204 thoughts on “Getting Em’ Young”

  1. and no, I’m not against children’s ministries.

    What I’m against is manipulation via high-pressure sales tactics to push a bunch of eight-year olds to “get saved” a dozen times apiece.

    I’ve worked at a fundy camp. The “salvation mill” approach is obscene.

    1. Mercy. Yes, I’ve been there: CEF, and Bible Club Movement. But, Darrell, aren’t they considered “evangelical?” My dad grumbled all the time because they were non-denom.

      1. Yes, they were nondenom but also very widely used in some fundy circles over the last couple decades.

        1. I worked with CEF for a year. I didn’t really enjoy it – mainly cuz kids work wasn’t my thing as a 23 yr old. I worked with a CEF group in one of the poorest areas of Chicago – which altered the typical white, fundy approach. The weekly meetings were held in the the home of a lady who had opened her home to CEF for over 30 years! Every week kids with parents in jail and virtually no access to get out of the projects would come into her basement for CEF meetings. That part was kind of cool. But she never came down…she stayed in her kitchen and peeled potatoes. It was kind of wack. So is the wordless book – no where in the bible is sin referred to as black. Good times.

      1. Right, because the non-denoms can’t possibly get it right. You need to be willing to slap your grandma in order to be truly biblical.

  3. I worked with Child Evangelism Fellowship a few times here in Northern Ireland. Alls sorts of people from all kinds of Churches were part of the team I worked with. I enjoyed it and the work did bear fruit and a number of children came to know Christ in a real way. Maybe “manipulation via high-pressure sales tactics” is a particularly American Fundy thing, but we were warned not to put any pressure on the children to “get saved”. We presented the Gospel and let God do the rest. and He did.

    1. I get that CEF isn’t a fundy organization per se, but for a period of time they were very popular in fundy circles. If you read that page through the lens of how fundy churches do business when it comes to “soulwinning,” , it’s easy to see how it leads to some pretty unethical behavior.

      Elsewhere with different groups of people, your mileage may vary.

  4. Yes, I see how the “salvation mill” can get cranked up to full production. Jesus, or the Early Church never regarded people as Gospel Fodder to be processed according to the right Standard Opperating Procedure, but as individual people with brains of their own and an ability to make choices. Spiritual Blackmail should not be part of the Gospel.

  5. PS Even young children can make their own choices. That ability is often knocked out of the Fundy very quickly

  8. That remark about how children will believe anything went against my grain. Yes, it is easier to make someone a fundy early in life before their brains develop the ability to make reasoned decisions!

    And I particularly like the “age of accountability” being dependent on intellect and background. So is there a chart somewhere that lists the age of accountability for each race, socioeconomic group, and mental ability? And are the ages of accountability ranked in a linear fashion or on a bell curve?

    1. You are right, Rose. Children absolutely can and do hear from the Holy Spirit, and are more than capable of understanding, and embracing the spiritual truths that they hear from him.

    3. I could be wrong, but I don’t think CEF was attempting to make fundies of the children, I think their mission is to bring the gospel to the children.

      1. no, I think fundies would like to make fundies of children.

        The CEF philosophy just helps them to that end.

    4. The age of accountability is a bit ridiculous. It is saying that there are 2 ways of salvation. One way is be young/ignorant enough. The other way is Jesus.

  9. CEF teachers (at least in the past) and evangelists, etc, also LOVE to count the number of “decisions for Christ” made (whether or not the child actually understood what they were doing). “We had 50 hands raised for salvation every night this week.” (i.e. they don’t mention it was pretty much the same scared children each night.) If evangelists counted decisions every time I prayed the sinner’s prayer as a child, it would have numbered in the thousands!

    1. I taught CEF clubs one summer when I was a teenager. I remember one time when the local CEF director was visiting our club, and a couple of boys came forward at the end of the meeting when we gave the invitation, and the boys were giggling the whole time we were trying to talk and pray with them. The director was helping out, and I remember him rather sternly asking the boys whether they knew what they were doing. He very clearly had his doubts that they were genuine. But they insisted they were, so he listed them as decisions; but I got the impression he would have preferred knowing they were geniune decisions.

    1. Never thought of it that way, Natalie. But, the Nazis were evil, right? And the nice adults who force and more often bribe children to make a decision aren’t anything like that. Right? ;~

    2. when I was a kid, deep into fundy land, I checked out a book at my *gasp* public library. It was a true accounting of a Hitler Youth, written for the young reader. Yeah, it was an eye opener, those Awana meetings were always creepy, but even creepier after I read that book.

    3. Our ex-church fundy pastor would actually quote Hitler whose aim was to indoctrinate before the age of five. According to him, Hitler knew that it is best to “reach” them in the preschool years, because they would more likely be loyal for a lifetime. Hence, our church goal was to “reach” the preschoolers as well. Creepy. What was so distribing to me throughout my years in fundyland was the blatant bypassing of the parent in so many instances. Again…creepy.

    4. It strikes me as inherently unethical to try to get a child to commit to a doctrine at an age when “he will believe ANYTHING” (emphasis in original).

      I feel the same way about Mother Teresa’s practice (by her own account) of baptising dying (sometimes even unconscious) people in her hospices. I’m fairly certain that very few of these people, most of whom were Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, etc. when they entered the hospice, had any idea what was going on, nor did many of them have any desire to add to the number of souls Mother T. could claim she had won for Jesus.

      1. The Mother Teresa practice comes close to, but doesn’t reach, the presumption of the Mormons, who actually baptise dead people into their church. When someone converts to Mormonism, the LDS church re-marries all their dead ancestors as Mormons (that’s why they have a large, and famous, geneology database).
        I’ve told all my younger relatives that if they ever try to make me a Mormon after I’ve shucked off this mortal coil (or, now that I’m married, if they mess with my marriage once I’m gone), I will be sure to haunt them and make their lives miserable. I don’t know if I’ll be able to make good on this threat (and I hope there will be no need for it), but I mean it very sincerely.

        1. I’ve been into geneaology for a long time, and I’m grateful to the Mormons for their huge database, but in reality, about 20% of it is wrong. I’ve always been amused at the prospect of some of the departed arriving at the pearly gates to be greeted by their “spouse,” and each of them demanding, “Who the h*ll are you?”

  11. I hate when people use that verse to say there’s an age of accountability. David is a human being. He has no idea where his dead baby went.

    nicodemusatnite.com

    2. JC – I’m also a human being, and I also know exactly where David’s precious, little baby went, just as David knew where it went.

    3. It seems to me that David is actually saying he has no idea where his baby went, but that wherever the child is now, he’s not coming back here. What that has to do with the age of accountability, I don’t know.

      1. Is it possible that he was referring to the baby physically rather than spiritually? He knew his baby was in the graveyard, and he knew he would be there himself one day. Maybe that’s all he meant.

        1. Donna, that sounds about right. One shouldn’t read later understandings of heaven and hell into the words of David, as the ancient Hebrew concept of the afterlife was a bit different…

        2. You’re right Donna. Concepts of heaven and hell developed later during second temple Judaism. The verse means that there was no bringing the child back so it was time to move on.

