We in the Church of Christ I went to did “door-knocking”–knocking on doors inviting people to church, Bible study,etc. I hated it also. But you weren’t considered “spiritual” if you didn’t do it.
Sorry, still trying to get used to “leave a reply to”. That comment was meant to go to Emily.
Second. You’re first
THIRD!!!
😀 I’ve finally accomplished something at least somewhat worthwhile today. Now to conquer the position of being first. What to do, what to do…
You played like a champion out there today! Get some rest, got another big game Monday (unless there’s a surprise post before then)
LOL
God commands us to make disciples, not go soul-winning.
Amen, Polished.
one year for our anniversary sunday (“homecoming”), the church printed up their own tracts, complete with a HUGE typo: Camp Creek Captist Church. it made me die a little inside to wedge those in people’s doors.
A better typo than Homecuming!
dropping off flyers is considered soul winning?
If it’s in the rain, Yes. Anything remotely connected to spreading the gospel is soulwinning in their eyes.
To call my dad socially awkward would be incredibly understating the case to criminal proportions. He just LOVES to not only leave tracts for waitresses, will spend a good 5 minutes interrupting 6 or 7 other people’s meals to hand them tracts as well.
God, RobM, I can totally relate. Not only did my father leave tracts, but he was an ass to the wait-staff, and a lousy tipper, to boot.
Wait, I have a half brother somewhere? 🙂
I always have to leave a tip anytime I’m anywhere with Dad. Although I prefer those times be rare & few.
I feel your pain!
I thought that, too. This is like the same thing the pizza delivery people and the Chinese food people do – leaving propoganda in doorways so it will be thrown away. Soulwinning schmoulwinning.
Our church was apparently picky on that one. It would be called canvassing. Just inviting people was inviting. Getting kids on the bus was bus calling. The term soulwinning was reserved for when you actually harassed -er- presented someone with their version of the gospel. Our pastor would sometimes criticize people for only going canvassing, bus calling, or inviting people on Saturdays instead of soulwinning during his sermons.
I used to dread soulwinning and cringe every time someone answered the door. I’m not very extroverted and wasn’t too good at approaching strangers, therefore didn’t usually succeed at ‘converting’ them or bringing them to church. Somehow, if you didn’t bring 66 visitor’s on the Big Day, it was because you weren’t right with God, not because you didn’t have that natural charisma.
Best part about leaving fundyism. No soliciting.
GEORGE! ‘visitors’, not ‘visitor’s’.
I can identify with you, Emily… it was either stop going or have a nervous breakdown, so I stopped and was instantly relegated to second-class Christian because I didn’t go out on their soul-winning times.
I’m not opposed to them going out, but I do think they need to be careful that they don’t try to manipulate people into saying a prayer… think about it: are we trying to get people to cast a spell to take them to heaven by saying the “magic words”? Where in Scripture does anyone ever lead another person in prayer to be saved? All of the Scripture examples are of a believer testifying to the truth, the Holy Spirit bringing conviction, and the sinner crying out to God IN HIS OWN WORDS.
I think the idea that saying one particular set of words is either necessary or sufficient for salvation is a heresy, and a rather bizarre heresy at that.
It also smells like magic.
Abra cadabra alakazam– You’re saved!
I think the idea that saying one particular set of words is either necessary or sufficient for salvation is a heresy
Technically, I think it’s gnosticism. Although most of those magic words were intended to get you past the guards who barred the way to heaven.
“I’m going to be there whether I need an umbrella or notâ€
Now that is sufferin’ for Geezis!!!
Stuff fundies like inspired me to put a no soliciting sign up by my front door. Seriously!
Ah but any good fundy will tell you that they are not soliciting when they go door-to-door. They ain’t selling anything, what they have for you is free. A-men?
Serious a top 10 post of all time, possibly in all of the blog-o-sphere.
George, you know adverbs end with LY. It’s seriously, not serious! You can’t give me a break on the weekend?
George you always will have with you.
Amen, sistah. We had a pack of them invade our neighborhood a couple of years ago. After having dinner interrupted for the 4th time, I put the sign on the door. Doesn’t always work, but at least they know to expect a total bitch answering the door.
About 10-15 years ago, the Catholic diocese of Dallas put out a poster (about 11 x 17) with a luridly Catholic color picture at the top, and a message in large letters. I don’t remember the wording, but I’ll paraphrase it: “This is a Catholic household. We are perfectly happy being Catholics. If you’re trying to sell some other denomination or religion, please save your time and ours by going somewhere else.”
I don’t know if the poster had the desired effect, or served as a magnet for the more determined proselytizers, but the poster was very popular among Catholics in my part of town. I saw it on a lot of front doors and in front windows.
Our bus captain would hit those houses hardest because he said they had the best-behaved kids. 🙂
lol its not considered soliciting, im not selling anything just sharing a free gift
Definition of soliciting is “To make solicitation or petition for something desired” or “To petition persistently; importune:”
If you want them to come to your church, pray a prayer, or read a tract then you are in fact “soliciting.”
Soulwinning just like Jesus and Paul did it… 🙄
What an arrogant twit. “Just led two to the Lord…” Really? What are you going to do about discipling them? I guess he figures he got them saved because he didn’t let a “Walk-by, walk by”
(There’s one for the “The Phrase that Pays” over in the forum.)
They were not even knocking on the doors… but that would slow them down and they wouldn’t be able to post the fantastic numbers highlighting their personal accomplishments. Been there and done that.
Inviting people to church does not the Gospel make. 🙁
“My socks are wet; my shoes are wet…”
I guess he’s all wet, eh?
😀
Of course he is–he’s a Baptist. “All wet” is a requirement.
I love the way the music sounds like he’s leading out The Rebel Alliance, not littering people’s doors with a load of flyers.
Just watched it. 0:28 in, they video tape one of them tramping up to a house *WITH THE TEN COMMANDMENTS STONE TABLETS AS A YARD DECORATION*, and leave a tract! WTF?
Terrorizing 2 high school freshmen into saying a prayer wasn’t soul winning or getting anyone saved either.
What a waste of time, and I just hope the victims they recruit are few & far between.
I noticed what appears to be the stone tablets also.
When I was fundy, I used to go to even the obviously fundy houses that had the KJV scripture signs in the yard and on the car in the driveway because “Maybe they aren’t REALLY saved (because I doubt they go to my church)”. I’m so glad I’ve changed.
Was this a spoof? I can’t believe they are serious! Fake happy. Talking about ‘saving people’ on the street? Most of the way through I was laughing because I thought: ‘What a great spoof vid from Stufffundieslike.’ Then I read the comments and it is a real video! Thank God I wasn’t raised in a fake Fundy church.
It is definitely not a spoof. Darrell posted a video of the same 2 a few weeks ago.
I think it’s becoming obvious that all I’m doing today is attempting to slug through a boring U.S. History review. I’ve been going back and refreshing the page every 10 minutes.
Emily, did you ever read Howard Zinn’s “People’s History of the United States”? I think you would like it.
I met Howard Zinn once. He was a wonderful man in person.
I haven’t, but I’m open to anything that makes history more interesting. Right now I’m reading ‘The Slacker’s Guide to U.S. History’.
Eh. “People’s History” is a bad manichean fable. If you want a real subversive history, read Thaddeus Russell’s “A Renegade History of the United States.”
I grew up in a Christian home, and in (apparently progressive)Baptist church all my life (non IFB though) and I can’t recall ever hearing the term “Soul-winning” until I came across this site. Sharing the love of Jesus through your life, sure; but this hit-and-run door to door stuff was never suggested. (My fundy ex-inlaws weren’t into soul-winning. I got the feeling they thought there were ALREADY too many unworthy people weasling their way into Heaven.)
“I got the feeling they thought there were ALREADY too many unworthy people weasling their way into Heaven.”
Ha, ha!
I gather that “soul-winning” is a Jack Hyles concept. He started it in Texas and promoted it big-time in Indiana when he moved there.
Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.
Man I hate it when solocitors leave stuff on my door. It does not make me want to partake in whatever they are offering.
