural truth and blessing, I challenge you to compare the lyrics of a song by Lecrae, Tedashii, or Shai Lynne (sp?) to the average song in a hymnal.

          The Christian Rap is more God-focused, more doctrinally sound, and more likely to be understood by people today. The only thing holding people back is the negative stereotype that they have of rap music because of what rap usually portrays. However, if it doesn’t portray sinful stuff, that stereotype really doesn’t fit.

        6. I DETEST RAP!!! But that doesn’t mean God can’t use it…. Ohhhh that washard to say. 🙄

        7. I used to think rap couldn’t proclaim the glory and holiness of God, now I think it’s one of the best avenues. One rap song contains at least three times the lyrics as a traditional song–perfect for proclaiming Truth! And this stuff is awesome: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCkpKly65rA

          Lyrics to Shai Linne’s Triune Praise:
          Praise God the Father, the Immortal Creator
          For Your glory you made us, You’re the Sovereign Orchestrator
          All that You decree will most surely come to happen
          You’re awesome as can be and Your glory none can fathom
          Nothing could ever stain You, the heavens can’t contain You
          We thank You for sending Your Son to explain You
          Otherwise we would have remained in the dark
          but You sent Your Holy Spirit to spark a change in our hearts
          According to Your eternal purpose and will
          You determined to reveal Yourself to those who deserve to be killed
          Those of us whom You foreknew adore You
          We praise You that You predestined us to be conformed to
          The image of Your Son who’s the radiance of Your glory
          When I meditate on it, the weightiness of it floors me
          So Father, we’ll praise you over and over again
          Because You sent Your only Son to atone for our sins

          Praise God the Son, Second Person of the Trinity
          You’re distinct from the Father, yet you share in His divinity
          Fulfilling an eternal covenant- You came through
          To planet earth to save who? All the Father gave You
          You became a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief
          For the glory of Your Father You extinguished the beef
          That stood between us at the cross- the Father’s anger released
          The Shepherd slain for the sheep, the situation is deep
          I can’t find the right language to speak, in fact it’s making me weep-
          Just the thought of You saving this creep
          You’re risen from the dead, I still can’t get this in my head,
          How the Judge could leave the bench and go to prison instead
          Lord Jesus, you’re amazing, Your bleeding is what saved men
          It’s the reason why we’re praising, can’t wait to see Your face
          In the meantime, please help us to see You as colossal
          And by the Spirit live lives worthy of the gospel

          Praise God the Holy Spirit, 3rd person of the Trinity
          Distinct from Father and Son, yet share in Their divinity
          Holy Spirit we praise You, You don’t like the spotlight
          You’d rather point away from yourself and give props to Christ
          But yet because You’re God, You deserve veneration
          And You’re the One responsible for our regeneration
          You apply the finished work of Christ to all the elect
          Your call is effectual- You haven’t lost one yet
          You comfort us when sin, Satan and the world got us bothered
          And it’s only by You that we cry out “Abba Father”
          You’re the Spirit of adoption, the Spirit of Truth,
          You graciously provide Your people with the gifts and the fruit
          You help us kill sin and dis-attach us from our idols
          If it wasn’t for You, we’d never understand the Bible
          Because You wrote it- For our life it will surely suffice
          Amazingly, You do it all for the glory of Christ!

          Chorus:
          Glory to the Father, Glory to the Son,
          Glory to The Spirit- Three and Yet One
          One in Your essence, Three in Your Person
          The same in Your nature, distinct in Your working
          Oh my soul- behold the wonder of the Trinity
          Blessed be the Trinity, Oh, what a mystery!
          I’ll stand amazed for the rest of my days
          Pouring out my heart in Triune praise!

        9. The rap haters have to be doing something wrong. IDK how you can listen to Tupac and not be delighted! 🙂

  21. Unbelievable. The Bible says make a joyful noise unto the Lord. Says nothing about the “styles.” If it was so important, surely there would have been a “Thou shalt not praise God with boogie-woogie rhythms” in there somehow. And David danced before the Lord in his underwear, so who cares if it makes you want to dance.