  12. Group manipulation is more effective with kids because if you can get just one or two who are super sensitive, you can guit them into conming to the (so called) altar and the others will follow like falling dominos. An voila’, instant revival! The (so called) altar is filled and the M-O-g’s ego is stroked! Meeting a Success!
    *and another generation of “Altar Atheletes” is born.*

    The Independent Fundamental Borg are hard for a child, who wants to fit in, to resist. Once this programming is initiated their journey towards the dark-side has begun.

    1. Couldn’t help the Star Trek reference, could you? 😉

      Hey, I went through puberty with the hugest crush on Wil Wheaton. I mean, huge. I still have my autographed photo, and that’s all I’m gonna say.

    2. Who is susceptible? As you said, the super-sensitive child, the child who wants to fit in, the child who follows the crowd — and only God knows if the children are really following Him. It’s sad to think of lots of little plants sprung up from the seeds planted, but dying out because there was no root.

      How many of these children have become disciples of Christ who follow Him or did they only “pray a prayer”?

      1. PW, I’m not defending this kind of manipulation by any means. But God is powerful enough to redeem even this.

        I went to AWANA when I was a little kid in Sparks. Prayed the sinner’s prayer, too. Later, when I was 10, I was truly converted (under the ministry of Chuck Cofty, of all the uber-fundy guys). I may be wrong, but I believe the Holy Spirit was pursuing me at AWANA and pursued me through Cofty and continues to bring me out of fundamentalism and closer to God.

        Again, I’m not defending this, any more than I would defend Joseph’s brothers for selling him into slavery. But God meant it for good and will perform His promises. Be encouraged, some of those seeds stay dormant and flourish at the right time rather than sprouting and withering. It is good to speak against manipulation. But don’t wring your hands that children already exposed to this have no hope (which you probably weren’t, I’m just saying). God is ABLE!! 😀

        1. @FundyUnderDuress, you’re right! God is good, He is Almighty, He is faithful! He works through flawed human vessels, and He is still glorified. Thank you for your reminder that God is in control!

    4. And then you will be reminded, 10 years later, that when you were in junior camp you filled out a paper pledging not to listen to rock music. All the decisions I made in camps make me feel guilty today, because I’m very big on people keeping their word, and I didn’t there.

      1. And later Bill Gothard will do the same number on you by manipulating a vow from you that you will spend at least 15 minutes a day in Bible study and prayer.

      2. The only way I can view it is that the OT seems to say that people were responsible as adults at 21. For example, adults older than 21 died in the desert after agreeing with the 10 spies who were too scared to go into the Promised Land; it was those younger than 21 who grew up and went in to claim the land.

        I don’t think it’s right to manipulate children who are often immature and sheltered and ignorant of life into making promises that a certain group of people think are godly: “I promise I’ll never wear pants! I promise I’ll never read any version but the KJV!” Yay for the adult who has studied the issues and decided that skirts are required or the KJV is most accurate, but it’s intellectually and spiritually unfair to not let a child grow up and also make those discoveries for themselves (of course, if they do, they might come to different conclusions, and that’s why the grown-ups want to try to force decisions on kids who aren’t ready to make those choices.)

        In 8th or 9th grade, I was given a booklet that had me “lay down a foundation stone or boundary lines” in every conceivable area: clothing, movies, dating, etc. I remember writing down that I would never attend an R-rated movie. Of course I thought that! I’d never even been to any movies at all! When your parents taught you that movie theaters were evil (which I questioned), at least they were probably right about R-rated movies, right? And certainly they would have been wrong for me at age 13. But as an adult?

        I’m sensitive about being true to my word too, but I don’t think it’s ethical to influence highly sheltered children who are tender-hearted about pleasing God into making decisions the ADULTS want them to make. That’s bondage.

      3. Emily, pledges you made before you reached the age of reason are dead letters. They do not obligate you in any way, morally or otherwise.
        There’s a reason you have to be at least 18 to enter into a contract.

      4. This happened to me too! Only it wasn’t rock music … but it took me YEARS to come to the belief that I wasn’t going to be struck by lightning for going back on my “vow” I was manipulated into at age 10-11, when I didn’t know any better.

    5. I think I covered my loathing of CEF over in the forum on my Meet and Greet posting. My children were manipulated into saying the “sinful” prayer after the senior class )at the IFB school they were attending at the time) was tasked with soulwinning the lower grades. So the seniors took a poll (raised hands) “who wasn’t saved?”, then “who wanted to be saved?” (again raised hands) then dealt with the individuals one-on-one using a CEF tract. They read it together. “Do you want to be saved?” Say this prayer: “Prest-o Change-o alakazam!” Now you are saved! Sign and date this tract…
      Welcome to the Club! You’ll soon be getting your KJV secret decoder ring and your official IFB membership card good at all participating outlets for special amounts of guilt, pressure, rules and religious psychosis to last you a lifetime.

    2. Too funny, I also knew a guy at my former fundy church who was a director at CEF. His tool of the trade was magic…christian magic.

    3. Heh heh. “Take my hand out of your back.” ❓

      “Tomorrow: Christian clowns.”
      Two of the creepiest, and least ethical, ministers I’ve ever dealt with were heavily into “clown ministry.”
      Clowns creeped me out even before those experiences, but my encounters with “clown ministry” did not make me any more favorably disposed toward the grease-painted freaks.

    1. for me, when I hear “Evangelical” I hear “fundy-lite.” I also stay far, far away.

  17. At Christian camp I was told: “What if Jesus comes tonight? We will be gone and you will stay here ALONE in this cabin with no electricity.”

    It was an offer I couldn’t refuse.

    It is child abuse.

    1. Yes, you are right. When I was a kid, any time I was alone unexpectedly, I was afraid the Rapture had happened and that I had been left behind. That thought is really scary for a 7-year-old.

      LOVE that cursive typewriter font! Brings back memories of church bulletins 25 years ago.

      2. The font reminds me of the cursive typewriter my late grandmother always used to write letters to us. It wasn’t a Selectric, but it had a similar typeface.
        Yeah … I miss my grandma.

    2. The sad thing is, Jesus is already here, but the kind of bully who would say that to a child has no idea who Jesus is or what He intends.

  18. Whoa… my very first exposure to fundyism was CEF. Shortly after my conversion (I have no idea if it was genuine then or not.. doesn’t matter really) at 4 via CEF the whole family went fundy.

    Fast forward 13 years and my older brother is teaching a 5-Day Club in the hood. I went with him at least once. I remember asking them why they didn’t turn on the air conditioning and one of the little kids said they couldn’t afford it and I felt so bad.

  19. Haha!!! At first glance I thought that the title Referred to BJU poster boy Chad Gleisser 😯

  20. You have to totally spit on the doctrine of effectual calling to believe this mess. No my kids will not go to your stinkin’ Sunday School class sir!

    1. Dave – I completely and emphatically reject “effectual calling” as well as the rest of the points of Calvinism

      1. Greg,
        I am actually glad that you object to effectual calling, but what part of the phrase are you rejecting? Jesus said “No man can come unto me, except the Father draw him.” Any how do you know I was referring to Calvinism? Even some of the best Arminians believe the calling of Jesus without works. I am saying that Jesus calls men first without their works of decision making. God is the originator of any thought of coming to Him, not the decision maker for us. In the case with children, we show our disbelief in God by making their calling one of audible voice and not through the inward voice of the Holy Spirit.