I reeeeally hate it when they leave stuff under my windshield wiper! 😡
I really hate it when they phone me. I don’t care if it’s supper time or not.
Especially if it’s been raining and all you end up with is a lump of pulp, the traces of which remain on your car even after you take the majority of it away. 👿
I really hate it when I tell them I have to leave now, and they attempt to take me prisoner.
I also hate going to the park and seeing the smiley face tract littered all over the benches and on the sinks in the restroom. Gah.
But, what I hate most is that I got manipulated into doing this myself. Somebody owes me a couple hundred hours of my life back.
The ones that feel like it’s OK to actually put their foot in your door when/if you open it are totally ridic! I’ve never had to deal with them, but I’ve heard people instructed to do so, and thought to my self (if anyone actually does that, I hope they get arrested).
RobM, I would SO slam their foot in the door! That’s just so rude that they would do that and not take the hint.
I’ve had the same business cards stuck in an irretrievable position in my front storm door for months. It just reminds me who NOT to call when I want to sell my gold for cash, get my taxes done, car fixed, trees cut, or whatever they’re selling. BTW, I would greatly appreciate it if the “soulwinners” in my area would wait until 10 am!
A local fundy church hit us like on our door about 2 weeks ago on a Wednesday evening about 2 hours before church. The same church has hit us before like that. Once they even prayed with us, but told us they weren’t going to ask any questions about lives. 🙄
Winning the lost can take on many forms. Some are very good at winning a complete stranger at their door but some are not good at that. But they may be good at putting a tract on a door, or inviting a co-worker, or inviting a friend or family member. Others may not be good at inviting people at all but they may be good at giving the gospel in a Sunday School lesson or leading someone to Christ after church.
The point is that everyone has unique talents and abilities. Door to door soulwinning is not for everyone and we should not criticize those who do not do it or do not do it well. Maybe they are not lazy or backslidden. Maybe they just need to find where their talents are.
Paradigm shift time. There’s no such thing as soul winning! It’s a scam. They didn’t save anyone, and probably haven’t lead a single person to Jesus. Lame (probably exaggerated or invented) anecdotes not withstanding.
Very good point. They were passing out tracts. Call it what it is.
My old church called it witnessing or evangelism. But the idea was to ‘plant seeds’ by finding those interested in Bible studies or answering questions. We believed that the heart, not the words were what was important.
At least back then. From what I’ve seen and heard, they 😥 have changed.
Jason B – Well put, again. Not all of us are cut out to go door to door, but I appreciate these guys efforts for the kingdom of God, and far be it from me to say they didn’t lead some young guys to the Lord.
RobM – You have been flying all over the place once again baffling us with your, well, maybe I better not say, but anyway, apparently I am here to keep you from completely leaving earth’s orbit.
God did not leave you in charge until he gets back. You said “There’s no such thing as soul winning” Open mouth insert foot. The bible (God’s Word) says that “He that winneth souls is wise” Proverbs 11:30 also “Let him know that he that converteth a sinner from the error of his ways, will save a soul from death and hide a multitude of sins” James 5:20 – You may consider winning souls useless, but as I understand God’s Word, it appears He looks at it quite differently.
It says “he that winneth souls” and “he that converteth a sinner” not “he that goeth out and knocketh on doors on Saturday AM” or even “he that passeth out tracts” or even “he that presenteth the gospel”.
“winneth souls” and “converteth a sinner” means a something totally different for me now than when I was a fundy.
JJ – Not quite sure how to respond. My response was to RobM’s direct quote “There’s no such thing as soulwinning! It’s a scam.”
So wake up and smell the coffee. I don’t believe I “knocked” on your door, in fact I wasnt even in your neighborhood.
My apologies, greg. 🙁 Apparently that verse is a big trigger for me! It irks me when people use it to defend door-to-door salesman style evangelism as though that’s all “winning souls” could mean, and I must have misunderstood the “door” you were “knocking” on. Sorry! 😳
JJ – No worries 😎
Dear greg, I’d like to leave a comment in keeping with the spirit of the ones you left above:
“You’re a tool.”
OK, have a nice day, now.
Mark Thomas -I’m not sure what you are but your comment tells us quite abit about the level of your intelligence, and maturity level.
Come to think of it I thought you had to be at least 16 to post here.
Nice to see how little it takes you to devolve. It’s always fun knocking on your door, tool.
Mark Thomas – Speaking of devolving, you roll in here 3 days after the dust-up being another blogging tough guy, and get smacked down, then you want to cry about someone “devolving”
I’ll give you credit, you are pretty funny, pathetic, but funny.
Blog trolling on a weekend? “Crying”? I wish I could give you points for originality, but since the best you can do is a bogus motive assignment and a fabricated emotional invocation (which, let’s admit, are two of the oldest cards in the game), I have to go with my initial assessment: “Quit the interwebs.”
They are as welcome as telemarketers. I am as suspicious of door to door ones as I am of those on the phone.
“What’s the scam?”
You are seriously trying to tell me that the Book of Proverbs was written to the Mt Calvary Independent Fundamental Baptist Church that went door to door witnessing to all their Jewish neighbors? That’s what you’re going to tell me Provers 11:30 means?
Yeah, I’m the one that has left the planet.
Sonofagun. I just bit the idiotic troll bait again didn’t I? That poor poor job of intentionally twisting scripture pissed me off, and I should’ve known better than to just ignore, and I failed. Dang.
And the award for biggest hair splitter this side of the Mississippi goes to RobM, he has never, ever been in a situation that he couldn’t use semantics to get out of. Go ahead and feed the troll, you are the one that has come against the living Word of God, and guess what, for all your bloviating you know it too.
Now settle down and take your meds.
Greg, the Proverbs strophe that you quote is a real bugaboo, with the plainest translation of the second line being “he who takes lives is wisdom.” The word tranlated in KJV as “wins” is laqah’ – the same word is used for men taking women as wives, e.g., David taking Abigail as his wife after the death of Nabal. The Biblical usage of laqah’ “Wins” appears a tertiary meaning at best. The word which was translated “souls” in the KJV, nephesh, has a broad range of meaning from literal physical lives to the blessings of the good life. Recall also that the phrase “Tree of Life” causes us to look back to Genesis and the tree whose fruit sustains, apparently forever. Given the agricultural metaphor suggested by fruit and tree, a better translation of nephesh might be “pluck” or “pick” – gathering the fruit of a tree. This would make 11:30 in English: “The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and wise is the one who gathers that good life.” So a wise man produces the good life, a life of God’s blessings; the wise man’s life then becomes a bounty for others. Many may argue that this is not a particularly “spiritual” or “Godly” reading of this verse, but this reads a lot like the context of Proverbs 11, where the lifestyles of the wise and disobedient are so often contrasted.
As for James, I am surprised that “once-saved, always saved” denominations don’t treat this verse with more circumspection. The surface reading here might lead one to conclude that there are those in the church which a) are unsaved and b) can be saved by the intercession of another believer with the consequent moral reform. First, this isn’t at all a good verse to use to promote door-to-door evangelism, since it begins with, “Are any among you (the brethren)…” This phrase is used by James to indicate the need of members of the church in this chapter – this is the thrid such construction. Also, the notion that human intervention (leading the sinner away from the error of his way) can save people is a direct denial of the saving grace of faith in Christ. If all we needed to be saved was someone willing to lead us back to a course of moral reform, then the blood of Christ is useless. That means that the “psyche” of James 5:20 is more literally “life,” and the salvation referred to is saving a believer from the consequences of a life of disobedience, which James and th other early Church fathers clearly connected with early death, sickness, and so forth.
This is not to say that we are not to go forth and make disciples – that we are commanded to do. How IFB (and other sects) soul-winning efforts would stack up as discipleship-making is a subject for another day.
Der_Berater – I responded but it ended up down at the bottom of the thread.
Owned, tool.
Mark Thomas – You had better hurry up and get to school, your 8th grade science teacher is worried about you.
i totally agree with you on that 🙂
You make it sound like they are selling something. This 1,2,3 pray after me business doesn’t get anyone saved.