    It is so sad to see how delusional and misguided this man is (and that poor congregation who are probably holding on to his every word)…

    1. I’ll never understand how they can ignore the Psalms so totally. The speaker in the clip says that godly music only inspires you to march not dance. That’s ridiculous! David danced and he was a man after God’s own heart, and Psalm 150 says, “Praise Him with the dance.”

      I used to believe the stuff this guy is preaching, then I started realizing it was just the IFB preference, but now I’m calling it what it is: unbiblical!!!

      1. David also commited adultry and murder, numbered the people, and ate the bread dedicated in the temple. Just sayin’. Actually I love to dance. That’s the best part of directing choir, closest thing to dancing that you can get away with in most churches.

        1. It’s definitely a good point to say that just because David did it doesn’t mean it’s OK. However, adultery and murder were both prohibited in the 10 Commandments, and he was also specifically not allowed to number the people. It’s clear that in doing those things, he sinned. He was called on those sins, he repented, and he also suffered greatly for sinning. I’m not so sure that eating the shewbread was wrong; Jesus seemed to consider him innocent for eating it in Matthew 12.

          But dancing is never forbidden in the law, and the one person who looked down on David for dancing – Michal – is presented in 2 Samuel 6 as being wrong for criticizing his praise which he was doing before the Lord. Also the Psalms are part of the canon and seem to actually command dancing in Ps. 150:4.

          So I think it’s OK to assume that David, called a man after God’s own heart, was not being ungodly when dancing, but actually pleasing God.

  22. P.S. He knows an awful lot about all this heathen music to be demonstrating it so confidently. 😉

  23. I’ll never forget “Twisted Sister” doing “O come all ye Faithful” on Lettermen a few years ago.

    I don’t know if any or all of the members of Twisted Sister are christian, but they seemed to be seriously performing the song, and it made me think about the verse where Jesus told the Pharisees that if the diciples didn’t praise Him, the rocks would.

    2. Dee Snider is Jewish I believe. I think he does the songs cause holiday records tend to sell.

  25. I watched this video on YouTube, and I noticed that it’s a video response to a Casting Crowns song. Now, I’m no Casting Crowns fan (I suppose I have hipster leanings, so I’m supposed to reject all things “pop”), but I have to laugh about the attempt to convert people who viewed the video of that Casting Crowns song. I wonder if the 110 people who viewed this video were converted from the 22,738 who viewed the other video.

  26. Since we’re on the subject of music, I thought I’d introduce you to my brother. Yes, he studied music at Bob Jones University. Apparently apples can fall pretty far from the tree. youtu.be/ZVyPdOvqBSE

    1. The music pastor at our church is a BJU graduate as well, and he rocks. It is funny to see several (that I know of) BJU trained musicians using the nice classical training that they received to glorify the Lord with music that is antithetical to what they were taught at the bob.

  27. Did any of you ever hear something like this at a youth camp or retreat and get all convicted about your music? And when you got home you threw it away, then went out and bought the same albums again a few weeks later? I must have bought Green Day’s “Dookie” and Soundgarden’s “Superunknown” like three times.

    1. Actually, I am the one kid I know who never did. For most of my time, I never broke the rules. But when I did, I had enough good sense to keep it to myself. To be clear, for those of you who don’t get the subtext, the beatings would have commenced had I been stupid enough to reveal my secret love of “Manic Monday.”

      We had a chapel speaker my senior year of high school that got just about everyone in school to confess their sin of listening to rock music or CCM. There was only me and one other guy who just refused to do it. We both knew that it would end badly, And sure enough, the administration suspended every kid except this guy and I for three days – because they confessed during a revival.

      And, by the way, listening to Manic Monday still makes me smile, not because I really like it so much as I love the fact that I am free to listen to it if I want.

        1. Answer this honestly, do I really want to? And please, please, please, don’t ruin that song for me. It makes me smile. I can be dealing with the most unkind person in the world, put in my headphones and instant grin. Do you know how valuable that is?

        3. Wow, I was afraid that this was going to be some sort of kitten or crazy person video (sorry I didn’t know the band.) But I actually liked this better. Thanks! I think I am always happy that it is finally true: “I wish it was Sunday, because that’s my fun day, my I don’t have to run day.”