        1. Dave – If you weren’t talking about irrestible grace/effectual calling, then you are right, I am and was completely out of line. But you go on to indicate that you follow the man-made system of belief, known as Calvinism, so I’m not sure how to answer. I reject all 5 points of Calvinism, because I don’t believe the bible teaches it, I know many here are Calvinists, which is fine, folks can believe anything they want.

          Very briefly, Romans 12:3 tells us that everyone has been given a measure of faith. Jesus said (John 12:32) “If I be lifted up I will draw all me unto me.” John 1:9 tells us that God gives light to every man. I can’t find in all of scripture where grace is irrestibly bestowed. However mountains of scripture showing that grace can be resisted. Proverbs 1:24-25 “I have called and you refused” Matthew 23:37 Jesus says “He longs to gather the children, but you were not willing.” John 5:40 Jesus says “Yet you refuse to come to me to have life” Oh thank God for His Grace, He gives us free will and draws every single man, woman boy and girl, and then as a loving God would, He forces no one to accept His free gift of salvation, allowing you and I to either accept or reject this wonderful gift. John 3:16 “That whosever (Greg waving hand, that’s me) believeth on Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

          I am not an arminian, just definitely not a calvinist.

    1. Oh, don’t get me started on that one. When I watch that video, I can not believe that parents actually abdicate the authority of their kids on to some stranger who wants to make Charismatic spiritual warfare commandos out of them.

        1. Why yes, yes, I do. And he doesn’t get told he’s bad, he’s a sinner, or he’s going to hell at school. The worst indoctrination he may get is that girls have cooties. I’m very proud of my public school, actually.

        2. Stony – I’m delighted that your school does so well. Overall public education in the U.S. is dismally disgraceful, and we continue to fall behind the rest of the world in nearly every measureable scholastic category.

          What I was mostly getting at with my comment to Dave, was not so much the deplorable condition that U.S. schools are in, which they absolutely are, but the “abdicating authority to complete strangers” line. I am constantly having to de-program my son from much of the feel-good, relativism he is fed daily in his government school and the outright lies.

          People should be aware and concerned with both, what is taught in Sunday School and what is fed to them in government schools. As for me I’m much more concerned about the latter.

        3. Parents need to be aware of every outside influence in their children’s lives and discern what is to be reinforced and what is to be rejected. No matter the institution be it government or church run.

        4. @Greg,

          Actually, my kids are being schooled at home. I don’t mean to be cult-like in any way, but I do not allow other people to teach my kids the Bible or any philosophy of life; I feel that’s my job as a parent. Not to condemn those who do send their kids to Sunday School or public school, but the point I would like to make is that as parent, you are the child’s protection in this life: in what they hear, believe, and do. 🙂

        5. Dave – I’m a big supporter of home-schooling, when it’s done right. I think Darrell and several others that comment here are products of home schooling. I have seen stats that demonstrate homeschoolers exceed on standardized tests and often do better than their peers in public/govt schools.

          Of course the flip side is pretty bad, when some of these uneducated fundies (attempt) to home-school and end up making all home-schoolers look bad.

          Let me add that your reasons for wanting to home-school seem completely legitimate to me.

  22. I’ve long had a big, big problem with the “Sinner’s Prayer” concept, whether it’s used on a child or an adult. It just seems so mechanical and manipulative. I’ve known a lot of people who have told me, “[My spouse] has prayed the Sinner’s Prayer. I know [he] doesn’t go to church, but [he] knows the Lord.” Right. And the person in question exhibits no change in behavior, no interest in anything spiritual, nothing that would lead anyone to believe he or she is a Christian except in name only. I can’t help but be cynical. 😕

    1. Elton John has this, “1-2-3 repeat after me,” BS pegged in his song Tiny Dancer
      “Jesus freaks out in the street
      Handing tickets out for God”

      The Sinner’s prayer: The road to Universalism, and everyone’s “get out of Hell Free” card.

    2. There’s something deeply flawed about the notion of salvation as an on-and-off switch. Or maybe just “on”; I’m not sure the people with this doctrine believe it can be turned off.
      Maybe it’s more like an innoculation: “Take this shot and you’ll never come down with damnation.”

      1. >>Maybe it’s more like an innoculation: “Take this shot and you’ll never come down with damnation.”

        EXACTLY. Well said, Gary!

    3. my kids are 5 and under. My husband and having a discussion now about the sinner’s prayer. Neither one of us really believe it is the magic words that make you saved anymore, but at the same time, shouldn’t I give my kids “that time they can look back on in their life and KNOW that they are saved”?

      1. I believe in teaching kids what Christ did and what it means to be a Christian and how to become one. And, then, let God take it from there.

        The Holy Spirit HAS to be the one who does the leading.

        1. THIS. I am writing a Sunday school handbook for our church because I can’t find one that addresses our specific issues (small class that nevertheless has a wide age range, parishioners from a huge variety of religious and cultural backgrounds, and tiny budget). I spend a page telling future teachers who may be IFB escapees what NOT TO DO. Don’t push for a decision for Christ, don’t scare the kids with Hellfire, don’t teach Rapture-abandonment . . . it all boils down to, “Let the Holy Spirit work in Her own good time.”

        2. I agree, Jenny.
          The best children’s Sunday School teachers I’ve known just tried to teach that God loves us, and that we are to love our neighbors as ourselves, and that was about it.

          I don’t mean that’s *all* they taught. They had crafts, games, Bible stories, songs, and so on. But the aforesaid is as deep as they got into theology and soteriology.

        3. @Natalie, if you are getting away from the Magic Prayer, then I’m stuck with just HOW does one become a Christian? My kids beleive in God, they’ve never considered not believing in God. How do they know they are saved?

          @Jenny, I’ve never heard of the Holy Spirit referred to as a Female, did you do that on purpose?

        4. Well, I believe that the answer can be simply found in Romans 10:9-10. Acknowledging to God that you believe in the Lord Jesus and what He did and why (to restore us to righteousness through the blood), then its as simple as that.

          And, that coincides with John 3:16. Remember, it simply says “that whosoever believeth in Him, shall have eternal life”. Notice, there was no additions to that verse and it ends with a period (punctuation is important).

          I believe that its a simple matter of belief and acknowledgment.

        6. Okay, just in case my comment sounded like the magic was in words, please let me make the point that I believe that its about believing mostly. Romans 10:9 says speaking with your mouth, and so I think there’s something to be said there. The thief on the cross acknowledged to Christ that he was Lord. In his statement, Jesus knew he believed who He was, and the thief had acknowledged that to Jesus, and that’s when Christ said that he would be with him that day in paradise.

          That’s another Biblical incident that makes me believe what I believe.

        7. @Escapee: Yes. The word for “spirit” or “breath” is grammatically feminine in Hebrew. I explain to my children early and often that God is not a boy or a girl either, but we say “God the Father” or “the Holy Spirit goes where She is needed” because boys and girls are like God. I refer to the passages in the first part of Genesis. I have read many accounts of women who left Christianity because they had it drummed into them endlessly that God is a man and women are just appendages.

      2. Richard Dawkins has it right on this subject. He says: Nobody would consider asking a kid if he is a Monetarist or a Supply-sider, so why do we think a kid can make a decision about Calvinism versus Arminianism? (Actually, Dawkins says Christianity, Budhism or Muslim.