Why is it fundies are so fond of the repeat-a-prayer? Isn’t salvation personal?
With fundies, religion is far more important than relationship.
My reply was supposed to be to JasonB. I even hit the “reply” button. So is replying more complicated than that? :p
You have to double check before your comment that “Leave a reply to:________” is who you are replying to. Sometimes the “REPLY” button does not catch who it is for and you just have “Leave a Reply.” In fact, you may have to refresh the page in order to get it to say you are replying to a specific person.
(george taught me that trick) 😀
OK, question for you all. I saw hundreds if not thousands of “salvations” in our church’s stats during my time in fundyland.
Roughly 10% of those people were willing to get baptized (if even that amount — I’m being generous).
I never, ever saw anyone who got “saved” through door-to-door soulwinning get baptized and stick around for more than a month or two. Bus calling, yes. Soulwinning, no.
Is this pretty much the same experience as most of you?
It’s how my mom became a fundy, but I do think the percentage is quite low.
It happens, but I don’t think soulwinning is a particularly strong piece of marketing in the fundy play book.
Well since you asked, my mom and dad were saved through the neighborhood church’s outreach, it was a Baptist church, although not an IFB, I have a sill sitter that I can see from where I am typing this comment, of that church. I will forever be grateful for those faithful folks that came knocking on our door some 60 years ago, and yes they will be rewarded in heaven for their faithfulness.
Hmmm…maybe the trouble was just because of the area where I went to church? We had no one “stick” from soulwinning efforts, just bus calling and invitations from friends and family.
JJ – I don’t think its a very high “success” rate with the door to door evangelism either. As many have pointed out the a,b,c, 1,2,3, repeat after me, is simply not a “valid” or “biblical” way to evangelize, in my opinion. An insincere prayer said anywhere does not save. I’ll go a step further, the prayer doesn’t save, Jesus Saves!
The regular IFB way of door to door soul winning is probably not the best way to evangelize, I don’t like to judge others, but I would go so far as to say it is woefully inadequate.
However I believe it is fine to get out in their communities and invite folks to their church.
Greg, praise the Lord those folks did faithfully preach the Gospel to your folks. Thankfully it does sometimes lead to folks coming to know the Lord as it did with them, & obviously it influenced you too, since you know Him as well. To God be the Glory. Yes, there are certainly excesses, but I’m thankful for those that love the Lord enough to go that way.
Your estimates are very generous. In the last IFB church the number was close to zero. They would stay for a couple weeks, get the hint of crazy, and then leave.
Three comments by Greg today:
“You have been flying all over the place once again baffling us with your, well, maybe I better not say, but anyway, apparently I am here to keep you from completely leaving earth’s orbit.”
“And the award for biggest hair splitter this side of the Mississippi goes to RobM, he has never, ever been in a situation that he couldn’t use semantics to get out of. Go ahead and feed the troll, you are the one that has come against the living Word of God, and guess what, for all your bloviating you know it too.”
“Now settle down and take your meds.”
“I don’t like to judge others.”
No, obviously not.
I think you fell for the same trap of thinking there’s a coherent belief system at work. Abusing Provers 11:30 to justify door knocking disproves that! 🙂
It’s just too easy, and so awfully futile.
Well I am delighted that you took notice of a snivelling servant such as I, oh great one, and to be judged by you is only right and proper for thou hast superiour knowledge about who is foolish and arrogant, and all biblical subjects, as you have told everyone near and far. I should have known better than to have ever had lit a candle when thou hast lit the entire blog with thy mighty and knowing and brilliant light. Forgive me oh great one!
Big Gary – One things for sure, you can never complain about a fundy taking something out of context as long as Darrell leaves this post up.
Sunday Challenge:
What would Brother Greg’s posts be like if he DID judge people?
Sunday Treat: Allow Big Gary to pontificate on any subject that he deems appropriate, he knows what we all neeed. He knows who is arrogant, who is ignorant, and can’t stand folks that he deems are ignorant to feign that ignorance about their arrogance. Don’t believe me, just read his posts.
He knows all things and judges all things, Hail to the great theologian SFL King!
How stupid of me, Big Gary does that everyday!
BG, wouldn’t we just be quoting posts for that challenge?
New definition of “pontificating”: Quoting something word-for-word.
That is how my parents entered fundystan.
I’m going to refer all the stories about how many the MOG “saved” to the post on “I Love to Tell the Story” song. Either these guys are flat out lying to inflate their near worthless values, or they are over lapping some serious numbers, or the whole world is secretly Christian, or people really do get saved multiple times, or I don’t know what else. I’ve been hearing these same Jack Hyles wannabe stories my whole life. If there was a shred of genuine truth to any of these, the world would be a different place. As it is, I think the world is only slightly different and very full of stories.
I think there is a 180 degree difference between so called soulwinning and making disciples of those whom the Lord has prepared to hear and respond to the Gospel.
Soulwinning is a hit-n-run drive by approach to God marketing and is dependent on the works of people. Making disciples begins with God preparing the witness and the hearer. If getting someone to say the prayer is soulwinning then you can have it.
How will someone answer to God for that? “Lord, I got 1,000 people to say the sinners prayer.” How many of those will think they are saved right up to the time they hear Matthew Chapter 7 ringing in their ears… “Depart from me, I never knew you.”
I just get so tired of the “Hey, come to church and listen to our hired gun preach the gospel” approach to witnessing. That we may be the first line of the Gospel for them. May others see Christ in me, and may I be able to give them a reason for the hope that is in me.
Leaving tracts may be all you can do but don’t make a video of it and call it soulwinning.
Well said.
We are told that people noticed the first-century Christians because of their love, and asked them to explain “the hope that was in (them),” not that they went door-to-door pestering their neighbors.
I just went from here to Facebook where someone had this quote. Seems like a lot of folks on the receiving end of “soulwinning” could say this: “I’ve never fooled anyone. I’ve let people fool themselves. They didn’t bother to find out who and what I was. Instead they would invent a character for me. I wouldn’t argue with them. They were obviously loving somebody I wasn’t.” -Marilyn Monroe
We used the word Visitation as a catch-all term for the various soulwinning activities.
I never could understand why the churches that I was a member of all had visitation on Thursday evenings and Saturday mornings.
People do not want to answer their door after dark. They do not like to be disturbed on Saturdays either.
Ah, Boeke Road. Been there several times. Slept in their parking lot in a bus more than once. I’ve met Stephen. Friends with his dad, Ed, who runs a recording studio (Faith Music Missions). Their church pianist, David Chamberlain, can play absolutely anything – extremely talented guy. (The music at the end was Ed, his wife, and David – they have a pretty good gospel trio.) If you ever want to do a case study in what Contemporary Fundamentalist Music sounds like, that’s where you need to go.
All that said, genuinely nice people, if a little…um…intense. Don’t think I’d want to attend there on a regular basis but I always had a blast when I visited.
Anyway, I didn’t see much soulwinning on that video. I saw a lot of putting flyers in doors, and if that’s what passes as “soulwinning” these days it’s no wonder you can’t get anyone excited about it anymore. (Incidentally, I gave up door-to-door loooooong ago. Like any ill-conceived method it’s bound to work every now and then, but I’m of the mind that the discipleship process is better served by spending time with someone at a coffee shop or ball field building a relationship so that discipleship can occur. Very few IFB churches have any sort of discipleship program; most are content with getting someone to make a profession and the discipleship is kinda rolled up in the Sunday morning sermons and a monthly drop-in by a deacon.)
That whole Home Alone thing at 2:20 is the same reaction I had to this whole video 😀
Did a church planting program once and it went like this, If you call 10,000 people with a spiel you will get 1000 interested. Out of that you will get 100 to attend. This will work with almost anything, a church, a chicken fight or mud wrestling (your percentage may be higher with the mud wrestling). That’s basically what modern soul winning is.
Marketing 101. Some of the logical ones will say you are right. That’s why we need to do it, for the 100 that attend and the one that may join. It’s just like amway or any other pyramid scheme.