    2. See? You CAN be agreeable! 😆

      Actually, every time the VanGelderen crew would visit for the yearly “The War” event, there was a girl at my fundy high school who would get convicted over her music and clothes. She’d bring these to the end-of-the-week Evil-Burning Campfire Service, and teary-eyed, she’d drop them into the blaze. Everyone left those services wearing the scattered ashes of her designer jeans.

      1. If she got convicted every year that means she went back to her old ways at some point. How long did it take her to start wearing her old clothes again?

    1. Too late! By the 8 min mark you already got *it* under your toenails, etc! 😉

  29. oh please oh please let their be a full christian rock band in heaven, so these crazy people can eat their words!!!!
    GIVE ME A BREAK!!!

    2. I have it on good authority that there won’t be Christian rock. Fortunately, though, there also won’t be Ira Sankey or Fanny Crosby. It’s gonna be all Bach all the time. Sorry. 😉

    3. I know! When we listen to Trans-Siberian Orchestra (all year long – not just at Christmas) and it gets into the great rock sound, my husband and I look at each other and hope that’s what the music in heaven will be.

    4. But it might be David Crowders version of hell to try to teach this dude how to hoe down!

      1. You sound like Rob Bell with that whole “hell is based on the choices you make” nonsense.

        1. I haven’t read the book, but I’d count it as a compliment to be closer to whatever he says then to whatever it is you’re peddling! 🙂

  30. What I don’t get is this: It’s one thing to declare certain types of music inappropriate for worship or, more specifically, for church. I’m a musical snob and an Anglican (those used to be redundant; not so much these days) and praise songs generally make me grind my teeth, though I’ll not judge anyone who finds it helpful.

    What I don’t get is why does all music have to be worship music (with the possible exception of classical among the “cultured” IFB crowd)? I’ll grant you that worship music maybe should be different, but what’s wrong with music about war and love and nature and legend and history? And what’s wrong with making the music fit the particular message? What gives you, Pastor, the right to cheer on your favored godless college football team, or you, Pastor’s wife, to watch some godless secular drama (can’t name any as I don’t watch TV), while you view my listening to Josh Ritter’s Another New World (a lovely song about a world explorer who takes one last voyage with his beloved ship into the Arctic) as so darn wicked?

    1. I get the impression a lot of Fundies think that any form of entertainment that doesn’t mention God or Jesus at LEAST 20 times per minute is AT BEST a complete waste of time, and is much more likely completely eeeeevil.

      1. There’s certainly that attitude to be accounted for. During my commencement week at BJU, my parents spent a few minutes with a missionary we knew who was passing through town. They told him they had to head back to meet me so we could go to a performance of Twelfth Night. His response? “What does that have to do with the gospel.”

        How does one even begin to deal with that kind of attitude? Particularly when the speaker is a rabid WWII-Pacific buff and scuba diver to boot. I mean, really. Attending Shakespeare means disregarding the gospel but doing your WWII pilgrimage glorifies God? (Granted, it involves the Marines, who are basically the equivalent of God’s Own Army.)

        1. It’s hard to reason with someone like that. It shows why we Christians all need a faithful friend to help speak the true Gospel into our lives. Next time he starts waxing eloquent about his hobbies, someone needs to say, “What does that have to do with the Gospel?” which would hopefully hold up the mirror of truth so he could see his hypocrisy.

  31. I have heard this “mantra” at least 100 million times. While I haven’t attended a fundy church for over 6 years, I am still “un-fundifying” myself.

    He’s a typical fundy – thinks he is superior and his way is right. I think the root cause of a lot of fundy issues is their view of God. Apparently they can’t see God clapping his hands in a worship/praise song or getting excited about anything. Every song must be sung softly and slowly with only a piano and organ beacause that MUST be the way God sees worship. I wonder how they got to that conclusion? David certainly didn’t act that way.

    1. Yes, all his examples were slow and gentle songs. He did allow for a march rhythm but he never gave any examples of it. Borrrrring!