        I say, just as with drinking, voting or joining the army, hold off until at least 18.

        1. @Jenny, Big Gary, Escapee,

          Agree with you. I think the Great Commission to a fundy is this: “Go ye into all the world and tell people a quick short story from the Bible, which leaves out the miracles, work, and testimony of Jesus found in the Gospels and skip over to the book of Romans, cut and paste some verses, especially the one’s that suit the most humanistic and selfish needs of man, totally pretending that the Reformation never happened and scoff at the ignorance of the Reformers and their contribution to the world. Then, tell people that the effectual call of the Holy Spirit can be originated from within themselves through prayer, so that the sinner can get his pie in the sky when he dies. The best way to bypass the calling of the Holy Spirit is that the person can pray faith into their heart, rather than God being the one who performs the spiritual CPR on the dead. It would be like Lazarus saying, “I can get God to raise me from the dead if I make the decision to do so.”

  23. So I turned on my computer and came to visit SFL this morning, and the first picture of that brochure above struck me as interesting, not only for all the reasons everyone else has already discussed, but for the fact that the “cursive font” in the title was used for every word except “YOU CHILDREN.” Taken from a Fundy perspective, that’s generally how I was spoken to, especially if I had violated some Great Commandment like “Thou shalt not listen to Casting Crowns or Steve Green in thy car.”

  24. Then you have Sons of Baptists like Phil Kidd and the rest of the “Scare the Hell out of ’em” pseudo preachers who manipulate, guilt, scare, strong-arm and doing whatever it takes to get a decision out of kids. Evil, pure Evil.

    There is a young man I know right now who according to his FB stats, just got saved again. And he will probably keep at it for a while, falter,”backslide”, go to another meeting with a manipulative false prophet standing on the pulpit screaming at everyone, a spirit will move on him and he’ll get saved again. *rinse and repeat*

    two-fold; four-fold; ten-fold children of hell who have heard and been forced into a false gospel, never hearing about the FINISHED work of Christ.

  25. Exactly. Simply because David believed it doesn’t make it so. Furthermore, he may have been referring to the burial site of his son, and not to Heaven.

    1. Richard – You are correct in saying that because David believed it, doesn’t make it so. It is because *God* said it that makes it so.

  26. The thing about child conversions is that you never know if they are real until they are an adult anyway. People can live large portions of their life thinking something without truly apprehending it for themselves. A child believes in Santa because you said so, but at some point there is testing period where most children find out that Santa never really existed.

    This is much the same way with Christianity. They’ll be more receptive to faith or God with extremely young indoctrination, but that didn’t mean they ever truly apprehended it internally. At some point a child grows up and must own Christianity. Hey may have believed it before then because someone told him it was so (like Santa) but at some point he must own it for his own. It must be internal. Until a child is of a proper age to do that you’re just waisting your time. And when is that age? Much older then most would think.

    2. For me, the proper age was somewhere in my 30s. I wasn’t really ready to own Christianity as a life path until then. I went to church, tried not to sin, and so forth, but it was only then that it all clicked for me.

  28. My 8 year old refuses to sleep in her own bed (she sleeps on the couch) because she believes there are monsters under there.

    so….um….yeah.

  29. It drives me literally CRAZY to hear fundy or just misinformed friends tell me that their 2 or 3 year old “prayed to get saved”. Really?!?! Really?!?! Your 3 year old completely understood Christ’s work on the cross? Your 3 year old knew EXACTLY what they were saying?

    Worse yet, often these same parents will continually tell their children as they grow up, “You prayed to get saved when you were 3, remember?” or have them “write the date in your KJV.”

    Then mom and dad have a heart-attack when Junior is 19 and has “rejected” Christianity. . .”But how can that be?!?! He prayed a prayer when he was 3!”

    1. As far as that goes, I don’t know if I “completely” comprehend Christ’s work on the cross!

      1. me neither!
        Mark 14:4 When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15 Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”

    2. My daughter was 3 weeks from her third birthday when she on her own came to me and said I need Jesus in my heart so I can go to Heaven. She knew her sin would take her to Hell she knew she had sinned she knew she wanted to be with Jesus and she knew she WANTED Jesus in her heart. I have never just told her she was okay she prayed a prayer in fact I question her often. At 7 years old she still remembers coming to me and wanting Jesus in her heart. She will argue if I try to say maybe she isnt saved. She KNOWS exactly what she decision she made that day.
      I know this isnt common at all but she also was talking at 6mos and talking in sentences at 9mos. She has an understanding I have never seen in any other child. She comes up with concepts that baffle me and I wonder where they come from. Her little mind is amazing.
      Im just saying it can happen. Do not discount all children and their understanding.

    4. have seen this many times.

      It leads to some weird theology too. Parents can’t believe that their child was not or is not saved because of that prayer and so they twist the gospel to avoid the painful truth that their child never was genuinely converted.

      And of course they believe that since they “raised up the child in the way he should go” (meaning fundy indoctrination instead of conversion) that eventually he will return to it.

      Not when everything you did demonstrated the powerlessness of the gospel and basically drove the child away from the truth

      1. I totally agree, captain. A former friend of mine had two kids with her ex-husband. They raised those kids in the church, but were pretty horrible parents. Her ex abused all of them, for one thing. Now those kids are grown and are pretty messed up and want nothing to do with the church; she keeps “claiming” that verse, however. She’s convinced that they are going to “return to the way they were trained up.” What she doesn’t realize is that they ALREADY ARE. You can’t sprinkle a little Christian magic over how those kids were raised. Unfortunately they are all reaping what has been sown, because God is not mocked.

    5. What does sin mean to a toddler?
      What does salvation mean to a toddler?
      It’s true that they have some kind of conept. What’s sad is to see adults whose understanding of those concepts seems not to have matured since age 3.

    6. This all reminds me of Sarah Palin’s resignation speech. She said that she had asked each of her five children if she should resign the office of Governor of Alaska, “… and I got four ‘yeses’ and one ‘hell, yes’.”
      Her youngest son, Trig, was one year old at the time. Even assuming that he had learned to say “yes” and “no” by that age (which is likely not the case), did she really ask a one-year-old for advice about her career and the future of the State of Alaska?
      I’m temted to comment further, but I won’t.

      2. I’ll take it from here BG….
        Nothing that comes out of her mouth is a shock anymore.
        But she is nice to look at.
        And now I will stop lest I’m tempted to comment further :mrgreen:

        1. I am delighted that Ms Palin is an unashamed christian woman, I count her as my sister in the faith of Jesus Christ. I appreciate her many contributions and look fwd to what my God may have in store for this fine mother and follower of His.

  31. amilyn – I hear you loud and clear. I am constantly amazed at the spiritual principles that little children can grasp, I never discount what they can understand. I too, called upon the Lord at a very young age, about 6 or 7, I was at my home and felt a huge stirring and desire to receive the Lord, I yelled for my mother and she came into my bedroom and there I called upon the Lord for salvation, and He wondrously saved me, just as the entire new testament teaches. My son, now 16 called on the Lord to save him at around 5 yrs old, now my daughter, she did as many have described here, got “saved” multiple times. Each person is different. I’m reminded of James Dobson of Focus on the Family’s ministry, he has told his testimony of receiving Jesus as his Saviour when he was 3 yrs old, and what a tremendous ministry he has had. It is somewhat of a mystery how God moves on peoples hearts, and I don’t propose to have all the answers, but I can tell you our Lord will absolutely save a child, no doubt whatsoever. I am reminded what Jesus said “Allow the little children to come to me.”