Based on my experiences with marketing various things (church programs among them), I’d say those percentages are way high. Even for mud-wrestling and chicken fights, which are inherently an easier sell.
To get that kind of response, you’d have to get the mailing list for the Valley Chicken Fighters Association, and target your flyers, phone calls, and visits to them. Even then, if you had lousy chickens in your ring, the 100 responders would never come back for a second visit.
We had 49 with 7000 contacts
I’m a little curious about this. Not skeptical, just curious.
49 what? New members? People visiting the church? People who accepted tracts, or answered the phone when you called?
And what kind of contact was made to those 7000? Was is a mailing, personal visit, leaving a flyer on their doors (as in this video), phone call, or something else?
Here is how it works. Cold call with a spiel and try to get them to accept information in the mail for the chicken fight. Out of 7000 cold call you get 700 to accept the information on a new chicken fight in town. A week before the big fight you follow up with another invitation and a phone call. 50 people show up for the fight. What you do from there is up to you. Maybe they like it and want to go for the championship bout and bring their friends. Maybe you flop
oh, and initial contact is telemarketer style
Now compare that to X Church prints 10,000 anniversary tracts etc etc
Whoever is not against Jesus is for Him; so, I would have to say that, in some way, people could come to know Jesus through this type of evangelism. But, I question the type of growth that comes from the fundy system. In the news yesterday, another pastor from a fundy church went to jail for child abuse. Considering abuse case after abuse case within their circle and the neurotic type theology that comes with it, I don’t know if I could give the guys my endorsement as giving the true Gospel to people. I don’t know- are people commanded to do something they were never given authority to do?
I think people take a couple stories from the Bible and assume that all soulwinning must be done that way. Two examples are 1) Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch – he explains Scripture to him and the man immediately believes and 2) the Phillipian jailer – he asks Paul and Silas how to be saved and he too immediately believes. So the door-to-door salvation salesmen keep waiting for people to do the same thing. The difference is that neither Philip nor Paul were going door to door in these stories; rather, God providentially placed them in those situations. Also both the Ethiopian and the jailer already had their hearts prepared by the Spirit to receive the Word: the eunuch was reading Scripture and the jailer saw prisoners live through an earthquake and not escape.
I wish more Christians would take Jesus’ own example as a guide: He spent three years with a select group of men, discipling them. We are to be instant in season and out of season ready to tell the Gospel when the Spirit prompts, but we are also to get involved in someone’s life and show them love. This can be much more of a sacrifice than giving an hour or two a week to knock on stranger’s doors; this means denying your inclination to flop on a couch in front of the TV and instead plan a BBQ and invite the neighbors over. Daily discipleship takes discipline, effort, and self-denial. No wonder some just hand out a tract and say, “Come to our church.”
PW – As always thoughtful, biblical insight. When God opens that door we need to be ready and willing to walk through it. Someone once said “No one cares how much you know, until they know how much you care” I think this can be readily applied to witnessing. If someone merely knocks on a door and starts preaching at them, how have you demonstrated that you care about them? Someone on SFL said something that sort of stuck with me a few posts ago, that when you just randomly knock doors or stop people on the street, you are treating them as an object.
It struck me the other day, why many, not just IFB’s get stuck on the 1,2,3 repeat after me evangelization plan, and it goes against alot of the folks’ theology that post here. The bible tells us that we must “call upon the Lord” for our salvation, this is something that must be “done” by the person themselves, according to the scriptures, so fundies set as their goal to get as many as they can to “call” which translates to them as “say a prayer”
Btw, God’s plan for salvation of folks, and how they get saved and how the Holy Spirit moves across this planet and touches peoples hearts, is still very mysterious to me, I only have His Spirit and the Word of God to go by, and I try to do the best I can.
Excellent points, & well-said, PW. I agree Greg, it is mysterious to me as well, & Jesus told us it would be in John 3. God Bless.
I only recently learned about tracts, and went through a period of reading them on the net. They’re pretty hilarious, because they’re soooo bad.
Maybe people aren’t aware of this fact, but tracts are mostly used to poke fun at christians. (the only time i’ve ever heard of them..) If someone finds one on their car, they might just save it show their friends and have a good laugh at it. That’s not including the people that would just go into a rage.
Among people who love irony, Jack Chick is a rock star. For every person who reads his tracts and believes them, there are probably 100 who read them (and many collect them) because they are so over-the-top paranoid that they’re entertaining, as long as you don’t take them seriously. Some of them are so hallucinatory that they’re a cheap substitute for LSD.
The same thing goes for a lot of other tracts, but Chick is the bankable name in those circles.
chick tracts were exactly what I was thinking about. I went to their website and read through a bunch, hilarious.
Thankfully, it is extremely unlikely that I will ever have a fundy “soul winner” at my door. In a city of over 330,000, there is one IFB church and judging by the photo on their website only have a dozen or two attendees.
Door to Door soulwinning is as antiquated as door to door vacuum/knife/book salesfolks. It worked in the past when this was an accepted form of sales, but is shunned today.
Leave it to the fundys to stick with 1950s style sales along with clothing, culture, etc…
Der_Berater – I completely agree with your analysis of James 5:20, I kinda threw that on there for good luck, yes its clearly speaking to someone, a believer, that has gotten caught up in something that they shouldn’t be, and a fellow christian brother is pointing this out to them. Of course this would still apply as it relates to my response to RobM. Now onto to the Proverbs verse, can’t really go along with you on that one, I checked a bunch of translations and they all pretty much say the same “He that wins souls is wise” in direct opposition to RobM’s “There’s no such thing as soulwinning! It’s a scam.”
If by “direct opposition” you mean “totally unrelated”. My position stands and has been unaddressed by either proof text attempted.
“I completely agree with your analysis of James 5:20, I kinda threw that on there for good luck.” Translation: “I’m totally ignorant, and figured the rest of you are too, so I can say whatever the heck I want, right?”
Well done, tool.
“Now onto to the Proverbs verse, can’t really go along with you on that one, I checked a bunch of translations and they all pretty much say the same “He that wins souls is wise†in direct opposition to RobM’s “There’s no such thing as soulwinning! It’s a scam.—
This may be the most unintelligent rebuttal in the history of argumentation.
I’d quit the interwebs if I were you, tool.
name calling blows. He’s treated both of those passages in ways that can only be described as FUBAR though.
The name-calling is a substitute for the eye-popping rage his inanity invokes. The dude with the German name above handed him the most glorious textual smack down I’ve ever seen, and he’s still clueless. Provoking a response is, however, proving more satisfying than argumentation.
Let me see if I can’t get even you two brain surgeons to understand this, I’ll type slow for both of you.
God’s Word: “He that winneth souls is wise.
RobM’s word: “There’s no such thing as soulwinning! It’s a scam.”
I was willing to let it drop. You must know the longer you keep it going the more foolish you look.
You have no defense, because there is no defense.
“I was willing to let it drop. You must know the longer you keep it going the more foolish you look.”
If you were privy to the irony here, you’d likely cancel your Juno dial-up service.
You would do well to look up “irony” in the nearest dictionary.
um……
Trolling is a art, greg.
You are correct, and you have it down pat.
This is America; almost everyone has heard the born again sales pitch. It’s like asking an American if he has ever heard about television. Selling salvation in America is like selling ice to the Eskimos.
Dontcha know? They will know we are Christians by our wet, black shoes with our wet, white socks as we go door-to-door leaving our crap on your door? 🙄
Saturday afternoon (once I finally got up) I found a tract on my doorstep from a local Assemblies of God church – one of those “What if you had been there?” 9/11 tracts apparently printed on 9/12. Kinda surprised to see that from an AoG church. For the record, I don’t think they knocked or rang the bell. Me and some friends coined this “drive-by tracting.” No doubt fundies consider this a legitimate form of “soulwinning.”
If men from the church go door to door,isn’t it worth it if one soul gets saved? Is this all you’ve got? Not much!!
first?
We in the Church of Christ I went to did “door-knocking”–knocking on doors inviting people to church, Bible study,etc. I hated it also. But you weren’t considered “spiritual” if you didn’t do it.