  32. I’m embarrassed to admit that I did a presentation much like this when I was a young fundy-lite music pastor. I only did it once, because I had to admit that even I wasn’t convinced! 😕

  34. Couldn’t watch (stomach) the whole video, but I bet this gentleman knows all the words to “God Bless America” and the “National Anthem,” jus sayin’.

  36. Biblically speaking this man could not be further off. People who read their Bible will notice that in the Psalms no direction of musical style is given. In fact the Psalms say to praise The Lord with a new song, and “with loud cymbals” and other instruments. The one thing that separates sacred from secular music is the lyrics and lyrics ALONE. if a rock style song is written extolling the love and grace the Father has shown through the sending of His son to rescue us from hell, and someone says, “I can’t worship God by singing this song because of the style” Then that person has not this slightest idea of what worship is. You have missed the mark by a distance greater than the distance that now lies between you and God. You have made the worship of God about your personal musical likes and dislikes instead of what is pleasing to Him. I think God would rather you worship Him in spirit and truth than worship Him only when you feel comfortable.

    2. Yup. God created music. He didnt create secular music, or sacred music because there is no such thing. There is music. I can worship Jesus while listening to Coldplay, Journey, etc. just like I can worship Jesus while listening to music with Christian words. I dont think that the sacred/secular divide exists like the fundys think it does. Technically, everything is sacred because God made it.

  37. I haven’t read this all the way through but Imma gonna just sum up right here. Its about BLACK PEOPLE. Its another form of IFB thinly veiled racist paranoia. White folk music,(Celtic, etc) ok. Black folk music (blues, rock, hip hop) bad.

    1. Personally, I find it ignorant to assert that blues/rock is exclusively “black people” music…

      1. Its roots are mostly definitely African, its not even debatable. The point is, if you study the roots of American fundamentalism, its tied closely with pro slavery, followed by post slavery pro segregation and the KKK. Fundamentalism’s obsession with rock music is another byproduct of this fixation on racial purity, and the white man’s superiority. The language is coded.

        1. I personally agree. I would say it’s proxy language more than coded, but that’s kind of just a different phrase for the same thing, it just seems a bit more specific. IMO. Totally agree.

        2. I read that the main reason the SBC was formed was because they believed slavery was sanctioned in the bible.

        3. @exfundy – while this is true, i believe it happened well before the civil war, and was later repudiated. the sbc learned that racism is wrong; the independent baptists still haven’t gotten there.

    2. Maybe…I just finished watching (suffering through) this video and I was about to bring up the same point you did. This is nothing more than the old recycled BJU/Southern IFB racist “if the black people like it, it must be of the devil” idiocy.

      I’d rather listen to Chuck Barry any day over this fool’s drivel.

  38. You know what? I don’t think God even hears the style of music we sing to him. I think all he hears is the intent of the heart that’s singing it. So if a kid who grew up on the streets of Seattle wants to praise him in a style a lot of people would condemn, let him…he’s praising God in his language just as an African praises God in his.

  39. i can’t remember this guys name but, I’ve seen him. After all this “instruction” he and his son sang a song the included
    …yes
    ~yodeling 🙄

    1. And yodeling is God-honoring because …? Oh, I know! Because it’s from western Europe! That must be it.

  42. In my fundy-est days I was a rabid hater of secular rock music, and I was awfully harsh about a lot of CCM as well. I hereby apologize from the bottom of my heart. I was more concerned with being “right” than about the state of my own heart, more concerned with being perceived as being “spiritual” than with listening to needy people all around me. I thank the Lord for leading me out of that mindset, and I would go back and change that part of my history now if I could.

  44. Although another commenter touched on it, I’ll be blunt. This argument about musical style being “satanic” has been around for a very long time as a form of white supremacy. Drums are still not allowed in many churches because they are too “African.” While in seminary in Alabama, I heard it from both sides: whites telling me the godliness of “traditional” (read European) instruments in church, contrasted with the heathenish instruments of black churches. It never made sense until a black preach friend of mine gave me a book about the history of black church music, and it intrinsically being tied to drum and bass lines, which go back to plantation days when drums were used to communicate secretly between slaves. “Preachers” like the one in the video are ethnocentric at best, but when they attach God to their own ethnic pride the become just plain evil.