    1. I was one of those kids who “got saved” multiple times. I always cited the first time (age 6) as the time I was saved, but deep down inside I didn’t believe it, because I knew that I didn’t know what I was doing at the time. (Not an age thing, just a me thing.) Years later I realized the problem was that people were putting too much emphasis on my work of getting saved (I had to believe with my whole heart, repent fervently, etc.), and I was constantly worred that I hadn’t believed hard enough or prayed with enough passion or whatever. The problem didn’t go away until I was nearly an adult and finally grasped that I was saved because of the work of Christ, and not because of my own actions.

      1. Donna – There is at least one “action” we need “to do” for salvation, and that is “call” “For whosovever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

  32. I remember using these materials for child evangelism classes at PCC. Not that I’ve yet sorted it out, but I’m thinking the key is to let the children “come” to Jesus, not to us as parents or authority figures. I think it’s important to throughly teach children WHO Jesus is and what He did for us rather than trying to cover all the basis and check boxes. To make an authentic decision, one needs to know what he’s deciding for or against. Just my .02. And I’m speaking as one that converted at an early age and had to seek re-assurance later in life.

  33. Amilyn and Greg, I’m with you. The Lord introduced me to his grace at 8 at a church camp. The same camp at which my “counselor” described, graphicaly, the fine art of fondeling a female. He also did wonderfull chalk paintings of Jesus from the platform, haleluja! In spite of that and getting “saved” about a couple of times every month thereafter I know that I was genuinely saved once and for all that first time. My oldest daughter realized God’s grace at 5, and though,as can be expected, there have been times of doubt to those watching her, there is no doubt in her mind that it was fact. On the other hand, I left Charismatic circles when I took my three girls to midweek and they came out with certificates stating “_____ has been filled with the Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in Tongues According to Acts _____ and witnessed by ______” I would react the same way if any of my 12 grandchildren presented me with a certificate of salvation.

    1. tlorz – I agree with most of your comment, I’m not too sure how the “fondling a female” fits into it, but I digress.

      I think it’s natural for anyone to question their salvation status occasionally.

      What I am finding interesting, is that it appears that some here don’t seem to want to give the little ones the salvation message at all. I don’t think you should try to manipulate or coerce the child to get saved, as I know does go on in many fundy circles, but I would never deny the life-giving message of the gospel to the children. The salvation message is for every living person upon this planet, and I would never deny that to a child. “Whosoever calls upon the Lord, shall be saved.”

      1. Greg- The fondling thing was just to show the hypocracy of some of those who the Lord used to reach me. You make a good point of the tendancy to throw the baby, or child, out with the bathwater.

  34. I accepted Jesus into my heart when I was 5 at VBS, but it wasn’t at a fundie church. So for me, I don’t think that this is solely an IFB problem, but rather extends to any sort of religious group that places an emphasis on a personal relationship with your particular deity of choice.

  35. I had nightmares for almost twenty years about being left at the Rapture because of the trauma inflicted on me as a child by traveling evangelist teams.

  36. Big Gary – So Sarah Palin’s resignation speech has something to do with CEF’s ministry to children?

    1. Not really– I was just reminded of it by the discussion about the cognitive abilities of very small children.

      1. And most of Sarah’s decision making and speechifying seems to come from the cognitive abilities of very young children.

        4. dianchenko – Hey Mom make him stop it, Stop what? Greg is about to defecate in the cornflakes again!

          Ok, Here it is, most of us are having a good ol time busting on fundy’s again, some serious comments some fun comments.

          Way up thread Don quotes the homosexual pervert Elton John, now I want to jump him for it but I don’t, let’s all be nice, right? Well, as time goes on, Big Gary decides to inject Sarah Palin into the conversation for what I consider to be specious reasons, and is then joined in the fray by you.

          Is it me? Why would Don’s comment by a pervert not elicit one response, but Big Gary (who claims christianity) want to hate on Ms Palin in the first place, and then be readily joined by you. Kinda makes you say Hmmmmmm.

        5. Well speaking for myself, as a homosexual pervert (in your words) myself, I’m hardly going to attack a quoting of Elton John, who I admire. I have no problem ragging on Sarah Palin though, who, if she is a Christian, gives them all a bad name. To me, her biggest problem is that she’s a quitter who’s more interested in making a buck than truly serving as she was elected to do. I think she’s a hypocrite and a fraud.

        6. greg – stop with your bigotry. Elton John is a talented songwriter and performer. He is also gay. So what. Don’t listen to him.

          Sarah Palin is as dumb as a bag of rocks and she could have been one breath away from being president. She had no qualifications to be vice-president other than being eye candy that would balance out the older looking McCain. She has brought nothing to the public forum other than being used as mindless filler on Fox News.

        7. Dang, my point wasn’t about who said it but what was said. Contemporary culture is more intune to the Christian subculture than the average Christian is. Tiny Dancer is one example. She’s Come Undone by Guess Who is another where the lyrics say, “Too many churches and not enough Truth.”
          There is truth and beauty all around the Christian Hunker-in-the-Bunker sub-culture but many refuse to see it because of the genetic fallacy. “Well, that dirty ol’ so-n-so said that so I have to reject it because he/she/it is on my separation list.”
          Hey, I sing along with Sir John sometimes, I also sing along with Johnny Cash, The four lads from Liverpool, Amy Winehouse and even the Gaither’s on occasion. There is much truth in song and sometimes I even dance (not well) but I may be loving life at the moment and that’s ok too. 😎

        8. Scorpio – I really don’t appreciate you being so bigoted about my bigotry.

          Never ceases to amaze me that the folks that yell the loudest about tolerance are usually the most intolerant of all.

          May I please have my opinion about the perveresness of Elton John, which if anybody here cares, is in agreement with the God of this universe, which He details in much depth, in His best-seller of all time, the bible.

          Admit it, you’re just jealous of Ms Palin because her IQ is at least twice what yours is.

        9. Greg, you knew this was gonna happen when you called Elton John a pervert. Why are you acting so hurt over it? Nobody’s stopping you from posting your hateful opinion. That WOULD be intolerant. It’s not intolerant to tell you that we don’t agree with you.

          The belittling personal attack is a nice touch. You don’t have anything of real substance to say, all you have is dubious interpretation of six verses and a whole lot of personal prejudice.

          Hugs, Faith

        11. Scorpio is jealous of Sarah Palin’s IQ?? Ha, that’s a laugh. Palin should be jealous of a paperweight’s IQ. I’ve read many of Scorpio’s postings on this sight. Scorpio is top-notch.
          And Don, I think it was obvious to most of us that you were more interested in the content of the Elton John song, than the fact that he wrote/sang it.
          Greg: The fact that Scorpio called out what he (and I) see as bigotry is not intolerant. Intolerance would be to ask Darrell to ban you from the site for saying such things. Nor do I view the fact that you wrote something I disagree with as intolerance. I think it reflects your intolerance, but you have the right to say what you believe. Just know that some of us vehemently disagree with you and will voice it.