Sorry, still trying to get used to “leave a reply to”. That comment was meant to go to Emily.
Second. You’re first
THIRD!!!
😀 I’ve finally accomplished something at least somewhat worthwhile today. Now to conquer the position of being first. What to do, what to do…
You played like a champion out there today! Get some rest, got another big game Monday (unless there’s a surprise post before then)
LOL
God commands us to make disciples, not go soul-winning.
Amen, Polished.
one year for our anniversary sunday (“homecoming”), the church printed up their own tracts, complete with a HUGE typo: Camp Creek Captist Church. it made me die a little inside to wedge those in people’s doors.
A better typo than Homecuming!
dropping off flyers is considered soul winning?
If it’s in the rain, Yes. Anything remotely connected to spreading the gospel is soulwinning in their eyes.
To call my dad socially awkward would be incredibly understating the case to criminal proportions. He just LOVES to not only leave tracts for waitresses, will spend a good 5 minutes interrupting 6 or 7 other people’s meals to hand them tracts as well.
God, RobM, I can totally relate. Not only did my father leave tracts, but he was an ass to the wait-staff, and a lousy tipper, to boot.
Wait, I have a half brother somewhere? 🙂
I always have to leave a tip anytime I’m anywhere with Dad. Although I prefer those times be rare & few.
I feel your pain!
I thought that, too. This is like the same thing the pizza delivery people and the Chinese food people do – leaving propoganda in doorways so it will be thrown away. Soulwinning schmoulwinning.
Our church was apparently picky on that one. It would be called canvassing. Just inviting people was inviting. Getting kids on the bus was bus calling. The term soulwinning was reserved for when you actually harassed -er- presented someone with their version of the gospel. Our pastor would sometimes criticize people for only going canvassing, bus calling, or inviting people on Saturdays instead of soulwinning during his sermons.
I used to dread soulwinning and cringe every time someone answered the door. I’m not very extroverted and wasn’t too good at approaching strangers, therefore didn’t usually succeed at ‘converting’ them or bringing them to church. Somehow, if you didn’t bring 66 visitor’s on the Big Day, it was because you weren’t right with God, not because you didn’t have that natural charisma.
Best part about leaving fundyism. No soliciting.
GEORGE! ‘visitors’, not ‘visitor’s’.
I can identify with you, Emily… it was either stop going or have a nervous breakdown, so I stopped and was instantly relegated to second-class Christian because I didn’t go out on their soul-winning times.
I’m not opposed to them going out, but I do think they need to be careful that they don’t try to manipulate people into saying a prayer… think about it: are we trying to get people to cast a spell to take them to heaven by saying the “magic words”? Where in Scripture does anyone ever lead another person in prayer to be saved? All of the Scripture examples are of a believer testifying to the truth, the Holy Spirit bringing conviction, and the sinner crying out to God IN HIS OWN WORDS.
I think the idea that saying one particular set of words is either necessary or sufficient for salvation is a heresy, and a rather bizarre heresy at that.
It also smells like magic.
Abra cadabra alakazam– You’re saved!
I think the idea that saying one particular set of words is either necessary or sufficient for salvation is a heresy
Technically, I think it’s gnosticism. Although most of those magic words were intended to get you past the guards who barred the way to heaven.
“I’m going to be there whether I need an umbrella or notâ€
Now that is sufferin’ for Geezis!!!
Stuff fundies like inspired me to put a no soliciting sign up by my front door. Seriously!
Ah but any good fundy will tell you that they are not soliciting when they go door-to-door. They ain’t selling anything, what they have for you is free. A-men?
http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2010/02/not-taking-a-hint/
Serious a top 10 post of all time, possibly in all of the blog-o-sphere.
George, you know adverbs end with LY. It’s seriously, not serious! You can’t give me a break on the weekend?
George you always will have with you.
Amen, sistah. We had a pack of them invade our neighborhood a couple of years ago. After having dinner interrupted for the 4th time, I put the sign on the door. Doesn’t always work, but at least they know to expect a total bitch answering the door.
About 10-15 years ago, the Catholic diocese of Dallas put out a poster (about 11 x 17) with a luridly Catholic color picture at the top, and a message in large letters. I don’t remember the wording, but I’ll paraphrase it: “This is a Catholic household. We are perfectly happy being Catholics. If you’re trying to sell some other denomination or religion, please save your time and ours by going somewhere else.”
I don’t know if the poster had the desired effect, or served as a magnet for the more determined proselytizers, but the poster was very popular among Catholics in my part of town. I saw it on a lot of front doors and in front windows.
Our bus captain would hit those houses hardest because he said they had the best-behaved kids. 🙂
lol its not considered soliciting, im not selling anything just sharing a free gift
Definition of soliciting is “To make solicitation or petition for something desired” or “To petition persistently; importune:”
If you want them to come to your church, pray a prayer, or read a tract then you are in fact “soliciting.”
Soulwinning just like Jesus and Paul did it… 🙄
What an arrogant twit. “Just led two to the Lord…” Really? What are you going to do about discipling them? I guess he figures he got them saved because he didn’t let a “Walk-by, walk by”
(There’s one for the “The Phrase that Pays” over in the forum.)
They were not even knocking on the doors… but that would slow them down and they wouldn’t be able to post the fantastic numbers highlighting their personal accomplishments. Been there and done that.
Inviting people to church does not the Gospel make. 🙁
“My socks are wet; my shoes are wet…”
I guess he’s all wet, eh?
😀
Of course he is–he’s a Baptist. “All wet” is a requirement.
I love the way the music sounds like he’s leading out The Rebel Alliance, not littering people’s doors with a load of flyers.
Just watched it. 0:28 in, they video tape one of them tramping up to a house *WITH THE TEN COMMANDMENTS STONE TABLETS AS A YARD DECORATION*, and leave a tract! WTF?
Terrorizing 2 high school freshmen into saying a prayer wasn’t soul winning or getting anyone saved either.
What a waste of time, and I just hope the victims they recruit are few & far between.
I noticed what appears to be the stone tablets also.
When I was fundy, I used to go to even the obviously fundy houses that had the KJV scripture signs in the yard and on the car in the driveway because “Maybe they aren’t REALLY saved (because I doubt they go to my church)”. I’m so glad I’ve changed.
Was this a spoof? I can’t believe they are serious! Fake happy. Talking about ‘saving people’ on the street? Most of the way through I was laughing because I thought: ‘What a great spoof vid from Stufffundieslike.’ Then I read the comments and it is a real video! Thank God I wasn’t raised in a fake Fundy church.
It is definitely not a spoof. Darrell posted a video of the same 2 a few weeks ago.
I think it’s becoming obvious that all I’m doing today is attempting to slug through a boring U.S. History review. I’ve been going back and refreshing the page every 10 minutes.
Emily, did you ever read Howard Zinn’s “People’s History of the United States”? I think you would like it.
I met Howard Zinn once. He was a wonderful man in person.
I haven’t, but I’m open to anything that makes history more interesting. Right now I’m reading ‘The Slacker’s Guide to U.S. History’.
Eh. “People’s History” is a bad manichean fable. If you want a real subversive history, read Thaddeus Russell’s “A Renegade History of the United States.”
I grew up in a Christian home, and in (apparently progressive)Baptist church all my life (non IFB though) and I can’t recall ever hearing the term “Soul-winning” until I came across this site. Sharing the love of Jesus through your life, sure; but this hit-and-run door to door stuff was never suggested. (My fundy ex-inlaws weren’t into soul-winning. I got the feeling they thought there were ALREADY too many unworthy people weasling their way into Heaven.)
“I got the feeling they thought there were ALREADY too many unworthy people weasling their way into Heaven.”
Ha, ha!
I gather that “soul-winning” is a Jack Hyles concept. He started it in Texas and promoted it big-time in Indiana when he moved there.
Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.
Man I hate it when solocitors leave stuff on my door. It does not make me want to partake in whatever they are offering.
I reeeeally hate it when they leave stuff under my windshield wiper! 😡
I really hate it when they phone me. I don’t care if it’s supper time or not.