  45. Greetings! I am Honored to be posting for the first time!! May I start by saying that I have spent no less than 2-3hours a day reading this site for the last two weeks.

    Have I read archives? You bet. Do I understand “George”? Check. But I do need an education concerning the “white piano”? Help!

    Went to local Fundy U. Parents were quasi-Fundy. Didn’t live in the dorms.
    Joining the PCA 14 years ago was the best!
    Went to a Third Day and Tenth Avenue North concert a couple weeks ago and worshipped more in those two hours than I did in my whole life in Fundyland!

    Bassenco and Natalie make me laugh very hard! Cheers!

    1. Welcome to your first post. All true believers can see the white piano those who doubt cannot. Natalie, you’ll have to do the link. I’m technicaly challenged… 😳

      1. Thank you RobM. All cleared up now. My church only has black pianos and wood pianos. Haymen!

        1. You betcha. Glad to know you aren’t in one of “those” churches (with people who believe in a white piano)! 😀

      2. Is too a white piano!! I don’t remember the post, but someone posted a picture of the same ordination pic, but from a different angle. Definitely a white piano 😀

    3. Ok, george… the white piano… but do you know “gid?” Because all posters on here will answer to gid one day. 😉

      And don’t pay attention to Rob. He’s just upset because he’s color blind when it comes to white pianos. 😆

      1. Oh yes, I know “gid” and “gaawwwwd”. What else Don?

        I want to be a fully knowledagble participant at SFL. 😉

        1. bwahaha.. you are already a full fleged SFL participant. You have knowledge of the big three so, welcome to the fold. 😉 Glad to have you on the journey with us. 😎 😀

  46. 1. This guy should learn the right notes to “All the Way my Savior Leads Me” before he gets up and plays it.
    2. Someone pleeeeeease tune this poor man’s guitar. 🙄
    3. Why does he spend more time playing his (unbelievably awful) own renditions of what he believes to be bad? Is that all he practices? 😈
    4. Why the heck does every IFB person alive condemn dancing as though the Bible does not mention it over and over positively?
    5. Who knew every time I show a kid “Heart and Soul” just to keep them entertained that I’m showing them a diiirty, DIRTY song. 😯

  47. Just watched the ENTIRE thing. I’m amused that he references “Heart and Soul”, Chuck Berry, Elvis Presley, disco, boogie woogie, and big band music!!! I know fundies are behind the times, but he is incredibly out of touch.

  48. Why is he so convinced that a march is holy but a dance isn’t when Ps. 150 specifically says, “Praise Him with the dance!!!”? He gave his reason: “A march teaches us to be Christian soldiers” and it should have “a certain sound so people will prepare themselves for the battle.” So for all the preaching I heard against emotional CCM manipulating people, he actually is advocating manipulating people through music – only motivating them to march not dance!

    Later he sums it up by saying godly music should have beautiful harmonies that speak PEACE and stirring rhythms that are march-type. I was amused at the juxtaposition of peace and war. I guess there’s just no place for joyful exuberance in his concept of Christianity. One must either listen to relaxing, peaceful music or be inspired to fight. Why can’t we just praise God with a loud noise?

  49. I’m amused at the words that appear superimposed over the video at the end. Whoever posted this might be Seventh-day Adventist, because they said Sunday was the day of the beast! LOL! The fact that this video was posted on youtube by someone who liked everything EXCEPT the mention of Sunday School makes it so clear that the speaker was preaching legalism and law instead of liberty and grace.

    (And BTW, I’m not attacking anyone who wants to worship on Saturday; I’m just opposed to those who believe it is mandated for all believers.)

      1. I’m sensitive on this subject because I believed it for SO long and now I really think it is legalistic, judgmental, and often unbiblical. So I had a lot to say about it! 😳

        1. I was just noticing the time stamps of your comments. I was fast asleep by then. Heck, I’m lucky if I can stay awake until 10:30 anymore before falling asleep. 😆

        2. Guilty as charged! I WAS up too late, and now I’m a bit groggy. :mrgreen:

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