        12. @Faith – I’m not hurt, christians all over the globe have been and are experiencing this type of intolerance for standing up for Godly principles.

          If you think my (so-called) hateful opinion is bad, it matches that of our Lord’s, as a matter of fact God speaks much more harshly about this wickedness than I do. Obviously I disagree with your opinion of intolerance. You may want to go back and count (anti-homosexual) verses again.

          @diachenko – Clearly you and Scorpio are intolerant of my Judeo/Christian values. I can take the intolerance, that’s fine, what I don’t like is you guys denying that it is in fact intolerance.

          I would have thought by now I would have been called a “homophobe”

          I don’t want to leave w/out offering the grace of God to everyone, God is a loving God and will forgive any one’s sin, regardless of the nature of that sin.

        13. greg – I guess you really don’t understand what intolerance means, or you choose to ignore its meaning. We just don’t agree on an issue, that is not intolerance, that is a disagreement, a differing of opinions.

          The Bible also speaks against eating shellfish, wearing mixed fabrics etc etc etc. Are you as dogmatic about those verses in the bible as you are about homosexuality? It’s probably easier to hate on the perverted homosexuals than it is to avoid Red Lobster or stay away from the wool blend shirt rack at JC Penney.

        14. Scorpio – Of course you are wrong again. Webster’s Dictionary (you’re making me sound like a fundy preacher here) defines “intolerance” 1) The quality or state of being intolerant, a synonym for intolerance is opinionatedness. Once again, you are wrong.

          The shellfish, mixed clothing strawman is getting boring as well. I suppose bestiality is ok, according to your logic. The 613 laws of the OT were for the Jews under the Law. As far as the wickedness which is homosexuality, there are pages of new testament scripture, so it won’t fly.

          Btw let me recommend a book to you, it’s a few years old now. “The New Tolerance” by Josh McDowell.

          Yes, I happen to know something about intolerance.

  37. They left out the line about Christianity being “one generation away from extinction” if we fail to get ’em young. Because, you know, it’s all up to us.

    1. Everything is always one generation away from extinction. So what?

      But if the argument is that mostly just children whose critical thinking ability is undeveloped can accept Jesus, and that reasoning adults usually won’t fall for such a thing, they’re confessing something rather revealing about their version of Christianity, don’t you think?

    2. A very open public forum with multiple viewpoints probably isn’t the best place to call homosexuals perverts. It lacks a bit of tact. One certainly is free to believe and express that sentiment if that’s how they feel. It just probably could’ve been communicated better.

      On the other hand, why does everyone, when someone doesn’t like the other persons’ moral stand have to trot out the word “hate”? It’s so overdone and so often not applicable. A person can not like homosexuality, pizza, or the color blue but that doesn’t mean they hate any of these things/people.

      People get all butthurt too easily.

      2. don123 – It’s a script, it’s a liberal script. If you don’t like President Obama and say so, you’re a racist, if you speak against the abomination of homosexuality you’re a hater, it’s a script!

        What I find odd is that most of us that comment here are recovering “fundies” Folks, many like myself, are still very much christian and identify with christian morals. I am, for some reason, not supposed to speak against this wickedness of homosexuality, just because I escaped the man-made rules of legalistic IFBism, I didn’t for a minute throw out God and the Bible and Godly principles.

        I go against the grain here fairly often, but this is the one topic, that there is no gray, many things are not necessarily clear in the scripture, however, the evil which is homosexuality, is especially clear. It may be the one thing that the fundies get right.

        Let me finish by saying that no one should be trying to hate on anyone, homosexual or otherwise, it is simply not “christian” but to stick our heads in the sand and not call this wickedness what it is, is not loving or kind or christian.

        1. Greg, would you do me a favor? I realize you’re a conservative, and I respect that. But, it really bothers me when you use liberal as a derogatory word. I understand that you don’t agree with my politics, and that truly is fine, but to use “liberal” as an insult is hurtful, especially when I’m doing my best to respect conservatives.

        2. That’s right, Greg, love the gay right out them. 🙄

          Where did Jesus say “Go and condemn the world”? No, he said “Go and proclaim the Kingdom of God.” The good news is what we are to be spreading, not “God hates fags.” 😥 And yeah, I know you didn’t use exactly those words, but that is the message you give out in your tone and attitude on this issue.

        3. Faith – I thought I would respond back and be as nasty as you but I realize I don’t want to stoop to that level. Anyone that has followed this thread knows that I’m not the person you are trying to portray me as.

          You are grasping at straws to justify your lifestyle, believe me I am not your enemy.

        4. Love the comment about my “lifestyle.” You know nothing about my life. My lifestyle is the same as any other working class thirtysomething single Christian woman. It’s an ordinary life that doesn’t require any special justification. Did you expect a heroin addicted porn star?

          Everyone knows exactly what you are. I’m not going to call you a homophobe, but you certainly use homophobic language. You’re still a fundamentalist, albeit not an IFB’er. Your comments about homosexuals are always mean-spirited and full of spite and condemnation.

        5. oooOOO K, guess I have to jump in.

          First Natalie, It IS the liberal playbook to scream “HATE” at anyone who disagrees with them. How often do you hear hate yelled by conservatives in spite of the obvious passionate hate for Sarah Palin in the above thread and for George Bush everywhere.

          Faith, This comes from a guy with a gay brother and two other gays (one of them my brother’s partner of close to 18years) that I care for dearly. I am not ignorant of your “lifestyle”. My views are known to these dear friends and we have come to a place of peacefull coexistence. Homosexuality is clearly called sin in both testaments. It is no better and no worse than adultry, lying, murder, hatred, denying God, or the fundie favorites legalism and gluttony. It is my view that the visceral reaction from the gay community to anything that does not treat them as not only normal but admirable, stems from the conscience that constantly convicts them of truth which they, with help from the enemy of thier souls, have systematicly seared. Any reminder of the truth which they cannot escape is painfully intollerable.
          Don’t shoot the messenger.

        6. tlorz, please don’t stereotype. True, there are liberals who go on media and use the “hate” word, but they don’t represent all liberals. They’re just loud and it looks like they represent the majority.

        7. Natalie, I wasn’t stereotypeing I was speaking from personal experiance. Obviously not ALL liberals are like that but the vast majority are. I am constantly confronted by them while interacting with my more rational and moderate Liberal friends. You appear to be of that sort but I can guarentee you that if I were to engage in debate on political or moral debate on your forum or facebook (Please don’t interpret that as a request) the attacks would be viscious and unrelenting on my character. I do not hate either those in sin or those who dissagree with me politicaly. In sin because I am foremost a sinner, politicaly because I enjoy debate and having my presuppositions challenged. It is extreemely pleasurable to find people who hold views other than mine who are willing to genuinely consider each view, they are exceedingly rare.

        8. tlorz–
          I didn’t say I hate Sarah Palin, nor did I call her any bad names. I just said that she claimed to have consulted with a one-year-old infant about her future and that of Alaska. That she said this is a matter of public record. You can watch her saying it on YouTube, if you so desire.

        9. tlorz – You’re assuming that I have a forum or Facebook and hang out with liberals. You’re wrong. Outside of HF, my friends are conservative, I don’t have a FB page, and am not on any liberal forums.

          Please don’t lump me into a group. I am an individual.