Especially if it’s been raining and all you end up with is a lump of pulp, the traces of which remain on your car even after you take the majority of it away. 👿
I really hate it when I tell them I have to leave now, and they attempt to take me prisoner.
I also hate going to the park and seeing the smiley face tract littered all over the benches and on the sinks in the restroom. Gah.
But, what I hate most is that I got manipulated into doing this myself. Somebody owes me a couple hundred hours of my life back.
The ones that feel like it’s OK to actually put their foot in your door when/if you open it are totally ridic! I’ve never had to deal with them, but I’ve heard people instructed to do so, and thought to my self (if anyone actually does that, I hope they get arrested).
RobM, I would SO slam their foot in the door! That’s just so rude that they would do that and not take the hint.
I’ve had the same business cards stuck in an irretrievable position in my front storm door for months. It just reminds me who NOT to call when I want to sell my gold for cash, get my taxes done, car fixed, trees cut, or whatever they’re selling. BTW, I would greatly appreciate it if the “soulwinners” in my area would wait until 10 am!
A local fundy church hit us like on our door about 2 weeks ago on a Wednesday evening about 2 hours before church. The same church has hit us before like that. Once they even prayed with us, but told us they weren’t going to ask any questions about lives. 🙄
Winning the lost can take on many forms. Some are very good at winning a complete stranger at their door but some are not good at that. But they may be good at putting a tract on a door, or inviting a co-worker, or inviting a friend or family member. Others may not be good at inviting people at all but they may be good at giving the gospel in a Sunday School lesson or leading someone to Christ after church.
The point is that everyone has unique talents and abilities. Door to door soulwinning is not for everyone and we should not criticize those who do not do it or do not do it well. Maybe they are not lazy or backslidden. Maybe they just need to find where their talents are.
Paradigm shift time. There’s no such thing as soul winning! It’s a scam. They didn’t save anyone, and probably haven’t lead a single person to Jesus. Lame (probably exaggerated or invented) anecdotes not withstanding.
Very good point. They were passing out tracts. Call it what it is.
My old church called it witnessing or evangelism. But the idea was to ‘plant seeds’ by finding those interested in Bible studies or answering questions. We believed that the heart, not the words were what was important.
At least back then. From what I’ve seen and heard, they 😥 have changed.
Jason B – Well put, again. Not all of us are cut out to go door to door, but I appreciate these guys efforts for the kingdom of God, and far be it from me to say they didn’t lead some young guys to the Lord.
RobM – You have been flying all over the place once again baffling us with your, well, maybe I better not say, but anyway, apparently I am here to keep you from completely leaving earth’s orbit.
God did not leave you in charge until he gets back. You said “There’s no such thing as soul winning” Open mouth insert foot. The bible (God’s Word) says that “He that winneth souls is wise” Proverbs 11:30 also “Let him know that he that converteth a sinner from the error of his ways, will save a soul from death and hide a multitude of sins” James 5:20 – You may consider winning souls useless, but as I understand God’s Word, it appears He looks at it quite differently.
It says “he that winneth souls” and “he that converteth a sinner” not “he that goeth out and knocketh on doors on Saturday AM” or even “he that passeth out tracts” or even “he that presenteth the gospel”.
“winneth souls” and “converteth a sinner” means a something totally different for me now than when I was a fundy.
JJ – Not quite sure how to respond. My response was to RobM’s direct quote “There’s no such thing as soulwinning! It’s a scam.”
So wake up and smell the coffee. I don’t believe I “knocked” on your door, in fact I wasnt even in your neighborhood.
My apologies, greg. 🙁 Apparently that verse is a big trigger for me! It irks me when people use it to defend door-to-door salesman style evangelism as though that’s all “winning souls” could mean, and I must have misunderstood the “door” you were “knocking” on. Sorry! 😳
JJ – No worries 😎
Dear greg, I’d like to leave a comment in keeping with the spirit of the ones you left above:
“You’re a tool.”
OK, have a nice day, now.
Mark Thomas -I’m not sure what you are but your comment tells us quite abit about the level of your intelligence, and maturity level.
Come to think of it I thought you had to be at least 16 to post here.
Nice to see how little it takes you to devolve. It’s always fun knocking on your door, tool.
Mark Thomas – Speaking of devolving, you roll in here 3 days after the dust-up being another blogging tough guy, and get smacked down, then you want to cry about someone “devolving”
I’ll give you credit, you are pretty funny, pathetic, but funny.
Blog trolling on a weekend? “Crying”? I wish I could give you points for originality, but since the best you can do is a bogus motive assignment and a fabricated emotional invocation (which, let’s admit, are two of the oldest cards in the game), I have to go with my initial assessment: “Quit the interwebs.”
They are as welcome as telemarketers. I am as suspicious of door to door ones as I am of those on the phone.
“What’s the scam?”
You are seriously trying to tell me that the Book of Proverbs was written to the Mt Calvary Independent Fundamental Baptist Church that went door to door witnessing to all their Jewish neighbors? That’s what you’re going to tell me Provers 11:30 means?
Yeah, I’m the one that has left the planet.
Sonofagun. I just bit the idiotic troll bait again didn’t I? That poor poor job of intentionally twisting scripture pissed me off, and I should’ve known better than to just ignore, and I failed. Dang.
And the award for biggest hair splitter this side of the Mississippi goes to RobM, he has never, ever been in a situation that he couldn’t use semantics to get out of. Go ahead and feed the troll, you are the one that has come against the living Word of God, and guess what, for all your bloviating you know it too.
Now settle down and take your meds.
Greg, the Proverbs strophe that you quote is a real bugaboo, with the plainest translation of the second line being “he who takes lives is wisdom.” The word tranlated in KJV as “wins” is laqah’ – the same word is used for men taking women as wives, e.g., David taking Abigail as his wife after the death of Nabal. The Biblical usage of laqah’ “Wins” appears a tertiary meaning at best. The word which was translated “souls” in the KJV, nephesh, has a broad range of meaning from literal physical lives to the blessings of the good life. Recall also that the phrase “Tree of Life” causes us to look back to Genesis and the tree whose fruit sustains, apparently forever. Given the agricultural metaphor suggested by fruit and tree, a better translation of nephesh might be “pluck” or “pick” – gathering the fruit of a tree. This would make 11:30 in English: “The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and wise is the one who gathers that good life.” So a wise man produces the good life, a life of God’s blessings; the wise man’s life then becomes a bounty for others. Many may argue that this is not a particularly “spiritual” or “Godly” reading of this verse, but this reads a lot like the context of Proverbs 11, where the lifestyles of the wise and disobedient are so often contrasted.
As for James, I am surprised that “once-saved, always saved” denominations don’t treat this verse with more circumspection. The surface reading here might lead one to conclude that there are those in the church which a) are unsaved and b) can be saved by the intercession of another believer with the consequent moral reform. First, this isn’t at all a good verse to use to promote door-to-door evangelism, since it begins with, “Are any among you (the brethren)…” This phrase is used by James to indicate the need of members of the church in this chapter – this is the thrid such construction. Also, the notion that human intervention (leading the sinner away from the error of his way) can save people is a direct denial of the saving grace of faith in Christ. If all we needed to be saved was someone willing to lead us back to a course of moral reform, then the blood of Christ is useless. That means that the “psyche” of James 5:20 is more literally “life,” and the salvation referred to is saving a believer from the consequences of a life of disobedience, which James and th other early Church fathers clearly connected with early death, sickness, and so forth.
This is not to say that we are not to go forth and make disciples – that we are commanded to do. How IFB (and other sects) soul-winning efforts would stack up as discipleship-making is a subject for another day.
Der_Berater – I responded but it ended up down at the bottom of the thread.
Owned, tool.
Mark Thomas – You had better hurry up and get to school, your 8th grade science teacher is worried about you.
i totally agree with you on that 🙂
You make it sound like they are selling something. This 1,2,3 pray after me business doesn’t get anyone saved.
Why is it fundies are so fond of the repeat-a-prayer? Isn’t salvation personal?
With fundies, religion is far more important than relationship.
My reply was supposed to be to JasonB. I even hit the “reply” button. So is replying more complicated than that? :p
You have to double check before your comment that “Leave a reply to:________” is who you are replying to. Sometimes the “REPLY” button does not catch who it is for and you just have “Leave a Reply.” In fact, you may have to refresh the page in order to get it to say you are replying to a specific person.
(george taught me that trick) 😀
OK, question for you all. I saw hundreds if not thousands of “salvations” in our church’s stats during my time in fundyland.
Roughly 10% of those people were willing to get baptized (if even that amount — I’m being generous).
I never, ever saw anyone who got “saved” through door-to-door soulwinning get baptized and stick around for more than a month or two. Bus calling, yes. Soulwinning, no.
Is this pretty much the same experience as most of you?
It’s how my mom became a fundy, but I do think the percentage is quite low.
It happens, but I don’t think soulwinning is a particularly strong piece of marketing in the fundy play book.
Well since you asked, my mom and dad were saved through the neighborhood church’s outreach, it was a Baptist church, although not an IFB, I have a sill sitter that I can see from where I am typing this comment, of that church. I will forever be grateful for those faithful folks that came knocking on our door some 60 years ago, and yes they will be rewarded in heaven for their faithfulness.
Hmmm…maybe the trouble was just because of the area where I went to church? We had no one “stick” from soulwinning efforts, just bus calling and invitations from friends and family.
JJ – I don’t think its a very high “success” rate with the door to door evangelism either. As many have pointed out the a,b,c, 1,2,3, repeat after me, is simply not a “valid” or “biblical” way to evangelize, in my opinion. An insincere prayer said anywhere does not save. I’ll go a step further, the prayer doesn’t save, Jesus Saves!
The regular IFB way of door to door soul winning is probably not the best way to evangelize, I don’t like to judge others, but I would go so far as to say it is woefully inadequate.
However I believe it is fine to get out in their communities and invite folks to their church.
Greg, praise the Lord those folks did faithfully preach the Gospel to your folks. Thankfully it does sometimes lead to folks coming to know the Lord as it did with them, & obviously it influenced you too, since you know Him as well. To God be the Glory. Yes, there are certainly excesses, but I’m thankful for those that love the Lord enough to go that way.
Your estimates are very generous. In the last IFB church the number was close to zero. They would stay for a couple weeks, get the hint of crazy, and then leave.
Three comments by Greg today:
“You have been flying all over the place once again baffling us with your, well, maybe I better not say, but anyway, apparently I am here to keep you from completely leaving earth’s orbit.”
“And the award for biggest hair splitter this side of the Mississippi goes to RobM, he has never, ever been in a situation that he couldn’t use semantics to get out of. Go ahead and feed the troll, you are the one that has come against the living Word of God, and guess what, for all your bloviating you know it too.”
“Now settle down and take your meds.”
“I don’t like to judge others.”
No, obviously not.
I think you fell for the same trap of thinking there’s a coherent belief system at work. Abusing Provers 11:30 to justify door knocking disproves that! 🙂
It’s just too easy, and so awfully futile.
Well I am delighted that you took notice of a snivelling servant such as I, oh great one, and to be judged by you is only right and proper for thou hast superiour knowledge about who is foolish and arrogant, and all biblical subjects, as you have told everyone near and far. I should have known better than to have ever had lit a candle when thou hast lit the entire blog with thy mighty and knowing and brilliant light. Forgive me oh great one!
Big Gary – One things for sure, you can never complain about a fundy taking something out of context as long as Darrell leaves this post up.
Sunday Challenge:
What would Brother Greg’s posts be like if he DID judge people?
Sunday Treat: Allow Big Gary to pontificate on any subject that he deems appropriate, he knows what we all neeed. He knows who is arrogant, who is ignorant, and can’t stand folks that he deems are ignorant to feign that ignorance about their arrogance. Don’t believe me, just read his posts.
He knows all things and judges all things, Hail to the great theologian SFL King!
How stupid of me, Big Gary does that everyday!
BG, wouldn’t we just be quoting posts for that challenge?
New definition of “pontificating”: Quoting something word-for-word.
That is how my parents entered fundystan.
I’m going to refer all the stories about how many the MOG “saved” to the post on “I Love to Tell the Story” song. Either these guys are flat out lying to inflate their near worthless values, or they are over lapping some serious numbers, or the whole world is secretly Christian, or people really do get saved multiple times, or I don’t know what else. I’ve been hearing these same Jack Hyles wannabe stories my whole life. If there was a shred of genuine truth to any of these, the world would be a different place. As it is, I think the world is only slightly different and very full of stories.
I think there is a 180 degree difference between so called soulwinning and making disciples of those whom the Lord has prepared to hear and respond to the Gospel.
Soulwinning is a hit-n-run drive by approach to God marketing and is dependent on the works of people. Making disciples begins with God preparing the witness and the hearer. If getting someone to say the prayer is soulwinning then you can have it.
How will someone answer to God for that? “Lord, I got 1,000 people to say the sinners prayer.” How many of those will think they are saved right up to the time they hear Matthew Chapter 7 ringing in their ears… “Depart from me, I never knew you.”
I just get so tired of the “Hey, come to church and listen to our hired gun preach the gospel” approach to witnessing. That we may be the first line of the Gospel for them. May others see Christ in me, and may I be able to give them a reason for the hope that is in me.
Leaving tracts may be all you can do but don’t make a video of it and call it soulwinning.
Well said.
We are told that people noticed the first-century Christians because of their love, and asked them to explain “the hope that was in (them),” not that they went door-to-door pestering their neighbors.
I just went from here to Facebook where someone had this quote. Seems like a lot of folks on the receiving end of “soulwinning” could say this: “I’ve never fooled anyone. I’ve let people fool themselves. They didn’t bother to find out who and what I was. Instead they would invent a character for me. I wouldn’t argue with them. They were obviously loving somebody I wasn’t.” -Marilyn Monroe
We used the word Visitation as a catch-all term for the various soulwinning activities.
I never could understand why the churches that I was a member of all had visitation on Thursday evenings and Saturday mornings.
People do not want to answer their door after dark. They do not like to be disturbed on Saturdays either.
Ah, Boeke Road. Been there several times. Slept in their parking lot in a bus more than once. I’ve met Stephen. Friends with his dad, Ed, who runs a recording studio (Faith Music Missions). Their church pianist, David Chamberlain, can play absolutely anything – extremely talented guy. (The music at the end was Ed, his wife, and David – they have a pretty good gospel trio.) If you ever want to do a case study in what Contemporary Fundamentalist Music sounds like, that’s where you need to go.
All that said, genuinely nice people, if a little…um…intense. Don’t think I’d want to attend there on a regular basis but I always had a blast when I visited.
Anyway, I didn’t see much soulwinning on that video. I saw a lot of putting flyers in doors, and if that’s what passes as “soulwinning” these days it’s no wonder you can’t get anyone excited about it anymore. (Incidentally, I gave up door-to-door loooooong ago. Like any ill-conceived method it’s bound to work every now and then, but I’m of the mind that the discipleship process is better served by spending time with someone at a coffee shop or ball field building a relationship so that discipleship can occur. Very few IFB churches have any sort of discipleship program; most are content with getting someone to make a profession and the discipleship is kinda rolled up in the Sunday morning sermons and a monthly drop-in by a deacon.)
That whole Home Alone thing at 2:20 is the same reaction I had to this whole video 😀
Did a church planting program once and it went like this, If you call 10,000 people with a spiel you will get 1000 interested. Out of that you will get 100 to attend. This will work with almost anything, a church, a chicken fight or mud wrestling (your percentage may be higher with the mud wrestling). That’s basically what modern soul winning is.
Marketing 101. Some of the logical ones will say you are right. That’s why we need to do it, for the 100 that attend and the one that may join. It’s just like amway or any other pyramid scheme.
Based on my experiences with marketing various things (church programs among them), I’d say those percentages are way high. Even for mud-wrestling and chicken fights, which are inherently an easier sell.