        10. tlorz – Thanks for the kind and very knowledgeable comments.

          I don’t share alot of personal things here, but I also have acquaintances, friends and family members who are gay. We also have an “understanding” and co-exist nicely. I have a beloved cousin who died of Aids in the 80’s.

          When you spoke about the homosexuals “conscience which constantly convicts them” I have said this for years, in fact I think this is the primary reason why there are so many suicides in the homosexual community. I believe that when that gay person lays down at night, in their heart of hearts they “know” that what they are doing is wrong and sinful. Many that have come out of this life admit this.

          As soon as you speak out about this wickedness, political correctness demands that you be labelled a “hater” when nothing could be further from the truth.

          Please come to the Saviour before your soul is completely seared.

        11. Ok Natalie, Guilty as charged. I have been scewered by my assumptions in your case. I will do 5 hail marys and walk one mile on my knees…. Forgive me?? 🙂

        12. A couple of thoughts:

          Have you considered that the reason gay folks get a little defensive could be because for years they’ve been discriminated against and denied their rights?

          And I think it’s more likely that the higher suicide rate stems from people experiencing a lack of acceptance from family, co-workers, and churches. People like you are part of the suicide problem. 🙁

        14. The book I recommended “The New Tolerance” would be very beneficial for many that comment here.

          I don’t “accept” or support any wicked anti-God, immoral lifestyles of any kind be they homosexual or otherwise. I said that I co-exist with those in my sphere of influence that are homosexuals, I tolerate them. That is what the book gets into, because I tolerate them and can love them, in no way shape or form means that I am accepting of their evil lifestyle choices. I have a close family member that went to prison for killing someone, do I still love him, sure – am I accepting and supportive of his deciding to shoot someone? Don’t think so. My daughter was living with her boyfriend for a time, did I accept and support this decision, absolutely not, do I love my daughter? What do you think.

          “People like you are part of the suicide problem”

          I don’t think I will take any responsiblity for anyone’s personal choice to live this lifestyle, that has such a high suicide rate. There is a reason for it and it is spiritual. If anyone will open their mind and read Romans 1, the God of this universe expounds on this very problem.

        15. I love how you draw an equivalency between murder and being gay. That kind of thing is exactly what causes gay people to kill themselves. You can’t say you love gay people and ignore the consequences of your attitude and actions. I’m sure the gay people you tolerate love being around you. 🙄

        16. I must say this is getting tiresome. I feel like a 2nd grade teacher.

          I am not equating murder to homosexuality. I gave (2) very personal examples of people, that I love, who made lifestyle choices that I rigorously disagree with, that is all, please don’t distort what I am saying.

          Faith – I am not your enemy, in fact, I may be your best friend. Please quit trying to “wiggle” out of your reality. It’s fine if you disagree with me, own your position and don’t try to twist my words please.

        17. You telling me you are my best friend reminds me of a man I met last summer, he wouldn’t tell me his name so I’ll call him Joe. It was at Pride fest at Centre Park in Reading, PA and I was there with other members of my church, our choir (I’m in it) was singing and I volunteered to staff our booth for a while. It was a sunny day, 93 and very humid as it often is, so I had brought my big rolling cooler filled with bottled water. Joe was outside with a big sign and an old-fashioned megaphone and he was walking around the park (it’s not very big) and saying many of the same things that have been said in this thread by you and others. Our booth was near the edge of the park and when I saw Joe he was by our part of the temporary fence (you have to pay a nominal charge to get in, the protesters won’t pay for entry). I saw him out there, his shirt soaked, sweat pouring off his head. I didn’t even think about it, I just reached in the cooler for a water bottle and headed for the fence. Silent Witness (a group that shields queer folks from protesters by silently holding rainbow umbrellas in front of them) stepped aside as I held out the bottle of water. “Here, you must be thirsty.” Joe stopped yelling and looked at me like I had three heads. “I’m not thirsty” he said. I said “It’s really hot and you’re losing a lot of water. Please take the water.” Joe said “I won’t take anything from you, I don’t trust you.” “Look, the bottle is sealed. Please take it. I love you.” Joe began saying many unpleasant things to me. I held out the water and said “I love you, take the water.” “You’re gender confused!” he yelled. “No, I’m a woman. I love you, take the water.” “You’re an abomination!” “I love you. You must be thirsty, take the water.” “I’m the only friend you have because I’m telling you God’s truth.” “I love you, take the water.” Joe stopped yelling and walked across the street.

          He was back about an hour later. Same drill. I talked, he yelled accusations and judgment. He shut up and crossed the street.

          Third time. Silent Witness grinned as I headed for the fence with another bottle. Joe was determined this time. He hollered abuse. “I love you, here’s some water.” Condemnation. “I love you, please take the water. It’s hot out here and I’m worried about you.” Judgment. “I love you. Take the water.” Joe walked across the street. He didn’t come back again.

          Greg, I love you. Take the water.

        18. You telling me you are my best friend reminds me of a man I met last summer, he wouldn’t tell me his name so I’ll call him Joe. It was at Pride fest at Centre Park in Reading, PA and I was there with other members of my church, our choir (I’m in it) was singing and I volunteered to staff our booth for a while. It was a sunny day, 93 and very humid as it often is, so I had brought my big rolling cooler filled with bottled water. Joe was outside with a big sign and an old-fashioned megaphone and he was walking around the park (it’s not very big) and saying many of the same things that have been said in this thread by you and others. Our booth was near the edge of the park and when I saw Joe he was by our part of the temporary fence (you have to pay a nominal charge to get in, the protesters won’t pay for entry). I saw him out there, his shirt soaked, sweat pouring off his head. I didn’t even think about it, I just reached in the cooler for a water bottle and headed for the fence. Silent Witness (a group that shields queer folks from protesters by silently holding rainbow umbrellas in front of them) stepped aside as I held out the bottle of water. “Here, you must be thirsty.” Joe stopped yelling and looked at me like I had three heads. “I’m not thirsty” he said. I said “It’s really hot and you’re losing a lot of water. Please take the water.” Joe said “I won’t take anything from you, I don’t trust you.” “Look, the bottle is sealed. Please take it. I love you.” Joe began saying many unpleasant things to me. I held out the water and said “I love you, take the water.” “You’re gender confused!” he yelled. “No, I’m a woman. I love you, take the water.” “You’re an abomination!” “I love you. You must be thirsty, take the water.” “I’m the only friend you have because I’m telling you God’s truth.” “I love you, take the water.” Joe stopped yelling and walked across the street.

          He was back about an hour later. Same drill. I talked, he yelled accusations and judgment. He shut up and crossed the street.

          Third time. Silent Witness grinned as I headed for the fence with another bottle. Joe was determined this time. He hollered abuse. “I love you, here’s some water.” Condemnation. “I love you, please take the water. It’s hot out here and I’m worried about you.” Judgment. “I love you. Take the water.” Joe walked across the street. He didn’t come back again.

          Greg, I love you. Take the water.

          Like it or not, you and people who believe like you are responsible for the protesters like Joe and the Westboro Baptist crowd. The attitude you display makes the world safe for the anti-gay protesters. You won’t go as far as they do, because people would think you are as crazy as them, but you agree with their basic premise. Until we as Christians change the way we view homosexuality, kids are going to keep killing themselves rather than tell their parents they are gay. The wave of condemnation that queer folks get from church is made up of millions of little drops, and when you call people “homosexual perverts” you are a tiny part of that wave.

          Greg, I love you. Take the water.

        19. Faith, thanks for the water. I love you. I also lov emy daughter who set out to win a married man, distroyed a family, and lives a life in defiance of God while using religeous talk to make things right. Truth is truth, sin is sin, the inevitable end of sin is death. Thanks for the water though.

        20. Faith – This is a very nice story, however it does not apply to our situation at all. I would never be yelling at you with a megaphone. I would gladly take your offer of water, can you also take my loving message of truth?

        21. Greg, leaving aside that this site isn’t really a place for you to preach at us about what you see as our wrong “choices,” it’s really hard to see you as loving or truly interested in our well-being since you insist on throwing around terms like “pervert” and “abomination.” We’ve heard those things from a lot of other people for a long time. We’re not part of this site to be berated even more.
          Also, I find it interesting that you would presume to know what is in my conscience and what I think. I suppose it helps your worldview to assume that all GLBT people are consumed by feelings of shame and guilt and misery in our heart of hearts. But truthfully, for me I only felt those things for the 28 years that I tried to choose heterosexuality. Now, I only know peace and contentment and knowledge that I am exactly as I was intended to be. And from reading Faith’s posts on several different threads, I know that she is perfectly content and at peace with herself as well. I’m sorry if well adjusted GLBT people don’t fit into your system. But facts and personal experience can be inconvenient things.

        22. Diachenko – I could be wrong, but nor is this site a place for you to “convince” me that your lifestyle “choices” are ok and legitimate in light of God’s Word. The terms that I generally use to describe your choice of lifestyle come straight from the Creator of this planets manual (the bible) No one here ever forces anyone to believe that manual, but the vast majority of those that post here believe the bible to be God’s Word. Can that Word be interpreted differently? Absolutely. But I submit to you, as far as the sin of homosexuality is concerned, and what God thinks about it, there is not a scintilla of ambiguity.

          If you guys are so well-adjusted why is it that all you can discuss or talk about is your sexuality. Do you hear me constantyly talking about my heterosexualness ad nauseum? I’m speaking hear more of Faith than you, that is the only song she’s got! I’m not as nice as others here, but I can tell you I’m tired of it. If she doesn’t want to have problems and get confronted tone it down some. For instance I don’t wake up in the morning and say to myself, I’m a white, heterosexual male, I must go out into the world today and constantly declare this to every one I meet, if anyone disagrees with my lifestyle choices I must attack them and set them straight, they must not only tolerate my w/m hetersexuality they must condone and support it. This appears to be what Faith does, and as an armchair psychologist I don’t think it is healthy.

          I don’t want to lie here, but I think in all of my skirmishes with Faith, I have only initiated one. I am frankly tired of dealing with her, and actually decided not to debate with her anymore once I found out that she didn’t believe in the “whole” word of God. I got pulled back into it with her and wish now that I hadn’t.

          Tlorz said it better that I could. “Truth is truth, sin is sin, the inevitable end of sin is death.”

          Btw, as I write this, I hope it doesn’t sound like I have arrived, or that I am Holy Spirit junior, I am and have been a very sinful man, I have done things that I would never admit to on any public forum, AHHHH, but thank God I serve a magnificient Saviour, and all I hope to do here is to point folks to Him.

  38. On pre-teen salvations, the proof is in the puddin’. At 27 my daughter has me convinced but no IFB would concur

  39. I first read “The Prophet” three years ago. This passage is my favorite.

    “Your children are not your children.
    They are the sons and daughters of Life’s longing for itself.
    They come through you but not from you,
    And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
    ❗ You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
    …For they have their own thoughts. ❗
    You may house their bodies but not their souls,
    For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit,
    not even in your dreams.
    You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
    For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
    You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
    The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you
    with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.
    Let your bending in the archer’s hand be for gladness;
    For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that
    is stable.”
    Kahlil Gibran

  40. I can’t believe how many of you ex fundy’s still believe in the magic prayer. Getting “saved” isn’t even in the Bible. Cannot stand the pre saved/post saved mentality either. My mom was “saved” years after we were born. She looked at all those bday parties, our births, ballet recitals, Christmases together as nothing more than part of her past sinful life. Its a mental illness.

    1. All this is sick. “You’re IN, you’re OUT.” Life, its a clique! I may need to take a break.

    2. As I said before, I can’t see salvation as an on/off binary function.
      As a Wesleyan, I believe that God’s grace is prevenient– it’s here even before you ask for it. Sanctification through faith (Wesley called it being “made perfect in Love”), on the other hand, is an ongoing, lifelong process.

      1. Agree on Wesley… Wish all the current Calvinists would re look at Wesley Powerful teachings that ring more true in my opinion than the current crop of quasi Calvinists…

    3. “Being Saved” is not in the bible because it is a result not the thing its self. Bieng “born of the Spirit” is and “except a man be born again…” also is. As to “on or off” bianary cliques, you are either born or you are not. You are either alive or you are dead. Physically this is easily seen, spiritually only your savior, and you know(s) for sure. That which is born of the spirit is spirit. Where IFB and the rest of the organised religeons fail is that they seek to force the unborn into acting like they are alive. They are so good at it that many dead think they are alive.

  41. I would never suggest that children shouldn’t be evangelized. That’s what Sunday school and VBS are largely about. But the message should begin with the LOVE of God, not the wrath of God. Little kids can’t think abstractly until they’re at least ten, and they have no real concept of sin. They do understand love, though; they understand simple morality and, to some degree, ethics; they can understand what it means to follow Jesus, to love Him and to love others. The rest will fall into place in time.

  42. SIgh, I loved CEF, still do but they don’t seem to have stayed current with the times.
    My husband is a children’s pastor. Back when we were still fundy we would get as many kids saved as we could and proudly tell the parents who picked up their kids after Jr church that their child just got saved. Isn’t that exciting.
    Now that I am older, wiser, have kids of my own, not a fundie anymore I look back and think, the audacity I had! How dare I have a child make a life changing decision without consulting or at least bringing a parent in on the conversation before the conversion! Now we don’t do “alter calls” in kids church any more. If a kid says he wants to get saved or has questions, we tell them we will talk to their parents. I would HATE it if my child made a decision about Christ and I wasn’t there for it, but some overzealous worker snatched that joy from me!

  44. Okay, just in case my comment sounded like the magic was in words, please let me make the point that I believe that its about believing mostly. Romans 10:9 says speaking with your mouth, and so I think there’s something to be said there. The thief on the cross acknowledged to Christ that he was Lord. In his statement, Jesus knew he believed who He was, and the thief had acknowledged that to Jesus, and that’s when Christ said that he would be with him that day in paradise.

    That’s another Biblical incident that makes me believe what I believe.

    1. Please scroll up and see this comment in context. The blog is being ornery and not posting things where I want it. 😉

  45. The three candles at the bottom are just screaming for a demotivational poster.

    Something like:
    Getting Em’ Young: More life to burn up for Fundyland

    In fact, demotivationals are all that come to mind when I read this.

    Child Evangelism: The fields are white unto easy believism

    Manipulation: When the Spirit just isn’t moving fast enough

    Numbers: The more prayers, the more crowns

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