To get that kind of response, you’d have to get the mailing list for the Valley Chicken Fighters Association, and target your flyers, phone calls, and visits to them. Even then, if you had lousy chickens in your ring, the 100 responders would never come back for a second visit.
We had 49 with 7000 contacts
I’m a little curious about this. Not skeptical, just curious.
49 what? New members? People visiting the church? People who accepted tracts, or answered the phone when you called?
And what kind of contact was made to those 7000? Was is a mailing, personal visit, leaving a flyer on their doors (as in this video), phone call, or something else?
Here is how it works. Cold call with a spiel and try to get them to accept information in the mail for the chicken fight. Out of 7000 cold call you get 700 to accept the information on a new chicken fight in town. A week before the big fight you follow up with another invitation and a phone call. 50 people show up for the fight. What you do from there is up to you. Maybe they like it and want to go for the championship bout and bring their friends. Maybe you flop
oh, and initial contact is telemarketer style
Now compare that to X Church prints 10,000 anniversary tracts etc etc
Whoever is not against Jesus is for Him; so, I would have to say that, in some way, people could come to know Jesus through this type of evangelism. But, I question the type of growth that comes from the fundy system. In the news yesterday, another pastor from a fundy church went to jail for child abuse. Considering abuse case after abuse case within their circle and the neurotic type theology that comes with it, I don’t know if I could give the guys my endorsement as giving the true Gospel to people. I don’t know- are people commanded to do something they were never given authority to do?
I think people take a couple stories from the Bible and assume that all soulwinning must be done that way. Two examples are 1) Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch – he explains Scripture to him and the man immediately believes and 2) the Phillipian jailer – he asks Paul and Silas how to be saved and he too immediately believes. So the door-to-door salvation salesmen keep waiting for people to do the same thing. The difference is that neither Philip nor Paul were going door to door in these stories; rather, God providentially placed them in those situations. Also both the Ethiopian and the jailer already had their hearts prepared by the Spirit to receive the Word: the eunuch was reading Scripture and the jailer saw prisoners live through an earthquake and not escape.
I wish more Christians would take Jesus’ own example as a guide: He spent three years with a select group of men, discipling them. We are to be instant in season and out of season ready to tell the Gospel when the Spirit prompts, but we are also to get involved in someone’s life and show them love. This can be much more of a sacrifice than giving an hour or two a week to knock on stranger’s doors; this means denying your inclination to flop on a couch in front of the TV and instead plan a BBQ and invite the neighbors over. Daily discipleship takes discipline, effort, and self-denial. No wonder some just hand out a tract and say, “Come to our church.”
PW – As always thoughtful, biblical insight. When God opens that door we need to be ready and willing to walk through it. Someone once said “No one cares how much you know, until they know how much you care” I think this can be readily applied to witnessing. If someone merely knocks on a door and starts preaching at them, how have you demonstrated that you care about them? Someone on SFL said something that sort of stuck with me a few posts ago, that when you just randomly knock doors or stop people on the street, you are treating them as an object.
It struck me the other day, why many, not just IFB’s get stuck on the 1,2,3 repeat after me evangelization plan, and it goes against alot of the folks’ theology that post here. The bible tells us that we must “call upon the Lord” for our salvation, this is something that must be “done” by the person themselves, according to the scriptures, so fundies set as their goal to get as many as they can to “call” which translates to them as “say a prayer”
Btw, God’s plan for salvation of folks, and how they get saved and how the Holy Spirit moves across this planet and touches peoples hearts, is still very mysterious to me, I only have His Spirit and the Word of God to go by, and I try to do the best I can.
Excellent points, & well-said, PW. I agree Greg, it is mysterious to me as well, & Jesus told us it would be in John 3. God Bless.
I only recently learned about tracts, and went through a period of reading them on the net. They’re pretty hilarious, because they’re soooo bad.
Maybe people aren’t aware of this fact, but tracts are mostly used to poke fun at christians. (the only time i’ve ever heard of them..) If someone finds one on their car, they might just save it show their friends and have a good laugh at it. That’s not including the people that would just go into a rage.
Among people who love irony, Jack Chick is a rock star. For every person who reads his tracts and believes them, there are probably 100 who read them (and many collect them) because they are so over-the-top paranoid that they’re entertaining, as long as you don’t take them seriously. Some of them are so hallucinatory that they’re a cheap substitute for LSD.
The same thing goes for a lot of other tracts, but Chick is the bankable name in those circles.
chick tracts were exactly what I was thinking about. I went to their website and read through a bunch, hilarious.
Thankfully, it is extremely unlikely that I will ever have a fundy “soul winner” at my door. In a city of over 330,000, there is one IFB church and judging by the photo on their website only have a dozen or two attendees.
Door to Door soulwinning is as antiquated as door to door vacuum/knife/book salesfolks. It worked in the past when this was an accepted form of sales, but is shunned today.
Leave it to the fundys to stick with 1950s style sales along with clothing, culture, etc…
Der_Berater – I completely agree with your analysis of James 5:20, I kinda threw that on there for good luck, yes its clearly speaking to someone, a believer, that has gotten caught up in something that they shouldn’t be, and a fellow christian brother is pointing this out to them. Of course this would still apply as it relates to my response to RobM. Now onto to the Proverbs verse, can’t really go along with you on that one, I checked a bunch of translations and they all pretty much say the same “He that wins souls is wise” in direct opposition to RobM’s “There’s no such thing as soulwinning! It’s a scam.”
If by “direct opposition” you mean “totally unrelated”. My position stands and has been unaddressed by either proof text attempted.
“I completely agree with your analysis of James 5:20, I kinda threw that on there for good luck.” Translation: “I’m totally ignorant, and figured the rest of you are too, so I can say whatever the heck I want, right?”
Well done, tool.
“Now onto to the Proverbs verse, can’t really go along with you on that one, I checked a bunch of translations and they all pretty much say the same “He that wins souls is wise†in direct opposition to RobM’s “There’s no such thing as soulwinning! It’s a scam.—
This may be the most unintelligent rebuttal in the history of argumentation.
I’d quit the interwebs if I were you, tool.
name calling blows. He’s treated both of those passages in ways that can only be described as FUBAR though.
The name-calling is a substitute for the eye-popping rage his inanity invokes. The dude with the German name above handed him the most glorious textual smack down I’ve ever seen, and he’s still clueless. Provoking a response is, however, proving more satisfying than argumentation.
Let me see if I can’t get even you two brain surgeons to understand this, I’ll type slow for both of you.
God’s Word: “He that winneth souls is wise.
RobM’s word: “There’s no such thing as soulwinning! It’s a scam.”
I was willing to let it drop. You must know the longer you keep it going the more foolish you look.
You have no defense, because there is no defense.
“I was willing to let it drop. You must know the longer you keep it going the more foolish you look.”
If you were privy to the irony here, you’d likely cancel your Juno dial-up service.
You would do well to look up “irony” in the nearest dictionary.
um……
Trolling is a art, greg.
You are correct, and you have it down pat.
This is America; almost everyone has heard the born again sales pitch. It’s like asking an American if he has ever heard about television. Selling salvation in America is like selling ice to the Eskimos.
Dontcha know? They will know we are Christians by our wet, black shoes with our wet, white socks as we go door-to-door leaving our crap on your door? 🙄
Saturday afternoon (once I finally got up) I found a tract on my doorstep from a local Assemblies of God church – one of those “What if you had been there?” 9/11 tracts apparently printed on 9/12. Kinda surprised to see that from an AoG church. For the record, I don’t think they knocked or rang the bell. Me and some friends coined this “drive-by tracting.” No doubt fundies consider this a legitimate form of “soulwinning.”
If men from the church go door to door,isn’t it worth it if one soul gets saved? Is this all you’ve got? Not much!!
Ha! I’m way ahead of you there “Jamie”
http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2010/05/outcome-based-justification/
(seriously though, are you the pastor’s kid or what?)
Odd… My fundy church’s anniversary was March 6, 2011 as well.
Stephan likes boys. Trust me on this. 😳